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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 11:39 AM
It was mentioned a couple of times in the treads about the upcoming addon with among others the P51 and V1 buzz-bomb, that it will be possible to bring a V1 down by disturbing the airflow its wing with your own planes wing tip.

This begs the thought... will wing tip vortexes be modeled, or is this a weird special treatment of the V1?

Modeling wing tip vortexes would make the dogfights and bomber interceptions a bit different. I find the idea very compelling, although I feel a bit sceptical about such a major physics model change at such a stage.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 11:39 AM
It was mentioned a couple of times in the treads about the upcoming addon with among others the P51 and V1 buzz-bomb, that it will be possible to bring a V1 down by disturbing the airflow its wing with your own planes wing tip.

This begs the thought... will wing tip vortexes be modeled, or is this a weird special treatment of the V1?

Modeling wing tip vortexes would make the dogfights and bomber interceptions a bit different. I find the idea very compelling, although I feel a bit sceptical about such a major physics model change at such a stage.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 12:41 PM
Wingtip vortices are already modelled - stall your plane and see.
The V1's were flipped over with a wingtip, this toppled the V1's giro and made it crash.

Tedious unoriginal philosophical statement the pith of which is lost in repetition.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 12:47 PM
as we are at physics now.
does anyone else feels like when being in a turn, and someone makes a close flyby rear to you, the elevator loses effectivity and you have to repull the turn? is this a control bug of my pc or intended to be some physical effect?

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 12:48 PM
No, that's just a visual effect for the condensation caused by the static air pressure drop in the vortex.

I meant in the physical sense that it affects the plane flying through it (regardless of wether you see it or not.)

The V1s were tipped by mechanically flipping them, but that was both more difficult and more dangerous than just disturbing the airflow by flying with the wing tip just barely in front of the V1s wing. It had the same effect of tilting it a bit, causing the gyro to topple, but without hitting your planes wing tip.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 12:57 PM
Could always just shoot it down. Good target practice!

Tedious unoriginal philosophical statement the pith of which is lost in repetition.

http://allanhall.ic24.net/transSmallPunk2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 01:04 PM
flapbuster wrote:
- Wingtip vortices are already modelled - stall your
- plane and see.
- The V1's were flipped over with a wingtip, this
- toppled the V1's giro and made it crash.
-


No the wingtips never actually touched. The RAF adopted a tactic by placing their aircrafts wing 'in front' of the V1's. I am sure a number of wings did touch as there are accounts from a number of aircraft being lost (surviving pilot reports) due to loosing control.

Be sure I used to fly Jag's in 6 Squadron.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 01:37 PM
swingman wrote:
- No, that's just a visual effect for the condensation
- caused by the static air pressure drop in the
- vortex.
-
- I meant in the physical sense that it affects the
- plane flying through it (regardless of wether you
- see it or not.)
-
- The V1s were tipped by mechanically flipping them,
- but that was both more difficult and more dangerous
- than just disturbing the airflow by flying with the
- wing tip just barely in front of the V1s wing. It
- had the same effect of tilting it a bit, causing the
- gyro to topple, but without hitting your planes wing
- tip.
- _
-
- /Bjorn.

I read somewhere that flying behind another ac in fb would give turbulence.
Is this what u mean?

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 01:50 PM
you must have read different books HamishUK /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Tedious unoriginal philosophical statement the pith of which is lost in repetition.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 02:09 PM
I found these interesting comments about attacking V-1s:

"As the defenders became more experienced, they found that the best tactic was to approach the missile from above and astern in a long, shallow dive. They usually opened fire at about 300 yards but were careful not to close to less than 150 yards because of the turbulence of the pulse jet's exhaust and the lethal radius of the fireball that would be produced by detonation of the V-1's large warhead. Buzz bombs were reportedly several times more difficult to kill than piloted aircraft at the same range, in part because they were smaller and had fewer critical components, but also because the V-1's fuselage was a simple metal cylinder tapered to a point at both ends. This shape tended to deflect projectiles fired from a beam-end aspect.

At first, pilots averaged about 500 rounds per kill; this dropped to 150 later in the summer. Much more famous, of course, was the tactic of simply flying alongside and tipping the vehicle with a wingtip. This tumbled the V-1's gyroscopic autopilot, and the missile went out of control.

By every analysis, aircraft interception became very effective. Even though they were sometimes grounded by bad weather, the fighters accounted for 1,846 of the 3,957 missiles destroyed - almost 47 percent. Many pilots achieved multiple kills, with RAF Squadron Leader Joseph Berry leading the list at 61 and one-third, including seven in one day on two occasions. Sadly, Berry was mistakenly killed by Allied antiaircraft fire on 1 October 1944."



Also found this:



Fighters assigned to combat the flying bombs underwent modifications to squeeze every last bit of power from their engines to help them chase the speedy flying bombs. All armor and excess weight were removed. The leading edges of wings and stabilizers were polished to a high gloss. The engines themselves received particular care, with meticulous tuning and overhauling at frequent intervals. After all the cutting and streamlining, the flying bomb interceptors consisted of little more than machine guns and cannons, a fuel tank, and a finely tuned engine. Because the buzz bombs traveled at more than 400 miles per hour, the piston-engine fighters needed all the speed they could muster.

Pilots of the modified Spitfires and Tempests could now close with the flying bombs more easily. Some could even fly right alongside the bombs, close enough to read the German writing on the fuselages. A few enterprising pilots discovered that they could slide a wing under the wingtip of the "flying blowlamp" and lift it, tipping the flying bomb out of control. That quickly became a standard method of destroying the bombs.

"Tipping the doodlebugs" nearly always worked. The flying bombs had a very delicate gyro mechanism; any sudden, violent movement-such as wing-lifting-would cause it to malfunction. With the gyroscope out of order, the machine would spiral earthward and crash. From the air, the concentric shock wave of the crashed bomb was said to look like "a single ripple on a lake."

But this maneuver was not without its risks. The flying bomb was made of rolled sheet steel, while the RAF fighters had a skin of light aluminum alloy. Many a Spitfire and Tempest hobbled back to base with one of its highly polished wings bent and twisted out of shape from the "wing wrestling."

Bringing down a buzz bomb with gunfire also presented problems for Allied pilots. The most frequent method of attack was the deflection shot, approaching from the side and opening fire when the bomb crossed the pilot's line of sight. "It's like firing at a large flame with wings sprouting out of it," the pilot of a Tempest V said. "Your cannon scores hits, and suddenly there is a big red flash."
The top "doodlebug ace" was Squadron Leader Joseph Berry, who flew Tempest Vs with the Fighter Interception Unit, and then No. 501 Squadron. Berry's final score was 591/2 V-1s, including a one-night record of seven on July 23. During a low-level chase four days later, he closed to 100 feet before downing the doodlebug, and his plane was damaged in the ensuing explosion. To his chagrin, he had to share the credit with a de Havilland Mosquito that had fired at the V-1 from 1,000 yards and, in the opinion of his unit, had "missed hopelessly"

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 02:15 PM
I hope there are ID tags on the V1's as they're headed towards their destination. Its going to be very tempting, and fun to try and intercept them.

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 02:24 PM
Great stuff!


Tedious unoriginal philosophical statement the pith of which is lost in repetition.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 03:46 PM
flapbuster wrote:
- you must have read different books HamishUK /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- Tedious unoriginal philosophical statement the pith
- of which is lost in repetition.
-
http://allanhall.ic24.net/SmallPunk4.jpg
-

I flew Jaguars with 6 Squadron. So I have first hand stories and records from actual pilots who flew against the V1's.

The tactic of actually touching the wing was avoided if possible. As I previously indicated the RAF used airflow off the pilots wing to disrupt the flight stability of the V1. There were a few aircraft that were damaged due to contact but as also indicated the pilots were ordered not to touch the bombs with their aircrafts wing.





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Message Edited on 10/06/03â 03:55PM by HamishUK

Message Edited on 10/30/0305:17PM by Tully__

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 05:01 PM
If we can tip over V1s,I wonder if we can now come in contact with other planes without instantly blowing up or receiving severe damage(as long as the contact is reasonable,of course). It'd be cool if we could.....

47|FC
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Message Edited on 10/06/0311:03AM by necrobaron

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 05:09 PM
All the more reason for some Tempest V's and some Spit XIV's to chase these things with http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 05:29 PM
"If we can tip over V1s,I wonder if we can now come in contact with other planes without instantly blowing up or receiving severe damage(as long as the contact is reasonable,of course). It'd be cool if we could....."

On one occasion I have 'scraped' a bomber with my fighter without a problem. I forget the specific a/c involved, it was some time ago.

I've also scraped water and land and continued on.

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 05:48 PM
Hamish,

I have no knowledge of the history and particulars involved here but I've lived long enough to presume some judgment of character. For me, its an honor to be a participant and fellow member with you. Your credentials are not very common.

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 07:25 PM
I hope the pressure contacts the Germans later installed on V1 wings are also modeled... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If your CO instructed you not to actually hit the V1s, knowing some German installed those contact which will blow up the whole thing won't make you do it for sure...

Jeroen

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 04:29 AM
http://www.pegase-airshow.com/photom/0203/000712.jpg
</img.>

S!

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</img>.
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but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 08:14 AM
The question remains unanswered, even unattempted to be answered, so I ask it again.

*IF* V1s will be possible to tip over by disturbing the airflow, does that mean wing tip vortexes are modeled (from an aviation physics point of view.)

And, just to balance points of view here...

*IF* V1s will be possible to tip over by nudging the wing, will bending be part of the damage model, so that a contact can cause a serious alteration of your aircrafts behaviour instead of nothing/lost-part/blow-up?
_
/Bjorn.




Message Edited on 10/30/0305:33PM by Tully__

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 12:53 PM
I think the question is too early to tell yet? What was the release date 2005? Would be very interesting to see I agree!

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 01:15 PM
THE STORY......

On june 20. 1944, 322 moved on to West Malling to fight the V-1 bombs with their new Spitfire XIV's. During the period from june 18th to august 11. 322 had some success in operation Crossbow downing 110 1/2 V-1's in 1932 flying hours and 1761 sorties. On june 18., due to lack of ammo, a Flying Officer tries to tip a V-1 with his wingtip, to make it crash. He fails, but a few days later Flying Officer F.J.H. van Eijk tries the same and succeeds. This trick will become widely accepted until the Germans built pressure switches on the V-1 to detect the wing tipping. on juli 12. J.A. Maier is killed by an exploding V-1. Fighting V-1's still was a dangerous task: sometimes the pilots opened fire while flying too close to the bomb. This resulted in damaged or black Spitfires. Often the pilot had to open his canopy because he couldn't see a thing through his windscreen after the explosion. One pilot got killed when an American P-51 Mustang shot the V-1 he was trying to down with the well known wing tip. The V-1 exploded, taking the Spitfire into it's destruction. R.F. Burgwal became the top scorer with 19 kills, unfortunately he was missing on august 12. after escorting a raid on Orléans. On juli 30. N. van Beers scores the 100th V-1, it is his own 11th kill. Plesman scored 11 Kills.


http://212.203.14.80/squad/images/spitfire-v1history.jpg


FROM THE ORB RECORDS>>>>>>>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 01:39 PM
HamishUK wrote:
- I think the question is too early to tell yet? What
- was the release date 2005? Would be very interesting
- to see I agree!

Hmmm, was it? I must have misunderstood something then. I definitely got the impression that you could tip V1s in the soon to come add-on for FB. Not sure if it was the free one or the payware add-on, though.

_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 01:21 AM
trughoy wrote:
- THE STORY......
-
- On june 20. 1944, 322 moved on to West Malling to
- fight the V-1 bombs with their new Spitfire XIV's.
- During the period from june 18th to august 11. 322
- had some success in operation Crossbow downing 110
- 1/2 V-1's in 1932 flying hours and 1761 sorties. On
- june 18., due to lack of ammo, a Flying Officer
- tries to tip a V-1 with his wingtip, to make it
- crash. He fails, but a few days later Flying Officer
- F.J.H. van Eijk tries the same and succeeds. This
- trick will become widely accepted until the Germans
- built pressure switches on the V-1 to detect the
- wing tipping. on juli 12. J.A. Maier is killed by an
- exploding V-1. Fighting V-1's still was a dangerous
- task: sometimes the pilots opened fire while flying
- too close to the bomb. This resulted in damaged or
- black Spitfires. Often the pilot had to open his
- canopy because he couldn't see a thing through his
- windscreen after the explosion. One pilot got killed
- when an American P-51 Mustang shot the V-1 he was
- trying to down with the well known wing tip. The V-1
- exploded, taking the Spitfire into it's destruction.
- R.F. Burgwal became the top scorer with 19 kills,
- unfortunately he was missing on august 12. after
- escorting a raid on Orléans. On juli 30. N. van
- Beers scores the 100th V-1, it is his own 11th kill.
- Plesman scored 11 Kills.
-
-
<img
- src="http://212.203.14.80/squad/images/spitfire-v1
- history.jpg">
-
-
- FROM THE ORB RECORDS>>>>>>>
-
-
As such was the ORBAT of the RAF NOT to touch the wings with their own. If you have ever flown an aircraft and tried to get two planes (running side by side) moving at a few hundred miles an hour to touch then you will find it is damn hard. The RAF did not condone physical contact with the V1. Pilots naturally did so at their own risk.

The RAF ORBAT of '44 clearly states under no circumstances were planes to actually touch the V1 bomb. Stories and legends will persist but talk to the 'old boys' for the 'real' stories.





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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 03:15 AM
A quote reputed to be direct from the Operational logs of 616Sqn, the first operational Meteor unit.

"F/O Dean took off from Manston at 1545 to patrol inland area under Kingsley II (Biggin Hill) Control. At 1616 hours a Diver was sighted at 1000 ft near Tonbridge on course of 330â?, at speed of 365 IAS. Dean dived down from 4500 ft at speed of 450 mph, and attacked from dead astern; his 4 x 20mm cannons failed to fire owing to a technical trouble now being investigated, so flying level alongside the bomb, Dean maneuvered his wing tip a few inches under the wing of the flying bomb and by pulling upwards sharply he sent the bomb diving to earth four miles South of Tonbridge."

Other sources I have record that Dean was reprimanded at the time for the damaged wingtip of his rare and valuable jet.

And on the damage suffered by V1-hunters, here is a snippet from Flt Lt (ret) Pride, a military historian, talking about Monkmoor Aerodrome:

"Mr Pride said: "It was not used as an air-field in the Second World War, but as 34 MU (Maintenance Unit).

"They used to call it one of the 'smash and grab' places. If there were any aircraft crashes they went to collect the bits to see if they could reuse them.

"During the V1 campaign in the south east of England Spitfires, Mustangs and Tempests used to go on 'Diver' patrols (to intercept and destroy the incoming flying bombs). The aircraft would intercept V1s and tip them over with their wings, and were consequently suffering a lot of dam-age. One of the jobs at Monkmoor was to mend wingtips. They used to travel from 34MU to the south east."

No offence to anyone but contemporaneous accounts like this are quite compelling.

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Message Edited on 10/08/0312:34PM by hobnail

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 08:00 AM
quote:The RAF ORBAT of '44 clearly states under no circumstances were planes to actually touch the V1 bomb. Stories and legends will persist but talk to the 'old boys' for the 'real' stories.
:quote

Ok officially they where not allowed to do so and stories and legends...... NOT SO!!!!!


But I have access to the complete ORB 540 and 541 of the 322 (Dutch) Squadron which clearly states that the above fact took place. There is no question about that and I have been talking to some of the wwII vets who actually did tip the DIVERS as they were called bij the RAF.

And if you doubt this info contact someone from 322 Historical flight because they are the official group to represent the official 322(Dutch) Squadron based at LWD AFB in the Netherlands on the period of 1943 - 1945.
www.322squadron.com (http://www.322squadron.com)
They have all the info and the contacts.


INFO ON V1... Complete: http://www.322squadron.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=307


Message Edited on 10/08/0307:41AM by trughoy

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 08:47 AM
I was at the Flight sim show last year (missed this years show) but I do remember Oleg and Ianboys saying that its possible to have Vortex from wings when flying through cloud or smoke but the CPU power was not faster enough to handle it, so maybe in a year or so, it could be modelled in BOB?

Hope this answers your quetsion, if not sorry!

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 12:26 PM
trughoy wrote:
- quote:The RAF ORBAT of '44 clearly states under no
- circumstances were planes to actually touch the V1
- bomb. Stories and legends will persist but talk to
- the 'old boys' for the 'real' stories.
- :quote
-
- Ok officially they where not allowed to do so and
- stories and legends...... NOT SO!!!!!
-
-
- But I have access to the complete ORB 540 and 541 of
- the 322 (Dutch) Squadron which clearly states that
- the above fact took place. There is no question
- about that and I have been talking to some of the
- wwII vets who actually did tip the DIVERS as they
- were called bij the RAF.
-
- And if you doubt this info contact someone from 322
- Historical flight because they are the official
- group to represent the official 322(Dutch) Squadron
- based at LWD AFB in the Netherlands on the period of
- 1943 - 1945.
- www.322squadron.com (http://www.322squadron.com)
- They have all the info and the contacts.
-
-

Sir you have not read my post correctly at all.

I did not say it did not take place. It was NOT the ORBAT and modus operandi for the RAF to do this. A large handful of individuals are bound to do different but the majority did not. Flight records held at 354 OCU and first field maintanence logged (or attempted to as best they could) the V1 attacks. Aircraft were damaged from explosive debris, wingtip damage etc from attacks on the V1's. The majority of pilots recorded who took out V1's used their wing to disrupt airflow.

My quote that it was stories and legends is the fact that everyone believes this is how the majority of V1 bombs were taken out. This of course is incorrect and no small amount of featurette postings will change this. V1 tipping is the stuff of legends and will continue to be. However the risk to aircraft and pilot was very high indeed.

I don't doubt this info as I used to be in and teach in the RAF so please don't out quote me with information as this is simply a repeat post and information that is from one area. Thank you.



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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 12:44 PM
Hamish, some people take things so literal.'Tip with my wingtip' does not necessarily mean contact but as you described. Of course there were mis-calculations at 350-400mph and collisions did occur when the pilot tried to place his wingtip in position to 'tip' the V-1. There was no time to play around trying to get into the perfect position, so get close, make a stab, and hopefully disturb the airflow enough to cause the V-1 to crash (in open ground).

To sum up, most of the damaged wingtips were due to accidental collision.


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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 12:45 PM
Not to sound argumentative but if disrupting the airflow was the real mechanism at work how did our intrepid Meteor pilot get his wing "a few inches under" the V1's without causing it to depart flight until he flipped it physically?


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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 02:02 PM
Sir,

I stand corrected on my misapprehension of your post, if so!!.

All I gave was some information on the History of the DIVER tipping, nothing more nothing less.

SALUTAIONS!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 02:10 PM
hobnail wrote:
- Not to sound argumentative but if disrupting the
- airflow was the real mechanism at work how did our
- intrepid Meteor pilot get his wing "a few inches
- under" the V1's without causing it to depart flight
- until he flipped it physically?

Disturbance right above is very minor. Disturbance behind is greater. The idea, or so I've read, was to slip the wing just below and in front.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 08:45 PM
Salute,

I would like to mingle in his little conversation you guy's have about the wingtipping thing with the following.

The text Trughoy posted is from an original ORB used bu the Royal Airforce, and is a 100% genuine.

Here again the ORB text.

On june 20. 1944, 322 moved on to West Malling to fight the V-1 bombs with their new Spitfire XIV's. During the period from june 18th to august 11. 322 had some success in operation Crossbow downing 110 1/2 V-1's in 1932 flying hours and 1761 sorties. On june 18., due to lack of ammo, a Flying Officer tries to tip a V-1 with his wingtip, to make it crash. He fails, but a few days later Flying Officer F.J.H. van Eijk tries the same and succeeds. This trick will become widely accepted until the Germans built pressure switches on the V-1 to detect the wing tipping. on juli 12. J.A. Maier is killed by an exploding V-1. Fighting V-1's still was a dangerous task: sometimes the pilots opened fire while flying too close to the bomb. This resulted in damaged or black Spitfires. Often the pilot had to open his canopy because he couldn't see a thing through his windscreen after the explosion. One pilot got killed when an American P-51 Mustang shot the V-1 he was trying to down with the well known wing tip. The V-1 exploded, taking the Spitfire into it's destruction. R.F. Burgwal became the top scorer with 19 kills, unfortunately he was missing on august 12. after escorting a raid on Orléans. On juli 30. N. van Beers scores the 100th V-1, it is his own 11th kill. Plesman scored 11 Kills.

We from the 322squadron Research and Recovery group 1943-1949 and part of the Royal DUTCH Airforce 322Squadron have these ORB.s in our archives. So again the are genuine. Also we have documents and interviews (from wich some are taken by our members) with WW2 322Sqn members to confirm that in the early days of the Diver patrols pilots used their wingtips to tip over a buzzbomb. After the Germans discovered how those Divers were downed they placed contacts on the divers wings so that they couldn't be tipped over again.
Later on the Germans placed small contact switches that would ignite the bomb when they were tipped by the wing.

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 09:48 PM
On pg 628 of "Spitfire: The History" there is a drawing of a device that was to spear the V-1 and then with the V-1 attached, the Spit would do a 180 turn and then release the V-1 to send it back from whense it came came from.


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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 10:22 PM
That pic I found in Alfred Price "Spirfire at War". There is written both methods were used - disturbing to airflow by placing the a/c wing in front of the leading edge of the V1-wing (no touching) AND the direct touch from from below so the V1 rolled over to the oppsite side -away from the a/c.

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Message Edited on 10/08/0310:23PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 09:38 AM
Bump!

Trust crusty old <a href=http://user.tninet.se/~qsq272p/beamont.zip>Wing Commander Roland Beamont</a> as he describes how he tipped over V1s with his Tempest wingtip, not in front, not behind, but with a definate and deliberate movement.

PS check out his hand movements.

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XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 10:33 AM
Yes, doodlebugs could be and often were shot down, but they made a small target and the pursuing aircraft needed to get close. If the V1 blew up at such short range, the result could be disastrous!

Tully__
10-30-2003, 08:55 AM
I've cleaned out a few posts. The guilty parties should consider themselves on notice. Bans will be applied if necessary.

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Salut
Tully