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Mitlov47
03-01-2004, 01:56 PM
The official Finnish skins in the game have a blue-and-white roundel, but most of the skins on www.il2skins.com (http://www.il2skins.com) feature a blue swastika. Is it correct to assume from this that the Finnish Air Force used the blue swastika during WWII? If so, what is the roundel from--the prewar period, the postwar period?

I'm not accusing the Finns of being Nazis--I know Finland was just fighting against Soviet aggression and refused to institute any anti-Semitic policies (Finnish Jews were actually much safer than the Jews of certain allied nations like France and the USSR). However, I'm just curious about the history of the insignia on the planes.

Thanks!

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Coming soon to a battlefield near you in an Israeli Air Force BF-109.

Mitlov47
03-01-2004, 01:56 PM
The official Finnish skins in the game have a blue-and-white roundel, but most of the skins on www.il2skins.com (http://www.il2skins.com) feature a blue swastika. Is it correct to assume from this that the Finnish Air Force used the blue swastika during WWII? If so, what is the roundel from--the prewar period, the postwar period?

I'm not accusing the Finns of being Nazis--I know Finland was just fighting against Soviet aggression and refused to institute any anti-Semitic policies (Finnish Jews were actually much safer than the Jews of certain allied nations like France and the USSR). However, I'm just curious about the history of the insignia on the planes.

Thanks!

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Coming soon to a battlefield near you in an Israeli Air Force BF-109.

Erbriac
03-01-2004, 02:10 PM
Blue Swastika = till 1944
White/Blue Roundel = from 1944 onwards

****************************
312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
****************************

Markku38
03-01-2004, 02:15 PM
Hi!
Hope this helps you by your question... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Finnish air forces as well Finnish tank troops used Swastika 1918-1944. Why since 1918? Because in that time (During Finnish Civil War) Swedish Count Von Rosen donated to Finnish legal government (White troops) a plane where Von Rosen have painted a symbol of his family, Blue Swastika. After The Civil War FinlandÔ┬┤s newborn Army used that blue swastika as symbol of Finnish Air Forces. Also Tank troops adopted that new symbol. Tank troops SwastikaÔ┬┤s color is black.

How Finnish Swastika then differ from Nazi Swastika? Finnish Swastika is blue and it rest fully on its one "spike",
Nazi Swastika is black and usually in 45 degrees angle.

Swastika generally is centuries old Symbol of Luck.

Mitlov47
03-01-2004, 03:03 PM
Thanks for the info!

Does anyone know where I can find some skins that feature the roundel? Even if it's a historical anachronism on pre-1944 planes, and even though I understand that the Finnish swastika was not connected with Nazism, I really prefer to fly with a roundel. Honestly, I have an almost physical discomfort with swastikas--it's hard to explain if you don't have it yourself.

Anyway, does anyone know of a place were I could get some Finnish skins with roundels? I'd like a few more paint jobs than the game gives, and www.il2skins.com (http://www.il2skins.com) pretty much only has the (historically more accurate) swastika versions.

Thanks!

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Coming soon to a battlefield near you in an Israeli BF-109 or a Finnish Brewster Model 239.

Chuck_Older
03-01-2004, 03:13 PM
If you can't find a skin and you have one that you like, but you want to change it, do what I do:

Edit it.

I don't mean with some 300 dollar photo editor.

Open the skin in Paint. It's in Windows.

Then use the square outline (upper right corner of the toolbar on the left, it's a click and drag tool) to designate a portion of the skin that can ge used to cover up what you want to blank out. Then go to 'edit' and click 'copy'. Now go to edit and click 'paste'. Drag the copied chunk and deposit it where you can best use it to cover up what you don't like. With practice, you can take any skin and make a 'blank' skin that looks perfect, with camoflage or whatever, but without unit insignia, national markings, whatever. The use the eyedropper on the toolbar to the left to select a color nearby your 'repair' to blend in, if need be. Once you get good at it, you will need this less and less. Paint is free because you already have it, and it's powerful enough to do what you need to do. All it takes is a little practice. You can flip the cut sections around, duplicate them, take sections of OTHER skins and paste them on...pretty easy, even I can do it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif All you need to remember is to make a new name for the skin so you don't overwrite the existing one you worked on. Then close the skin and select 'don't save changes'. Everyone overlooks good old Paint. I have all soets of skins that are a combination of several others that look perfect, just practice and you'll be cutting and pasting and touching up like nobody's business.

*****************************
Did anyone prophesize these people? Only Travis. Come in Travis! ~ Clash

Vladimir_No2
03-01-2004, 04:53 PM
Hmm, I had a similar problem to you EMitton. I read quite a bit about the Finnish involvment in WW2, and after that I was able to fly Finnish aircraft with the swastika markings. If it helps, the Finns ended up fighting the Germans too in the Lapland War. There are a couple of blank skins for the B-239 on Il2Skins, so I would look into those. If you can get a template, I know simple procedures for adding good looking markings to the aircraft with some free photoeditors I know of. If you want more information on this, e-mail me at Vladimir_no2@yahoo.com

http://ww1.m78.com/photo-2/scharnhorst.jpg
"Engage the enemy more closely" -Rear Admiral Cradock

Mitlov47
03-02-2004, 12:12 PM
Chuck Older: Great idea! I never would have thought about that. And it sounds simple enough so that even I could do it.

Vladimir--I sent you an email.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.

Mitlov47
03-02-2004, 12:25 PM
I just made an awesome discovery. The skinner "Hurri-Khan" on il2skins.com includes two versions of every Finland skin he has: one with the blue swastika, and one with "no markings" (so I can turn on the game's roundel symbol).

Time to download all of Hurri-Khan's skins! Anyone else in my position should do the same.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.

Jippo01
03-02-2004, 01:24 PM
I'm not trying to convert you EMitton, or anything. I'm just a bit miffed about your attitude against a piece of graphic.

The previously mentioned good old count Von Rosen picked up from Hindu culture where it was a good luck charm. It served Finnish defense forces as their symbold some ten fifteen years before there even was such a thing as Nazi-party. I mean looking the matter from that point, one could maybe say that red star of USSR and jewish star mean the same as they look the same (well both are stars, aren't they).

I can understand that some people aren't too fond of swastikas, and that is very fine. It just bothers me that people do not appreciate that a blue swastika somewhere might represent a wholly different set of ideals and values than a black swastika somewhere else.

But still, I think you are making the whole matter just so much out of proportion. I refer to "ethical questions" etc. It is a game people play, nothing more serious. I think it would be more enjoyable to take it as such, and not as a political statement.

If it was real, then again, I would first ask an ethical question: "Do you mind killing people?", because that is essentially the contents of the game, and worry about the color of their skin(on the aircraft, of course) only after that.

I'm sorry about my little outburst, but I just wonder why you have made these two threads here lately, that's all. I just cannot see it from where you are standing, I guess.


All the best,

-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf

F19_Ob
03-02-2004, 01:51 PM
Well it has been said before, but anyway.

The svastika in it self is just a symbol from asia, no one know really how old but it can be found on old artwork and temples in asia and nearby. In many cultures the last 500 years it has been a lucksymbol.

The Finns had it before the nazis did and it had no political meaning before this, to my knowledge, well it had kind off religious meaning and those were political in ancient times and are still today in some countries.


The nazis "infected" the symbol so the world dont want to use it anymore.....For some the russian star has very negative meaning, since stalin also did many of the things hitler exelled in, but stalin was on the winning side.

cheers

Mitlov47
03-02-2004, 03:56 PM
My posts were not meant to inflame or irritate anyone. If they did, I sincerely apologize. The first thread was largely motivated by a desire to discuss something besides "is the LA7 overmodeled?" and "why doesn't the M108 do more damage?" The second thread was a quick historical question, which then segued into a "where can I find such-and-such a skin?" I didn't realize that these topics would get under anyone's skin.

I understand that the swastika did not have any negative connotations until Hitler stole it in the 1930s. However, sometimes the meanings of symbols change and you can't go back. I mean, the symbol of a crucifiction didn't have any *positive* connotations until about 2000 years ago when Christ was crucified (it was just a way to execute common criminals). However, nowadays, the symbol of the crucifix is *completely inseparable* from Christianity. The course of history has saved the symbol of the cross from an ugly meaning; unfortunately, the course of history has condemned the swastika to have negative connotations.

If I take the politics of this game too seriously, be assured that at least I'm equal-opportunity. When flying for the Allies, I normally use USAAF markings over VVS, and I particularly prefer to use Tuskeegee skins over generic USAAF whenever they're available.

But since Hurri-Khan includes a no-markings version of every single skin he makes, something tells me I'm not the only person who feels this way. Just for the record.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.

Chuck_Older
03-02-2004, 04:00 PM
You wouldn't be Human without an opinion.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Jippo01
03-02-2004, 04:03 PM
I'm sure nobody would be offended by such things, and I also do agree that it surely beats the constant aircraft performance threads.

I was just curious, that's all. The viewpoint just seemed so strange to me, and I was wondering if I could understand the toughts behind it...

But thats not very important in the end, I think.


-jippo

ps. I think skinners often provide the markingless skin for the online wars, at least that's why I have done it.

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf

Jazz-Man
03-02-2004, 04:09 PM
EMitton,

If there are any particular skins that you've grown attached to, and they don't have a marking'less version, let me know which ones (give me some search parameters on Il2skins.com) and I'll do the editing, if you want.

As I said in the original post about the Bf-109's, I understand what you're talking about. Sometimes even knowing things like "its just a game" or "Von Rosens cross and the Swastica are different" etc aren't enough to clear the path in your mind that takes one to the other.

I'm very glad that 1C:Maddox decided against the inclusion of the Swastica in their game, and on the other hand, I am glad that there are those who want to include it on their own planes, because I think the history of the symbol is very important, and should never be forgotten. Personally, I don't fly with either the Blue or Black swastica on my aircraft unless it is something that only I would see (ie by using il2 manager or Il2-MAT).

S!
William "Jazz-Man" Katz
Squadron Batman
RAF No.74 Squadron
http://home.sou.edu/~katzw/images/signature.jpg

Mitlov47
03-02-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Jippo01:
I was just curious, that's all. The viewpoint just seemed so strange to me, and I was wondering if I could understand the toughts behind it...

It's a perfectly valid question. If I wanted to play psychologist with myself, I'd trace it to a series of confrontations I had with Neo-Nazis when I was in first grade (seven years old). I've been uncomfortable around the swastika ever since.

I realize it's a personal ideosyncracy of mine, which is why I would never ever ever EVER dream of condemning someone else for choosing to fly with the historically accurate pre-1944 Finnish skin.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.

SUPERAEREO
03-02-2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by ob_swe:
Well it has been said before, but anyway.

The svastika in it self is just a symbol from asia, no one know really how old but it can be found on old artwork and temples in asia and nearby. In many cultures the last 500 years it has been a lucksymbol.

The Finns had it before the nazis did and it had no political meaning before this, to my knowledge, well it had kind off religious meaning and those were political in ancient times and are still today in some countries.


The nazis "infected" the symbol so the world dont want to use it anymore.....For some the russian star has very negative meaning, since stalin also did many of the things hitler exelled in, but stalin was on the winning side.

cheers

Just wanted to add that as far as I know the swastika was a traditional good luck symbol in the whole Baltic region, and I am told it can occasionally still be found carved above the entrance of old farm buildings.

It could well have originated in Asia, and we should note that it was also used by native Americans. The planes of the Escadrille Lafayette carried an Indian Head whose headdress included a swastika motif and both the French and the American successors to the Escadrille carried this insignia well into WW2.

Before the Russian invasion in June 1940, Latvian planes also displayed swastikas: red on a white disk.

Once again, there was no link whatsoever with the German Nazi party.

In a way it is rather sad that the atrocities committed during the war have given such a sinister connotation to this ancient solar symbol.

S!

Jippo01
03-02-2004, 04:27 PM
Ok I get it. :) And I respect your opinion too. :)

For me being Finnish it is just so outright simple that there is significant difference between the two swastikas - shape is the same, but the values they represent completely different. In many cases quite the opposite, actually. It is always difficult to see things differently than you have used to.


Happy hunting online in the skin you choose! :)


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf

SUPERAEREO
03-02-2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by EMitton:

(...)
I realize it's a personal ideosyncracy of mine .
(...)



Symbols always elicit powerful responses in us, and your reaction is perfectly justified.
I am really glad to see that the people in this forum seem to understand that virtually wearing a set of insignia in a historically-based game does not equate with embracing or condoning the ideas that were behind it.

S!

Aimosika
03-02-2004, 04:47 PM
And also pilots from arabic countries find US markings and US flight symbols quite more ugly than swastikas...

Skullin
03-03-2004, 11:39 AM
"I understand that the swastika did not have any negative connotations until Hitler stole it in the 1930s"

Actually, Hitler didn't steal it. He was a very good artist, and got the idea from an ancient symbol he saw in a book.

masamainio
03-04-2004, 09:26 AM
Here are some of the best links about Finnish Air Force history:

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/faf.html

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/