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View Full Version : An idea for an IL-2 game that could grow the Flight Sim market!



MoritzJGOne
08-25-2004, 03:09 PM
Here is an idea that I posted in the Pacific Fighters forum, thought that I would show it to Oleg:

Comments on carrier readiness and the Wolverine have inspired me to toss out an idea for a new IL-2 format that may even enlarge the flight sim market.

I would guess that for every flight sim pilot, there is a would-be pilot who then puts the game up on the shelf as being too hard. Somehow opening the box and quickly mastering a FW190-D is not something most people can do.

What I suggest is a sim that could be called 'Cadet Pilot'. You can join the Soviet, German, RAF, USAAF or USN and go through their training from primary trainers through the to getting their wings in the cadet corps.

Aircraft types: Soviet: PO-2, Mig 7, Germaun Buchman, FW trainer (forgot Number), US: PT17, PT19, BT13, AT9, AT10, AT6, British (either train in the US or Canada) Tiger Moth, Anson, Oxford.

The real trick feature would be an AI instructor, screaming at you until you solo. Then, it's cross country, gunnery, formation and for the swabbies, carrier landings on the USS Wolverine.

[This message was edited by MoritzJGOne on Thu August 26 2004 at 07:41 AM.]

MoritzJGOne
08-25-2004, 03:09 PM
Here is an idea that I posted in the Pacific Fighters forum, thought that I would show it to Oleg:

Comments on carrier readiness and the Wolverine have inspired me to toss out an idea for a new IL-2 format that may even enlarge the flight sim market.

I would guess that for every flight sim pilot, there is a would-be pilot who then puts the game up on the shelf as being too hard. Somehow opening the box and quickly mastering a FW190-D is not something most people can do.

What I suggest is a sim that could be called 'Cadet Pilot'. You can join the Soviet, German, RAF, USAAF or USN and go through their training from primary trainers through the to getting their wings in the cadet corps.

Aircraft types: Soviet: PO-2, Mig 7, Germaun Buchman, FW trainer (forgot Number), US: PT17, PT19, BT13, AT9, AT10, AT6, British (either train in the US or Canada) Tiger Moth, Anson, Oxford.

The real trick feature would be an AI instructor, screaming at you until you solo. Then, it's cross country, gunnery, formation and for the swabbies, carrier landings on the USS Wolverine.

[This message was edited by MoritzJGOne on Thu August 26 2004 at 07:41 AM.]

HalisMojab1
08-25-2004, 03:50 PM
Well I really don't want to cr**p all over your idea, because the training idea may well appeal to some. But I'd just like to make this observation:
As a would-be-pilot who often finds Sims very hard, I usually look for the options screen, and tone down the realism. IL-2 serves very well in this area. After being killed in every mission I flew, often because I became target-obsessed in large furballs and got jumped from behind by other aircraft, I chose the invulnerable mode. After I'd got better at situational awareness, I switched the invulnerability off.
The idea of training modes would turn off this would-be-pilot completely. I just want to blow stuff up, and the quicker I get there, the better. Ultimately, what I put on the shelf is the sort of Sim that fails to reach the level of realism that I eventually achieve. I think IL-2 touches both ends of the spectrum.
Now if Oleg would just patch it so that we can get individual throttle control for multi-engines, then it would be darn near perfect.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2004, 04:44 PM
I've seen the idea before, and I always say that, because we don't die, and we can afford to "prang" countless top-line aircraft virtually, we have no real need of trainer aircraft. The same rules apply, it's just that you're starting with the most powerful aircraft.

But, since there's no loss of life or limb, why bother "learning" a AT-6 or a Tiger Moth??

Besides, the dev time spent on trainers could be better spent on fighting craft.

Ironzentaur
08-26-2004, 07:50 AM
"The real trick feature would be an AI instructor, screaming at you"

It's enough my boss, my wife, my child and anybody else is already screaming at me...
Nice idea, but ... ;-)

Cossack13
08-26-2004, 09:14 AM
A good off-line set of training tutorials built into the game, using the fighter craft as Stigler suggested, would be the way to go.

You don't need much, 3-4 for each major plane type and keep them up to date with the patches.

http://www.tolwyn.com/~cossack/Coss13Sig.gif

GT182
08-26-2004, 09:28 AM
I agree with Cossack13. It would be a better way to make better pilots of us all. Nothing worse than firing up a new sim and finding out you ain't as good as you knew you were. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

As for HalisMojab1's way of flying, that's what causes all the problems if flying online and ruins it for everyone else that takes the time to learn how to fly the "right way". Not saying you do that, that you "just want to blow stuff up, and the quicker I get there, the better"...but that's for single player. Flying like that online is a good way to get kicked.

"GT182" / "Stab/JG51_vonSpinmeister"
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WOLFMondo
08-26-2004, 09:47 AM
Some sort of flight school/Tutorial would be excellent. IL2 was my first flight sim and at first found it frustratingly difficult to pick up until I started flying with everything on easy and gradually put things to FR.

A proper tutorial campaign of somekind would be very welcome and if nothing else teach people how to fly and use CEP correctly.

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Fafnir_6
08-26-2004, 10:12 AM
A couple of other types for the luftwaffe:

Ar66C
Ar68E-1
Ar96B
Bf108B
Bf109G-12
Bu131
Bu133
Bu181
Fw44J
Fw56A-1
Fw58B
Fw190S-8
Ju88A-12 was it?? can't remeber the Ju88A trainer variant.
He51B-1
Kl25
Kl26
Me163S-1

Cheers and great idea,

Fafnir_6

Fafnir_6
08-26-2004, 10:12 AM
A couple of other types for the luftwaffe:

Ar66C
Ar68E-1
Ar96B
Bf108B
Bf109G-12
Bu131
Bu133
Bu181
Fw44J
Fw56A-1
Fw58B
Fw190S-8
Ju88A-12 was it?? can't remeber the Ju88A trainer variant.
He51B-1
Kl25
Kl26
Me163S-1

Cheers and great idea,

Fafnir_6

zaelu
08-26-2004, 10:17 AM
hello all, yes, Im the newbee.

That is a good ideea IMO. yes it could take some times to implement but it will help "grow the Flight Sim market!" (that thing 2 of the replyers before me did not notice)
I was thinking of something like this for long but didnt have the guts to say it (plus the fact that I use opera and cant loggin). So, I will tale you about my game experience as some did here. I play il2 since FB got out (played few times original il-2) initial without stick, now I have a cr@ppy one with one hat by a year or so. I play allmost every day, allmost exclusively offline (yes online Im the dead guy, but is fun). I use realistic setings but with icons (never invulnerable).
Ok, now how do I feel? Well, I fly a plane with no track ir (throwing my self from left to right with the hat), with no ideea how to counter properly the tork, with no pedals... (u get the ideea, allways in storm). How do I maintain formation? well, I dont... bombing with 111? Ha! you're kidding right? Do you now that with F8 view (yes, outside for this thing) you can do good dive bombing with it? How do I fight human players? I try to be a hard to get target for as long as posible. Maybe in a dogfight is no real theory, but at least basic manuvers explanations and proper time to do them could be included. What manuver should I make now? Should I pull to him or make some other thing to gain energy, or how do I conserve that energy in my eforts to get him? etc etc.I got more infos about dogfight in "lock on" than "il-2" and "lock on" is not realy a dogfight air sim. Also voice is better than text (F22 had voice in training).
I know it can take time and coding ( http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) but it realy can raise the airsim market. Example: I am in a 50 PC's homenetwork and I tried to atract some of them in to this game... everybody liked it, it was all wow, wow, but... "it is too hard, I cant play it" was in the end the final answer for all but one (that has a even cr@pier stick http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )
Now, if you make a training section and put a sticker on the game box that anounce it, I think many will buy "il-2" or "Pacific Fighters" or "BoB" than some M$ FS or CFS. Maybe the hard simers and real pilots dont need it, but many of the others do... Ask a question... how many buyers had stoped playing the game because it was too hard? I think they are bad advertise.

I am a stuborn s.o.a.b. and I will not stop playing it whatever it will have a training part or not, nor if your coments will be acid, but I wanted to tell you that the world of il-2 sturmovik is not filled only with virtual(y) pilots. And Im sorry that I am such a lousy representant of "the others". Also escuse my english, btw Im from Romania.
I salute you. (cant say "see ya" cause you will be in my back anyway http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[This message was edited by zaelu on Thu August 26 2004 at 09:35 AM.]

WWMaxGunz
08-26-2004, 02:31 PM
IL2 as originally released comes with training track type lessons.
Patches made them non-functional. Most people seem to have ignored
them anyway. They have not been officially supplanted but I believe
it is still within the sim to make training lessons, you can even
include timed text telling what is going on but once the player
takes over the training program part ends and the player is in
charge.

WWSensei made such lessons long ago and I believe that other people
posted some on websites. Perhaps if enough people show a need then
others will fill it. (no, not me at this time)


Neal

MoritzJGOne
08-26-2004, 04:45 PM
The whole idea came about with two key concepts:

1. None of the training tracks really start with 'primary trainers' and work up to frontline aircraft. The US cadet program was to teach proficiency in flying, navigation, weapons and drinking.

2. A game where you try to simply get through the WWII era Air Service Cadet program would be an interesting challenge. This is especially true if your advanced training is over Lake Michigan off of the USS Wolverine or USS Badger. I am sure that Luftwaffe and Red Air Force training would have their color as well.

HalisMojab1
08-26-2004, 05:05 PM
GT182, why does my way of flying cause problems online?
What I said was that I use lower settings until I become proficient. Then I up the ante.
Naturally while I'm learning the ropes, I stay offline. When I get better, I go on-line. Don't know why that's a problem.
Couple of weeks ago I flew a TB-3 in an online WWI dogfight, I concentrated on trying to bomb the enemy aerodrome. I got shot a few times, my gunners picked off some fighters, and I managed to total the airfield enough to get the success message more than once. I had a good time bombing, the fighters had a good time shooting me down, and everybody seemed happy. There was a little altercation concerning the top-gun fighter using rockets and cannon, but it was all light-hearted, so I don't know what your problem is, but nobody on-line perceived it.
The Sim itself is training. It's not real you know.

GT182
08-26-2004, 08:14 PM
First off HalisMojab1 you didn't say you played Offline the first time. And second, you didn't read correctly what I said. The way you are playing offline is fine and a good way to learn, but not the way we've all learned. Training is the best way and it makes us all better. Having a training Campaign in FB would be the smartest way to learn, but it might be hard to break bad habits that we all have. Ask a "Real" flight instructor or pilot sometime about bad habits and they'll tell you.

And yes, years ago I had some flight training. Nothing like an instructor yelling at you or giving you a slap in the head to make you learn the right way. My instructor was an old SOB but he was the best around and was respected.

So actually I don't care how you play on or offline, it was just my opinion. But one day you'll see what I mean if you fly like you said, online. They will see it. Actually, if you did fly online, as you say, on someone's server you couldn't set your individual settings lower. You use their settings as default. They have control of game realism, not you. If they join you, then you have control of realism settings. So it's not too hard for us to see what you said was a little unreal.

Also, we do have individual throttle control. Look in your Controls Menu and you will see where you can set keys for each engine up to 8.

"GT182" / "Stab/JG51_vonSpinmeister"
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"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2004, 07:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I've seen the idea before, and I always say that, because we don't die, and we can afford to "prang" countless top-line aircraft virtually, we have no real need of trainer aircraft. The same rules apply, it's just that you're starting with the most powerful aircraft.

But, since there's no loss of life or limb, why bother "learning" a AT-6 or a Tiger Moth??

Besides, the dev time spent on trainers could be better spent on fighting craft.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and getting those fighting craft's FM and DM better. Better still concentrate more on FM and DM than more than enough planes (too many) that nobody will fly. Getting the switches and dials on the flight panel to actually work, etc

Training Misssions would be an excellent call, going over the basics

HalisMojab1
08-27-2004, 01:12 PM
Hi GT182, I like things my way. Didn't realise everyone else learnt your way: "the way we've all learned". Guess it's just me against the World. So a training Sim should outsell everything else on the planet. Go for it, but don't call me.
I'm sorry you have difficulty understanding my point about Flight Sims being a training programme in themselves. Maybe if I sat next to you and shouted, you might get it.
It's quite simple really: turn the realism down to the level you can handle, and as you improve, start to turn the realism up. At some point as your skills improve, you may option to go online and see how you fare against other gamers. Or you may not.
If you want full realism, next time you get shot down in online combat, get rid of your computer and never fly again, because that's as near as you can get to dying in a virtual World.

Individual throttle control by joystick axes, as in "Hotas Control" options, rather than keys or buttons, is not supported in IL-2.
Should have made it abundantly clear.