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Aero_Shodanjo
07-23-2004, 08:54 AM
Yesterday I "hopped in" to a Me163 Komet. Put difficulty setting to total novice (all options off) then fire up to 40km+ (that's a world record! Hehe).

I put the plane to vertical (90 degrees) dive and reached more than 2400 km/h. Then I fired the cannons.

Try it for yourself http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/Sig/a86d9f37.jpg

Aero_Shodanjo
07-23-2004, 08:54 AM
Yesterday I "hopped in" to a Me163 Komet. Put difficulty setting to total novice (all options off) then fire up to 40km+ (that's a world record! Hehe).

I put the plane to vertical (90 degrees) dive and reached more than 2400 km/h. Then I fired the cannons.

Try it for yourself http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/Sig/a86d9f37.jpg

kaa-butcherboy
07-23-2004, 09:52 AM
Does that Mean U can shoot Yourself Down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ButcherBoy

Manreaper
07-23-2004, 10:02 AM
What happened?

ruxtmp
07-23-2004, 10:07 AM
I have heard this happening with A-10s on rare occasion when they fire their cannons in a dive.

Franzen
07-23-2004, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manreaper:
What happened?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was bored http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

I get bored too, thanks for the new idea http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

WOLFMondo
07-23-2004, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ruxtmp:
I have heard this happening with A-10s on rare occasion when they fire their cannons in a dive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Theres no way an A10 could fly that fast!

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)
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Owlsphone
07-23-2004, 10:25 AM
The A-10 flies slower than many of these planes in Forgotten Battles.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Owlsphone/Sig.jpg
Vertically challenged since 1984.

Capt.LoneRanger
07-23-2004, 10:31 AM
It only happens to an A10, when it lags out... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

greets
Capt.LoneRanger


Why is 6 afraid of 7? Cause 7 8 9!

Abbuzze
07-23-2004, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ruxtmp:
I have heard this happening with A-10s on rare occasion when they fire their cannons in a dive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Do you hear this??? It´s your physics teacher rotating in his grave! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If a plane fly a certain speed also the nonefired bullets fly with the same speed, if it is fired now, it also got the additional cinetical energy of the gunpowder....

I./JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam%20neu.gif

Franzen
07-23-2004, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ruxtmp:
I have heard this happening with A-10s on rare occasion when they fire their cannons in a dive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Do you hear this??? It´s your physics teacher rotating in his grave! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If a plane fly a certain speed also the nonefired bullets fly with the same speed, if it is fired now, it also got the additional cinetical energy of the gunpowder....

I./JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam%20neu.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does the A10 have a rear-gunner? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Fritz Franzen

Dammerung
07-23-2004, 11:08 AM
Not possible, unless FB's physics are messed up. They said the same thing about Jet fighters, that they'd run into their own bullets.

Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...
The whole damn place is full of queers, navigators, and bombadiers...
Oh, there are no fighter pilots down in hell...

TheJoyStick
07-23-2004, 11:14 AM
Isn't that why the SR-71 blackbird doesn't have any ordnance? Cuz it outruns it's own bullets?

Franzen
07-23-2004, 11:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheJoyStick:
Isn't that why the SR-71 blackbird doesn't have any ordnance? Cuz it outruns it's own bullets?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Worf101
07-23-2004, 11:35 AM
If this were true, the rounds would never leave the chamber. You'd have insufficient force or velocity to overcome the surrounding planes inertia. If my College Physics serves me.

Da Worfster

"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything!"

Atomic_Marten
07-23-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kaa-butcherboy:
Does that Mean U can shoot Yourself Down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ButcherBoy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I that occasion you wouldn't shot yourself down, you would instead shot your bullets down. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

BinaryFalcon
07-23-2004, 11:43 AM
IIRC, I do remember reading about a freak case where that sort of thing happened, although for the life of me I can't locate the reference at the moment.

However, it wasn't a simple case of the plane "outrunning its own bullets", but more of a matter of pure (bad) luck.

The pilot in question had fired his guns while in a climb at reasonably high altitude, and then almost immediately after went into an extended, straight line dive. His shots followed a normal arc, as you'd expect them to, and his diving arc carried him right to the point where the bullets were coming back down through his altitude after coming back down from apogee.

It's basically like throwing a ball at a steep angle up into the air and then running forward several feet to arrive at the point where it will land and catch it before it hits the ground.

In any event, I believe there's an actual case of this having happened, but it's not based purely on the aircraft's speed.

Owlsphone
07-23-2004, 11:43 AM
The SR-71 doesnt have an ordinace because it doesn't need one. It flies mach 3 going from New York to Los Angeles in less than 1 hour. If you flew that fast in a jet, you're not worrying about shooting other planes down...The SR-71 is a spyplane and a great one at that.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Owlsphone/Sig.jpg
Vertically challenged since 1984.

Franzen
07-23-2004, 11:47 AM
I almost forgot, you can actually shoot yourself down in FB. It's not so easy though. I think I used the Me263 with the anti-anything nose cannon. Shoot straight up, empty the cannon. Wait just a little while and you'll see your shots coming back down. Of course there's a bit of a spread but if your lucky, you'll catch one.

When I noticed it, I thought it was just Russian humour. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
07-23-2004, 11:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Owlsphone:
The SR-71 doesnt have an ordinace because it doesn't need one. It flies mach 3 going from New York to Los Angeles in less than 1 hour. If you flew that fast in a jet, you're not worrying about shooting other planes down...The SR-71 is a spyplane and a great one at that.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Owlsphone/Sig.jpg
Vertically challenged since 1984.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The SR-71 didn't have guns because BnZ tactics weren't allowed. It wasn't such a good turnfighter also. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Fritz Franzen

Atomic_Marten
07-23-2004, 11:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
The SR-71 didn't have guns because BnZ tactics weren't allowed. It wasn't such a good turnfighter also. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif
Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess flaps wouldnt help mucho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Fliegeroffizier
07-23-2004, 12:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BinaryFalcon:
IIRC, I do remember reading about a freak case where that sort of thing happened, although for the life of me I can't locate the reference at the moment.....

...The pilot in question had fired his guns while in a climb at reasonably high altitude, and then almost immediately after went into an extended, straight line dive. His shots followed a normal arc, as you'd expect them to, and his diving arc carried him right to the point where the bullets were coming back down through his altitude after coming back down from apogee.

...In any event, I believe there's an actual case of this having happened, but it's not based purely on the aircraft's speed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't find the information on a google search, but it is true that this did happen, much as described by Binary Falcon. As best i can recall, I believe it was in the 1960's and that it was either a USAF F102 or F106 on a training mission.

Franzen
07-23-2004, 12:04 PM
That was another problem, the flaps would jam at Mach 2, right before the wings would vanish http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

Fritz Franzen

Cragger
07-23-2004, 12:06 PM
IIRC, the original design for the SR-71 did have armaments and IIRC I do think their was one variation of the prototype tested with weapons. But the realization was that it was pointless to arm such a craft being its low manuverabilty, unstable flight characteristics and it had no need to engage hostile aircraft as they and their weapons could not catch the SR-71 except from a head on launch.

http://redspar.com/redrogue/cragger_sig.jpg

Tully__
07-23-2004, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ruxtmp:
I have heard this happening with A-10s on rare occasion when they fire their cannons in a dive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Do you hear this??? It´s your physics teacher rotating in his grave! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If a plane fly a certain speed also the nonefired bullets fly with the same speed, if it is fired now, it also got the additional cinetical energy of the gunpowder....

I./JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam%20neu.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bullets slow down once they're fired, planes don't (all things going well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). After a while you'll be going faster than your bullets http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

christopher65
07-23-2004, 12:19 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Dont need to shoot myself down as I crash all the time!!!!!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v282/christopher65/rare%20planes/PortraitofaQueen.jpg

John_Stag
07-23-2004, 01:54 PM
It's only ever happened once in real life:

http://www.f-16.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=printpage&artid=152

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>:Corporal! Where are you taking those vultures?

Corporal: Officers to the mess, NCO's to the Guardroom, Sir!

:Like hell you are, they're responsible for all this, get them to clean it up!

Corporal: But what about the officers, Sir?

:Give 'em a bloody shovel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NegativeGee
07-23-2004, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cragger:
IIRC, the original design for the SR-71 did have armaments and IIRC I do think their was one variation of the prototype tested with weapons. But the realization was that it was pointless to arm such a craft being its low manuverabilty, unstable flight characteristics and it had no need to engage hostile aircraft as they and their weapons could not catch the SR-71 except from a head on launch.

http://redspar.com/redrogue/cragger_sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds like the YF-12 to me:

http://www.voodoo.cz/sr71/pic/yf122.jpg

YF-12 Experimental Interceptor (http://www.sr-71.org/blackbird/yf-12/)

Oh and that F-11.... talk about self-ownage http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Günther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

BlakJakOfSpades
07-23-2004, 02:51 PM
i thought i read in flight journal or somethin about that happening when they were testing the f-14, as i recall he was just flying straight but there may have been more details i've forgotten.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v344/BlakJakofSpades/sig.jpg
You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake.
Jeannette Rankin (1880 - 1973)

VOL_Hans
07-23-2004, 02:55 PM
I also thought I heard something mentioned about self-shootdowns with an early AIM-7 on F-4 Phantom's.

The missile would come off the rack, drop behind a bit, fire it's rocket, and hit the launching fighter!

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

BRASSTURTLE
07-23-2004, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fliegeroffizier:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BinaryFalcon:
IIRC, I do remember reading about a freak case where that sort of thing happened, although for the life of me I can't locate the reference at the moment.....

...The pilot in question had fired his guns while in a climb at reasonably high altitude, and then almost immediately after went into an extended, straight line dive. His shots followed a normal arc, as you'd expect them to, and his diving arc carried him right to the point where the bullets were coming back down through his altitude after coming back down from apogee.

...In any event, I believe there's an actual case of this having happened, but it's not based purely on the aircraft's speed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't find the information on a google search, but it is true that this did happen, much as described by Binary Falcon. As best i can recall, I believe it was in the 1960's and that it was either a USAF F102 or F106 on a training mission.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I rember my dad talking about an F-104 Starfighter shooting itself down. IIRC it was originally armed with .50cals http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, they then swithced to the Vulcan cannon
I can't say if any of this was true, just how it was told to me.

BRASSTURTLE
07-23-2004, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cragger:
IIRC, the original design for the SR-71 did have armaments and IIRC I do think their was one variation of the prototype tested with weapons. But the realization was that it was pointless to arm such a craft being its low manuverabilty, unstable flight characteristics and it had no need to engage hostile aircraft as they and their weapons could not catch the SR-71 except from a head on launch.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The original design, after the CIA A11 was the YF-12A. It was armed with AIM-4 Falcon missles. They could be fitted with nuclear warheads, making it MUCH easier to shoot yourself down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif The primary intent of the YF-12 was bomber interception & an air to air nuke would definitely clear out a bomber formation!

Covino
07-23-2004, 03:52 PM
To all those who say it's impossible to run into your own bullets, that would be true if there were no such thing as drag.
Sure the bullets would eject out of the barrel but after that, it would have no thrust to maintain its speed (and therefore, would rapidly slow down) while the plane would maintain thrust/speed and it is possible to run into your own bullets (although if they're MG's, the damage would be minimal to none.

DuxCorvan
07-23-2004, 04:59 PM
That's why Carl Lewis was the only sportman known not to spit or fart in a competition: spittings are subject to drag, and farts impulsed by a recordman's initial kinetic force could reach him and choke him.

Why do you think that Greek soldier died after the Battle of Marathon? The diet for Greek hoplites was rich in beans. That, combined with the Corintian helmet -so tight it impeded normal breathing- and sirtaki heart rythm, could be potentially lethal.

To know more about the topic:

'A bridge so fart: Warfare and bean diet', by Drumpey Gasmaker. Nashtee Editions; 1986.

'Marathon man was killed from his back', article by Stinky Blocknose, in 'The belly curve' magazine, May 1991.

'My secret, my thrust', unofficial Carl Lewis' biography, only available thru' the net.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Dolemite-
07-23-2004, 06:16 PM
Planes HAVE ran into their own bullets and shot themselves down. Chuch yeager talks about in his book. Anyone who has "Yeager" can look it up themselves.

___________________________________________
Flying on HL as {Dolemite}
http://www.talonse.com/supergreg.swf &lt;----- ya wont regret it

wayno7777
07-24-2004, 01:32 AM
Built a model of a YF-11A. It also had bays for 4 missiles. IIRC These were the prototypes. YF-11A and YF-12A. One of these was a two-seater.

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/FB%20shots/Aircraft/heinkel_219.jpg
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Willey
07-24-2004, 05:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
Bullets slow down once they're fired, planes don't (all things going well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). After a while you'll be going faster than your bullets http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And they drop down. You have to be really fast to catch them. Especially in a dive you'd rather not catch them. I noticed that back in ATF, going at very high speeds (Mach 2 or higher) and then firing the cannons. Instead of going far in front of me, bullets almost instantly fell down and I couldn't have hit things 200m in front of my plane.

Aero_Shodanjo
07-24-2004, 07:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manreaper:
What happened?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He was bored http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

I get bored too, thanks for the new idea http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Franzen, how do you know? lol...

Anyway, does anybody here have some sort of another funny things that can be done in playing FB?

And I wonder how fast I was going in Mach number (2400-2500 km/h). Though I believe Ive surpassed the sound barrier, but I dont think FB has the sonic boom sound in it.

Thank God it doesnt, Im a kind of afraid I'll blow my monitor away if it does. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Not to mention my ears. lol.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v351/Aero_Shodanjo/Sig/a86d9f37.jpg

Tully__
07-24-2004, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:

Anyway, does anybody here have some sort of another funny things that can be done in playing FB?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We've all flown under bridges (well nearly all) but how many have flown along one of the railway bridges that have beams over the tracks? I haven't but I've seen the screenies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

I slightly easier challenge, under bridges inverted....

I once saw a track from the original IL2 of someone flying backwards under a bridge....

There's been a thread here in the last couple of days discussing "indoor" air racing (tunnels constructed of chimneys & barrage balloons)...

One sided DF servers where the aim is to have the highest negative score (deathmatch style, shoot anything that moves http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)...

Rockets only DF server... no guns allowed....

Bombers only DF server or coop, TB3's v. TB3's. This one is a hoot.... works best as a coop so the gunner positions can all be manned. I haven't tried it in He111's, that could be fun too...

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

Franzen
07-24-2004, 09:53 AM
Well, I parked my IL-2 nose first in a hanger once and as guyz would appear in their shiny new aircraft I'd giv'em short bursts from the gunner's position. Not enough to kill them but enough to stop them from flying. The best part was I was hard to see so they couldn't figure out who or what was shooting them. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

Here's an idea, fly the Mistel offline and look for the AI enemy. Release the Ju88 and see if the enemy take the bait.

Another that's funny. Start the Mistel mission in single missions. As soon as the mision starts count to 4 and release the mistel. You'll down about 6 planes and hear them all screaming. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

I really do get bored sometimes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Fritz Franzen

theRealAntEater
07-27-2004, 03:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes, an airplane can hit itself.
Back in 1956 a Grumman F11F-1 Tiger was hit after fireing two bursts from it's cannons. After the first 4-second burst the plane went into a shallow dive during wich it fired out the rest of the ammo. Bottoming out on 7000' the plane flew through the trajectory of the first burst and was struck by three bullets. One was after the crash found in the first compressor stage of the engine.

The reason is simple: After leaving the gun nozzle, the bullets quickly loose speed due to air drag and start to drop. The plane picked up speed during the dive, and the F11 happened to be at the wrong place at the time when the ordnance fell over it.

The pilot, Grumman test pilot Tom Attridge, climed into the history books with this performance!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Found by googling.

Jazz-Man
07-27-2004, 04:10 AM
Use the bridges that the FMB gives you, and build a course. I've done a 5km stretch of them winding around in a Gladiator http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!
William "Jazz-Man" Katz
Squadron Batman
RAF No.74 Squadron
www.raf74.com (http://www.raf74.com)
http://home.sou.edu/~katzw/images/signature.jpg