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shok.
03-11-2004, 10:20 AM
I`m not sure if this has been said or not but;

It turns out that it isn`t. "Gotha" was only a subcontractor to "Horten".
This was confirmed by one of the surviving Horten brothers (He was alive when the book was written) in Davids Myhras book "The Horten Brothers and their all-wing aircraft" & "Monogram Close-Up 12 Horten 229".

shok.
03-11-2004, 10:20 AM
I`m not sure if this has been said or not but;

It turns out that it isn`t. "Gotha" was only a subcontractor to "Horten".
This was confirmed by one of the surviving Horten brothers (He was alive when the book was written) in Davids Myhras book "The Horten Brothers and their all-wing aircraft" & "Monogram Close-Up 12 Horten 229".

rgoodrich1978
03-11-2004, 10:25 AM
Interesting.

-PURGE-
its good for you

shok.
03-11-2004, 11:34 AM
Indeed, it should be corrected.

Oleg_Maddox
03-11-2004, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shok.:
I`m not sure if this has been said or not but;

It turns out that it isn`t. "Gotha" was only a subcontractor to "Horten".
This was confirmed by one of the surviving Horten brothers (He was alive when the book was written) in Davids Myhras book "The Horten Brothers and their all-wing aircraft" & "Monogram Close-Up 12 Horten 229".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In German documents its named Go.
Hortens had not any plants like Messerschmitt or others. So the High Command was decided who will make the plane and how to name it (by other words who will be in contract for production).
The situation looks close to FW and Kurt Tank really in naming of aircraft.

ArgonV
03-11-2004, 01:04 PM
Indeed Oleg is correct. Gotha was not a sub contractor at all! They were a mainstream production company. Production of the Horten wing was handed off to Gotha because the Horten's did not have enough resources to complete the project themselves and to go into full production...

"Go Fly A Kite!"
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shok.
03-11-2004, 01:13 PM
I showed you were to find my sources, now tell me where I can find yours http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Even though I feel honoured Oleg himself took the time to answer my post I still believe what I read in the book by David Myhra and the interview with one of the Horten brothers.

I`m currently looking deeper into this matter as the plane itself intrigues me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ArgonV
03-11-2004, 02:06 PM
Sure no problem. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Air Power - A Modern Illustrated Military History" 1979, by Exeter Books

"War Planes - Fighters I" 1960, by William Green and published by Macdonald & Co.

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Maj_Death
03-11-2004, 02:35 PM
FYI it is called Ho-229 on the box, Go-229 in game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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J30Vader
03-11-2004, 02:45 PM
Green's Warplanes of the Third Reich also list it as a Go229

shok.
03-11-2004, 03:49 PM
Well, it is a Horten aircraft, but Gotha did some or all of the manufactoring.
That`s how much I`ve gathered till now.
I`m determined to get something rocksolid on this!

ArgonV
03-11-2004, 11:30 PM
The first flying powered prototype was indeed called the Ho IXV2. The Horten brothers had most of it assembled before Gotha took over production. However when it crashed and a new one had to be built it was designated the Go 229V3. The first production model to be used for service evaluation was to be designated the Go 229A-0. It was to be a fighter bomber...

"Go Fly A Kite!"
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ArgonV
03-12-2004, 12:28 AM
On a further note to what I said above...

The wing we have in IL-2: FB Aces is designated the Go 229A-1. This is because this would be the main-stream production model after the service evaluation Go 229A-0 models. Any further types would be designated Go 229A-2, A-3, etc... These would come about either because of refinements, armament adjustments or even new engines.

The Go 229A-0 (Possibly, Ive read reports where they were going to be shipped with the Jumo 004B engine because there werent enough of the Jumo 004C engines yet) and A-1 would have had the Jumo 004C installed instead of the 004B we have now... (Oleg chose to model the Jumo 004B because he believes the 004C engine was not actually ready for service, which in fact it wasnt. But it WAS undergoing flight testing...) The 1st totally Gotha-built prototype, Go 229V3, did infact have working Jumo 004C engines installed and was to begin flight testing. However the plant was over-run by allied soldiers before it could... The Jumo 004C engine would have out-put even more thrust than the 004B (Roughly 400 lb more thrust compaired to the 004B) making the aircraft even more quicker to take off and in level flight.

Trust me guys I know my wing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I've studied her in every way since Lucas Arts Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe. Call me a wing experten. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Go Fly A Kite!"
-Jason R.
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[This message was edited by ArgonV on Thu March 11 2004 at 11:45 PM.]

ArgonV
03-12-2004, 12:37 AM
Also to follow up on other types of wings being developed before the wars end...

Gotha also had plans for a 2-seat night fighter variant! The prototypes were designated the Go 229V4 and Go 229V5. Both were nearing completion and in the final stages of construction before the wars end. There were also Go 229V6 and Go 229V7 prototypes being built. The V6 was to be a armament test bed and the V7 was going to be a 2-seat trainer. Anyone who has said the Gotha project was a failure doesnt know the whole story! In fact several jet-powered flights took place with the Ho IXV2. The last flight however (The flight testing the max speed) was the disaster flight, in which the engine had a flameout\fire according to reports...

Before the powered flight, there were many amazingly successful glider flights with the Ho IXV1... There were also many previous gliders built in the 1930's..

Here is a real cockpit pic I managed to find:

http://www.geocities.com/nedu537/go229/ho9v1_10.jpg

"Go Fly A Kite!"
-Jason R.
Head FS-WWI Project Leader
http://www.ww1sims.com/uploads/logo.jpg
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[This message was edited by ArgonV on Thu March 11 2004 at 11:48 PM.]

ArgonV
03-12-2004, 01:21 AM
Guys, I also STRONGLY suggest you take a look at this web page:

http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Horten_Nurflugels/horten_nurflugels.html

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Go Fly A Kite!"
-Jason R.
Head FS-WWI Project Leader
http://www.ww1sims.com/uploads/logo.jpg
FS-WWI Plane Pack Site (http://argonv.tripod.com/FSWWI_Page/readme.htm)

Dmitri9mm
03-12-2004, 09:32 AM
It's no different than the BF 109 (BF stands for Bavarian Flugzeugwerk i believe)
Sometimes it's being named Me 109 but it was only late in the war that it became custom to name planes after their constructor (ex: Me 262, Ta 152 asoasf)
the VVS went through the same thing allthough that was before 1941.

shok.
03-12-2004, 12:35 PM
I consider Myhra the definitive source on this, since he's spoken one on one with people who were there, plus he has seen the documentation. If you can get a hold of David Myhra's "the Horten Brothers and their All-Wing Aircraft", he devotes chapter 15 just to "The Horten Ho-8 229 or the Gotha 229?"

Here's a short quote:
"After the initial discovery of the turbojet-powered all-wing fighter at GWF (Gothaer Waggonfabrik Flugzeugbau),American soldiers and their superiors assumed that these fighter prototypes with the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM) designation of 8-229 was a secret Gotha design. Journalists, too, immediately began calling the 8-229 all-wing, turbojet-tighter the Gothaer Go 229. However, weeks after the discovery when Gothaer factory officials were brought in for interrogation, American military officials learned from the Gothaer people that the all-wing fighter was in fact a Horten brothers design. The fighter had been assigned a GL/C prefix of Ho 8-229 and was at Gotha merely for serial production (40 units were to be initially produced) because the Horten brothers did not have serial production ability. Subsequently, American military officials, began labeling the all-wing aircraft the Horten Ho 8-229."

It goes on and on after that, with direct quotes from the surviving Horten brother, various engineers, and documents. Gotha did have a jet powered flying wing - the Go P.60, but it was never built.


This plane _is_ ho-229.

ArgonV
03-12-2004, 12:46 PM
I have no doubt that the prototypes were Horton designed! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In fact all of the prototypes had a Ho prefix except for the few built at Gothaer and by their people. I even stated this above... But the fact remains that if the aircraft went into full blown production (Which it would have) it would of been in Gothaer factories, under Gothaer control and by the Gothaer workers. The labeling would then be Gotha 229 or Go 229 for short. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This is how German aircraft designation worked in the later years... The aircraft manufacturer, in this case Gotha/Gothaer would have the name shortened to just the first and second letter and that would be the prefix of the type...

"Go Fly A Kite!"
-Jason R.
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http://www.ww1sims.com/uploads/logo.jpg
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[This message was edited by ArgonV on Fri March 12 2004 at 09:49 PM.]

J30Vader
03-12-2004, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dmitri9mm:
It's no different than the BF 109 (BF stands for Bavarian Flugzeugwerk i believe)
Sometimes it's being named Me 109 but it was only late in the war that it became custom to name planes after their constructor (ex: Me 262, Ta 152 asoasf)
the VVS went through the same thing allthough that was before 1941.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought Willy bought the company, hence it became Messerschmidt AG.

Koohullin
03-12-2004, 04:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J30Vader:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dmitri9mm:
It's no different than the BF 109 (BF stands for Bavarian Flugzeugwerk i believe)
Sometimes it's being named Me 109 but it was only late in the war that it became custom to name planes after their constructor (ex: Me 262, Ta 152 asoasf)
the VVS went through the same thing allthough that was before 1941.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought Willy bought the company, hence it became Messerschmidt AG.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes in 1938, iirc. The Ta a/c were so named to honor the head designer, Kurt Tank.

The Horten was also to be built by Klemm.

3.JG51_Stecher
03-12-2004, 04:46 PM
As I understand it, the Ho/Go, Bf/Me, and Fw/Ta issues are all distinctly different. The RLM never adopted a policy of naming aircraft after its chief designer. The Horten Ho IX was the original aircraft design, but as they had no mass production capabilities, it was turned over to Gothaer Waggonfabrik AG, when the design was accepted and designated as model 229. Following standard policy, this aircraft would be the Go 229.
There is no such thing as an Me 109, even the later variants. The Bf 109, although designed by Willy Messerschmitt himself, was done so while he worked for Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG. This company's name was changed to Messerschmitt AG in 1938, and therefore, all models designed from that point on carried the Me prefix, regardless of their chief designer. The Me 262 was designed by a team headed by Waldemar Voigt in 1940, after the company name change.
The Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH designation change from Fw to Ta was in honor of Kurt Tank and his achievements, primarily with the 190 series. The first to receive this was the Ta 152, which he did design, as it was a continuation of the 190 line, but deemed different enough to garner a new model number. The winner of the Emergency Fighter Competition, the Ta 183, carried the Ta prefix, yet it's chief designer was not Tank, but Hans Multhopp.

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[This message was edited by Stecher_3.-JG51 on Fri March 12 2004 at 04:02 PM.]

Werg78
06-12-2004, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I've studied her in every way since Lucas Arts Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

was the version in swotl the fighter-bomber? iirc it had 4x30mm mk108 or mk103 and the ability to carry around 2000lb of bombs (in swotl)

always prefered the 103s over the pneumatic hammer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gibbage1
06-12-2004, 12:31 PM
Was it BF or ME 109?

In wartime, the aircraft was called by the factory that made it. BF-109's were manufactured by ME, so they called them ME-109's. Horten did not have his own factory, so Gotha was making them. Hence, Go-229.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shok.:
I`m not sure if this has been said or not but;

It turns out that it isn`t. "Gotha" was only a subcontractor to "Horten".
This was confirmed by one of the surviving Horten brothers (He was alive when the book was written) in Davids Myhras book "The Horten Brothers and their all-wing aircraft" & "Monogram Close-Up 12 Horten 229".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Most P-39's were sent to the Russians - so I guess that was an American secret weapon against our Russian allies."

Stan Wood, P-38 pilot who also flew the P-39.

Rebel_Yell_21
06-13-2004, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stecher_3.-JG51:
There is no such thing as an Me 109, even the later variants. The Bf 109, although designed by Willy Messerschmitt himself, was done so while he worked for Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG. This company's name was changed to Messerschmitt AG in 1938, and therefore, all models designed from that point on carried the Me prefix, regardless of their chief designer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This (http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/bf-me/bf-me.htm) fairly well researched article will beg to differ, that there is, in fact an Me-109.

http://www.303rdbga.com/art-ferris-fortress-S.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
06-13-2004, 05:01 PM
And Everybody is WRONG. The real classification is...

Bf~109s are the real 109s called Bertha, Clara, and Dora -- never seen in any flight sim.

Fb~109s are the ones in FB -- Emails, Females, etc....Hollywood planes all.


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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Obi_Kwiet
06-13-2004, 08:51 PM
Leave to you guys to start a flame war over this.. . http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif It would rock to see the early varients of the 109 in BoB though. We should mention this to Oleg.

Werg78
06-14-2004, 07:03 AM
ME = Messerschmidt (the plane was designed by Prof. Willy Messerschmidt)

BF = Bayrische Flugzeugwerke (a big aircraft manufacturer)

on topic: how about the "other" go229 version in FB? the one with 4x30mm mk108 or mk103 and hardpoints for bombs.

VOL_Hans
06-14-2004, 03:19 PM
The two designatons i've seen are:

Gotha Go-229

and Horten HO-IX

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

Philipscdrw
06-15-2004, 04:59 AM
Aircraft designed and built by Bayeritzch Flugzeugwerke are designated Bf, hence Bf-109C

Aircraft designed and built by Messerschmidt AG are designated Me, hence Me-109K

And, why in the name of all that is not made of plasterboard is it important that the Go-229 is called the Ho-229 or vice versa? Get a life!

PhilipsCDRw

"Nietzsche is dead." - God.

View Cpt. Eric Brown's review of FB here (http://www.aerosociety.com/raes/news/SimReview.pdf) and discuss it here. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=309109534&r=875101634#875101634)