PDA

View Full Version : somebody tell me how to fly 109 after patch released



XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:23 AM
109g/k have no advantage in any aspect after the patch released .no fast climbrate ,low acceleration,can not turn with VVS a/c,more energy bleeding.G10 can not climb now.G14 climbrate even wore than G2with Mw50, G6 is dead,yesterday i fly k4 vs a la7 on net.at the beginning we have equal energy at 3000m.we both try to catch others six but obviously i can not turn with it .i decide to climb away .but finally la7 overclimb my k4 and shoot me down.i really dont not know how to fly them now.mabye i am crappy pilot so can anyone teach me how to fly them now?

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:23 AM
109g/k have no advantage in any aspect after the patch released .no fast climbrate ,low acceleration,can not turn with VVS a/c,more energy bleeding.G10 can not climb now.G14 climbrate even wore than G2with Mw50, G6 is dead,yesterday i fly k4 vs a la7 on net.at the beginning we have equal energy at 3000m.we both try to catch others six but obviously i can not turn with it .i decide to climb away .but finally la7 overclimb my k4 and shoot me down.i really dont not know how to fly them now.mabye i am crappy pilot so can anyone teach me how to fly them now?

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:28 AM
Now that the K4 becomed useless you ca either change it with G2(wich is fantasticIMO) either youMUST have an E advantage.
I abbandoned the Kurfurst before the patch and I can tell yu how to shoot them down..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>
<center>A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:30 AM
Simple answer here is...

the late war Russian planes (Yak3, La5, La7, and late Yak 9s) were simply better than the 109s...and more numerous.

You do have to really insist on an alt advantage and some luck to survive. Or running into an overconfident or noob Ivan.

Or you can fly late 42 til end of 43, where there's a bit more parity.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:43 AM
Stiglr wrote:
- Simple answer here is...
-
- the late war Russian planes (Yak3, La5, La7, and
- late Yak 9s) were simply better than the 109s...and
- more numerous.
-
- You do have to really insist on an alt advantage and
- some luck to survive. Or running into an
- overconfident or noob Ivan.
-
- Or you can fly late 42 til end of 43, where there's
- a bit more parity.
-
-

BS

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:48 AM
Jaws2002 wrote:
-
- Stiglr wrote:
-- Simple answer here is...
--
-- the late war Russian planes (Yak3, La5, La7, and
-- late Yak 9s) were simply better than the 109s...and
-- more numerous.
--
-- You do have to really insist on an alt advantage and
-- some luck to survive. Or running into an
-- overconfident or noob Ivan.
--
-- Or you can fly late 42 til end of 43, where there's
-- a bit more parity.
--
--
-
- BS
-
-

NOOB:O

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:50 AM
Jaws2002, You get a doctorate for that theory? That's some impressive reasoning.

<center>
Read the <a href=http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm>IL2 FAQ</a>
Got Nimrod? Try the unofficial <A HREF=http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=4870c2bc08acb0f130e5e3396d08d595>OT forum</A>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:00 AM
Two things to do with late war Bf-109's. Do not try and get into a turning fight with a VVS plane...its not going to do you much good. Although you may be able to stay with them around the first couple of turns you pay so heavily with energy loss that you aren't doing yourself a favor.

You need to attack the Russian planes with energy advantage. Diving in on them or at least with heavy acceleration. Use the vertical...despite your claim, the K-4 and the G-10 are still decent climbers and especially if you already have a bit of momentum going.

If you are low on energy and they catch you with your pants down then yes...you're done for. But late war 109s are very good, and like any plane, attacking with the advantage or run with whatever energy advantage you have left. Remember that the Russian planes tend to accelerate faster it seems...but you should be able to build up enough speed to get away.

In particular...a light dive seems to get me around 700 km/h in the K-4. You don't have much pitch control but you can be rest assured that the La-7 on your tail is going to start loosing his ailerons or something else important http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:14 AM
it seems that the only tatics can be used on later lufwaffe a/c is hit and run.but the sound radar system in FB make it impossble .there even has no frei jagd mission in VOW .

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:30 AM
You guys must be flying different planes than me. I don't see any difference in the K4 climb rate. I've seen others do tests, and said the same thing. The top speed is where it belongs, maybe 10 km/h slow, but it still climbs the same.

Unless your talking about how it climbed before at 103% throttle. That was a bug, and it made the 109's completely overmodeled.

The La7 was always a feared plane for the LW. It should be good. Put the better pilot in either plane, and he'll win.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:07 AM
Buzz, I totaly agree!

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:16 AM
either the 109 has lost performance, or all others have gained it. And I agree it has lost all it's advantages.

Am I complaining?

The only time I've ever complained about FM's is after patches, when things change drastically. Then I ask the question "how could have they been so wrong before?" Well I'm asking that question now with the 109. Pre-patch the 109 late G's and K were easily the best plane in the game after the patch they are nothing more then average.





http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/Waste-banner3.gif (http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=4)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:41 AM
VW-IceFire wrote:
the K-4 and the G-10 are still decent
- climbers and especially if you already have a bit of
- momentum going.


in qucik mission G10 climbrate slower than la7 even over 3000m
everybody know 109s high speed control is very wore like cement stick,people say attack vvs a/c with energy advantage.ya that is sure. dive in on them and then what
.because the 109s bad highspeed stick control you seldom have fire chance.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 10:18 AM
Well, frankly... i'd just assume see less people flying the K-4, because i don't like the "flavor of the moment" accusations... but here 'goes:

The K-4 is still an excellent plane (IMO, the best). It climbs just as well (better than any plane in IL-2 FB 1.1b... yes, really), and has the single most deadly combat cannon in the game (discrediting the 37 and 45mm cannons because of low muzzle velocity and slow trajectory speeds).

In short, you can do all of these things to promise yourself a loss in a K-4:

1) fly below 4.5k before engaging in combat
2) TnB'ing virtually anything for more than 2 cycles
3) trying to "Snap" into Tailstands, expecting the same rocketship action as in 1.0
4) Trying to outrun virtually any plane besides the P-47 and maybe some others.

Here's what you can do to give yourself an advantage / not be as likely to get hammered:

1) always fly above 4.5k
2) never TnB... ever
3) Dive on unsuspecting bandits w/ engine idle, and wait untill your so close you can smell their exhaust to fire
4) Dive away from ANY VVS plane except the P-47, if you find yourself in a troublesome situation (break speed of K-4 being roughly 890 kmph).
5) Hit someone w/ a Mk 108, sit back, and enjoy.


Hope this helped somewhat.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 11:06 AM
I dont fly late 109s, but 109G-2 is just a dream. Learn to do spiral climb, nothing can match this.



<center>http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/pictures/sig_il2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 11:46 AM
The G2 has always been a dream to fly 8) Favorite plane since Il-2 vanilla ^_^

<center>http://www.habwusifu.com/pics/fw.jpeg
</center>
-On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:33 PM
Now that the 109's engine is a lot worse and you lose a lot of energy from sharp turns, i figured out that you just can't do sharp turns any more with the 109s because you can't recover your altitude and airspeed as fast as before the patch. You just have to go slower and remember that your engine is still one of the better ones in the game.
Don't give up, soon you will get used to the handling like I did.

-McTriggerhappy

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 01:22 PM
The La-7 was dangerous because it could catch escaping German aircrafts due to its high speed. The only German fighter it couldn't catch down low was the Fw 190D-9. The La-7 after the patch has an initial climbrate of 29m/sec, some 5m/sec more than in real life. But it's climbrate decreases rappidly above 3000m. Exploit that!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:00 PM
Seems to be all the 109s and 190s are alot better then vvs especially the 190s, 190s can now do the most unrealistic manuevers online which has made me stop flying in servers with external views, they see you on your 6 now and stick yank and they are impossible to hit when they do it now. The mig 3u is the same way.


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:42 PM
AAHHH just 5 min ago in a dogfightserver... my G14 was outturned by a FW190A5!!! he kept his plane a bit faster and had a better turning per sec. I wasn´t able to get closer or to turn harder I have a ntrk of this /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ... a few minutes later I found myselfe behind the same 190.. It outclimbed me with MW50 on and Rad closed.. Now I need a coffee!!!
The 190 was better in many aspects than a Bf, I never doubt this, but outturning or outclimbing?!?!?!!??

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:49 PM
jurinko wrote:
"I dont fly late 109s, but 109G-2 is just a dream. Learn to do spiral climb, nothing can match this."

I was out spiral climbed in a G-14 by a P-39 the other night, I wept softly to myself.

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/Waste-banner3.gif (http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=4)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:56 PM
The 109 has been toned down from before the patch period, its not as fast (far from it) and its maneuverability is now crap. All it can do now is BnZ, but u might as well be flying a 190 for that cause its downright better at that now with its high speed turns and .... high speeds. The K-4 isn't as fast... isn't as maneuverable and quite frankly, it may climb better but since the other planes are faster... it really doesn't help much.

So unless u play FR and suprise ur enemy with ur K-4 then...
so I guess I play medium settings... and don't have a chance against... other decent pilots in the other planes.

The way I flew was just get alt going to the opponents airbase, no circling ur field unless the fight is extremly high or anything like that (use common sense).. and I did rather well. If you fought someone on even E level as you u could take them unless they were in the same plane as you then it would be a real tussel. Now if you fight someone with even E as you in the K-4 while they are in almost any other plane... u will get caught, u will overheat, u will climb, and you will die, and don't even think about turning even at 300.. or its snap roll city... I thought this plane was a decent medium speed fighter (decent meaning u could turn without snap rolling when u pull back on the stick)... well aparently that theory is blown all to bits.

This plane was good as an even E fighter now... unless u are BnZin from 1000 alt above ur opponent seems its not so good anymore. Wacky, oh and I am not even complaining about the britalness anymore of this planes Cable cuts and wings and tail just falling off with machingun fire anymore. This happened because the plane was just darn good and needed to even it out.... Seems we still have planes made from paper and sticks and now can't even outrun anything to save our lives.

secret to Low E fighting in a 109... become a sameri and learn to head on I guess.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:02 PM
Well how to fly a german plane?

Cockpit removed, seatbeld unfastened ready to bail out.

Any other question?

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:23 PM
I really don't understand the overheating problems in the Bf109s. To me, it reminds me of the early versions of IL-2, where even a short duration of WEP usage quickly started giving you the gutt-wrenching 'threats'.

The MW50, while not that different from the Water-Methanol mix USAAF used, was effectively one of the most efficient anti-detonant systems to be seen in that era, with a safe run time of near 10 minutes straight!

...

However, aside that fact, in general I am with BuzzU on this. The late-war Bf109s in FBv1.0, was simply too good. Now, with the FBv1.1, there are many factors working against the Bf109s - some may be fishy, but most are logical.

1) The overheat(this one is suspicious) issues prevent prolonged use of the engine on emergency power. Unfortunately, the MW50 accounts for at least 10~15% increase in performance in the late-war Bf109s. The constant overheating is probably the largest inhibiting factor for the Bf109s.

2) The speeds are now corrected according to historic records. The La-7, accelerates faster than the late 109s, and are able to catch them. This fact is responsible in the aspect that the risk-management in low-alt engagements for the Bf109 has significantly grown. You can no longer just point to base and run away, when you make a mistake.

3) The difference in diving capabilities, also work against the Bf109s. The inferiority in dive acceleration, compared to the other planes, means the Bf109 will often need significant amount of time, even to catch a plane with slower max speed. Thus, the Bf109 will have to put itself through longer time of danger.

4) The controls locking up at high speeds, now mean that the Bf109s will have to manage its speed. That means, the E advantage via alt, cannot be transferred directly into a tactical advantage. It also means excessive E will be wasted and thrown away, and will not contribute to the plane by manifesting itself as speed.

...

Of these problems, in my personal opinion only 1) is fishy. 2), 3), 4) all make sense. Let's face it, the Bf109 is a problematic fighter, which the LW General staff have attempted to stop production(ie. Galland's lobby). As stated by Stiglr, the late-war Soviet fighters were a menace to deal with, highly specialized in low-alt combat.

It just takes more patience to really use the Bf109 now. In co-alt co-E situation, I wouldn't expect to defeat a La-7 if the pilot is in the same level as myself. Which, doesn't seem like its a wrong thing. But if you carefully manage your E, and use it aggressively, the Bf109s still a very powerful plane.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:30 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- Seems to be all the 109s and 190s are alot better
- then vvs especially the 190s, 190s can now do the
- most unrealistic manuevers online which has made me
- stop flying in servers with external views, they see
- you on your 6 now and stick yank and they are
- impossible to hit when they do it now. The mig 3u is
- the same way.

I know what you mean LeadSpitter. But it appears that those who have loved the 190 even since the beginning of IL2 doesn't want it to be this way either. I don't like it one bit, and so I have made big changes in the joystick settings. I have set them so that It more matches the pre-patch 190 in terms of rollrate. Elevator authority was excellent in real life but I have toned down that aswell. I can still black out but I can't pitch as rapidly. It's now a real pleasure to fly!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I will do more fine adjustments, but now it's good enough!

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:47 PM
It goes from being the best equivalent Energy fighter (exception of the 262, but its to fragile even moreso than the 109 to fight at same energy levels, tis dangerous)... to now becoming one of the worst same alt fighters in the game.... Thats a pretty big leap.

The 109 was the best bird in my mind (minus the Yak 9U) in IL-2.

The 109 in FB V1.0 out of box was the best plane minus the Me 262 in my mind.

Now... the only thing that keeps it on my list of flyables is the 30mm, but I might as well fly a yak 9T, bigger gun, just as fast almost, turns like a charm, man somethings foobar about my bird.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:11 PM
Um, my understanding is that the 109 flys best at less than 1000 meters.

In order to make it really perform, press your V key three times and then the G key three times.

Also, there's a bug that makes it fly even faster at 50% throttle.

Then again, I only fly VVS, so I could be slightly wrong.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:43 PM
Leadspitter --what exactly are you talking about concerning the fw "unrealistic" manuevers?
The highspeed stall characteristics?

The La5fn has the same characteristics only at a much slower speed.It dosnt stall period untill its speed gets to around 330-.The stick can be pulled back all the way with only slight grayout at speeds above that.

The roll my be too quick in fw,which may make the high-speed stall characteristics a little too fast.But I dont think the flipping on its back in a stall is unrealistic in itself.
And people who are doing it in a series are only killing their energy.All some vvs guy has to do is keep the energy advantage.Because low-speed stall in fw at low alt. is dangerous.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:13 PM
And I just took a yak3 for a ride.It seems to stall up past 400 or around there,and it does the controllable flip too.I think ur full of it.
I think you need to practice your aim.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:15 PM
LOL Dart /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


BA_Dart wrote:
- Um, my understanding is that the 109 flys best at
- less than 1000 meters.
-
- In order to make it really perform, press your V key
- three times and then the G key three times.
-
- Also, there's a bug that makes it fly even faster at
- 50% throttle.
-
- Then again, I only fly VVS, so I could be slightly
- wrong.
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-

Personally I prefer the G6/AS. In FB V1.0 it was seriously overmodelled and I don't think anyone noticed /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif now it is still competitive but not superior.

The Bf109 was an old design in 1944 - Fact
It suffered from having various 'heavy' modifications without a thorough re-design and re-think - Fact
The G6 was one of the leasy aerodynamic WW2 fighters - Fact
Ok the K-4 and G6/AS were better /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
The controls stiffened at high speeds - Fact
The cockpit was cramped & visibility was below par- Fact

I could go on.....

The late war Bf-109 was really an experten machine. It takes dedication and teamwork to be successful in the 109. You need to know and respect the 109's capabilities and her flaws -of which there are many.

Flying around in a heated dogfight server where there is always a fresh fighter waiting to kill you is not the ideal environment. Try taking off (with 100% fuel for a change) and climbing AWAY from the fight. Get to 6000M and then turn towards the fight. Let the engine cool on the way in and get a good idea of the fight. If you see an La7 near your height extend away (High Alt FM - Grrrr. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) and come back later.

Pick out the highest bandit and engage him - ALWAYS! If your attack fails (Jeez Mk108! how could you!!) then extend away - grab alt and try again. Take it easy. No harsh moves and don't overheat etc etc. Repeat until cleansed /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif When you are low on Fuel/Ammo/Patience - Extend and go home.

Oh - and one more thing.....
Don't get shot. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:27 PM
JG5_UnKle

Just a curious question. How do you beat the La7 that's doing the same thing as you?

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:07 PM
You don't Buzz.......

Your Wingman does /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:15 PM
Just kidding. The only way I have found to really keep on top of the La7 is to fight him at around 5000M - 6000M.

At high alt where you should have an advantage in the 109 you don't really /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Up at 8000M the La7 can loop around and do some amazing things, not many people fight up there though (shame) so don't notice how bad the high-alt FM is.

I find that at around 5000M the La drivers need to manage CEM more and you have more advantages than disadvantages. It is a fine balancing act and I need to check in V1.1 to be sure this is still the same. More of a compromise to FB's high-alt FM than anything else I'm afraid.

Alternatively get into a slow scissor fight and beat him that way (low speed moves..) - not recommended really /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:23 PM
U mean low speed manuevers like turning like a boat or... going into snap roll city, this plane doesn't manuever well at all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:34 PM
The 109 has overall good low speed handling and stability. I mean low speed scissors at between 250-300 kph.

This is by no means recommended though - only as a co-E last resort. Scissor, gain angles - force an overshoot and hit him with the 108 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Or dive away and watch as the La7 breaks apart at 700 Kph.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:40 PM
Altitude Lots of it !!!

Or take a F4 Or G2 & use the Combat flaps

Too fast & you cant turn with these late war ac Find the perfect Speed for maximum turnrate in your ac

I spank many latewar Russian ac with the 109F4 and all of them with 190a9 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif !!!

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 07:48 PM
not sure if we are in the same plane but there is no way to do scissors low speed in the 109... it turns like a boat at those speeds... like most planes.. but if you try to turn a bit faster it isn't gonna like it.. ur still doing the slowest scissors on the planet, its safer to run with scissors than do that.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 08:28 PM
Actually yes, the 109 is pretty crappy now at low speeds - maybe that needs looking at /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I have been so used to fighting with it at high speeds /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Historically it had good low speed handling. That doesn't have anything to do with FB though......

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 08:30 PM
rgr didn't mean to cut into you or anything, I am so disappointed with this patch myself to /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif As that was my ride.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 09:02 PM
Reinstall V.1 and forget about the so-called patch!

The climb ratio of the 109 is either downgraded to much or the P51 has been given too much. I don't know which.

I noticed something was wrong when I could not use the spiral climb (standard GAF 109G-6 jockey ploy)to get out of trouble anymore. I therefore did a simple test: AI P51D level head-on at 1000m. I pull up in a 250 km/h climb (Gustav should climb like a bird at 250) but lo and behold! The P51 executes a terrific turn then proceeds to slowly creep up on me and blast me! Not very realistic, since the P51 at about 3500 ft/min should be outclimbed by the 109G-6 at 4500 ft/m. In V.1 however, things seem to reflect the real thing since you actually can outclimb a P51.

Not a very scientific test I grant you but there is still something wrong with this picture!

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 10:08 PM
Holtzauge wrote:
- Reinstall V.1 and forget about the so-called patch!
-
- The climb ratio of the 109 is either downgraded to
- much or the P51 has been given too much. I don't
- know which.
-
- I noticed something was wrong when I could not use
- the spiral climb (standard GAF 109G-6 jockey ploy)to
- get out of trouble anymore. I therefore did a simple
- test: AI P51D level head-on at 1000m. I pull up in a
- 250 km/h climb (Gustav should climb like a bird at
- 250) but lo and behold! The P51 executes a terrific
- turn then proceeds to slowly creep up on me and
- blast me! Not very realistic, since the P51 at about
- 3500 ft/min should be outclimbed by the 109G-6 at
- 4500 ft/m. In V.1 however, things seem to reflect
- the real thing since you actually can outclimb a
- P51.
-
- Not a very scientific test I grant you but there is
- still something wrong with this picture!
-
-
-
-

First one must remember that the AI has a simplified FM, this allows Lavoshkins to roll like a Focke Wulf 190 for instance. It sounds to me that you aborted your acceleration and started a maximum climb with your 109 right away. The P-51 would however continue his acceleration and when pulling up after you his energy could be high enough to catch you as he executes a zoom climb. Instead continue accelerating and when you both meet, pull up, zoom climb to safety, and if this is not enough, level out at around 250-270km/h and start spiral climb, the P-51 won't stand a chance. But beware, thanks to it exceptionally clean airframe the P-51 has an excellent zoom climb!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 01:52 AM
Remember that the good maneuverability and high-E retention, good acceleration, becomes a double-edged sword in a scissoring fight. The problem often becomes "how slow can you go without stalling" when it comes to scissoring, and a plane that holds its E and cannot dump in in time, will suffer the consequences.

La-7s are tremendous performers, but that fact usually relates itself with people being very overconfident in it. Lead turns, chases, loops, they will try follow everything you do without much thinking, because they can. Thus setting them into a series of traps via scissoring, is not very difficult in many cases.

Many La-7 pilots prefer not to throttle back even when they have to - they either choose to run, or think even if an overshoot comes, they can just pull up and come back down. The real trick is in the latter case, luring them into an overshoot where they cannot just loop up and expect the 109 to not be able to follow.

..

The Bf109, IMO, still has good low speed handling. It is just that it's not 'tolerant' to those 'teensey bit more pull' now. In fact, that tendency is prevelent in all planes, which I presume, is behind people whining the HurriIIc or the Yak cannot turn anymore, despite they still do, and very well.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 02:00 AM
Holtzauge wrote:
- Reinstall V.1 and forget about the so-called patch!
-
- The climb ratio of the 109 is either downgraded to
- much or the P51 has been given too much. I don't
- know which.
-
- I noticed something was wrong when I could not use
- the spiral climb (standard GAF 109G-6 jockey ploy)to
- get out of trouble anymore. I therefore did a simple
- test: AI P51D level head-on at 1000m. I pull up in a
- 250 km/h climb (Gustav should climb like a bird at
- 250) but lo and behold! The P51 executes a terrific
- turn then proceeds to slowly creep up on me and
- blast me! Not very realistic, since the P51 at about
- 3500 ft/min should be outclimbed by the 109G-6 at
- 4500 ft/m. In V.1 however, things seem to reflect
- the real thing since you actually can outclimb a
- P51.
-
- Not a very scientific test I grant you but there is
- still something wrong with this picture!
-
-
-
-

manual pitch control

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 04:01 AM
johann_thor wrote:
-
- Holtzauge wrote:
-- Reinstall V.1 and forget about the so-called patch!
--
-- The climb ratio of the 109 is either downgraded to
-- much or the P51 has been given too much. I don't
-- know which.
--
-- I noticed something was wrong when I could not use
-- the spiral climb (standard GAF 109G-6 jockey ploy)to
-- get out of trouble anymore. I therefore did a simple
-- test: AI P51D level head-on at 1000m. I pull up in a
-- 250 km/h climb (Gustav should climb like a bird at
-- 250) but lo and behold! The P51 executes a terrific
-- turn then proceeds to slowly creep up on me and
-- blast me! Not very realistic, since the P51 at about
-- 3500 ft/min should be outclimbed by the 109G-6 at
-- 4500 ft/m. In V.1 however, things seem to reflect
-- the real thing since you actually can outclimb a
-- P51.
--
-- Not a very scientific test I grant you but there is
-- still something wrong with this picture!
--
--
--
--
-
- manual pitch control
-
-

use manual pitch means make engine working in overoutput condition(higher than 2800rpm) that is abnormal .that make it overheat more sooner.ya maybe can increase your accleration.but i think this could not improve 109s climbrate performance.