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View Full Version : To all you guys that call yourselves Aces: Read this.



Col_Tibbetts
05-17-2004, 09:23 AM
I know Gibbage posted this already but it really opened my eyes and put things into perspective. I was flying my lovely P38 and I racked up five kills. I thought, whoa, I haven't been killed yet. I guess I am an Ace! Well read this...

3. As a typical case to demonstrate my point, let us assume that we have a pilot fresh out of flying school with about a total of twenty-five hours in a P-38, starting out on a combat mission. He is on a deep ramrod, penetration and target support to maximum endurance. He is cruising along with his power set at maximum economy. He is pulling 31" Hg and 2100 RPM. He is auto lean and running on external tanks. His gun heater is off to relieve the load on his generator, which frequently gives out (under sustained heavy load). His sight is off to save burning out the bulb. His combat switch may or may not be on. Flying along in this condition, he suddenly gets "bounced", what to do flashes through his mind. He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main. So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches {valves} to main - turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight. At this point, he has probably been shot down or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.

That is from a commanding officer in the heat of WWII. See the thread about the P38 air show video for more. It would be nice if all that stuff were modelled in FB. Then I could see how good I really am. No matter how good I think I get in this game I will always be a noob if all that were implemented.

Food for thought...

Col_Tibbetts

Col_Tibbetts
05-17-2004, 09:23 AM
I know Gibbage posted this already but it really opened my eyes and put things into perspective. I was flying my lovely P38 and I racked up five kills. I thought, whoa, I haven't been killed yet. I guess I am an Ace! Well read this...

3. As a typical case to demonstrate my point, let us assume that we have a pilot fresh out of flying school with about a total of twenty-five hours in a P-38, starting out on a combat mission. He is on a deep ramrod, penetration and target support to maximum endurance. He is cruising along with his power set at maximum economy. He is pulling 31" Hg and 2100 RPM. He is auto lean and running on external tanks. His gun heater is off to relieve the load on his generator, which frequently gives out (under sustained heavy load). His sight is off to save burning out the bulb. His combat switch may or may not be on. Flying along in this condition, he suddenly gets "bounced", what to do flashes through his mind. He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main. So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches {valves} to main - turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight. At this point, he has probably been shot down or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.

That is from a commanding officer in the heat of WWII. See the thread about the P38 air show video for more. It would be nice if all that stuff were modelled in FB. Then I could see how good I really am. No matter how good I think I get in this game I will always be a noob if all that were implemented.

Food for thought...

Col_Tibbetts

F19_Ob
05-17-2004, 09:52 AM
Hehe....My guess is that there would be fewer aces if we had those features in fb. A lot fewer simmers too.

jobace
05-17-2004, 09:56 AM
i would love to see a sim where i could perform al those operations.
it would be the ultimate sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
yes indeed, food for thought.
thanx for posting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

Mirtma
05-17-2004, 09:58 AM
Well said!

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/McMatt/sig_LP.jpg
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Athlon 2000 XP+
1024 Mb DDram
Sapphire Radeon 9600/256
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TgD Thunderbolt56
05-17-2004, 10:03 AM
I am NOT an ace, but this sim allows me to live vicariously and imagine (even if just a little) what it was like to fly one of these warbirds.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

Red_Russian13
05-17-2004, 10:09 AM
I agree, it would be nice if they were options, yes. But just that, options.

Red Russian

georgeo76
05-17-2004, 10:09 AM
Brings the advantages of the automatic controls on Du fighters in to sharp contrast don't it?

FA_Maddog
05-17-2004, 10:17 AM
You will need more than one keyboard to operate all the switches, levers, and dials of a real fighter plane. I have trouble with what I have now. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

F19_Ob
05-17-2004, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thunderbolt56:
I am NOT an ace, but this sim allows me to live vicariously and imagine (even if just a little) what it was like to fly one of these warbirds.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To Boltie:
U are an ace in FB Boltie (U know that)(your TgD buddies knows that too) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif.

-----------------------------------------------


To the board:

FBplayers and our boardmembers in general mean; Ace = experienced flyer in FB that often score hits on enemyplanes.
I think also majority of us "do not" mean that we would be "aces" in a real war if we only had the chance.
Personally I wouldn't go near the airforce in RL. I'm a natural puker U see.

So I'm anyway glad to be somekind of "ace" in FB, even if a random one. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

NegativeGee
05-17-2004, 10:38 AM
Heheh. FB like most sims strips away large amounts of reality just to make the thing playable for most of us noobs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Which is good, as the aim here is enjoyment!

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

1.JaVA_Razer
05-17-2004, 10:52 AM
it is indeed good because otherways could you imagen?

Ok,switsh X1 to on,X3to off X5 to med and now,hold the generator for engine 1 for 30 seconds... Let go and give a bit of power(and I left out the pumping of fuel into the cilinders)

Ok now same for nā?2

and thats just starting your crate,let alone fly it and get everything safe and into position
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

------------------------------
http://www.entity-project.tk
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AMD 2500+ @3200+
Asus A7n8X-X
512MB DDR 3200 Apacer
Hercules 9200(soon to have a X800 pro)
2Coolermaster fans
Thermalright SP 97 CPU cooler
Sunbeam rheobus

jenikovtaw
05-17-2004, 10:53 AM
Yea, but its a game.

Plus, I think most of the hardcore management is featured in microsoft civil sims, correct me if im wrong.

http://www.theartofwarfare.net/ftp/graphics/sigs/EXT-jenikovtaw.jpg

SodBuster43
05-17-2004, 11:20 AM
S! Col_Tibbetts,

Yesterday my mother was cleaning out the video collection and when she finished handed me my long lost vhs tape entitled "Flying the Fighters P-47 & P-51". The tape is 97 minutes of actual WWII training and promotional films for these aircraft.

On the tape there is a rather detailed official AAF pilot training film from 1943 on the P-47 that outlines everything the pilot had to know and perform from takeoff to landing a P-47D Razorback. Also, it accurately illustrates the flight envelope of the P-47 including the do's and don'ts, aerobatics, combat tactics, take-off and landing. Of special note are the excellent stall charecteristics and roll rate of the P-47.

All in all a fun video to watch and learn from. If someone made a very detailed flight sim that included the P-47 I would be thrilled. In my dreams I guess http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
05-17-2004, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
Heheh. FB like most sims strips away large amounts of reality just to make the thing playable for most of us noobs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Which is good, as the aim here is enjoyment!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh... realism is enjoyment.

You are making a distiction between the 2, and thereby stating that they are counter to one another.

So, if realism isn't enjoyable to you, why do you seek out something that at least attempts to be a sim? Why would you not be playing CFS, SWON, CS, or any of the console WWII era games?

Sims should not cater to that group of gamers, unless it's an option only. Visual restrictions are one thing, but not enough.

It needs to be more like Falcon.

Speaking of which, to the poster to implied there aren't enough keys, to borrow a phrase - You is wrong. lol Key combos expand that exponentially. Using a HOTAS simplifies it in the extreme as well. Falcon and LOMAC (Falcon being a better example than LOMAC) do just fine with current interfaces. A WWII sim would find it much easier. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

propDrop999
05-17-2004, 12:01 PM
Col_Tibbetts, 'nuff said!

But, I think you missed the part about when hot
lead rips through his left thigh and he can't
see his controls because of the blood sprayed on them.

The harsh reality of the air war was never more fully detailed to me than in PBS's 'A Fighter Pilot's Story.' For four hours I was completely riveted to the tube. If you haven't seen it - SEE IT!! Check this story from the website based on the same documentary:

http://pages.prodigy.net/rebeljack/Bork.html

I've heard (from other's posts on this forum)that bounces were the most treacherous for the victim and accounted for the majority of allied loses in those long flights over Germany. Hence the importance of sky scanning. In a situation like that I would point nose down and drop like a rock. I think P-47 pilots would do that until the gauge read 500MPH, then they knew they were clear.

In all reality we can never duplicate (nor do I think we want to) the full reality of what happened in the air from '39 - '45. What we do get online though is an even playing field (that's if there ain't no speed hacks about) , everyone with the same virtual environment - and one HELL of a good simulation of dogfightin'!

http://katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2/Images/images05-Zelma/stalingrad-zelma-downplane.jpg
Stalingrad 1942

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
... So began the most appalling, devastating and savage conflict in
the history of warfare.

It was conducted on both sides by obsessively ruthless tyrants,
battering one another like a pair of rabid rhinoceroses - with this
difference that they used not their own bodies but those of millions of
men whom, by the exercise of will, they committed to every kind of
suffering, mutilation and death. Until nearly the end of its four
years this fearful contest was remote from the other theatres of war,
so that when it ended its impact on the rest of the world - on those
who were neither Russian nor German - was incommensurate with its
hideous actuality.
</pre>

From the chapter 'Barbarossa', The Penguin History of the Second
World War, Calvocoressi, Wint, Pritchard.

BaldieJr
05-17-2004, 12:06 PM
DDT: right on, 3 cheers for you!

Sim creators should always appeal to the hard-core players first and foremost, with as much attention to detail as possible. Simplification options should be added as an after thought.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
Specs:
More expensive than the dining set.
Less expensive than the couch.
Smaller than the dishwasher.
Just as noisy as the refridgerator.
Faster than the cars' computer.
Less practical than the car.
Face it, people who put thier computer specs in thier signature are pretty ****ing wierd.

</pre>

BpGemini
05-17-2004, 12:08 PM
I'm an Ace!


At diaper changing.
I changed 5 diapers in row without getting poo on me.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/images/P-39_BlitzPig_Sig_01.jpg
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.
The Pig Sty (http://blitzpigs.com/)

NegativeGee
05-17-2004, 12:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
Uh... _realism_ is enjoyment.

You are making a distiction between the 2, and thereby stating that they are counter to one another.

So, if realism isn't enjoyable to you, why do you seek out something that at least attempts to be a sim? Why would you not be playing CFS, SWON, CS, or any of the console WWII era games?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you not play CFS, SWON, CS or any of the console WWII era games? For me its because they do not do as good a job as IL-2 does. My reference was to Col_Tibbetts quote of Colonel Rau's comments on the P-38. We do not have the level of realism his memo details. I'm sure it could be added, but it may not be to everyones taste.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

BlitzPig_DDT
05-17-2004, 12:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
I'm sure it could be added, but it may not be to everyones taste.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right. Those who don't want realism. Which is why having it toggle-able would be good.

But any product that attempts to market itself as a sim should make every effort to achieve the maximum realism that current hardware allows.

The original IL2 did a good job, but, too much was missed. It's unfortunate that it also happens to be the best around.

But, I do wonder why people would be attracted to a product that attempts to be a sim if all they want is arcard shoot-em-up action.

And certainly, to say that a "sim" should not be a sim, because the arcaders don't like that, is, well, a bit odd.

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

Red_Russian13
05-17-2004, 12:20 PM
DDT and BaldieJr:

As much as I've always respected your input on these forums (long before I registered), I'm going to have to disagree.

Developers aim to make money, that's really the bottom line. In order to do that, they must put out the highest quality product possible, AND they must appeal to a large variety of people, not just hard-core simmers. I don't think simplification options should be merely an afterthought. My opinion is that the game/sim must appeal to everyone. Those who want to experience the most realistic settings possible, those who want it super easy, and those in between. Personally, I started off on easier settings, because frankly, I'm not a pilot, and while I understand the basics of normal flight, I wouldn't do very well. Eventually, I hungered for more, and I now play on more realistic settings. But honestly, without the option of playing with amature settings, I wouldn't have bothered with this sim at all, or would have taken it back.

I'm not speaking for everyone here, but I believe that there should be as many options as possible to appeal to a broad audience. Some want to enjoy the quality visuals without worrying about stalls and spins. I don't think they should have to play CFS, because, they like me, may want to eventually experience the full effects of IL-2s awesome flight and damage models. I am all for options, but like I previously said, they should be options, not laws.

I don't want to begin the ever annoying argument between the "full difficulty" crowd and the "easy as possible" crowd, but I think what we have is a happy medium...Options to make it whatever you want it to be. Just my two cents.

Thanks for listening.

Red Russian

Lunix
05-17-2004, 12:38 PM
Good stuff Tibbetts on learning to fly the 38 well. I think I would go for this type of stuff if implemented in the sim. Of course many people would be flying around with there sights on all the time and stuff but those of us who put the extra effort in would have a small advantage. TB I can visually confirm more than a few 5 kill sorties on your part http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://members.shaw.ca/corn/il2sig2.jpg

NegativeGee
05-17-2004, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
But, I do wonder why people would be attracted to a product that attempts to be a sim if all they want is arcard shoot-em-up action.

And certainly, to say that a "sim" should not be a sim, because the arcaders don't like that, is, well, a bit odd.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm, but as Red_Russian13 said the game has to cater to a viable market to be commercially successful. Knowing Oleg's crews fastidious attention to detail, I imagine they were all to aware of what detail they were going to deliberately exclude from the game, and such decisions were decided in part by this factor.

Those of who desire the greatest realism possible have to forego some of it to have a product that will have appeal to some of the "arcaders" (whatever you mean by that term) who contribute to its sales success.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

BlitzPig_DDT
05-17-2004, 03:06 PM
Well, "arcaders" isn't a derogatory term really, though I guess it could be taken (or used) as such.

That term simply describes those who would not want to have to go through the (admitedly adapted) motions of fliping all the right switches in the right sequence at the right time, etc.

It's easy to make that stuff by passable after you've added it. It has to be automatable in some form for the AI in the first place. Which is what I think Baldie meant. An afterthought in that it's less important because it can be done after the fact and is just a bit of polish to make it more appealing to the masses.

Just as you can argue that there is no need to explude the less serious crowd, there is likewise no need to limit the hard core crowd just to accomodate the masses. This isn't like TV or movies. Due to options it really can be all things to all people (in a manner of speaking).

Hell, even CFS, which is known for pi$$ poor FM and DMs and is rather arcadish in that regard managed to get far more of the complex management procedures down. And if they can do it, why not Oleg?

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

FA_Maddog
05-17-2004, 03:36 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:

"Speaking of which, to the poster to implied there aren't enough keys, to borrow a phrase - You is wrong. lol Key combos expand that exponentially. Using a HOTAS simplifies it in the extreme as well. Falcon and LOMAC (Falcon being a better example than LOMAC) do just fine with current interfaces. A WWII sim would find it much easier."


LOL I'm afraid that shift, shift + control, shift + control + Alt..ect wouldn't cut it for me as I was getting shot at. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I would hit the wrong key and cut my oxygen off. Plus they have a lot of task assign to the keys now that most can't remember including me.

609IAP_Recon
05-17-2004, 03:50 PM
with our current simplistic setup we have enough bugs to swat away, let alone a complex system.

Being able to spawn without colliding is my goal right now.

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg

Red_Russian13
05-17-2004, 04:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Well, "arcaders" isn't a derogatory term really, though I guess it could be taken (or used) as such.

That term simply describes those who would not want to have to go through the (admitedly adapted) motions of fliping all the right switches in the right sequence at the right time, etc.

It's easy to make that stuff by passable after you've added it. It has to be automatable in some form for the AI in the first place. Which is what I think Baldie meant. An afterthought in that it's less important because it can be done after the fact and is just a bit of polish to make it more appealing to the masses.

Just as you can argue that there is no need to explude the less serious crowd, there is likewise no need to limit the hard core crowd just to accomodate the masses. This isn't like TV or movies. Due to options it really can be all things to all people (in a manner of speaking).

Hell, even CFS, which is known for pi$$ poor FM and DMs and is rather arcadish in that regard managed to get far more of the complex management procedures down. And if they can do it, why not Oleg?

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well put. It should be all things to all people, or at least as close as humanly possible.

Red Russian