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View Full Version : For Honor has so much potential, but...



Rowduk
01-31-2017, 04:23 AM
After 30-40 hours on the closed beta for For Honor I’d like to lay down my thoughts on the game's current state, where I feel it shines and where it will need some improvement. These are my own personal thoughts, were I think the game is lacking and where improvements are needed. TL:DR at the bottom with a point form list.


During this I will mention “New players” but keep in mind most of us have only had a few days with the beta, so WE ARE ALL NEWish PLAYERS. That said, when I say new players I’m talking of people who just picked up the game.

To start, I’d like to say what a fun time I had with all 3 game modes, seriously, 1v1 mode was the best way to learn a hero and I didn’t mind getting my *** kicked from time to time because it really helped my find techniques to counter each class in the game. 2v2, was so fun, having a teammate who could pull a clutch win when you made a silly mistake, or saving a teammate in a moment of need. Or hell even taking on 2 baddies at once. That was great. The 4v4 dom was probably my favorite because it led to the most unpredictable moments. My favorite was when my team broke, with my Raider I was up against 2 baddies, then 3, killed one, then the 4th came. I held out on the point and managed to kill 3 of them with revenge mode and the other ran. My friends over headset were losing their damn minds… in the end we lost.. But still, I felt like a badass and I know the baddies on the other team were shtting a brick when I came running at them next round. Great stuff.

During combat, the game plays more akin to a fighting game, than a typical adventure game. The combat revolves around some familiar fighting genre terms: “footsies”, blocks, dodging, grabs, combos, “teching”, baiting, heavy attacks, light attacks and most importantly, mind games. I feel a lot of people going into the game are looking for a mix of souls style pvp, and batman arkham knight. It does have some things in common with there's adventure games, but it is much closer to a fighting game than I feel people realise.

Overall the game is very fun. I want that to be very clear as I go on. I like the game and only have critique because I want it to do well. I’m going to break down the game by topics and give my thoughts on it.


THE TUTORIAL

The game starts out with a quick tutorial giving you the basics, that’s all fine and dandy but there definitely is a lack of guiding a new player to the “advance training” and the “how to fight” videos for their desired class. The tutorial videos do a good job of teaching you what your class can do, sadly it’s not the same as performing the combos yourself. Also the videos do not tell you anything on how to counter the class you’re looking at. I know if I was having difficulty with a certain class, I watched the video, played the hero in AI, then vs people to about level 5 to really figured them out, but it would of been really nice to have a part in the video to say “If this hero is giving you trouble watch out for this, it can be easily stopped by doing this”. For example, the Orochi’s dash was VERY easy to beat. When he jumps back his blade will be either on his left or right side. That’s the side his attack is coming from, just block in that direction and hover your finger over the guard break button just incase he cancels the run into the guard break. Or walk backwards so you are out of his range. I saw a lot of Orochis spamming that move, so I assume people are getting hit by that move often.



A.I. [BOTS and the funny names]

The AI programmers need to be recognized big time. Yes there was the odd issue where they just stood still for a few seconds if you got far enough away, but overall amazing work. Those lvl 3 BOTS were strong, better than most players. Also I loved the funny names, my favorite was the Zerker “MyAXEyourFace”. That bot was my favorite.



PICKING A CLASS

So after the tutorial you get presented with all the classes, in the closed beta we had 9 to pick from, each being from one of the four roles, Vanguard, Heavy, Hybrid and Assassins. Each class has a few words to describe it like for the Kensi “Long range - Balanced”, or for the Warlord “Harasser, Counter attack”. Sadly this doesn’t describe the roles they will be playing very well, so don’t use them as a be all end all rule. Some heros won’t have counter attack listed but there is a focus on it. Others won’t mention they have a brutal unblockable headbut that ends up being the entire focus of their kit. I feel changing one of the descriptors to reflect their main way to gain renown, would be better as it helps new palyers gain an understanding of the role they should be playing while in dominion. Raider - Strong Grab focused and Preference outnumbered fights. Warlord - Counter Focused and Assists teammates. Berserker - Continuous Onslaught of blows and prefers one vs ones. etc. Once you’ve tried all the heros, the descriptors become white noise, they don’t matter, so they should be used for helping new players.




GEARING UP

So after a round you get a chance at new loot, cool, a new look. If you only play 1v1 or 2v2 then the stats have no impact on your gameplay. Just looks. However if you are doing the 4v4 Dominion game mode gear stats do come into play. One thing that I didn’t clue into until the end of the Beta was that if you stick with one hero, and level them up to 20, you start getting blue gear drops from the “500 packs” instead of just the regular “common” ones. I assumed going “prestige” was just for the new looks, and “feats” so I jumped around, leveling quite a few heroes to 10-15, once I felt I really understood them I’ve moved on to the next one. Once you hit prestige lvl 3+ you get purple drops. The gear itself doesn’t have too much information to go on. Some stats on the gear were easy to understand attack means more attack, exhausting regeneration etc. but block defence (I’m already blocking what would gearing this up ever do)? Took me a bit to realize that block defence was for when you guard vs heavy attacks you still take a bit of damage. Some more information about these stats would be appreciated.





GEAR STAT BALANCE

Overall the gear is a bit a problem, namely: having stats for building revenge meter quicker while defending ment that was the best way to play. You could get your meter full in 3-4 blocks when outnumbered and It made fights more about baiting out the other person's revenge meter than beating them in a duel. Not as fun.

Also, let’s be clear here. Having gear with stats pulls the game away from being a purely skill based game like a fighter or moba into a strange mix of skill and how good your gear is. This is a horrible direction for the game and also where my love for competitive games starts to become clear. Losing because someone else has mastered the same character or a different one is fine, hell it means you have room for improvement. But losing because they have gear lvl 40+ specced to gain revenge meter quickly and you don’t because you have lvl 10 gear is not. That’s how MMORPGs play, and the majority of MMO’s equalize gear during competitive PVP. There is a reason for it, namely it kills the competitive scene.



GAME MODE: DOMINION

It needs to be said that this game mode, although fun, wilding misses the mark and ultimately doesn’t do what I feel the game needs. Unlike 1v1 and 2v2 gear stats are a huge part of the dominion gameplay, mainly revenge meter building. Gear should not have any stats, it ruins the fully focused skill based game. Instead of it’s current iteration, it should be designed like a Moba where you level up and pick a feat as the game goes one. Feats themselves should help heros build to counter or improve 1v1s, taking objectives, defending etc. I should be clear, I like the current way to level up in a round (renown), it allows some guidance for players on what they should be doing during a round (holding points, seeking out 1v1s, helping buddies etc). But picking feats before the fight is clunky, it does not allow any counter play to happen with feats. Also I’d like to say I think GEAR should be reworked. Either to have feats attached to them instead of skills. Better gear (blue/purple) can have 2-3 skills allowing you to mix and match your armor to gain more choices when you level up. Still only picking 1 skill at each level. (Hell to add depth a fix could be adding some skills like throw distance increase or attack up as passives, upping the levels you can gain a round to 8, having xp gained faster, and having 1,3,5,7 be passives while 2,4,6,8 are actives. This would give the game type a more MOBA feel and MOBAS have huge replayability due to characters/item builds. Since we don’t have items you buy in a round make the feats pickable (like Heros of the storm)).


CLASS KITS

I’ve played all the classes, obviously some more than others and by no means am I an expert. I can say, for the average player, the game is really well balanced. There wasn’t a single class I played that I couldn’t get into a groove and start to rack up kills. I ended up maining the Raider and felt I could face any character and have a decent time fighting them. Everything seemed really well balanced until about 30 hours in when issues start to show up. One issue is classes with “heavy kits”. What I mean by this is compare the Warden with the Orochi, the Orochi’s kit has more options for every situation than the warden. The warden has no engagment move, 1 top light attack specialty, a backstep into shoulder charge ability and that's about the end of his noticeably lackluster kit. Don’t get me wrong, I loved playing him, he was the 2nd choice for a main and really liked him in 1v1 duels. The kit diffrence is an issue, I know people will argue “well the warden is a easy hero”, but if you go back to thinking what the game really plays like, a fighter, no fighting game worth it’s salt creates heros that lack basic movesets (like engagement tools).


GAME BALANCE

The final issue with the balance of the game is a big one. Dodging. Dodging is far superior than any other defensive option, especially for the assassin classes who, when timed correctly gain a free attack from it. In order to explain this you have to understand that in fighting games, there is a basic rock > paper > scissors dynamic going on. Blocks beat attacks, attacks beat grabs, grabs beat blocks. There is variations like range, frame data, perfect blocking/parrying. But the general idea is the same. Adding dodging is like adding a new dynamic to rock/paper/scissors..a shotgun. You see, dodging beats attacks and grabs. If you are the attacker, a dodge puts me in a place to counter you. Likewise if you grab I can dodge to counter attack you. So the two offensive options you have are taken away by dodging at the right time. During lower level play, and mid level play there is a risk/reward idea to dodging. If you dodge poorly you will get hit. But fighting games, like mobas and hero shooters like overwatch are not balanced around low/mid skill gamers, they are balanced for the pros. The pro players will all dodge at the correct times due to their practise, skill and made reflexes. Due to the far superior dodge, the heros that have abilities tied to dodging (assassins have 2) they will be the only ones seeing true high level play.

BUTTON MAPPING

To add the the issue of dodging is the poor button placement on consoles (I played on PS4), this may seem silly but think about it with a bit more depth. You don’t have to move your hand off the dodge button to perform the dodge in any direction, dodging works on (as stated) attacks and grabs, the 2 of the 3 attack options you have. The 3rd attack option is Feinting an attack. With Feinting you have to aim to the side you want to attack, MOVE your hand to the “O” button then BACK to the NEW direction you want to attack. (Unless your a raider or another hero with the built in light attack feint, but there your new attack will ALWAYS attack up top, very easy to block or dodge and very predictable). It seems like a nitpick, but as you get better in the game you realize how valuable feinting is and how easy feinting is to predict (most attacks redirect to the top). Now the other attacking option is to grab them out of the guard. In order to grab someone you take your hand off the Right joystick and hit [Square], not so hard. In order to break the guard you need to also move your hand to hit [Square] not so hard other than the small window. Now the best strategy for this to work (again I played a raider so I grabbed a lot) is to move your joystick from the left to the right, so they think an attack is coming, then hit grab. This puts your thumb closer to the button, BUT for the baddy it forces them to move their joystick to the left inorder to block your anticipated attack (your right, their left). So they move left putting their thumb further from the all important square button, forcing them to have an even faster reaction to execute the guard break. BAM! Easy grab on 80% of players. With dodge you only need to use your left thumb to pick a direction, and the right thumb can hover over the “x” button to dodge correctly. Both the grab and the dodge buttons are not at you fingertips while playing but the guard break requires more finger travel time to pull off. Meanwhile the chat button is bound to L1 and lockon to L2, and L3/R3 are not used while guarding. Personally a REMAPPING option is needed on PS4. I’d toss Feint to [R3] while locked on, Lock On to toggle mode and on [X], Grab/GB to [L2], dodge to [L1], and I guess move chat to [square].


CONNECTION

It’s been said enough, but I’ll toss it in here. Peer to Peer in a full price AAA game is something the community shouldn’t settle for. Yes it works fine enough for 1v1, but for 4v4 or if you live in an area with weaker internet connection then you will struggle to maintain a steady connection. Sadly it just looks like a way to save on costs, but it will damage the viability of the game becoming a competitive staple.


MICROTRANSACTIONS(?)

And to talk about saving on costs, the way they will make even more money (that the already high AAA price tag) is microtransactions. Since you can use ingame currency to buy random loot boxes that contain new gear, there's a very likely change that this $60(US) / $80 (Canadian) game will have microtransactions. Allowing people with bigger wallets to gear up better and faster than the rest of us. Not much more needs to be said about this as we all know this is how you kill competitive games, give people a way to “pay to win”. Currently in the beta you can’t spend money for the ingame currency, but it’s more than likely to come. Ubisoft did say there will be no microtransactions in the DIVISION, but that game now does have microtransactions. Sadly, I strongly feel they will come, it’s only a matter of time.





TLDR: To wrap up this long post, it’s a very fun game with some issues. I feel it’s the beginning of a new style of combat. One that I look forward to. If For Honor does not balanced towards the skill of high level players another game will take its place (let's be real probably made by blizzard). It should be viewed as and balanced for skilled high level play, just like a fighting game, overwatch, league of legends or starcraft multiplayer. Not gear based like a MMORPG.

CONS

Weak tutorials for the steep learning curve.
Some classes have very heavy kits while others feel lacking.
Dominion is fun, but missing the mark needed to keep the game's longevity.
Gear with stats in a competitive game.
Unbalanced “fighter genre” combat (dodge).
Poor button placement, no remapping.
Peer2Peer connection issues.
Microtransactions in a AAA full priced game.


PROS

Very fun gameplay.




I have more thoughts but this post is way too long already.

ChivNoble-NFK
01-31-2017, 07:40 PM
Microtransactions in a AAA full priced game.



This.
When is it ever going to stop? Srsly?

Waynedetta40k
01-31-2017, 09:49 PM
This.
When is it ever going to stop? Srsly?

Do you want the developers to stop working on the game after release?

Waynedetta40k
01-31-2017, 09:54 PM
Weak tutorials for the steep learning curve.
- agreed
*

Some classes have very heavy kits while others feel lacking.
Feinting is a big thing with the warden and a mechanic you might have never even touched?


Dominion is fun, but missing the mark needed to keep the game's longevity.
Dunno for me 1v1 2v2 and 4v4 combined with that fresh gameplay is enough to keep me busy for a few houndred hours


Gear with stats in a competitive game.
Its yea well 1v1 2v2 works without stats and in 4v4 everyone will have the same stats combined at some point


Unbalanced “fighter genre” combat (dodge).
I do not agree on this one everything can be punished


Poor button placement, no remapping.
agreed this should be improved in further updates


Peer2Peer connection issues.
Yep this **** is the biggest Problem imo


Microtransactions in a AAA full priced game.
The game is full priced but not yet finished they will hopefull work further on the game and bring more updates. For this works needs to be done and workers must be paid.

ChivNoble-NFK
01-31-2017, 09:58 PM
Do you want the developers to stop working on the game after release?

There was a time where you bought a game and everything was included. Why did we stop?

Waynedetta40k
01-31-2017, 10:01 PM
There was a time where you bought a game and everything was included. Why did we stop?

What time? I think you get something wrong here. Would you feel better if they stop after release with 1v1 2v2 4v4 and sell it as "everything there will be ever" like in the good old days? Even in 2005 you had Addons for certain singler player games, nowadays they do not call it addon but paid dlc.
Or like the old subscritopm games? I do not now what your talking about. The game is finished when it releases like the games in the past but they will add future content ADDITIONAL content which you would not get without micros.

S8Canadian
01-31-2017, 10:08 PM
don't forget parry and deflect. Very very useful. Warden parry is awesome.

ChivNoble-NFK
01-31-2017, 10:10 PM
What time? I think you get something wrong here. Would you feel better if they stop after release with 1v1 2v2 4v4 and sell it as "everything there will be ever" like in the good old days? Even in 2005 you had Addons for certain singler player games, nowadays they do not call it addon but paid dlc.
Or like the old subscritopm games? I do not now what your talking about. The game is finished when it releases like the games in the past but they will add future content ADDITIONAL content which you would not get without micros.

So you're saying that extra content can't be free because the people who make/create content wouldn't get anything out off it?

SpazzMaticuz
02-01-2017, 03:13 PM
Where's my million dollars for guessing p2p here ^^

Idledan
02-01-2017, 03:39 PM
I only played the closed beta this past weekend, and I do agree with the tutorials. I was raging my *** off trying to figure out why I couldn't execute someone. I went on forums, youtube, asked people in game, and eventually went to twitch to ask another streamer why the hell wasn't I being prompted to execute. Finally one of the better streamers showed me exactly how it should be done, and now it just seems stupid I couldn't do that on my own. Also I noticed it would tell you about abilities, but not tell you what they are for. It would be very nice to have something say this is this combo and it's useful in this situation, and then you have a grasp of what your trying to do, cause I'm not gonna lie I have no idea how to fit in some of these combos, I just don't understand the basic idea behind them, I'm sure this will all come with time, but for someone just getting started it's hella frustrating not knowing why something just happened to you, or what something is for. seems like one really good tutorial for each style of fighter would solve this entire problem.

Flatlander57
02-01-2017, 04:40 PM
There was a time where you bought a game and everything was included. Why did we stop?

IT IS ALL INCLUDED.

I am going to lose my **** if I keep seeing this.

Yes, there was a time where you bought a $60 game, it was just single player, never received any updates or new content. Correct, it included everything.

BUT THEN they started releasing EXPANSION PACKS! WOO HOO! Now my favorite game Star Craft has an expansion back called "Brood War" and I can increase how long I can have fun with my favorite game. BUT, I hate single-play campaigns, and the Expansion Pack forced me to pay for an extended Single Player Campaign, I only wanted the Multiplayer Content.

BUT THEN, HOLY ****, DLC became a thing! Now, in my favorite games, instead of having to throw down $40 for an Expansion Pack that includes things I don't want. I can just throw down a small amount of money and ONLY get the VERY SPECIFIC things that I want. I don't have to buy **** I don't need. Holy **** what a great idea.

And now, people like you, who have forgotten the old days of games with no updates, or new content, or balance patches, are starting to complain that we have to pay for stuff people make? Are you serious? I don't know where you live, but we abolished slavery in the United States, so Game Developers work for money. And yes, they still work for money even after a game is released and they are doing updates, adding new content, and balance patches. So unless you want to Enslave Ubisoft and force them to work for free after this game releases, to continue to update the game after release, then you better be glad that SOME PLAYERS will be paying these guys to continue their work.

ChivNoble-NFK
02-01-2017, 05:35 PM
IT IS ALL INCLUDED.

I am going to lose my **** if I keep seeing this.

Yes, there was a time where you bought a $60 game, it was just single player, never received any updates or new content. Correct, it included everything.

BUT THEN they started releasing EXPANSION PACKS! WOO HOO! Now my favorite game Star Craft has an expansion back called "Brood War" and I can increase how long I can have fun with my favorite game. BUT, I hate single-play campaigns, and the Expansion Pack forced me to pay for an extended Single Player Campaign, I only wanted the Multiplayer Content.

BUT THEN, HOLY ****, DLC became a thing! Now, in my favorite games, instead of having to throw down $40 for an Expansion Pack that includes things I don't want. I can just throw down a small amount of money and ONLY get the VERY SPECIFIC things that I want. I don't have to buy **** I don't need. Holy **** what a great idea.

And now, people like you, who have forgotten the old days of games with no updates, or new content, or balance patches, are starting to complain that we have to pay for stuff people make? Are you serious? I don't know where you live, but we abolished slavery in the United States, so Game Developers work for money. And yes, they still work for money even after a game is released and they are doing updates, adding new content, and balance patches. So unless you want to Enslave Ubisoft and force them to work for free after this game releases, to continue to update the game after release, then you better be glad that SOME PLAYERS will be paying these guys to continue their work.

Since I can't answer that without spamming the swears, the only reply I can give is "ok". You have made your point.

Hackfraysn
02-01-2017, 08:28 PM
This.
When is it ever going to stop? Srsly?

I don't have a problem with microtransactions at all as long as they're entirely optional.

XeroTheBigBoss
02-01-2017, 09:53 PM
I didn't put on good gear till the very last few hours of the game and I did exceptionally well. Yes the gear helps in Dom for Revenge spam but they still have to kill you. You cna easily avoid them till it wears off. When you see them make the initial glow is the indicator they have earned Revenge mode. You can Grab or avoid or keep attacking and risk the initiation knockdown.

I really felt like skill reigned supreme overall in this game so far in Beta and Alpha. I notice you must of got your hide handed to you a lot by Peacekeepers and Orochis due to possibly button mash mentality most have.

I play Orochi and have found challenges in ALL of the classes. I jokingly say Orochi is OP but by no means do I honestly believe it's unbeatable. If it were everybody could pick it up.
I feel the some of the heavy classes could block nearly ANYTHING you throw their way. Even then they weren't unbeatable, just required more mind games, baiting, or technique.


I do agree with some of what you say on the gear thing but it wasn't so bad to the point a crappier player geared up could beat a better player not geared up. Till the last day of beta I had 21 gear level and maintained a 3.66KDR witha 81 win% overall.

I agree with what you say but not to the extreme it feels like you take it to.