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von_Albert
06-27-2004, 04:31 AM
I know there have been endless debates about who was the best pilot and these usually fall into the trap of couting arial victories, i.e. Hartmann was the best! He was good, but also a relatively cautious pilot, who firmly believed in the practice of living to fight another day. Thus, a few slightly more enlightened people point out the fact that total victory numbers are also relative to time spent in theatre, available targets to actually shoot down, etc.

Others then might say, that it was Marsaille who was the best, because the man's shooting skills were legendary, and all his victories were in the west, etc.

However, I'm interested in hearing some opinions on who you guys think the VERY best pilot was.

Was is Yeager who once said, "I'd rather be lucky than good any day."? So, there is always that element of luck both good or bad, that gave some pilots high scores, or ended the careers and lives of otherwise supremely skilled pilots, and keeping that in mind, I am curious as to which pilot (or pilots) from any nation could claim to be the absolute best. I'm talking about the guy(s) who had the ability to fly like gods. Individuals who seemed to posess almost supernatural talent and would/could wade into formations of enemy aircraft and, with deceptive ease, decimate them and and strike fear into the hearts of their enemies.

In summary, who was the god of air combat maneuvering? Feel free to provide a short list of the top few. I realize that this whole topic might be pointless, as it could develop into some sort of "angles" versus "energy" debate, but even so, I'm curious to hear some opinions.

von_Albert
06-27-2004, 04:31 AM
I know there have been endless debates about who was the best pilot and these usually fall into the trap of couting arial victories, i.e. Hartmann was the best! He was good, but also a relatively cautious pilot, who firmly believed in the practice of living to fight another day. Thus, a few slightly more enlightened people point out the fact that total victory numbers are also relative to time spent in theatre, available targets to actually shoot down, etc.

Others then might say, that it was Marsaille who was the best, because the man's shooting skills were legendary, and all his victories were in the west, etc.

However, I'm interested in hearing some opinions on who you guys think the VERY best pilot was.

Was is Yeager who once said, "I'd rather be lucky than good any day."? So, there is always that element of luck both good or bad, that gave some pilots high scores, or ended the careers and lives of otherwise supremely skilled pilots, and keeping that in mind, I am curious as to which pilot (or pilots) from any nation could claim to be the absolute best. I'm talking about the guy(s) who had the ability to fly like gods. Individuals who seemed to posess almost supernatural talent and would/could wade into formations of enemy aircraft and, with deceptive ease, decimate them and and strike fear into the hearts of their enemies.

In summary, who was the god of air combat maneuvering? Feel free to provide a short list of the top few. I realize that this whole topic might be pointless, as it could develop into some sort of "angles" versus "energy" debate, but even so, I'm curious to hear some opinions.

Extreme_One
06-27-2004, 04:50 AM
I'm going to say Jeffrey Quill.

He was Supermarine's chief test pilot.

Yes it's an unusual choice but if you read any books on the history of the Spitfire then you'll realise just how much he contributed.

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the USAAF & RAF campaign folders here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-10.html).

Download "North and South" including the Japanese speech-pack here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-12.html). *NEW*

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Cajun76
06-27-2004, 05:02 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=795102754


About a two weeks ago, this started and lasted about a week. Some of the info is good, and some is just downright poo. Hans-Joachim Marseille would be one of my front runners, though. I also like the P-47 boys, Johnson and Gabreski. Good pilots mixing it up with the best the enemy had to offer in P-47 Thunderbolts. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

DuxCorvan
06-27-2004, 05:09 AM
Who's calling me? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

PBNA-Boosher
06-27-2004, 05:50 AM
Best in which way? A soviet pilot, a woman, Olga Lisikova, landed an Li-2 (C-47) in a factory field not much bigger than a football field when her plane ran out of fuel because the mechanic had forgotten to fill the tanks.. It was fully loaded with cargo, the crew, and two passengers. Now that takes skill!

VF-17_Jolly
06-27-2004, 05:56 AM
Apparently Gordon Cooper

http://www.skyknights.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/jolly.jpg

CPS_Lav69
06-27-2004, 06:00 AM
Amelia Earhart hands down.

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Double Trouble

F19_Ob
06-27-2004, 06:00 AM
That is an impossible question to answer. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But what about refrasing it to; WHO WAS THE ABSOLUTELY LUCKIEST PILOT? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

OldMan____
06-27-2004, 06:41 AM
Of course its Darth vader.. controling that ship with only that SINGLE twist button he managed to shot down so many X-wings....

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Tully__
06-27-2004, 07:02 AM
This will always be a matter of opinion and in many cases the opinions will differ as different people use different criteria. I have a soft spot for Douglas Bader and Joachim Marseille, both of whom showed great talent, but there must be many other candidates equally well or better suited to the title.

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Salut
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PBNA-Boosher
06-27-2004, 07:09 AM
Hmm... I could go on...

Nadia Popova survived the war flying outdated Po-2 biplanes and flying over 850 bombing missions! She was never wounded.

Like Tully said, it all depends on your point of view.

HARD_Sarge
06-27-2004, 07:15 AM
I would have to look it up (havn't seen that book for a while) but there was a Yank pilot in the PTO, who had GE, IT, JP and a US flag on his scoreboard panel

he had a great story, was in the MED and got some kills vs the GE and IT, then later was sent to the PTO and got him a few JP Planes to go along with his other kills

then one day while flying, he seen what he thought was a DC-3 (AC-47 ?) but as he was over a JP Island and this plane was coming in to land, figured it must be a JP plane, maybe it was captured or something

so he dives on it as it is lineing up on the runway, fires a few bursts into the engines and the plane banks away from landing and heads out to sea, where it finally splashes in, away from the island, a US sub comes along and picks up the crew, turns out it was a US plane that had gotten lost and thought it was landing back at it's own base, even worse, his girlfriend who was a nurse, was on board

so not only does he shoot down a US plane, he also shot down his Girlfriend !

LOL if them hollywood guys would make a movie about him, every one would complain about how ******ed Hollywood is

HARD_Sarge

Atomic_Marten
06-27-2004, 07:23 AM
Well... Jurij Aleksejevich Gagarin, Amelia Earhart, von Richthofen... lot of them. Luckiest pilots: Hartmann of course(No1!) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, Hans Ulrich Rudel.... etc. Question is fairly unprecise and so it's impossible to give a precise answer.

And yes, I agree that only cautious pilots can survive the war. Also they must be lucky a bit of course. We may discuss how Hartmann was able to achieve that score, but he do not have to be the best --- simply a dose of luck, clear mind in dangerous situations, and he surely know when to give up the fight. That are the characteristics of all aces.

Chuck_Older
06-27-2004, 08:02 AM
John Boyd

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

_Bootlegger_
06-27-2004, 08:25 AM
My vote goes to George "Buzz" Beurling.

I need to find myself a girl whose name doesn't end in JPEG !!!

Chuck_Older
06-27-2004, 08:34 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cdn.401SHRIKE:
My vote goes to George "Buzz" Beurling.

QUOTE]

That's a good nomination too.

Can I give an alternate pilot as best?

Mark Hanna

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

DuxCorvan
06-27-2004, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
Of course its Darth vader.. controling that ship with only that SINGLE twist button he managed to shot down so many X-wings....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was not Darth Vader. It was Darth Monobrow using a trim on a slider... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Dammerung
06-27-2004, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
_John Boyd_
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He NEVER lost. Not even once. He defeated all of his opponents starting in front of them in less than 40 seconds. Most were under 20 seconds. He is the reason the F-15 and F-16 are as good as they are, and the reason we even talk about energy fighting. When you see the Pugatchev Cobra maneuver, know that Boyd developed a similiar move in the 50s and defeated all of his opponents with it. His accomplishments are too many to mention in a forum as both a strategist and a fighter pilot.

Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...

von_Albert
06-27-2004, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In summary, who was the god of air combat maneuvering? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the question is quite precise. Granted there are numerous pilots who have at one time done some amazing things, but we're talking about ACM.

LStarosta
06-27-2004, 09:12 AM
There is no ABSOLUTE BEST pilot... I have so many pilots that I admire and have the utmost respect of, and they all have interesting tales and stories. I don't know who to pick, though, since it's hard to choose...



Witold Urbanowicz- Born March 30, 1908. Not only a great pilot, but a great man as well. During the Sept. Attack on Poland, Urbanowicz was a flight instructor at the Polish Air Force Academy in Deblin. He and his air cadets were tasked in the ferrying of new Hurricane and Ms.406 aircraft to Poland. Unfortunately, they could not get the aircraft back to Poland due to the German Blitzkrieg. He returned to Poland, but was captured by the Soviets. He escaped, and rejoined his unit in Romania. He, along with his cadets, was then captured and interned by Romanian forces. He then escaped the internment camp and left Romania. He then eventually proceeded to England where he joined RAF 145 Squadron. In this squadron he scored 2 victories. He was then transferred to RAF 303 Polish Sqd. On Sept. 7th, 1940, Major Krasnodebski, the current squadron commander of 303 was badly burned in a battle over the English Channel. Due to Urbanowicz's exemplary English and administrative skills, he was promoted to 303 Squadron Leader. He was now the RAF's youngest squadron commander at the rank of Lieutenant. He would then proceed to lead the most successful squadron in the Battle of Britain, and would score 13 more victories over Europe. At this point, he had 15 confirmed victories, and was not once touched by an enemy bullet. Afterwards, Urbanowicz was appointed to 11FG HQ, and then on June 1, 1941, was appointed commander of the 1st Polish Fighter Wing. Afterwards, General Sikorski sent him to the USA and appointed him as the assistant of the Air Attache in the Polish Embassy. In September of 1943, he quit his diplomatic duties and took up an offer of flying on the Chinese-Japanese front with many American Volunteer Group "Flying Tigers" in the 75th FS, of the 14th USAF stationed at Kunming (Flying P-40 Kittyhawks). Officially, Urbanowicz scored 4 confirmed victories, but only two of them were deemed air victories since the other two were made during a dogfight over a Japanese airfield. Urbanowicz was said to have made about 6 more air victories and three more ground kills over Japanese Zero's, unfortunately those have not been confirmed by another pilot.

Here's an excerpt of an account of a battle he had with a Zero as he was flying wingman to Major "Tex" Hill.



"We arrived over Hong Kong. Over the center of the city we were attacked by two "Zeros". I made a turn and got one of the planes into my gun sight. But the Japanese pilot proved to be a master in combat. He not only got out of my gun sight, but even tried to get on my tail. From this position any fighter is defenseless. Except for the pilot's talents, in that case the maneuverability of the machine is decisive. ...

The Japanese pilot managed to place himself in a good position to fire a couple of times. I slipped out. But when I, at last, caught the silhouette of his plane from behind in my gun sight, he panicked and started making an acrobation, to shake me off his tail, to get rid of the danger of awaiting death.

Tex disappeared somewhere with his 'Yellows', I was left alone. One of us has to die: the Japanese or me. I prefer it to be him. To me, these few minutes felt like hours. We fought just above the Hong Kong roofs, a crowd of street walking people stood and watched our combat with great interest. Rickshaws stopped, passengers had a duty-free show. But we both fought to save our lives. ...

I had to shoot him down. I pulled the stick and kept steering with my leg, to keep the horizon visible over my engine panel (I was in a sharp turn). The Japanese pilot had flown too fast and was unable to turn as sharply as me. He ought to have prevented that, but he realized this too late. And now he came directly into my gun sight. At a distance of 50 meters behind him, I pressed the firing button.

My guns remained silent. I saw darkness in my eyes and felt hot all over my body, just like if I had fallen into boiling water. 'Oh, bloody hell, the guns jammed!' I exclaimed loudly. I pressed firing button again - and again there was nothing. I turned absolutely furious. I followed the Japanese, but I couldn't shoot him down. There was no exit. But the Japanese acted very nervous, feeling that this was the last moment of his life.

Suddenly he made a fast barrel and in this moment opened his left gear. The instruments had to show this to him. He thought his plane was hit. Then, at full throttle he went down towards the rice fields. I kept following him with jammed guns. I had him exactly in the center of my gun sight. Only one shell, damn, only one!

The Japanese pilots lost his last nerves. He didn't know, that my guns are jammed. He only knew one thing, that death was hanging over him. Now he followed the instinct of all ground-bound animals: he escaped downwards, lowered his landing gear and attempted to land. He must have been crazy. At high speed he slammed into the ground, the plane crashed and exploded in fire.

I'm free, the joy I feel is unlimited."

Urbanowicz, Witold. Latajace Tygrysy [Flying Tigers]. Wydawnictwo Lubelskie, Lublin 1980. 122-124.


There you have it, an extremely shortened story of one of my favorite fighter pilots of all time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!

GreyBeast
06-27-2004, 09:19 AM
Steve Austin, Astronaut, the legendary "Six Million Dollar Man"

Cajun76
06-27-2004, 09:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Who was the absolute best Pilot?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, if I answer just this question, it would be Orville Wright. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

heywooood
06-27-2004, 11:25 AM
http://www.askmen.com/men/entertainment_60/pictures_60/folder_1/ben_affleck/ben_affleck_150c.jpg

not this guy?....

Then I vote for Dux Monobrow with his flaps on a mousewheel and trim on a slider.

http://www.cmgww.com/stars/feldman/images/photo_4.jpg

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/3tbm_avenger.jpg
Goin'fishin'

heywooood
06-27-2004, 11:31 AM
seriously - my personal favorite fighter pilot was this guy..
http://www.airminded.net/n28/Rickenb_Nieup.jpg
Eddie Rickenbacker 94th Aero Sq.
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/3tbm_avenger.jpg
Goin'fishin'

DuxCorvan
06-27-2004, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
Of course, if I answer just this question, it would be Orville Wright.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. The Flyer design has been researched, and it was really faulty in its 1903 setup. It was so unstable it is a miracle he took off and did not kill himself. But he got it. And, who taught him? Natural skill and so much time with those also potentially lethal gliders they made...

Heywoooood, yes, you have known me. I'm the guy in the upper pic. Sorry for using your portrait as my avatar... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

jensenpark
06-27-2004, 04:49 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cdn.401SHRIKE:
My vote goes to George "Buzz" Beurling.

QUOTE]

That's a good nomination too.

Can I give an alternate pilot as best?

Mark Hanna



Buzz it a great choice - you'll get no arguement from me!
But I would have to say Billy Barker...Cdn pilot from WW1...from everything I've read he was simply the best. I think even Billy Bishop commented on it. Tragically, like many others, he found no real place for himself after the war and ended up dying very young in a plane crash...

http://www.corsair-web.com/thistler/rtfoxint.jpg
Buzz Beurling flying his last sortie over Malta, Oct.24, 1942

Slickun
06-27-2004, 07:57 PM
Hans Ulrich Rudel.

bun-bun195333
06-27-2004, 08:06 PM
Dennis Quaid

http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg

WTE_Galway
06-27-2004, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HARD_Sarge:
I would have to look it up (havn't seen that book for a while) but there was a Yank pilot in the PTO, who had GE, IT, JP and a US flag on his scoreboard panel
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clive Caldwell the top scoring RAAF pilot in WWII also had german italian and japanese victories

he was also involved in the scandal about aussie spitfire pilots ferrying smuggled whisky to the yanks at moratai in their Spits and was aring leader in the RAAF "strike" were aussie pilots were protesting at the use of highly skilled Australian Spitfire pilots to do dangerous ground attack missions in a plane unsuited to ground attack (apparently so the US pilots could run up more air to air kills)

Korolov
06-27-2004, 08:37 PM
John Boyd, a master of aerial tactics and simulated dogfights.

Daniel Roberts, a true squadron leader and team player.

Richard Bong, the Erich Hartmann of the Pacific.

A. Pokrishkin, kicked *** in a "inferior" fighter.

V. I. Ivanovich, 15th Soviet Ace.

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

crazyivan1970
06-27-2004, 09:03 PM
Hands down this guy:

http://a1259.g.akamai.net/f/1259/5586/1d/images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10102000/10102136.jpg

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

wayno7777
06-27-2004, 11:07 PM
Harrison Ford http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
No seriously, Tony LeVier Lockheed test pilot.
Or Charles A. Lindberg http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/Dux_Wreck.jpg
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Dawg-of-death
06-27-2004, 11:14 PM
RBJ?

Bad-MF(Mongrel Fighter) AKA .......Dawg-of-death

WTE_Galway
06-27-2004, 11:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawg-of-death:
RBJ?

Bad-MF(Mongrel Fighter) AKA .......Dawg-of-death
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


yeah RBJ was 1337 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

with or without the slider trim RBJ was the man

Flying_Merkava
06-28-2004, 12:41 AM
The best pilot meaning most kills is the one that flew a gay plane and barfed a fatboy.

Kuikueg
06-28-2004, 08:18 AM
Well I don't know if he was the best, some say he was and his realms make him a candidate for the title, although he never saw combat. I am talking about Alex Henshaw, test pilot for Supermarine, among other things, like flying records breaker and one of the bravest men I have heard of. He has always had a place in my simmer's heart since I knew of him. If gifted flying ability, bravery and luck are factors in this contest, Henshaw is undoubtly a candidate for it.

Here is one of his adventures, scanned because typing makes me so lazy...

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v293/Queequeg/IL2FB/alex.jpg

S!

Kuikueg

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v293/Queequeg/IL2FB/jg27_gunsynch2.jpg
That's the only way I can hit anything.

darkhorizon11
06-28-2004, 08:31 AM
I don't know his name but probably the Polish guy who at the start of WW2 brought down a cocky bf109 pilot by outmaneuvering him and forcing him to crash. The other pilot harassing him just gave up.

No thats smarts. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

LStarosta
06-28-2004, 09:21 AM
LoL, that would sound a lot like Sgt. Karubin, and this was during the Battle of Britain. He ran out of ammo, so he chased after the 109, at almost treetop level altitude. He got to a point where he was right above him, and he kept pushing his plane lower and lower, towards the 109, till Jerry lost his mind and crashed into the ground.

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!

CRSutton
06-28-2004, 04:14 PM
Jimmy Doolittle hands down.

First pilot on record to attempt an outside loop. Did it too.

Flew the Gee Bee racer and lived to talk about it. Won the race too IIRC.