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zugfuhrer
03-29-2004, 02:38 PM
When Scharnhorst and Gneissenau broke out of Brest 11/2 1942 and passed the Straits of Dover in broad daylight, the RAF did the best they could, perhaps everything,
to sink thoose ships. They got the spit 9 at that time. The LW protected the outbreake with everything they could, the first FW and Me109 E and F.
The ships managed to get to Norway and Kiel.
During the Dieppe raid august 1942, RAF did the best they could, perhaps everything, to get airsuperiority over Dieppe with Spit9. LW used mostly FW190. The RAF could choose to operate at the best altitude for them. They never achieved air superiority and lost 119 aircrafts but could protect the ships.
The Spit9 was better than SpitV.

I am not saying that LW was superior or anything like that.
There are many other occasions where RAF achieved its goals and LW didÔ┬┤nt.

It would be great to set up a scenario of this and see if the outcome would be historical.

zugfuhrer
03-29-2004, 02:38 PM
When Scharnhorst and Gneissenau broke out of Brest 11/2 1942 and passed the Straits of Dover in broad daylight, the RAF did the best they could, perhaps everything,
to sink thoose ships. They got the spit 9 at that time. The LW protected the outbreake with everything they could, the first FW and Me109 E and F.
The ships managed to get to Norway and Kiel.
During the Dieppe raid august 1942, RAF did the best they could, perhaps everything, to get airsuperiority over Dieppe with Spit9. LW used mostly FW190. The RAF could choose to operate at the best altitude for them. They never achieved air superiority and lost 119 aircrafts but could protect the ships.
The Spit9 was better than SpitV.

I am not saying that LW was superior or anything like that.
There are many other occasions where RAF achieved its goals and LW didÔ┬┤nt.

It would be great to set up a scenario of this and see if the outcome would be historical.

erauflyer
03-29-2004, 07:21 PM
I'm not so sure that that is the case, at least with the equipment. The Spitfire Mk.IX was not in service at the time of the channel dash. No. 64 squadron took the first deliveries in July of '42, and by the time of the Dieppe raid, only four of the fifty-six squadrons deployed were equiped with Mk.IXs. Most were still equiped with Spitfire Mk. Vs or (Gulp!) Hurricane Mk.II's! These planes were generally outclassed by the Luftwaffe's latest Bf's and Fw's.
In regards to the issue of pilot quality, I do see your point. Many of the pilots serving in RAF fighter units at the time consisted of green pilots who were just becoming used to their mounts. Many of the more expierienced pilots were transfered to other theaters and staff postitions as the RAF's global responsibilites grew. The Luftwaffe, on the other hand, had some of the most expierienced and seasoned fighter pilots in the world serving in JG-2 and JG-26 on the "Kanalfront". So there was a discrepency in pilot skill present during these actions.
I think, though, that it may be a little harsh to say that it is the pilots who were to blame for these all of these failures. There were many command blunders made (the only squadron specifically trained to take on the Kriegsmarine in the area was at half strength and unescorted!), as well as the fact the RAF was often flying equipment inferior to that of their enemies. Overall, I believe that it would be fun to refly these missions, yes, but perhaps knowing the information they didn't rather than placing ourselves as the superior airmen.
I apologize for this going on so long, but I am very passionite about this particular topic! Well, now that I've got my two bits in I think I'll give my fingers a break and take some tension out on a 190 (with my Spit Mk.V of course!)http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

erauflyer
03-29-2004, 07:21 PM
I'm not so sure that that is the case, at least with the equipment. The Spitfire Mk.IX was not in service at the time of the channel dash. No. 64 squadron took the first deliveries in July of '42, and by the time of the Dieppe raid, only four of the fifty-six squadrons deployed were equiped with Mk.IXs. Most were still equiped with Spitfire Mk. Vs or (Gulp!) Hurricane Mk.II's! These planes were generally outclassed by the Luftwaffe's latest Bf's and Fw's.
In regards to the issue of pilot quality, I do see your point. Many of the pilots serving in RAF fighter units at the time consisted of green pilots who were just becoming used to their mounts. Many of the more expierienced pilots were transfered to other theaters and staff postitions as the RAF's global responsibilites grew. The Luftwaffe, on the other hand, had some of the most expierienced and seasoned fighter pilots in the world serving in JG-2 and JG-26 on the "Kanalfront". So there was a discrepency in pilot skill present during these actions.
I think, though, that it may be a little harsh to say that it is the pilots who were to blame for these all of these failures. There were many command blunders made (the only squadron specifically trained to take on the Kriegsmarine in the area was at half strength and unescorted!), as well as the fact the RAF was often flying equipment inferior to that of their enemies. Overall, I believe that it would be fun to refly these missions, yes, but perhaps knowing the information they didn't rather than placing ourselves as the superior airmen.
I apologize for this going on so long, but I am very passionite about this particular topic! Well, now that I've got my two bits in I think I'll give my fingers a break and take some tension out on a 190 (with my Spit Mk.V of course!)http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

horseback
03-29-2004, 09:19 PM
There were only a few Squadrons equipped with the Mk IX at Dieppe; that was August 1942, and the overwhelming majority of RAF fighter squadrons based near the Channel were equipped with Mk Vs. This remained the case for at least another six months after Dieppe.

Mk IX squadrons did do better at Dieppe than their fellows, but they were opposing not only German fighters, but bombers and Jabos as well, so not all the Spits shot down that day were credited to the Jagdewaffe.

As for the 'breakout', the RAF didn't notice the ships were underway until someone saw them cruising past Dover, and they just threw whatever was available at the ships as quickly as they could be armed for antiship operations (sinking warships requires armor-piercing bombs or torpedoes, weapons not usually used by the RAF or FAA at the time, and in the case of torpedoes, a lot more work to load).

Admittedly, it was hardly British military aviation's most shining moment, but again, it was a surprise party, and any Mk IXs involved were accidental guests, and not expected to sink warships (which mounted formidible AA of their own). The RAF at the time lacked aircraft that were adequate for the anti-warship, as opposed to the anti-shipping, role.

Zuggie, you're attacking a straw man with both examples; three or four Spitfire Squadrons (16 a/c each) were equipped with the Mk IX to oppose 2+ JGs (over 100 a/c each)at the times you cite, and they were not all operating at the same time during those periods, since they were all-day affairs.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

zugfuhrer
03-30-2004, 06:41 AM
There where a informator that told the Allied that the battleships left the harbour and a Hudson equipped with radar that tracked them from almost the beginning. There had been daily air-raids against Brest. RAF had made successfull attacks on battleships in Taranto and not to forget, Bismarck. They did torpedo attacks on the iron-ore trade by the dutch coast, so they got skilled torpedo-pilots I think.

The most common LW a/c at the time for the outbreak was Me109f2/f4 I think. The LW regulary put their best pilots on the eastfront. The Abbeville boys was the exception.

About Dieppe, Jonny Jonsson doesnt mention anything about unexperienced pilots. He only writes about his frustration about the spit against the FW190. I think that he wrote that the spit XV was the first plane to match it. My memory isnt 100% about this, perhaps he wrote that it was the spit IX.

But it would be great to make a scenario about this, like a server that goes on for realtime, and permits duties at the correct time, with the correct info.

SeaFireLIV
03-30-2004, 06:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
But it would be great to make a scenario about this, like a server that goes on for realtime, and permits duties at the correct time, with the correct info.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it wouldn`t! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif