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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 08:16 PM
No problem CHDT. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Let's summarize:

1) Same P-47D-27 w/ different prop and bigger engine (VERY VERY FAST).

2) Amount of modeling required? Hardly any.
a) prop
b) K-14 gunsite
c) ??? That's it...


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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 09:06 PM
I support any and all efforts to model new planes! But I don't know if you're asking in the right place. All the new aircraft that come with updates and patches do not come from Oleg & Co., but from third-party modelers and texturers. The software people integrate the textured models into the game with sound and FMs. So if you really want a P-47M (which would be cool), find a third-party 3D modeler who's interested. Trust me, there's a massive Il-2 modeling community out there.

***************************************

"Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our bunghole!" ---David

"...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight), still a burden are they not to me. I am the challenger of gravity." ---Emperor

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 10:17 PM
Yup..yer right Snootles...I'll post something over at Netwings.


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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 11:15 AM
lets get the M flying and put the correct roll rate on it. this plane will STEP all over the patched fw190A9 !!!!

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/p47-22.jpg 47|FC=

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 12:19 PM
S!

Bring the M model off the assembly line and into FB.

The P47M deserves to be included--it was a wartime operational aircraft serving on the front lines.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 01:14 AM
Yes, why not, a very easy and interesting addition to the game!

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 01:44 AM
Yeah, I'd like a P-47M.

As far as how much combat it saw, as some LW people think is a criteria for inclusion.......

How much did the Go229 see?

And yes, I want the 229 too.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:47 AM
Yes! This deserves a big bump and a request for the P-47N as well. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:12 AM
The P-47M saw combat in 1945 and yes, with the coming of Japanese planes, the inclusion of the P-47N (I like its square wings) is also perfectly appropriate.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:20 AM
CHDT wrote:
- The P-47M saw combat in 1945 and yes, with the
- coming of Japanese planes, the inclusion of the
- P-47N (I like its square wings) is also perfectly
- appropriate.


You really are stubborn/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:52 AM
Oh, yes /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 01:39 PM
Oh yes I always loved the squared off wings of the "N", and it was exceptionally agile for a plane it's size and weight. We can hope, but I am happy others share my desire to see it added and for the same reasons too.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 06:51 PM
Eagle_361st wrote:
- Oh yes I always loved the squared off wings of the
- "N", and it was exceptionally agile for a plane it's
- size and weight. We can hope, but I am happy others
- share my desire to see it added and for the same
- reasons too.
- ~S!
- Eagle
- CO 361st vFG
-
yes bring 'em in! and HVARS (tank killing missiles)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p9141f290fa1c1c59a2dc382c77af21f3/fb1a8321.jpg


Lead Whiner for the P-47-30 and Hvars

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 03:06 PM
bump

and then give me a I-231 to engage it in a "fictional" clash between the USSR and the USA.

that is what a 46 server should be all about http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 05:25 PM
Huck wrote:
>I'm sorry SkyChimp but this has to be the most childish answer ever read by me on this forum. What kind of anti-american ploy are you talking about? My only point I'm making here that can hurt some americans fellings is that there were no competitive dogfighters serving with USAAF in any year of the war. I did not say americans did not have good fighters, just that those fighters were not dogfighters.


Huck, it goes beyond that. You post as if dogfighting is and was the be all and end all of WW2 fighters.

I won't even concede that point to you, because I think you see dogfighting as turn fighting, an endless luffberry until someone gets on the other's tail.

The fact is that 2/3 to 3/4 of all aerial kills are the result of an unobserved bounce, not a dogfight. Your idea of what made a good fighter in WW2 puts big emphasis on qualities that account for only 1/3 to 1/4 of the kills in any war. US planes emphasized abilities that enhanced that other part of the equation.

In fact, the US had it right. Performance and range meant more than low wingloading and high power to weight ratio.

I see you as sniffing at the qualities that made US planes the killing machines they were, speed and range, and denigrating that. Instead, turning and sustained climb rule in your world.

Unfortunately, in the bloody skies of WW2, the ultimate killing machines were the ones that took the fight to the enemy, attacked with high speed, and lived to fight again. Not the dogfighters, my friend.

In the end, it doesn't make any difference if the US planes turned or sustained a climb well. They did what turned out to be important extremely well. They were fast (and maneuvered well at high speeds) and flew long distances. That was the winning combination, not sustained climb.

edited to add Huck's post.
edited again to remove > which didn't go where I wanted it to





Message Edited on 09/26/03 04:44PM by Slickun

Message Edited on 09/27/0305:38AM by Slickun

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 06:35 PM
No problem CHDT. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif BUMP

Let's summarize:

1) Same P-47D-27 w/ different prop and bigger engine (VERY VERY FAST).

2) Amount of modeling required? Hardly any.
a) prop
b) K-14 gunsite
c) ??? That's it...

_____________


I would like to see the N model also---very little to do to add it in FB.

The comparisons of the P47M & Ta152 seem similar. Both entered service late in the war-January 45' and about the same number were produced, edge going to the Ta152. Add both planes.

The more planes added to FB increses it's operational life.

Braveheart's William Wallace said it best:
"I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight? Fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live, at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing, to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!"

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 07:38 PM
I'm fairly certain the production models of the M after the weatherproofing fiasco all had the dorsal fin.

Especially given the amount of production with and retro-fitting of, said fin.

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 07:49 PM
Read that!!!!

"orry fellas. The Mustang was not the fastest piston aircraft of WWII. The XP-47 Thunderbolt turned in a level speed of 504 mph in August of 1944. The production model P-47M had a manufacturer's specified top speed of 473 mph. In reality, Republic field reps taught crew chiefs how to illegally modify turbo regulator linkages so as to produce much more power. In fact, one test aircraft had it's 2,800 hp-rated engine repeatedly run at (and this is no misprint) 3,600 horsepower... enough to FAR exceed the factory specified top speed of 473 mph. Bob Coiro, President P-47 Alumni Association"


http://www.warbirdmuseum.com/disc_grp/_discussion_grp/00000056.htm

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 07:53 PM
And that:


"he 56th FG was the only unit to operate the P-47M. You are correct about problems keeping the P-47M from becoming fully operational until the war was just about over. By that stage of the war, the 56th was meeting very little aerial oppostion, but from what I understand, the "M" did very well when they did encounter the Luftwaffe. Contrary to many writings, the "M" was NOT developed to chase V1's, and I do not believe that a 56th P-47M ever shot one down. One tidbit that I read was that some enterprising crewchiefs were able to "tweak" P-47M's so that they were capable of reaching 500 MPH true airspeed ! There are several good books about the 56th available, and they detail the use of the P-47M."

http://www.p47advocates.com/messages/857.html


500MPH, TRUE AIRSPEED, I want a P-47M!!!!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 08:33 PM
Enh, screw the 500mph TAS, I wanna know what the SL I/TAS was. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Republic ran that engine at 3600hp on 100octane gas for 250hours straight. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 09:39 PM
The kicker was that the 56th was awaiting transition into the P-51H when they were disbanded.

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 09:47 PM
johann_thor wrote:
- bump
-
- and then give me a I-231 to engage it in a
- "fictional" clash between the USSR and the USA.
-
- that is what a 46 server should be all about http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Give me a Spitfire! (And a Tempest II - Tempest II
versus P47M would be fun).

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 09:53 PM
johann_thor wrote:
- "fictional" clash between the USSR and the USA.
-
- that is what a 46 server should be all about /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

heh heh. Rock on. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 05:38 PM
Good ole bump for the "N & M" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 02:41 AM
Slickun wrote:
- The kicker was that the 56th was awaiting transition
- into the P-51H when they were disbanded.


?

The 56th went to the P-51H briefly, then to the P-80.



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/NAA_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-29-2003, 11:12 PM
Ahem........I would like to anounce the bump.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 04:06 PM
Still relevant. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 07:26 AM
Calling all bribes for the modeler who brings us a "M" and a "N". /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I am serious I know I would pay money to see those Jugs added. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I may start whinning if we don't get out way. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 08:43 AM
BUMP this baby. lets get the m and n models. and forget the others

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus! <img src ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509047.jpg">

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 04:15 PM
Bump! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 04:56 PM
Hope Gibbage will see this topic.

A "M" for him, half an hour of modeling, and a "N" with the square wings, two-three hours no more /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And I think that the "M" would be quite cool against the TA-152H and the "N" against the Ki-84!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 02:59 AM
yes but someone has to adjust the flight models. how long will that take and who will do that ?

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus! <img src ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509047.jpg">

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 05:01 AM
Resurrected we musn't let this one die gents. I will bump this until the year 2246 or there abouts. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 06:13 AM
Why do you insist on WHINING!!!!!!!

<font color=white font size="3" face="arial"LtCol. "Guns" CO
<font size="3"><font face="bd hanover">352nd Fighter Group </font> [VR]
<font face="bd hanover">328th Fighter Squadron</font>
<font><font color="#330099"><font size="5"><font face="brush script mt">"Second To None!"</font>

<font>[b]<font size="2" font color=black>[(HL)_352FG; (UBI) USAAF_352FG]: The<font><font color=#330099 face="brush script mt"font size="5">"First"</font><font color=black font size="2"> 352FG in IL-2FB</font>

"Take-offs are optional. Landings are mandatory."

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 06:53 AM
Far from whining SIR! This thread has one purpose to get the attention of Oleg and a modeler to create the P-47 M and N. That is it, you don't agree with it, don't post here. There are many of us who would love to see these little known P-47's in this great game.
Nuff said!
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 06:55 AM
P.S.
All your P-51's are belong to us. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

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Message Edited on 10/11/0305:55AM by Eagle_361st

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 12:49 PM
Here's a very good P-47M skin:

http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=3712

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 02:25 PM
RedDeth wrote:
- yes but someone has to adjust the flight models. how
- long will that take and who will do that ?
-
- www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions
- Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus!
- <img src
- ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_106550
- 9047.jpg">
-


If you've been paying attention to IL2 progression you'd know it'll tkae years! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2003, 06:16 PM
^^

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 05:06 PM
bump

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The_Blue_Devil
10-16-2003, 09:45 PM
First I'd like to bump.. Second..is their any truth to the 56th having "Hot Rod" P-47M and N's? I heard they used "after market" parts that they canabalized from other planes on their jugs to boost HP and such.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 09:59 PM
In Europe, only P-47M's. Some of them were unofficially "tweaked" to get 3000PS!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:49 PM
CHDT wrote:
- In Europe, only P-47M's. Some of them were
- unofficially "tweaked" to get 3000PS!


Most of them sat in hangars. And for how much they flew they had quite a lot of accidents. They lost in accidents as many 47M as their claimed victories were, around 10. Not at all impressive, considering that 56th FG pilots were real veterans (their group had the biggest score in whole USAAF).


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 10:53 PM
One P-47N was provided for "evaluation".

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 11:27 PM
Great news gents, Gibbage is looking at making a P-47N! Let's all hope and offer any help we can to make it happen. This is great news for me and I am sure many of us Jug lovers. I always liked the clipped wings of the "N" very sexy big girl. What can I say the only fat girls I ever liked were made by Republic. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
~S!
Eagle CO 361st vFG

P.S.
Huckbein your post is utter B.S. the 56th FG used the "M" very effectively. The only problem they had was fouling and rust in the piston chamber due to the shipping over seas. Once they figured it out all of the engines were then pulled and rebuilt. The P-47M was mostly a testbed for the long range "N". But was used by the 56th to shoot down ME 262's and V-1's to name a few of their victims while flying this plane.


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<center>
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Message Edited on 10/17/0312:11AM by Eagle_361st

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:30 AM
Huckbein wrote:

Not at all impressive, considering
- that 56th FG pilots were real veterans (their group
- had the biggest score in whole USAAF).

Well, close. The 4th had more total kills if air to air and air to ground are added. If you just go by air to air kills, the 56th was second. The 56th was number one in the 8th AF in air to air kills.

The 56th felt the M model was a heck of an airplane. The type had an extended wringing out set of problems. They were up and running by the end of the war, when there was a dearth of targets.

If we agree the 56th was an outstanding unit, flying a fine A/C, then I will accept their evaluation that the M model was better than the previous T-Bolts.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:54 AM
Hangar queens, I don't think so:

just some of them:


44-21### P-47M 63 UN- Hughes F/O Melvin J The Mighty Myth
44-21112 P-47M 63 UN-Z Bostwick Maj. George E Ugly Duckling
44-21118 P-47M 63 UN-S Shupe Lt. Arthur T
44-21120 P-47M 63 UN-L
44-21121 P-47M 63 UN-C Campbell Lt. Russell W
44-21126 P-47M 63 UN-S Stebleton Lt. Samuel F Lost 2 April 45 - Mid-air collision
44-21131 P-47M 63 UN-X Bailey Lt. Robert E Darlin' Dottie
44-21132 P-47M 63 UN-K Keeler Lt. John W Mrs. K
44-21134 P-47M 63 UN-P Conger Maj. Paul A Bernyce
44-21134 P-47M 63 UN-P Hoffman Lt. William R Teacher's Pet Lost in this a/c 13 April 45 - KIA
44-21135 P-47M 63 UN-A Arnold Lt. John A
44-21137 P-47M 63 UN-E Crosthwaite Lt. Edwin M
44-21140 P-47M 63 UN-F Flagg Capt. Walter L Shoot - You're Faded / Darling Dottie
44-21141 P-47M 63 UN-N Barrentine Lt. Emmett S
44-21141 P-47M 63 UN-N Murphy Lt. Randel L Jr "Pat" The Brat
44-21149 P-47M 63 UN-T Smith Lt. Thomas W Jr. "Ole Miss" Lib Named for his wife "Lib"(Elizabeth) who had returned to complete her senior year at "Ole Miss" (University of Mississippi)
44-21150 P-47M 63 UN-M McBath Capt. Charles T Dottie Dee II (+ artwork of cartoon wolf )
44-21152 P-47M 63 UN-H
44-21153 P-47M 63 UN-W Queen Lt. Thomas W Sylvia
44-21154 P-47M 63 UN-J Shupe Lt. Arthur T
44-21154 P-47M 63 UN-J Vest Lt. Boss E
44-21157 P-47M 63 UN-D Davis Lt. James T Margaret
44-21157 P-47M 63 UN-D Naylor Lt. James C
44-21160 P-47M 63 UN-F Fahringer Capt. John C Devastatin' Deb
44-21160 P-47M 63 UN-J
44-21163 P-47M 63 UN-S Clark Capt. Charles R
44-21175 P-47M 63 UN-Z Dawson Lt. Paul C Zemke's Woolfpack
44-21178 P-47M 63 UN-V Smith Lt. Vernon A
44-21181 P-47M 63 UN-H Hennesey Lt. Thomas B
44-21185 P-47M 63 UN-M Martin Lt. Arthur J
44-21186 P-47M 63 UN-H Hennessy Lt. Thomas B
44-21189 P-47M 63 UN-I Dawson Lt. Paul C
44-21194 P-47M 63 UN-X
44-21196 P-47M 63 UN-G Bradshaw Lt. John T Yorkshire Lass
44-21198 P-47M 63 UN-V Smith Lt. Vernon A
44-21201 P-47M 63 UN-C
44-21203 P-47M 63 UN-A Andermatt Lt. Eugene Miss June (R)
44-21215 P-47M 63 UN-K
44-21217 P-47M 63 UN-O Ogden Lt. Frank A
44-21221 P-47M 63 UN-C Charlton Lt. Wade B Pinkie (artwork of pink elephant) Info. Via Lt. Charlton
44-21222 P-47M 63 UN-S Scherz Lt. Willard C Scherz KIFA 5 March 45
44-21225 P-47M 63 UN-K Kuhn Lt. Philip G Fire Ball a/c shared with Lt. Russell Kyler
44-21226 P-47M 63 UN-G Groce Lt. Walter R
44-21226 P-47M 63 UN-G Stebelton Lt. Samuel F
44-21234 P-47M 63 UN-R
44-21### P-47M 63 UN- Taylor Lt. Carter "Tree" Sal Gal Nam



Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:34 PM
Gibbage..if you do the N for us we will be eternally grateful...I may even name my fist born (well with my 20 year old new g/f when i find her) LOL after you. that's my second first born that is.....future new wife. LOL I was in Florida visiting my daughter 2 weeks ago and went to teh Eglin AFB museum. They have an N model there. I wish the pictures had turned out better. That is one sweet looking bird. They also had a P-51D sitting next to it. The Jug dwarfs in my opinion teh Stang. Both looked really nice tho.


http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 10:35 PM
Go Gibbage! Just hope the FM matches close as possible the real one.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid84/pcf14831e07273a1e01a33fb0e5650ffa/face10c7.jpg


Lead Whiner for the P-47D-40, M and N and Hvars

The_Blue_Devil
10-21-2003, 11:52 PM
BUMP!!!!!

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center>Lt.Col Mike "Devil" Brown
XO 361st Virtual Fighter Group </center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 03:19 PM
Bump, I hope .50s get fixed and the d27s roll rate.

<center>http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/LS1.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:23 PM
Thanks for the 300th post.

And let keep this little request gentle and friendly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:38 PM
bump for an M and/or an N w/ a clean wing option Please

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid84/pcf14831e07273a1e01a33fb0e5650ffa/face10c7.jpg


Lead Whiner for the P-47D-40, M and N and Hvars

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 09:39 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- PzKpfw wrote:
-- So let's get this straight Huck'ster, now theire is
-- some critera to meet before sugesting adding any
-- planes, be added. Does this critera of yours say
-- apply to especialy rare planes, planes that saw
-- little service in small numbers like the Ta-152H?.
-- Or planes that saw service in larger numbers for the
-- last few months of the war like the P-47M only?.
-
-
- 47M saw action in larger numbers?? how many Ms were
- operational from 130 built? What was the procent of
- P-47M from total number of allied prop fighters
- operational at the end of the war? Compare that
- procent with that of Ta152H.
- You can call me Huck, thanks.
-

LOL its Huck the almighty again. How many 109ks built? Hmm about 750 in Oct 44. Too little to late by that time Germany could do nothing to slow the tide of allied airforces. And thats if they could find gas or pilots to fly them. The point is the 109K was just as irrelavant to the war as the P-47M was. You dont here US players whining that the 109K is in the game so neither should you. It seems you think from every post I have ever read of yours that Oleg created FB just for you. And he should only try to please you, not the millions of others you purchased the game. Anytime anybody creates a thread concerning US planes you come running with your torch. Germany lost the war its time you realized that. If in your mind you think different I suggest you take a drive by Ramstein AB that should help remind you who won and who lost.

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/p-38_lightning/images/p-38_spread_large.jpg


Message Edited on 10/22/0306:58PM by VMF-214_HaVoK

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 09:57 PM
Please no flamewar or "who has the biggest one" competition /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

There's no debate about the status of the P-47M, this aircraft served operationnally in Europe in 1945 and, altough a rather rare variant, in an enough number to be a valid add for this game.

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 10:30 PM
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- PzKpfw wrote:
--- So let's get this straight Huck'ster, now theire is
--- some critera to meet before sugesting adding any
--- planes, be added. Does this critera of yours say
--- apply to especialy rare planes, planes that saw
--- little service in small numbers like the Ta-152H?.
--- Or planes that saw service in larger numbers for the
--- last few months of the war like the P-47M only?.
--
--
-- 47M saw action in larger numbers?? how many Ms were
-- operational from 130 built? What was the procent of
-- P-47M from total number of allied prop fighters
-- operational at the end of the war? Compare that
-- procent with that of Ta152H.
-- You can call me Huck, thanks.
--
-
-

Better talk to you bud Issy, there Huckie, for he wants the 109K-6 and K-14 included in FB. Care to gives us the production quantities for these 2 a/c?


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 12:41 AM
An interesting P-47M:

http://www.web-birds.com/8th/56/56-07.jpg


Notice the dorsal fin, P-47N style.

BTW, this plane was on display following VE day in Paris at the Eiffel Tower, along with several other warplane. My grandfather was there and I have his photo collection. He has several personal photos of this very plane.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/jug_sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:26 AM
bUMP!!!

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. Semper Invictus! <img src ="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509047.jpg">

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:41 AM
skychimp do you have any more photos of zemekes wolfpacks p47s i was suppost to create one for someone but forgot who asked for it.

<center>http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/LS1.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:54 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- skychimp do you have any more photos of zemekes
- wolfpacks p47s i was suppost to create one for
- someone but forgot who asked for it.
-
- <center>http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/LS1.txt
- Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't.
- (c) Leadspitter</center>

Go here:

http://www.web-birds.com/8th/56

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/jug_sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:20 AM
Bump/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/p-38_lightning/images/p-38_head_on.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
10-24-2003, 04:39 AM
I can't wait to take up the M against some Japanese planes... BBQ anyone?

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center>Lt.Col Mike "Devil" Brown
XO 361st Virtual Fighter Group </center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:48 AM
Man we got to get an M! I mean there are Lw ac line up to be added that barly made it off the drawing board! Not to mention some that barly produced 200+! The M production levels were not large.. but they are much larger then some of the propose aircraft and the M saw service!!

I WANT MY M TV.. I mean M IL2



<div style="background:#222222;color:#e0e0e0;font-size:24px;font-weight:bold;font-face:courier;"> TAGERT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?
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http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discussion

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 11:03 PM
An M w/ the pylons optional when flying clean!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid84/pcf14831e07273a1e01a33fb0e5650ffa/face10c7.jpg


Lead Whiner for the P-47D-40, M and N and Hvars

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 12:04 AM
So, is someone building this plane then? Thats the impression I'm starting to get.

It would be interesting to have to be sure. Extra armament options and performance. It'd still be a heavy beast...but I love the P-47 online now.

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 02:24 AM
<img src=http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/lszemkes.txt>

<center>http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LS1.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 02:29 AM
i like the writing! just like the picture!

Nw who's going to do the M to hang a skin on? I sure the heck can't


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid84/pcf14831e07273a1e01a33fb0e5650ffa/face10c7.jpg


Lead Whiner for the P-47D-40, M and N and Hvars

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 03:02 AM
Looks like I'm a little late for this party. Anyway, big BUMP for the P-47M and N./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


(Btw,why not try to find a 3rd party modeller to do it?)

<center>47|FC <img src="http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg"<

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 03:05 AM
I read back much further and someone said Gibbage may take it on...but that seems unlikely since he has his hands full. Perhaps someone else...

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 04:15 AM
Yeah,I remember Gib saying something about that. OT,but I wish he would do the Hellcat and Wildcat as well....probably wishful thinking....

<center>47|FC <img src="http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg"<

The_Blue_Devil
10-28-2003, 07:36 PM
Tell you what..I'll pay out of my own pocket to get that plane modelled, hell if we took 20 bucks from every Jug fanatic we could come up with a huge wad of cash to get the building and programming done.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center>Lt.Col Mike "Devil" Brown
XO 361st Virtual Fighter Group </center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 04:16 AM
Chimp, Any one care to explain the differances between the M & N. I personnaly want Both the M & N. I dont remember wich but one was used to hunt the V bombs.

<CENTER>
http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1022.jpg

<FONT COLOR="White">Ghost Skies Matches Starting soon!
<CENTER><FONT COLOR="blue">
Please visit the 310th FS & 380th BG Online @:
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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 05:25 AM
This post is pure comedy /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I hope CHDT gets his "M" for pure persistance....!

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 06:07 AM
try here, for starters

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/



Copperhead310th wrote:
- Chimp, Any one care to explain the differances
- between the M & N. I personnaly want Both the M & N.
- I dont remember wich but one was used to hunt the V
- bombs.
-
-

but in the mean time

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47N.jpg


http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.jpg


Notice the wing tips.


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 10:12 AM
S!


Beauty of a Pic Lead !



Bring on the Jugs M & N Models !

Braveheart's William Wallace said it best:
"I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do without freedom? Will you fight? Fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live, at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willing, to trade all the days from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!"

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 11:04 AM
Before getting a M, I would rather have a D-27 with working turbo-supercharger, and maybe an D-30 too./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If anyone at my Funeral has a long face, I'll never speak to him again.
Stan Laurel



EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 08:08 AM
Bump!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif !

http://www.angelfire.com/ab4/airplanes/P47_Thunderbolt/P47.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
11-03-2003, 03:01 PM
BUMP!! Too good to let DIE!!!

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center>Lt.Col Mike "Devil" Brown
XO 361st Virtual Fighter Group </center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
11-03-2003, 03:28 PM
he_Blue_Devil wrote:
- Tell you what..I'll pay out of my own pocket to get
- that plane modelled, hell if we took 20 bucks from
- every Jug fanatic we could come up with a huge wad
- of cash to get the building and programming done.

Here is my 20. I'm in. What do you say gib????


http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/sig.jpg

Flying_Merkava
06-21-2004, 08:28 PM
Ganna bring this post back form the dead.
"It had a climb rate at sea level of 4,900 fpm. At 20,000 feet, it was still rocketing up at 4,400 fpm, and got there in 4 minutes, 15 seconds. Time to 30,000 feet was only 6 minutes, 45 seconds. Now that's an interceptor! Yet it had a usable range of 1,075 miles. Rather impressive, don't you think? No, this was not a stripped down hotrod. It was fully armed and carried ballast in the wings equal to 267 rds per gun. The aircraft was flown to a height of 46,500 feet and was capable of a bit more." - http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.html

Now those are some crazy numbers; 4900 fpm is like the Yak-9U. The site also has info on the P-47N. Try to compare it in your mind with the P-47D we got currently.

BigKahuna_GS
06-21-2004, 11:41 PM
S!


A blast from the past-hope these 2 planes make it !
The P47M has great high altitude speed on pretty much the same airframe as a P47D-30. I realize that planes do not engage each other at their top end speeds, but having tremendus speed 470+mph @ 34,300ft and high altitude power enables an aircraft to engage and disengage at will during a dogfight.

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/P-47M56fg.JPG
These P-47M-1-RE fighters belong to the 56th Fighter Group. These are fitted with wing pylons for external stores. P-47Ms were originally produced without pylons, which were deemed unnecessary for chasing V-1 flying bombs. Once free of that duty, pylons were quickly added. The nearest fighter is that belonging to Lt. Col. Pete Dade.



Right out of the starting gate, the XP-47M the horse to beat in terms of speed. The XP-47M proved to be nearly as fast as the XP-47J. 488 mph was obtained on at least one flight. The official maximum speed is 470 mph. However, over-boosting the engine could tweak another 15 to 20 mph out of the big fighter. As mid June of 1944 arrived, so did the first of Germany's Vengeance weapons. Flying at speeds right around 400 mph., the V-1 was not easy to intercept prior to flying over populated areas, where knocking it down could have a worse effect than leaving it alone. Many of the RAF's latest fighters were thrown into intercepting the "Buzz Bombs", preferably over the English Channel. Tempests, late Mark Spitfires and even the jet powered (but not especially fast) Meteors were put to work intercepting the deadly "Doodle Bugs".

Upon the USAAF being informed of the XP-47M, three YP-47M development aircraft were immediately ordered. These were built using P-47D-27-RE fighters straight off the production line. Having already logged hundreds of flights with the XP-47M, beginning in mid 1943, Republic had a big leg up in terms of development time. Actual production P-47M fighters used the P-47D-30-RE as the basic airframe.

The production P-47M fighters did not reach operational status until after many of the V-1 launch sites were over-run by Allied ground forces. Deployed to 3 squadrons of the 56th Fighter Group, the new fighter likely did not chase very many flying bombs. Inasmuch as most aviation historians claim that the P-47M was designed specifically to intercept the V-1, it will come as a surprise to them to learn that the prototype existed more than a year before the first V-1 was launched at Britain. Moreover, the P-47D, deployed in large numbers, was certainly fast enough to overtake the V-1. It was only coincidence that the XP-47M and the R-2800 C series engines were available when the V-1's began falling on London.

The new M models also suffered a fair amount of teething troubles. The C series engines suffered from high altitude ignition leaks and burned pistons. The 56th kept many of their older D models until the new M had its bugs corrected. Nonetheless, once sorted out, the P-47M was the fastest propeller driven fighter to see combat service in any Air Force in the ETO. Capable of speeds up to 475 mph, the M was a true "hotrod".

As the German army was pushed closer to the border of their homeland, newer sub-models of the P-47D found their way into service. The P-47D-27-RE arrived with an up-rated engine of 2,430 hp. and Hamilton-Standard propeller. The P-47D-28-RA was essentially the same aircraft, but used a Curtiss Electric prop. Some of the next to last sub-model, the P-47D-30-RE, incorporated a new dorsal fillet at the base of the rudder assembly. Virtually all of the final D model, the P-47D-40-RA had the fillet installed. The loss of side area due to the cutting down of the fuselage (to accommodate the bubble canopy), reduced the linear stability of the bubble topped Jugs. This could lead to a loss of control if rudder deflection was too great at low speeds. The fillet partially corrected this rudder force over-balance condition. It would not be fully eliminated until the final production model of the Thunderbolt. The P-47D-40-RA was the first P-47 to have the new K-14 gunsight installed at the factory. It was also the first Thunderbolt to carry the new tail warning radar equipment.

As the war in the Europe came to end in early May of 1945, the mighty P-47 Thunderbolt was to shoot down its last aerial adversary on May 4th. The victim was one of the speedy Me 262 jet fighters. By May 6th, only armed recon missions were being flown in the ETO. Two days later, the war with Germany was officially at an end.

While peace had come to Europe, war was still raging on the other side of the world. It was in the far reaches of the Pacific that the latest, and possibly greatest model of the P-47 would hurl itself at the Japanese. Too late to impact the war in Europe, the P-47N would set a new standard for single engine long range performance.




http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Xp-47n.jpg
At 250 mph TAS, the N attained a maximum roll rate just over 100 degrees/second. The P-47D-30-RE could manage but 85 degrees/second at the same speed. At higher speeds, the N widened the gap further. In mock combat with a P-47D-25-RE, the new fighter proved to be notably superior in every category of performance. In short, the XP-47 waxed the venerable D model regardless of who was piloting the older fighter.

The new wing was part of this newfound dogfighting ability, however, the more powerful C series engine played a role too. The additional horsepower allowed the N to retain its energy better than the older Thunderbolt. Perhaps the greatest performance increase was in maximum speed. Though not as fast as the stunning P-47M, the heavier N was fully 40 mph faster than the P-47D-25-RE and could generate speeds 30 mph greater than its principal rival, the Mustang. Scorching along at 467 mph @ 32,000 ft..




Go to Chapter Eight



Return to the Planes and Pilots of WWII



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

dadada1
06-22-2004, 04:42 AM
We don't need it.

MEGILE
06-22-2004, 06:14 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif

Late model P-47s....yes please

http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/p51light.bmp

BigKahuna_GS
06-22-2004, 11:05 AM
S!


We do need these planes. The ultimate version of the P47, the P47M & N models.It would be very easy to model as the M model was based on the P47D-30 airframe.

How many versions of the 109 and 190 do we have leading right up to 1945 ?
The P47M saw considerably more combat than Ta152 that is in FB. The P47N was a mainstay fighter of the USAAF in the Pacific. These are important fighters that should be included.

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/P-47M56fg.JPG These P-47M-1-RE fighters belong to the 56th Fighter Group. These are fitted with wing pylons for external stores. P-47Ms were originally produced without pylons, which were deemed unnecessary for chasing V-1 flying bombs. Once free of that duty, pylons were quickly added. The nearest fighter is that belonging to Lt. Col. Pete Dade.

Right out of the starting gate, the XP-47M the horse to beat in terms of speed. The XP-47M proved to be nearly as fast as the XP-47J. 488 mph was obtained on at least one flight. The official maximum speed is 470 mph. However, over-boosting the engine could tweak another 15 to 20 mph out of the big fighter. As mid June of 1944 arrived, so did the first of Germany's Vengeance weapons. Flying at speeds right around 400 mph., the V-1 was not easy to intercept prior to flying over populated areas, where knocking it down could have a worse effect than leaving it alone. Many of the RAF's latest fighters were thrown into intercepting the "Buzz Bombs", preferably over the English Channel. Tempests, late Mark Spitfires and even the jet powered (but not especially fast) Meteors were put to work intercepting the deadly "Doodle Bugs".

Upon the USAAF being informed of the XP-47M, three YP-47M development aircraft were immediately ordered. These were built using P-47D-27-RE fighters straight off the production line. Having already logged hundreds of flights with the XP-47M, beginning in mid 1943, Republic had a big leg up in terms of development time. Actual production P-47M fighters used the P-47D-30-RE as the basic airframe.

The production P-47M fighters did not reach operational status until after many of the V-1 launch sites were over-run by Allied ground forces. Deployed to 3 squadrons of the 56th Fighter Group, the new fighter likely did not chase very many flying bombs. Inasmuch as most aviation historians claim that the P-47M was designed specifically to intercept the V-1, it will come as a surprise to them to learn that the prototype existed more than a year before the first V-1 was launched at Britain. Moreover, the P-47D, deployed in large numbers, was certainly fast enough to overtake the V-1. It was only coincidence that the XP-47M and the R-2800 C series engines were available when the V-1's began falling on London.

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

WUAF_Badsight
06-22-2004, 11:38 PM
give us the IL-10 first

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WUAF_Badsight
06-22-2004, 11:40 PM
as for the 109 & 190 comment . . . .

the german fighter plane selection has just 2 planes in it

the 109 & 190

we actually need more varients to counter all the Allied A/C

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
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WOLFMondo
06-23-2004, 01:36 AM
If it flew and saw combat and someones modelling it and theres time to program the FM/DM for it then put it in. I'd love to fly it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
as for the 109 & 190 comment . . . .

the german fighter plane selection has just 2 planes in it

the 109 & 190

we actually need more varients to counter all the Allied A/C

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not like the LW had another major production fighter in service that we don't have in gamehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif I think a flyable Me410 maybe overdue though.

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BigKahuna_GS
06-23-2004, 02:05 AM
S!
__________________________________________________ ________________________
WUAF Badsight--as for the 109 & 190 comment . . . .
the german fighter plane selection has just 2 planes in it
the 109 & 190 we actually need more varients to counter all the Allied A/C
__________________________________________________ _________________________


Wouldnt you consider the Ta152 an entirly different plane than the 109 or 190? Plus you have the Me262 and other jet/rocket variations. I say the more planes the better as long as they saw combat before the war ended.

There is currently 14 variations of the 109 and 8 variations of the 190. The Me262 has 3 models. Then there is Me163 Comet and the rest of the jets.

The P47 has 3 models with the best versions left out----the P47M & N. There is even talk that the P47N may not even be included in Pacific Fighters. The P47N was a mainstay USAAF fighter and specificaly designed for the PTO. That would just simply be wrong if the P47N is not in PF.


____________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

dadada1
06-23-2004, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
S!


We do need these planes. The ultimate version of the P47, the P47M & N models.It would be very easy to model as the M model was based on the P47D-30 airframe.

How many versions of the 109 and 190 do we have leading right up to 1945 ?
The P47M saw considerably more combat than Ta152 that is in FB. The P47N was a mainstay fighter of the USAAF in the Pacific. These are important fighters that should be included.

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/P-47M56fg.JPG These P-47M-1-RE fighters belong to the 56th Fighter Group. These are fitted with wing pylons for external stores. P-47Ms were originally produced without pylons, which were deemed unnecessary for chasing V-1 flying bombs. Once free of that duty, pylons were quickly added. The nearest fighter is that belonging to Lt. Col. Pete Dade.

Right out of the starting gate, the XP-47M the horse to beat in terms of speed. The XP-47M proved to be nearly as fast as the XP-47J. 488 mph was obtained on at least one flight. The official maximum speed is 470 mph. However, over-boosting the engine could tweak another 15 to 20 mph out of the big fighter. As mid June of 1944 arrived, so did the first of Germany's Vengeance weapons. Flying at speeds right around 400 mph., the V-1 was not easy to intercept prior to flying over populated areas, where knocking it down could have a worse effect than leaving it alone. Many of the RAF's latest fighters were thrown into intercepting the "Buzz Bombs", preferably over the English Channel. Tempests, late Mark Spitfires and even the jet powered (but not especially fast) Meteors were put to work intercepting the deadly "Doodle Bugs".

Upon the USAAF being informed of the XP-47M, three YP-47M development aircraft were immediately ordered. These were built using P-47D-27-RE fighters straight off the production line. Having already logged hundreds of flights with the XP-47M, beginning in mid 1943, Republic had a big leg up in terms of development time. Actual production P-47M fighters used the P-47D-30-RE as the basic airframe.

The production P-47M fighters did not reach operational status until after many of the V-1 launch sites were over-run by Allied ground forces. Deployed to 3 squadrons of the 56th Fighter Group, the new fighter likely did not chase very many flying bombs. Inasmuch as most aviation historians claim that the P-47M was designed specifically to intercept the V-1, it will come as a surprise to them to learn that the prototype existed more than a year before the first V-1 was launched at Britain. Moreover, the P-47D, deployed in large numbers, was certainly fast enough to overtake the V-1. It was only coincidence that the XP-47M and the R-2800 C series engines were available when the V-1's began falling on London.

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"





<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was hoping for a response like this. Actually I don't object at all to it's inclusion, the more prop planes we have the better as far as I'm concerned. I was merely playing devils advocate because of the overwhelming howls of "no we dont need it" when somone suggests that it would be nice to have the FW 190 D11 or D13 in game. Okay both types were rare and saw limited service. Look at it this way, more diverse and interesting opponents for all the P38,47, 51's to shoot down. You cant' tell me that what goes on in Dogfight servers in any way resembles historial events, so no objections on that front then. Historical servers, well they can limit planesets of course. So what can really be the source of protest against the inclusion of such aircraft, I dont relly believe there is a logical rational. IL 2 has gone far beyond it's original intention of creating a sim based on the EASTERN FRONT. It has evolved and we are all going to have to live with that. So anytime there is a request for rare bird, please no screams of indignation, surley more aicraft is beneficial for use all whether Allied or Axis. As for the P47M or Ns inclusion I say yes lets have it, but in return I dont want protest if anything other than allied planes are suggested for inclusion.

WUAF_Badsight
06-23-2004, 04:14 AM
the P-47 N Absolutly deserves to be in PF

the P-51H too

would be dissapointing for them not to be

regardless of the new maps & planes into FB ..... it still is a Eastern Theater based game & the interesting european planes should be given priority over any others for FB inclusion




.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BigKahuna_GS
06-23-2004, 05:39 AM
S!

I think we are in agreement http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have absolutely no problem with the addition of aircraft on both sides that actually saw combat in the ETO. The P47M should be in FB/AEP. The P47N should be in Pacific Fighters.

I broke it down easily-if the Ta152 is in FB so should be the P47M.


_____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Diablo310th
06-23-2004, 10:26 AM
Kahuna...I'm with you . WE really need teh M and N models. I would love to be able to fly either or both of these hotrods. I alos would like to see teh otehr models of teh FW 190 for teh axis side too. If it flew lets have it. The good thing about teh M model is that it would only need a small amount of work needed to include it. But alas...Oleg said many moons ago that he would NOT include the M model. We can only hope for teh N to be in PF. 361stEagle..any news on the progress of the N model for PF?

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif

Tommel6
06-23-2004, 01:38 PM
I'll add my opinion... I'd like to see a P-47M in IL2FB and a P-47N in PF...

-Tom

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v126/tommel/SIG%20Forum%20pictures/P47Office.jpg

RED_BEAR8
06-23-2004, 02:17 PM
well i will add my opinion too

i woudl like to see the P47M on FB i think its not that macht a problem it is almost similar to the 47 D 3d model.

Also i hope to see the P47N on the PF or here too...

By the way i have been out for some time MY MOBO FRAYOUT http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.... what happens with the p47n 3d model i think thunderbolt56 (with a contracted 3d modeller)was developed?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/353.gif ... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p1ngu666
06-23-2004, 03:05 PM
naw that was jv44_priller who made it
i havent spoken to priller for ages, and eagle for a few days
ill poke eagle about it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
i cant remmber olegs reason for not having M http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

id love a M, because p37d is really outclassed in most areas by late war german fighters. seeing as we dont even have a dive advantage http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

i think maybe M had a very different cockpit or something too.
but alot of p47's where field modded to M spec engines or around that also.
i know priller considered making the p67 or p72, 70litre engine omglots of bhp, and 4x 37mm and 500mph easy in level flighthttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
couldnt find decent plans tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

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WOLFMondo
06-24-2004, 03:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tommel6:
I'll add my opinion... I'd like to see a P-47M in IL2FB and a P-47N in PF...

-Tom

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v126/tommel/SIG%20Forum%20pictures/P47Office.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to see PF as a IL2:FB addon, not a stand alone product which will divide the community. Then its down to the map builders to make sure maps are historically accurate with the right planes.

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KG26_Oranje
06-24-2004, 05:04 AM
Wy not a new flyable bomber!!!!
Not a new fighter again!!!!

I/KG26_Oranje

p1ngu666
06-24-2004, 06:50 AM
the M was a bomber late in its career :P
cetainly heavy enuff tobe a bomber http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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WOLFMondo
06-24-2004, 06:52 AM
Well the P47 is about as destructive as a light or medium bomber so... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

New bombers are always a bonus though.

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p1ngu666
06-24-2004, 02:15 PM
the p47N weighed more than a do17 from BOB time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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BigKahuna_GS
06-24-2004, 03:56 PM
S!

__________________________________________________ _________________________
p1ngu666
the p47N weighed more than a do17 from BOB time
__________________________________________________ _________________________


The P47N probably had way more horsepower than the D0-17 also. I think it had a Pratt & Whitney rated at around 2800hp without boost.



_______

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

p1ngu666
06-25-2004, 06:39 AM
2800 max "officaly"
probably ran more with some of the more enterprising grease monkeys out there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
that was fully loaded btw, had massive amounts of fuel http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Snuffy_Hadden
06-25-2004, 06:47 AM
Why not even out the plane set a little bit.

We have enough Luftwhiner and Luftimagination planes. It's time for more real planes.

*** "Proud Member of the White Star Protectorate Society!" ***

ShVAK
06-25-2004, 01:20 PM
I have mixed opinions on having the M/N in this game, as our (56th)` Group already does relatively well with our standard bastion - the P-47D10.

The PRO side of an M/N model in this game would be to have something quicker in speed and also has a faster rate of climb, thereby being better able to combat the later model fighters.

Unfortunately, the downside is that all the ******s who fly Ki-84c's and other such planes would now probably fly the M/N instead. While I enjoy flying the P-47 (almost exclusively), I further enjoy that there are not too many opponents who fly this same aircraft.

If they do add the P-47M/N, I hope they also add La-9's and similar, so we dedicated Jug pilots would be able to still enjoy some exclusiveness!


"If you want full realism, join the military!"

BigKahuna_GS
06-25-2004, 03:47 PM
S!

I dont think you need to worry about the P47M being loved by the nooby pilots. It is still a Jug after all and requires skill and thought on how to fly it. It is no where near the turn and burn Ki84 down in the weeds type of flying.

If you want to survive in the Jug you stay high and boom n zoom. It's just that the P47M will have a lot of BOOM N ZOOM @ 470+mph http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


______

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

DaBallz
06-25-2004, 04:29 PM
First a few things about the "C" series P&W R-2800.

All combat P-47s were powered by a "B" or "C"
series R-2800.

The P-47M and P-47N were powered by the C series
R-2800.

The C series shared little in common with the B series
in the way of parts interchangability.
they shared the same bore and stroke and basic
power section dimensions.

Major changes (improvments)include a splined
crankshaft instead of keyed and pressed.

Forged cooling muffs and heads on the cylinders instead
of cast muffs and heads.

Redesigned master and slave rods.

Stronger reduction drive.

Different valve lift and timing (new cam rings).

Early versions shared the same magneto's and carbs.
Later P&W went to low tension magnetoes and
booster coils at the spark plugs.

The C series was far superior in every respect
over the B series. Stronger, better cooling
and far more reliable.

Where they went wrong was VERY simple. There
was a lack of development time in the P-47.
Over cooling compounded by highly leaded fuels
resulted in failures. There were other bugs
and some were the result of pilot error
due to a lack of training with the new powerplant. I never heard of corrosion problems
but I can not discount it.

The legend about running a R-2800 at power levels
of 3,600HP are at best just that, legend.
At that time a new fuel for piston engines
was being tested, it got the knick name "Triptane".
In a 65% mix with 115-145 it netted a PN of 200/300(!).
I saw the same legendary test posted in the on line
article as a test with a triptane blend many years ago.
The same fuel in a late Allison V-1710 produced
over 2,500 HP.


As to the claim that a R-2800 C series can produce
2,800 un boosted, not a chance. Impossible.

All combat engines of WWII were supercharged/boosted.
The R-2800 instalation in all P-47s used the
standard single stage fixed ratio (single speed so to speak)
engine mounted supercharger and a fuselage
mounted exhaust driven turbosupercharger.

While I have never heard of a P-47 flying in combat
without it's turbocharger installed and working
it is possible some were disabled.
I know of only one surviving P-47 with an operational
turbo.

Bottom line, they all ran with boost.
With a compression ratio of under 7:1
and a rev limit of 2,700RPM an R-2800
breathing sea level air with NO boost at all
(like your automobile at full power) would
probibly produce about 1,100HP.


Da...

BigKahuna_GS
06-26-2004, 08:29 PM
S!

Thanks De Ballz interesting info.

Corrosion problems were reportedly from poor preperation and packing during transport to England.



_______

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Willey
06-27-2004, 04:21 PM
A 47M would be cool.

But I'd like to see those bomb loads fixed on the other 47s first http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif. Looks like they mixed up 1000lb and 500lb bombs. The wing racks carried the bigger ones IRL.

BigKahuna_GS
06-30-2004, 08:27 AM
S!



With HVARS too !



____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Flying_Merkava
06-30-2004, 08:23 PM
Hey after being outdove by a ki-84, la, and p-63 many times I have a better question: How about they fix the damn P-47D already in the game?

Diablo310th
07-01-2004, 06:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flying_Merkava:
Hey after being outdove by a ki-84, la, and p-63 many times I have a better question: How about they fix the damn P-47D already in the game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could not agree more. But i would still love to see an M and N model done too. Of course all done right.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif

MEGILE
07-01-2004, 08:34 AM
BUMP! The jug is an awsome plane, but we could do with some later variants!!!!
Please Oleg give us us Jugs!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.2and2.net/Uploads/Images/p51light.bmp

Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 174

Aaron_GT
07-01-2004, 03:36 PM
"Originally posted by Flying_Merkava:
Hey after being outdove by a ki-84, la, and p-63 many times I have a better question: How about they fix the damn P-47D already in the game?"

What's the problem with it?

BigKahuna_GS
07-02-2004, 11:07 AM
S!

__________________________________________________ ___________________________
"Originally posted by Flying_Merkava:
Hey after being outdove by a ki-84, la, and p-63 many times I have a better question: How about they fix the damn P-47D already in the game?"

Aarongt--What's the problem with it?
__________________________________________________ ___________________________



I think he is refering to the dive acceleration not being fast enough. Several dive tests have been posted, one being an actual "real" test of an early 190a5 and a P47D-10. From 10,000ft at a starting speed of 200mph, the P47 caught and passed the 190 at the 3,000ft mark with much greater speed and angle of pull out.

I tried to replicate this test in FB/AEP and it cannot be done. The 47 does not accelerate fast enough during the 7000ft it dives in. What is also interesting is the story of a rookie P51 pilot encounter with Erik Hartman and his 109. For a rookie he does a dam good job of hanging with one of worlds best fighter pilot-but that's another story.

In the story itself, the P51 pilot says the P51 has a 60mph dive advantage over a 109 :

[All data from ]virtualpilots.fi ] From the Fin site.
SPEED CONVERSION
60 Miles (statute) per hour equals 96.5606 Kilometers per hour

Lawrence Thompson
=============
"I fired two very long bursts, probably five seconds each (P-51 has ammo for about 18 seconds of continuous bursts for four machine guns, the remaining two machine guns will shoot for about 24 seconds). I noticed that part of his engine cowling flew off and he immediately broke off his attack on the lead P-51. I check my rear view mirrors and there's nothing behind me now; somehow, I have managed to lose the Me109 following me, probably because the diving speed of the P-51 is sixty mph faster than the Me109."

In Shaws Fighter Combat Manuvering it also says US planes had dive superiority.


--------

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Diablo310th
07-02-2004, 11:22 AM
yeah that kind of acceleration in a dive and the corresponding zoom climb would be nice...I guess I need to add that to my Jug Dreams. Honestly tho I don't see it changing...not in FB at least. Maybe when we get the N model in PF. For now we live with what we ahve and make the most of it. At least it's rewarding when i can make a kill and then outrun Fehler,Rall, GenSwat and HeinzBar afterwards back to base. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif ~S~ guys.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif

RedDeth
07-02-2004, 11:53 AM
bump. "make it so"

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://66.237.29.231/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1088291823_taylor-greycap.jpg

Bull_dog_
07-02-2004, 12:21 PM
Energy/dive modelling has been discussed many times and many agree that it is not right in this game, myself included. Of course, I am not exactly sure what is right, but this I know from combat and pilot reports as well as testing, some aircraft had significant advantages for both offensive and defensive purposes in the dive, and this simply doesn't exist in FB today.

It is unfortunate because I think much of the aggrevation from fans of American aircraft would be greatly reduced if energy modelling were more accurate... imagine if all planes climbed the same? Flying a 109 or Spit would absolutely be aggrevating if Fw's and Jugs were climbing with you!!! The opposite is true of diving and Fw's, Jugs, Lightning, Stangs...and eventually the Pacific planes just don't enjoy this facet of an advantage as it really was.

Late model Jugs even had dive breaks and while the Lightning is most noteworthy for its compressibility problems...there are many reports of Jug and Hellcat pilots becoming lawndarts too....simply isn't modelled in the game...I suspect there are limiting factors in the FM or Oleg would have addressed this and hopefully BoB engine will allow for better dive modelling.

MEGILE
07-02-2004, 05:51 PM
BUMP, come on olegski we want our Jugs!

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51darkj.jpg

Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 174

Flying_Merkava
07-02-2004, 09:37 PM
All this talk about big Jugs is making me ***** http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

BigKahuna_GS
07-05-2004, 10:23 AM
S!

Just trying to keep the thought alive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



_____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
07-06-2004, 06:51 PM
S!
__________________________________________________ __________________________
Bull_dog_

posted 02-07-04 11:21
Energy/dive modelling has been discussed many times and many agree that it is not right in this game, myself included. Of course, I am not exactly sure what is right, but this I know from combat and pilot reports as well as testing, some aircraft had significant advantages for both offensive and defensive purposes in the dive, and this simply doesn't exist in FB today.

It is unfortunate because I think much of the aggrevation from fans of American aircraft would be greatly reduced if energy modelling were more accurate... imagine if all planes climbed the same? Flying a 109 or Spit would absolutely be aggrevating if Fw's and Jugs were climbing with you!!! The opposite is true of diving and Fw's, Jugs, Lightning, Stangs...and eventually the Pacific planes just don't enjoy this facet of an advantage as it really was.
__________________________________________________ _________________________


Couldn't agree more Bull Dog. A major tactical advantage of US fighters was dive acceleration in both the ETO & PTO. Take away the dive advantage and you take away a major componet for the P47, P38 and P51.

Many IL2/AEP diving tests have been posted over at SimHQ. Some planes known for having poor diving charectoristics--dive too well.

Hopefully BoB will model this more accurately.

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

VW-IceFire
07-06-2004, 10:26 PM
Has anyone heard from Priller recently? I worry since I haven't seen him anywhere since the Spit XVI debacle. Hopefully things are still on track for the P-47N and that it may make its way into Pacific Fighters.

There is NO reason not to have the 47N in Pacific fighters since it did serve in the PTO for several months with a bunch of Japanese fighters and ground targets to its credit. Fuel tank, HVAR, and other weapons were used.

The P-51H apparently never, ever, saw combat. Correct me if I'm wrong but I've read this in two books including what is usually the very accurate series from Squadron Signal. The P-51H is a different looking plane too...not quite as graceful as the P-51D I think.

As for the P-47M...that might be nice. But time is nearly up for FB and I'd rather see a few other favorites not represented at this point in the game.

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

p1ngu666
07-07-2004, 06:08 AM
think priller had a tiff with 361st eagle or something http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
model maybe in the hands of halfwit, and ive not seen priller on icq/hl for a while http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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CaptainGelo
07-07-2004, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
yeah that kind of acceleration in a dive and the corresponding zoom climb would be nice...I guess I need to add that to my Jug Dreams. Honestly tho I don't see it changing...not in FB at least. Maybe when we get the N model in PF. For now we live with what we ahve and make the most of it. At least it's rewarding when i can make a kill and then outrun Fehler,Rall, GenSwat and HeinzBar afterwards back to base. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif ~S~ guys.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

there will not be any problem with it BoB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
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'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

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BigKahuna_GS
07-07-2004, 08:18 AM
S!
__________________________________________________ ________________________
VW-IceFire -- As for the P-47M...that might be nice. But time is nearly up for FB and I'd rather see a few other favorites not represented at this point in the game.
__________________________________________________ ________________________


I hope time isnt up for FB just yet and I thought both FB & Paficic Fighters use the same engine. The P47M saw more combat than many of the late war planes in FB, an example being the Ta-152. This Plane would be very easy to model as it is based upon a P47D-30 airframe. I too would also like to see the Tempest and Spit 14.

To give you an idea of plane varients:


There is currently 14 variations of the 109 and 8 variations of the 190. The Me262 has 3 models. Then there is Me163 Comet and the rest of the jets.

The P47 has 3 models with the best versions left out----the P47M & N. There is even talk that the P47N may not even be included in Pacific Fighters. The P47N was a mainstay USAAF fighter and specificaly designed for the PTO. That would just simply be wrong if the P47N is not in PF.


__________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

VW-IceFire
07-07-2004, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
S!
__________________________________________________ ________________________
VW-IceFire -- As for the P-47M...that might be nice. But time is nearly up for FB and I'd rather see a few other favorites not represented at this point in the game.
__________________________________________________ ________________________


I hope time isnt up for FB just yet and I thought both FB & Paficic Fighters use the same engine. The P47M saw more combat than many of the late war planes in FB, an example being the Ta-152. This Plane would be very easy to model as it is based upon a P47D-30 airframe. I too would also like to see the Tempest and Spit 14.

To give you an idea of plane varients:


There is currently 14 variations of the 109 and 8 variations of the 190. The Me262 has 3 models. Then there is Me163 Comet and the rest of the jets.

The P47 has 3 models with the best versions left out----the P47M & N. There is even talk that the P47N may not even be included in Pacific Fighters. The P47N was a mainstay USAAF fighter and specificaly designed for the PTO. That would just simply be wrong if the P47N is not in PF.


__________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"





<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with you there. It'd be lovely to see...the word that we've unofficially heard is that support for new 3rd party models will last until the end of August and then thats it for Forgotten Battles. That may or may not be correct.

IF we've got limited time and only a certain allowance for new aircraft to be submitted then I would like to see a few others before we get another P-47...but I like the P-47 ALOT myself and having the M would be a fantastic addition...it certainly did have more of an impact than some of the other types in-game now at this point.

If we do revisit the entire ETO in 4-5 years from now (as part of Oleg's 8 year plan) then I do expect to seee the P-47M, as well as the D's and other earlier types.

Here's hoping guys...but I'm not sure what we'll see before the end.

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Diablo310th
07-07-2004, 09:01 AM
I talked to Priller right before he went offline. He told me he was moving and would be gone for a few weeks. The last he told me was that teh N model had been handed off to someone else and that teh cockpit was close to being done also. He did say that he wasn't sure it would get finished for PF tho. all we can do is hope that whoever took it over got it finished and in teh game. As for teh M model...Oleg said long ago that it would NOT be included in IL2. If i remember right he didn't think there was much difference in it from what we have nor was it flown much. I don't see us getting an M model till BoB reaches that point in teh war.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif

VW-IceFire
07-07-2004, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
I talked to Priller right before he went offline. He told me he was moving and would be gone for a few weeks. The last he told me was that teh N model had been handed off to someone else and that teh cockpit was close to being done also. He did say that he wasn't sure it would get finished for PF tho. all we can do is hope that whoever took it over got it finished and in teh game. As for teh M model...Oleg said long ago that it would NOT be included in IL2. If i remember right he didn't think there was much difference in it from what we have nor was it flown much. I don't see us getting an M model till BoB reaches that point in teh war.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ahh ok...yeah I wasn't sure why I hadn't seen him around. At least its been handed off...I suspect Pacific Fighters will have a couple of patches to add aircraft as well Luthier wanted to continue the IL2/FB tradition in terms of that. So thats a viable option...

I'm kind of hoping for a flyable FAA Firefly too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

DaBallz
07-07-2004, 11:02 AM
The difference between the P-47M and P-47D are
few. The removal of two guns and the addition
of the vertical stab strake are the only
obvious changes. The primary change is the
replacement of the "B" series P&W R-2800 with
the "C" series.

The aircraft could now achieve the claimed climb
and speed easily. the C series had few problems.
Trouble was the war was over shortly after
the bugs were sorted out.
Then war's end was not a bad thing.....

As it was the P-47M's primary contribution was
the bugs with the C series instalation were
worked out for the P-47N.

If you guys had a P-47M in the game, and the P-51
lovers had a P-51H that is all you would fly.

But we already have planes that never saw combat.
We even have planes that never flew.

So, why not! At least P-47M's saw combat!
P-51H's were operational before VJ day.

Comeon Oleg, let us have em.

Da...

LeadSpitter_
07-07-2004, 05:29 PM
The p47 is the most underperforming plane in the game. Its still possible to get kills with it but it is by far the hardest plane in the game. Becuase of its energy bleed and lack dive accelaration which the plane relied on. Yes it can out run planes at 9100m but even mid 4000-7000 its dogmeat. If they fix the .50s and accelaration in a dive and reduce the energy blled that in under 15 seconds puts you from 990+ to 460kmph with a trim recovery from a straight down dive, It still bleeds off the speed so fast even leaving the nose trimmed down slighty a 190, its absolutely impossible to out run in aircraft using the dive or severe energy management.

also firing 4 .50 cal at a time are much more accurate then shooting 8. It really makes me wonder how pf will be with dive accelaration considering that was the tactic the usn relied on and why the hellcats had a 10:1 ratio

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

VW-IceFire
07-07-2004, 09:31 PM
The Hellcat could also climb fairly well...so it probably won't have as much trouble as the 47 does right now. That said, the D-27 climbs fairly decently...if you keep the speed high then they do retain energy enough for you to regain near or at your original pre-dive attack. But diving away from an opponent...no that doesn't help much at all right now.

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Diablo310th
07-08-2004, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
The p47 is the most underperforming plane in the game. Its still possible to get kills with it but it is by far the hardest plane in the game. Becuase of its energy bleed and lack dive accelaration which the plane relied on. Yes it can out run planes at 9100m but even mid 4000-7000 its dogmeat. If they fix the .50s and accelaration in a dive and reduce the energy blled that in under 15 seconds puts you from 990+ to 460kmph with a trim recovery from a straight down dive, It still bleeds off the speed so fast even leaving the nose trimmed down slighty a 190, its absolutely impossible to out run in aircraft using the dive or severe energy management.

also firing 4 .50 cal at a time are much more accurate then shooting 8. It really makes me wonder how pf will be with dive accelaration considering that was the tactic the usn relied on and why the hellcats had a 10:1 ratio

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Leadspitter ..I have to agree with you. Other than teh dive speed teh zoom climb bothers me teh most. You lose most of your E diving down tehn try to zoom back up and it's all gone in under 30 secs. IceFire....I can't get back up to my original alt. by zooming unless it was a shallow high speed dive. And yeah there is practically no way to outrun a FW even in a dive. I think it is one of teh hardest planes to fly maybe that's why i like it. The one thing no one can complain about tho is the amount of damage it will take and get u home safe.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif

p1ngu666
07-08-2004, 04:07 PM
the D10 still performs the best (and it should)

M only had a extra 500hp, i mean geeze thats nothing really is it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

oleg also thought the p47N never had combat http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

i do feel the p47D is fundimentaly outclassed by most planes in 44-45.

yeah it can be effective, even in my hands http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif. but it dont have climb,speed,dive,turn,gun advantage over a 190 and a 109

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MEGILE
07-08-2004, 09:10 PM
Yeah p1ngu666 I agree, I love the Jug and fly it all the time on War clouds, but the -27 does feel outclassed by contempory fighters...

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Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 174

VW-IceFire
07-08-2004, 09:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the D10 still performs the best (and it should)

M only had a extra 500hp, i mean geeze thats nothing really is it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

oleg also thought the p47N never had combat http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

i do feel the p47D is fundimentaly outclassed by most planes in 44-45.

yeah it can be effective, even in my hands http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif. but it dont have climb,speed,dive,turn,gun advantage over a 190 and a 109

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&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah I was kinda shocked that Oleg thought the N had seen no combat. Although perhaps he was limiting his perspective to ETO operations in which case that would be true. The Pacific saw the N for a fair amount of 1945.

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WOLFMondo
07-09-2004, 12:50 AM
Why put 3 Ki84's and 2 different zero's in if thats the case?

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BigKahuna_GS
07-09-2004, 04:22 AM
S!
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Diablo--As for teh M model...Oleg said long ago that it would NOT be included in IL2. If i remember right he didn't think there was much difference in it from what we have nor was it flown much. I don't see us getting an M model till BoB reaches that point in teh war.
__________________________________________________ _________________________


Rgr that Diablo. I kind of thought the P47M might be a dead issue after a series of emails with Oleg over the last 6-8 months. There is more here, the russians didnt like the the P47--thats where the "not a fighter" eval came from. Heck the russians werent even that thrilled with the Mustang either.

But that was the nature of the Air War on the Eastern Front--there was no need for long range high altitude escort fighters. The russians didnt like the P47 and subsequently didnt bother to learn "how" to fight with the plane as US pilots had. So the russian classification of "not a fighter" has found its way in IL2/AEP. You will be hard pressed to convince Oleg otherwise.

The philosophy is this simple-"big heavy plane cannot compete with lighter plane". Well that philosphy was proved wrong by Allied pilots throughout WW2 on a daily basis. A book Oleg does respect is Shaws Fighter Combat Manuevering book--- In there is a fly off between Robert Johnson's P47 and a Spitfire.

By utilizing the P47 strengths of dive speed and zoom climb, the 47 bested the Spit. Youll notice this was not a turn fight (of course), but some people have a hard time understanding fighting in the vertical and how a big heavy plane (P47) could beat a small light and more manueverable plane (Spit).

Because of the russians poor impression of the P47, "not a fighter" I dont know if we will ever see correct dive speed acceleration or zoom climbs according to real life tests against a FW190 or what Johnson's P47 did that was documented in Shaws Fighter Combat book.

I am not claiming any attempt at bias here-I think that was their honest evaluation on the P47 (WW2 russain pilots) and so it was modeled that way in AEP. There just needs to be some informed education on how the P47 actually performed on the Western Front/PTO by allied pilots and test comparisons on captured german planes.

We may never see the best 2 versions of the P47- (P47M & N) because of this flawed philosophy.

__________________________________________________ _____________________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

OldMan____
07-09-2004, 06:35 AM
Think no one needs more of ANY planes.. we need corrected planes.. we need corrected P47D dive, corrected FW190 energy, slightly corrected .50, Mk151/20 and so on.

Anyway all these "corrections" may not be basedin a single document or book or whatever... look for all opinions and data from war.. of course American books paint P fighters well, germn books paint Bf fighters well and russian books Yaks .

I would hardly beleive 100% in information comming from a single pilot from the plane.. thats because they WERE OVERINFORMED of their planes capabilities.. that is important to keep morale high.

So lets be less drastic.. I dont want any more planes while so many seem strangely weird.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

p1ngu666
07-09-2004, 07:29 AM
the spitfire had several opportunities to fire on that jug tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

did all the M's have 6guns? u could do that on the D aswell, dunno how common it was tho
theres more difference between a M and say a 190a6-8, or bf109 g10-14

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MEGILE
07-09-2004, 01:10 PM
http://repo.jackmoves.com/albums/album65/bump.jpg

"Give me a wing Of P-47Ms, and I shall pwn joo some axis"

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Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 174

BigKahuna_GS
07-09-2004, 01:33 PM
S!

__________________________________________________ _____________________
p1ngu666
posted 09-07-04 06:29
the spitfire had several opportunities to fire on that jug tho
__________________________________________________ _____________________


Rgr that, as did the P47 have opportunities to shoot also. The purpose of the fight was to show the capabilities of the P47 to the Brits and to see who could lock on to the others tail. Johnson was a great fighter pilot and he demostrated the Jugs dive speed and zoom climb admirably.

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

VW-IceFire
07-09-2004, 01:53 PM
I remember the comments made in Arthur Bishops winged combat about his first look at a P-47 and in talking to an American fighter pilot. The be all and end all was that while the Jug didn't look much like a fighter it dived well and it was tough and thats why the American pilot he was talking to liked it.

The RAF thought that the Spitfire was the best possible high altitude fighter and for the way their pilots were trained and for what the RAF was doing...yes it was. The P-47 was a long range escort fighter...no doubt the Russians decided it wasn't a good fighter because of a bunch of reasons:
1) No cannons. They didn't like a strictly MG armament and thats obvious that even their 1940/41 aircraft are armed with the well designed ShVAK 20mm cannon.
2) Weight. It was a heavy plane.
3) Climb rate...probably something of a factor.
4) Expensive and more difficult to maintain likely.
5) Low altitude manuverability...almost nil on the P-47 in comparison to the alternatives.
6) Ease of use. The P-47 in USAAF hands was flown by well trained (if not seasoned) pilots. The Russians didn't always have the same training...until later in the war anyways. Things change.

They weren't really interested in strategic bombing and didn't need a fighter to do that. Obviously they would say "not a fighter" and indeed it wasn't really one for their purposes. But they didn't have nearly the same ideas on how to wage war as the USAAF did and frankly thats how each side determined how to use the aircraft.

I just hope that Oleg is, potentially through some complaints, realizing that there were alternative perspectives and that they aren't all war propoganda like far too much gets dismissed as.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Flying_Merkava
07-09-2004, 02:25 PM
Yes they all wanted "noob" planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BigKahuna_GS
07-09-2004, 08:39 PM
S!

__________________________________________________ ________________________
VW-IceFire--They weren't really interested in strategic bombing and didn't need a fighter to do that. Obviously they would say "not a fighter" and indeed it wasn't really one for their purposes. But they didn't have nearly the same ideas on how to wage war as the USAAF did and frankly thats how each side determined how to use the aircraft.

I just hope that Oleg is, potentially through some complaints, realizing that there were alternative perspectives and that they aren't all war propoganda like far too much gets dismissed as.
__________________________________________________ _________________________


Good comments Ice. What plane a country chooses to arm itself with depends on it's needs. For Britain, the Spitfire was that plane as it was not escorting Lancasters deep into Germany during night bombing missions. But as Britain started to do both daylight & night raids in the latter part of the war, RAF Mustangs got the call for escort duty. The Spitfire while a wonderful fighter had an achilles heel of a short combat radius.

Russia did not have a strategic bombing campain and while Stalin requested fighters with more range, engineers where relunctant to design greater combat radius fighters because the added weight would effect performace signifcantly. Like I previously mentioned, there was no need for a long range high altitude escort fighter(P47,P51,P38) on the Eastern Front.

Russia needed straightforward, easy to produce tactical
fighters/interceptors with their best performance envelopes at mid to low altitude. I told Oleg that the P39 on the Western Front was much like the P47 at the Eastern Front. The P39 was not acceptable as a high altitude escort fighter because of a short combat radius & poor high altitude peformance (no supercharger or turbo). While the P47 would be unacceptable as a turn fighter or interceptor in the Eastern Front. Because the P39 was a poor choice for escort duty did that make it a bad plane ?

However both planes excelled in the enviorment they were designed for.

I have encouraged Oleg to read how US pilots like Zemke, Johnson, Grabeski, Mauhrin etc, developed stratagies and tactics for deploying the P47 in combat on the Western Front were it performed very well utilizing it's strengths against the Luftwaffe during it's peak .

_

__________________________________________________ __________________
Flying_Merkava

posted 09-07-04 13:25
Yes they all wanted "noob" planes
__________________________________________________ ____________________

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

The P47 is nothing like a noob plane-- it is one of the most undermodeled planes in FB/AEP. Even if the AEP P47 had modeled its historic dive acceleration and coresponding zoom climb it would still be a thinking man's plane to fly.

__

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Flying_Merkava
07-09-2004, 09:00 PM
Dude you miss quoted me, I was talkin bout the rooshins and the P-47. They wanted a tnb plane.

Aaron_GT
07-10-2004, 05:14 PM
"By utilizing the P47 strengths of dive speed and zoom climb, the 47 bested the Spit. Youll notice this was not a turn fight (of course), but some people have a hard time understanding fighting in the vertical and how a big heavy plane (P47) could beat a small light and more manueverable plane (Spit). "

If it was a single trial with just two pilots then it might as much be showing the relative skills of the pilot as anything else. After all, many times online I get utterly humiliated in some allegedly 'uber' and overmodelled VVS plane by someone in some clapped out Axis stuff.

Aaron_GT
07-10-2004, 05:18 PM
"Good comments Ice. What plane a country chooses to arm itself with depends on it's needs. For Britain, the Spitfire was that plane as it was not escorting Lancasters deep into Germany during night bombing missions. But as Britain started to do both daylight & night raids in the latter part of the war, RAF Mustangs got the call for escort duty. The Spitfire while a wonderful fighter had an achilles heel of a short combat radius."

The Spitfire was used for the initial part of the escort for many of those missions. It's high rate of climb allowed it to be sent up as the Lancasters crossed the English coast and do the initial leg while the P51s climbed up more gently to meet with the bombers later, conserving fuel by a gentle climb. The Spitfire as a fighter really did suffer from short range, although the PR versions with additional fuselage tankage didn't do too badly, but then PR versions are always somewhat special birds.

Aaron_GT
07-10-2004, 05:20 PM
It would be interesting to see a Tempest V versus P47 match up. The Tempest V should be a bit better in the vertical, and about the same roll rate. Not sure about sustained climb, although that's less of an issue for combat. The P47 should dominate above 20,000 feet, the Tempest should dominate on the deck. In the middle - probably a very even match.

p1ngu666
07-10-2004, 07:04 PM
i think itll be close, dont have graphs and stuff to compair.

the p47 would be a **** interceptor, lack of climb, its weight etc.

and teh stang/spit are too diff planes for different jobs. RAF had both, and used them accordingly i belive.

mossies escorted lancs etc sort off, on a free leash ish. devistitating effects. think 1 german gruppen or watever of 100 pilots, over 3-4months half had been shot down, killed, or damaged by mossies.

forced germans to fly very low on RTB, in the dark thats not a good idea...

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

WOLFMondo
07-10-2004, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
It would be interesting to see a Tempest V versus P47 match up. The Tempest V should be a bit better in the vertical, and about the same roll rate. Not sure about sustained climb, although that's less of an issue for combat. The P47 should dominate above 20,000 feet, the Tempest should dominate on the deck. In the middle - probably a very even match.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be an odd match as the P47 is best very high and tempests strength is for very low combat. There two planes that would never really meet in combat unless the P47's were being used as ground attack in which case the Tempest has the upper hand with its superior top speed, climb and turn down low.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)
Home of WGNDedicated

BigKahuna_GS
07-11-2004, 01:37 AM
S!


__________________________________________________ _________________________
Flying_Merkava

posted 09-07-04 20:00
Dude you miss quoted me, I was talkin bout the rooshins and the P-47. They wanted a tnb plane.
__________________________________________________ _________________________



Sorry my bad--I just totally didnt understand the point you were trying to make. I agree, the P47 would have been the wrong plane for the Eastern Front just like the P39 was the wrong plane for the Western Front.



________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
07-11-2004, 02:13 AM
S!

__________________________________________________ __________________________
AaronGT--If it was a single trial with just two pilots then it might as much be showing the relative skills of the pilot as anything else. After all, many times online I get utterly humiliated in some allegedly 'uber' and overmodelled VVS plane by someone in some clapped out Axis stuff.
__________________________________________________ __________________________


There was more than one trial as the Brits thought the American pilots were flying coffins of to war in the P47. The US pilots were more than eager to show what their planes could do. There is also a fly off of the P38 vs the Spit with similar results.

The Luftwaffe pilots in FB/AEP have an excellent stable of very leathel birds to fly. The Tempest vs P47 would only be close with the M & N models around 20,000ft and that is only because of their speed. A safe fighting altitude for any Jug would be above 25,000ft against the Tempest. Anything below 20,000 would be Tempest territory, the Jug would have a hard time competing.


______________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Flying_Merkava
07-11-2004, 06:13 PM
Bump.
I learned from Lisa Simpson and the Democrats that if you keep *****ing you might get what you want. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

MEGILE
07-12-2004, 10:21 AM
b b b b b b b bump!

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51darkj.jpg

Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 174

Flying_Merkava
07-14-2004, 09:22 PM
Bumperstickers

BigKahuna_GS
07-15-2004, 02:38 AM
S!


Keep the dream alive !


___

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Flying_Merkava
07-18-2004, 10:49 AM
Whyyyyyy not a P-47M? hmmm really why not?

http://www.coon-n-crockett.org/jpfo.gif

Flying_Merkava
08-02-2004, 11:04 PM
meh?

----------------------------

This interview was on Nat'l Public Radio (npr) in mid January.
A female was interviewing Marine Corps General Reinwald
about a Boy Scout visit to his base.
She was told the Boy Scouts were to be taught about guns.
She asked, "But you are equiping them to be violent killers." The General replied,
"Well you're equiped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"
The radio went silent and the interview ended. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

BigKahuna_GS
08-02-2004, 11:18 PM
S!



Great story Merk !!!!
__________________________________________________ ______________________
This interview was on Nat'l Public Radio (npr) in mid January.
A female was interviewing Marine Corps General Reinwald
about a Boy Scout visit to his base.
She was told the Boy Scouts were to be taught about guns.
She asked, "But you are equiping them to be violent killers." The General replied,
"Well you're equiped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"
The radio went silent and the interview ended.
__________________________________________________ _________________________


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Diablo310th
08-05-2004, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flying_Merkava:
meh?

----------------------------

This interview was on Nat'l Public Radio (npr) in mid January.
A female was interviewing Marine Corps General Reinwald
about a Boy Scout visit to his base.
She was told the Boy Scouts were to be taught about guns.
She asked, "But you are equiping them to be violent killers." The General replied,
"Well you're equiped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"
The radio went silent and the interview ended. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/smileys-gun2.gif I love it. that's how you put a liberal peace lover in her place. yeeee hawwww

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif

lrrp22
08-05-2004, 12:25 PM
Unfortunately, it never happened...a debunked urban legend.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/smileys-gun2.gif I love it. that's how you put a liberal peace lover in her place. yeeee hawwww

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif [/QUOTE]

VF-10_Snacky
08-05-2004, 01:24 PM
Back on topic.

If the 109Z can find its way from fantasy to AEP then certainly the P47M can find a spot.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/belushi_1941_4.jpg

Hoarmurath
08-05-2004, 04:12 PM
The 109z found its way because someone made the 3D model... You make a P47M 3D model, and then you have a chance it will be included...

Quite simple...

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sigus.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3)
56Kers are strongly advised to NOT click on my signature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MEGILE
08-05-2004, 05:51 PM
How similar is the external P-47M to the P-47D27?

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51darkj.jpg

Hoarmurath
08-05-2004, 06:47 PM
It is very similar, but there are some very distinctive differences. Especially the dorsal fin, and the lack of the pilons for wings loadout.

There can be some differences in the cockpit as well, this i don't know.

Changing even so few features involve a good amount of work. You have to rework the 3Dmodel, then the 3 LOD, then redo the mapping of the texture, and redo the damage textures. It is less work than to do a brand new plane, but it is work nonetheless.

So, if you want the plane included, you should do this work yourself.

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sigus.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3)
56Kers are strongly advised to NOT click on my signature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WUAF_Co_Hero
08-06-2004, 05:17 AM
Either way you slice it, I think this should be heavily considered.

Bbbbbummmmmp!

Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day...

Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.

p1ngu666
08-06-2004, 01:04 PM
hmm
LOD 0 1, maybe 2 but probably not 3
u could probably do small mods to damage but not major
notmuch texture work todo really, maybe use a space on the skin for the fine

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Cajun76
08-06-2004, 03:41 PM
Just for reference, the production P-47M used the P-47D-30-RE as the basic airframe. The first production prototypes ordered by the USAAF were using P-47D-27-RE airframes. What made these airframes "M" models was the C series engines. Wing pylons were retrofitted to P-47Ms once the V-1 threat was gone. The dorsal fillets were retrofitted to many bubbletops. The first fillets from the factory were on some of the P-47D-30-REs and virtually all P-47D-40-RAs. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I'd like to see both M and N in the game. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

Cajun76
08-21-2004, 08:43 AM
bump http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good hunting,
(56th)*Cajun76
http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg (http://www.airwarfare.com/)&lt;Click for Mudmovers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson Hot Shots

MEGILE
08-21-2004, 10:32 AM
Oleg still hasn't given us the P-47M? Sacré Blue!!!

Oleg pwetty pweeze?

http://www.pudikatzcattery.com/cats/male%20seal%20lynx%20%20kitten.jpg

Have a kitty Oleg

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51darkj.jpg

Diablo310th
08-21-2004, 12:54 PM
bump bump and more bump.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif

VW-IceFire
08-21-2004, 01:08 PM
If you're going through all of that trouble...why not a D-30 too. HVAR's...mmmm

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

p1ngu666
08-21-2004, 07:37 PM
my dad offers uber cute doggy for p47m
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/CNXT0044.JPG

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

WOLFMondo
08-22-2004, 03:13 AM
How can oleg refuse such an offer!

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)
Home of WGNDedicated

LuftLuver
08-22-2004, 03:41 AM
He is a cute little critter.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
http://members.cox.net/kinetic/SigImages/tonystewartchevy.jpg
"All your road courses are belong to us."

MEGILE
08-24-2004, 06:45 PM
BUMP, the new Dora variant request thread is higher http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51darkj.jpg

"Notice how much larger the HL installed file is; this is because it contains powerful commands used on your machine via remote control" - Galen Thurber http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

LEXX_Luthor
08-24-2004, 07:11 PM
Less P~47s, more accurate FM http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

*bump* for Flyable C~47 though



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

p1ngu666
08-24-2004, 09:18 PM
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/SIMG3964-web.jpg

moments before being sent on a top secret attack luthors trouser legs mission....


soon after launch tho, we came across this,
http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/naptime.jpg
poor chap had obivously run out of fuel, no wonder he was so frisky he was light on fuel http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

LEXX_Luthor
08-24-2004, 09:41 PM
mmm looks more like good sleep caused by good eating. My leg is hurting now. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif


More accurate FMs, less P~47s http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

*bump* for Flyable B~47 though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LuftLuver
08-25-2004, 02:49 AM
More P47s, less Luthor_ette. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Also, take away some Fb109 variants, there are too many.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
http://members.cox.net/kinetic/SigImages/tonystewartchevy.jpg
"All your road courses are belong to us."

MEGILE
09-14-2004, 11:23 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif This thread had fell off the page.. back to the top with you! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51lightj.jpg

zunzun
09-14-2004, 02:59 PM
I really would love having an M to fight late luftwafe fighter

Please consider it

Eagle_361st
09-14-2004, 09:18 PM
That's the cutest rat I have ever seen. Now if you want to see a real cute dog look below. But I am not offering him for the M, I will offer my wife though. Please take her. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1130.jpg

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1079.jpg

"Two weeks, be sure" Oleg Maddox

ImpStarDuece
09-14-2004, 11:40 PM
MAn that thing is scary!!!


Worse even than the 'Killer Bunny of Doom' a la 'Monty Python's search for the Holy Grail'

Run away! Run away!

oh, and im all for a N or M Jug, but only if they model the P in the A engine troubles that stopped it being properly deployed in Europe until 3 months before VE day.

ImpStarDuece,

Flying Bullet Magnet... Catching Lead Since 2002

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

"...war is nothing but the continuation of policy with other means."
- Carl von Clauswitz (1827)

Diablo310th
09-16-2004, 11:33 AM
Unfortunately all the files to the N model were lost in a computer crash. I talked to the modeler last night. Seems like if we want teh N or M anytiem soon he is going to ahve to hurry and rebuild it or someone else pick up the ball and run with it. Ok all you modellers out there. Let's get moving pleaseeeeeeeeeeee. Oleg has said already months ago that he would not place an M model in the game. our only real chances are to get an N for PF.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif