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XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 03:52 AM
Greetings all,

I declare it official, the I16 is my aircraft of choice. On the weekend, I mixed it up on DF with BF109Ks, Yak3s and LA7s, all the while flying that little barrel, the I16. It held up remarkably well, is fast enough with good energy and engine management to keep up with the best of them and deadly when down close to the hard deck.

I was downed numerous times, on various servers but gave just as good as I got. I love the idea of a 1939 classic struggling to hold its own with the big boys and celebrating when it does.

One thing that did astound me though, is the number of people who kept getting into turnfights with me, especially close to the ground, in BF109s and FWs. I mean come on people, on one side you talk about the german planes being sub standard, on the other hand youre flying them as if they are bi-planes. Tactics go a long way my friends. I could definately see a difference in success rate between those pilots who did not bait and fall into my compfort zone of turn and burn and those who were suckered into moving through every nimble move I pulled, thereby bleeding energy till they became sitting ducks.

Anyway, I had a great time, thanks all and I'll see you in the clouds.

FS07

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 03:52 AM
Greetings all,

I declare it official, the I16 is my aircraft of choice. On the weekend, I mixed it up on DF with BF109Ks, Yak3s and LA7s, all the while flying that little barrel, the I16. It held up remarkably well, is fast enough with good energy and engine management to keep up with the best of them and deadly when down close to the hard deck.

I was downed numerous times, on various servers but gave just as good as I got. I love the idea of a 1939 classic struggling to hold its own with the big boys and celebrating when it does.

One thing that did astound me though, is the number of people who kept getting into turnfights with me, especially close to the ground, in BF109s and FWs. I mean come on people, on one side you talk about the german planes being sub standard, on the other hand youre flying them as if they are bi-planes. Tactics go a long way my friends. I could definately see a difference in success rate between those pilots who did not bait and fall into my compfort zone of turn and burn and those who were suckered into moving through every nimble move I pulled, thereby bleeding energy till they became sitting ducks.

Anyway, I had a great time, thanks all and I'll see you in the clouds.

FS07

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 04:19 AM
I have had some good experiences with th I-16 also. Love to turn fight in those planes. I also had some kills with the little flyer. It seems to have a stable platform to fire from. I was on a DF sever today and had three kills with it. Really surprised me with the limited power it has. Nevertheless, a great little flyer! S!

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 05:11 AM
Striker-PBNA::
-- It seems to have a stable platform to fire from.

That may not be hysterically correct, although the comparison below to Ki~27 sheds no light on a similar comparison of I~16 to other most un~Japanese like aircraft in FB like Fb109 Email or Hurricane....

- The greatest virtue of the Japanese fighter appeared to be its stability andease of flying,
- which gave the pilot confidence, simplified the conduct of battle and gave a definite
- advantage. Thanks to its stability, the Ki~27 was able under all regimes of flight,
- with two machineguns, with the usual rate of fire of 1800 rounds a minute, bring
- sufficiently accurate and effective fire in battle, as against the Soviet ShKAS's,
- together firing up to 5600 rounds a minute.[2] In other words, the less stable
- I-16 to some measure compensated with a greater weight of armament.
:
- ~[2]Assuming the I-16 Type 10 with 4 ShKAS; the ShKAS also fired at 1800 rpm, unsynchronized. - GMM

lifted from Soviet Fighters in the Sky of China Part VI

here ---> http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/otherres.htm


------------------------------------


Firestorm07::
-- One thing that did astound me though, is the number of people who kept
-- getting into turnfights with me, especially close to the ground, in BF109s and FWs.
-- I mean come on people,


The scientific study in the link below explains why our Fb109 and Fw190 triplane aces try to turn with I~16 and then wonder what happened... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yxcwy


If you add enough wings to Fw190, it *must* out turn even I~153, eventually. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

btw, at the first website above, we see in 1930s that I~16 was best used as high speed attack~n~run fighter against the Japanese Ki~27 and A5M (the Devine Predecessors of Hayabusa and Zero respectively)



Message Edited on 10/28/0304:16AM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 05:21 AM
I actually havn't flown the I-16 post-patch.

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XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 07:01 AM
There is a natural tendancy for pilots to simply roll the aircraft, and try to turn inside it in a dogfight. Many of the advanced energy based manuvers are quite counter intuitive on the surface, however, they are exceptionally effective once mastered.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 12:06 AM
Thats why I couldnt compete online, Im a turn and burn kind of guy.

Just never really took the time to learn some of the more advanced manavuers. I mean I can do loops and stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Problem with going agaist AI for so many years, ai makes you a turn and burn kind of pilot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<img SRC=http://www.metrocast.net/~moffre/FAFSIG.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 12:59 AM
I think it's more stable in all axes than it should be for a short plane with a short wingspan. I've yet to find a deadlier aircraft to strafe small objects ( like AA guns ) than the I-16, as modelled in FB. You can't miss, almost like your sights are glued to whatever you are shooting at. Of course it behooves you to used the model 24 for strafing, so you get cannons. It's MGs only on the other one and they're too weak for good strafing.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:30 AM
I can program the flightmodel of "The Spirit of St:Luis" so it can outgun, outspeed outturn and outclimb any plane in IL-2 and FB, if I get access of the source-code, but whats the fun of flying a plane with a model that isnt correct? Perhaps its fun to boost the ego and say to yourself "Im a outstanding fighter pilot. I have downed more planes per sortie than the WWII-ace XXXXXXXX".

Perhaps if a plane was equipped with the sidewinder-missiles in FB it would be fun to clear the sky in the range of many km.

Those overmodelled planes makes the game ludicrous. Its sad because most of the rest is good.

The fun of flying Microsoft combat flight simulator online servers was destroyed because egoboosting virtual pilots manipulatet the *.air files so their planes where overmodelled. I seriously hope that UBI-soft and Oleg is smarter than Bill Gates gang and release a new patch to FB that makes the fighters more eaven. They have done many good corrections like that before was it more likely to get shoot down by five tanks than by a destroyer.

Imagine what would happend if another gameproducer would release a game which gives theese plane we fly in FB more correct flight characteristics.

Finally to give a practical example to what I am "whining" about; Try fly a Me 109 with full realism in quick Combat mission and encounter a ace/vet AI pilot in a I-16 and compare it with engaging a ace/vet AI pilot in a P51, and you will se that something is wery wrong.



Message Edited on 10/29/0301:59PM by zugfuhrer

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 03:37 AM
So are we saying the AI is messed up?

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:01 PM
I feel like a real hero everytime I fly I16 on VEF. :-) It's slow and you can see nothing behind you. I'm lucky there are some Germans who like to turn..

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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 01:49 PM
Eh, how can a dogfight against the AI prove anything about flightmodels? If anything it's a testament of your own flying skills and those of the AI. Nothing else.

If anyone wants to prove that the flightmodel of the I-16 is wrong, there's really only one thing to do: Get access to real life data and see if the same numbers can be achieved in FB given the same circumstances.

Everything else is bilge.

cheers/slush

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Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 02:09 PM
it is not like you are flying that nimble I-16 good, but more like your opponents beeing stupid for entering turn fight with this beast.. I have done the mistake douzens of times, and only now I have learned the lesson to stay out of turn fights with this beast /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 04:23 PM
Firestorm07 wrote:
- Greetings all,
-
- I declare it official, the I16 is my aircraft of
- choice. (snip)

I like it too. I kinda like being in a small target /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif It is however a cow to skin, with little extra bits drawn from obscure parts of the bitmap, with a few areas getting used twice.

I find it interesting they never retrofitted something to replace that manually cranked landing gear!

cheers,
Tony
(flying as "wombat" on HL)


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oh yeah, and I'm a Whirlwind whiner too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 07:10 PM
zugfuhrer wrote:

Try fly a Me 109 with full realism
- in quick Combat mission and encounter a ace/vet AI
- pilot in a I-16 and compare it with engaging a
- ace/vet AI pilot in a P51, and you will se that
- something is wery wrong.


I completely agree with you Zugfuhrer!!!

The P51 ace actually runs away from you instead of trying to fight, I was really surprised by this.

I find the hardest plane to shoot down in this game (against AI) is the I-16!

Give me a La 7 or Yak 3 as an opponent any day but not the I-16 which is not only hard to hit but when you hit it nothing happens.

If the 1-16 was that great then Operation Barbarossa would have fallen flat pretty early, even if you boom and zoom on these guys they dance a little to the left or right just when you are shooting and you miss. As the AI always know where you are (so do online players due to the sound) you can't surpise them either.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 07:27 PM
naw the biplanes are harder to bring down :\
spesh the really slow one /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 07:27 PM
-- If the 1-16 was that great then Operation Barbarossa
-- would have fallen flat pretty early, even if you boom
-- and zoom on these guys they dance a little to the left
-- or right just when you are shooting and you miss. As the
-- AI always know where you are (so do online players due
-- to the sound) you can't surpise them either.

Have you downloaded any Patches or are you running I~16 in original FB?

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 07:35 PM
I dunno. I got into a turning fight in a Bf-109F-2 with a Mig-3 at 500-1,000 ft, and he out-turned me! I mean, the Mig was, by all accounts, a pig at low level. Didn't make much sense to me.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 10:45 PM
Hi !

Polikarpov I-16 was very difficult to fly. Russian pilots told "If you can fly I-16, you can fly everything" :-)
It is true after patch, and I like it :-)

Greetings

Stary Wuj
Warsaw
Poland

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 08:18 AM
Stary_Wuj wrote:
- Hi !
-
- Polikarpov I-16 was very difficult to fly. Russian
- pilots told "If you can fly I-16, you can fly
- everything" :-)
- It is true after patch, and I like it :-)

I know it was supposed to be a bee-yatch in RL but difficult in FB? Come on! If it was 50kph faster, the Type 24 would be the best fighter in the game.

<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~lenazavaroni/images/tva_01a.jpg

<font size="+4">What a fox!</font></center>

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 09:41 AM
You wrote

"I feel like a real hero everytime I fly I16 on VEF. :-) It's slow and you can see nothing behind you. I'm lucky there are some Germans who like to turn.. "

Take a close look at the kill-ratio in any mission and you will se that the I-16 has very good scores.
If you fly a coop mission and the I-16 is listed, they are taken directly and some players leave the game if they dont get it.

If we meet at hyperlobby give me a pagermessage and we can join a dogfight server and you fly the me and I take the I-16. Then we can discuss the subject heroismus in flying :-)

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:00 AM
So, maybe I-16 is too fast turning, but for me flight model is much complicated than other flayable planes, mayby because I must be very gently when I change altitude :-)
- You know - engine :-)

Stary Wuj
Warsaw
Poland

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:19 AM
Does I-16 have a variable pitch propeller? It doesn't make much sense in an aircraft that doesn't have trim or (combat) flaps, but nevertheless I hear the engine change RPM when I adjust prop. pitch.... Also there is a message about the prop. pitch automate switching on - isn't it too much a high tech for the old Polikarpov?

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:29 AM
Stary_Wuj wrote:
- So, maybe I-16 is too fast turning, but for me
- flight model is much complicated than other flayable
- planes, mayby because I must be very gently when I
- change altitude :-)
-- You know - engine :-)

If you mean the negative G effect on the carb just do a half roll before diving. Also works for I-153 and Hurricane Mk1.

HTH

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XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:35 AM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- Does I-16 have a variable pitch propeller? It
- doesn't make much sense in an aircraft that doesn't
- have trim or (combat) flaps, but nevertheless I hear
- the engine change RPM when I adjust prop. pitch....
- Also there is a message about the prop. pitch
- automate switching on - isn't it too much a high
- tech for the old Polikarpov?

The models in the game have manual variable-pitch props IIRC. How that is linked with flaps or trim I have no idea.

Never seen an automate message - what's your CEM setting?



<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~lenazavaroni/images/tva_01a.jpg

<font size="+4">What a fox!</font></center>

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:41 AM
As I play Il2 Sturmovik I do not have any CEM settings.

About the trim and flaps - they are not linked to propeller pitch AFAIK... I was just wondering about the apparent technical sophistication of the propeller in the I-16 as contrasted to the obvious crudeness of the rest of the aircraft.

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:44 AM
Stary Wuju polataj sobie I-16 w I2 to wtedy bedziesz m³g³ powiedziec ze rata sie trudno lata. A tak prosze cie nie wypowiadaj sie ze rata sie trudno lata po nowym patchu, bo mnie krew zalewa.

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 12:37 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- As I play Il2 Sturmovik I do not have any CEM
- settings.
-
- About the trim and flaps - they are not linked to
- propeller pitch AFAIK... I was just wondering about
- the apparent technical sophistication of the
- propeller in the I-16 as contrasted to the obvious
- crudeness of the rest of the aircraft.


Ah, missed that bit.

In that case I can't help you. I never used the I-16 in Il-2.

<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~lenazavaroni/images/tva_01a.jpg

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XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 12:39 PM
Some of you folks crack me up. Now don't get me wrong I love the little I-16. Yet honestly you have to pull some buck rodgers manuevers against a solid 109 pilot to score any kills.

Not to mention they're easy to shoot down. I downed 2 in under a minute on the VEF. Both took only 1 boom n zoom pass, and heck the first one exploded in mid-air. All that and I was in a 109 F-2 which everyone says has weak guns.

Also a good 109 pilot can out turn a Mig-3. It's simply a matter of who makes a wrong move first, and there's more to turning than just cranking it around.

Simply put a good pilot in a BF-109 is a fearfull thing to encounter. Even as a 109 pilot I fly VVS occasionally, and I cringe if I see a 109 barreling down on me.

I-16's though are not over modelled or uber. If your crazy enough to try to turn fight one you deserve to get shot down.

Most pilots simply do not have the patience, nerve, or practice to succesfully fly the 109. I see it all the time they'll make about 1 boom n zoom pass, and then start trying to turn fight cause they didn't manage to do much in the dive.

Still though I've been in a bad way before on VEF against a pair of I-16's. I had been hammering Sturmovicks, and they caught me low, and low on ammo. Easy situation to get out of though I just rammed her up to 90% power closed the radiator dove away what little altitude I had left, and ran for it. They simply couldn't catch me and I kept rocking back and forth checking my 6.

Eventually they gave up the hopeless chase, and turn back for their base. I pulled a 180, and started my climb up behind the poor blind suckers. I made one shallow pass not even enough to call it a Boom n Zoom.
One billowed smoke, and the other was streaming fuel, and bailed.

When in a I-16 up against a good 109 pilot it's a wing and a prayer. It involves evasive manuevers, and pulling vertical up behind the 109 to get a shot on him. Or pulling up and taking the diving 109 head on which never works out good for the I-16. The closure speed becomes way too high for either pilot to be very effective, but it leaves the 109 in energy bliss, and the I-16 wallowing in the sky.

Online in the VEF though I've seen some very good team tactics in I-16's that made them competitors. One on one though they are no match, and even 2 on 1 the I-16's better be darn good, and have their lucky rabbits foot.

Once again though while most pilots are worried about aircraft performance good pilots can be effective in about anything. Yet a rookie or decent pilot in a I-16 against rookie pilots in 109's. I'll give odds on the I-16 any day.

Every take-off is optional, but every landing is mandatory!

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 01:04 PM
Nice post Hopperfly22. You just about summed it up. It's the pilot that makes the difference. You need to know the I-16 well to be anything like competative against more advanced fighters. Used correctly, and in numbers they can be dangerous. But this was the case in RL too. Every Donkey has it's day and the little "Ishak" had its hayday in the Spanish Civil War. I love the little donkey.

And what's all this talk of prop. pitch being linked to flaps and trim? NO WAY!! I-16 was fixed pitch but adjustable on the ground IIRC.

He's a couple of good sites for other Ishak afficianados:-

http://www.brushfirewars.org/aircraft/polikarpov_i-16/polikarpov_i-16_1.htm

http://www.tidetech.com/fighterfactory/polii16rata.html



Message Edited on 10/30/0302:50PM by ELEM

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 01:15 PM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
-
- I-16's though are not over modelled or uber. If
- your crazy enough to try to turn fight one you
- deserve to get shot down.

Pretty much sums it up. Great plane, easy to fly, but has it's limitations.



<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~lenazavaroni/images/tva_01a.jpg

<font size="+4">What a fox!</font></center>

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 04:03 PM
Kwiatos - latalem w oryginalnym IL2 dluzej niz w FB, w ustawieniach max. hard., i szczerze mowiac nie widze specjalnej roznicy, Szczur i tak pilotuje sie trudniej niz reszte jak dla mnie, wiec rozumiem, ze reszte pilotuje sie zbyt latwo, ale to inna sprawa. Za to w online widzialem gosci, ktorzy na serwerze z ustawieniami HARD latali jakby to byl Crimson Skies :-) , mam nadzieje, ze to wrazenie spowodowane bylo przez lagi.


Stary Wuj

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 03:13 PM
Rata i cobra latalo sie o wiele trudniej w il2 niz w fb na 100%, trza bylo uwazac mocno na stalle i spiny w manewrach, nie pamietam tylko czy racie gasl silnik na -G. Teraz w fb to leszczoloty.

lol

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 03:33 PM
I couldn't have said it better! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 04:53 PM
There's no doubt that the AI performance on the I16 makes it a beast to take on. No doubt in the real world, it's poor handling at low altitude/low speeds would be a different matter. But I agree with those German pilots who'd much rather take on MIGs, YAKs or LAGGs anyday than tangle with a bunch of I16 stinging gnats!

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 07:26 PM
Hopperfly I could sure have use for you as a figherschool teacher.
It seems as I have much to learn from you. I have emptied the guns of Me109F2 at many I-16 and the only thing that happend to the I-16 was that he probobly have to add some paint to the frame when he landed. Once and a while he managed to shoot at me with the result that my engine started to smoke or conked out.

Send me a mail at perca_perca@hotmail.com becaus I am consuming many of Willy M products right now.