PDA

View Full Version : Controller VS Mouse



Rainbowsix876
12-06-2016, 09:26 AM
My intention is not to fight but rather interested in comparing the 2 options.
This game looks really nice and especially a promising esport game. Which gives me a couple of questions.
Rocket league, Fifa are games that just force even PC players to invest in a controller and I'd like to know how this game works out by playing it with a mouse vs controller.

Anyone who got experience in vice versa, pleaes share.

Thanks

DrHazyUK
12-06-2016, 10:01 AM
For me FH makes the most sense (and felt more natural) with a controller (as i think they designed it to be) - i tried k+m during the test but it didn't gel for me (it did for others though). Perhaps more perseverance on my part would have been in order, as the bulk of my gaming over recent years has been using a controller.

now, there are people on the forums who got on perfectly well with k+m (i seem to recall seeing such comments anyway), but the controller felt to me like the better option. When i moved my mouse to put my character in a defence stance, I found that i was likely to come out of that stance too easily (again, likely to just be me, or that i needed to configure sensitivity, etc), whereas the controller was just a case of pushing the stick in a direction and keeping it there. More of a "pick up and play" element going on with controller vs k+m (which during a time limited test phase was appealing).

Fatal-Feit
12-06-2016, 10:35 AM
Both options are great and neither are objectively better.

Rainbowsix876
12-06-2016, 12:05 PM
Very well. Sounds from your side DR that it was more of a preference rather than an exclusion of K+M.
Glad to hear that as I don't mind using the contoller in some games, but it also gives me a confirmation that this game was made for PC audience as well.
We can see these days that many games are created first for the console and are easily converted to PC. Which sometimes limit the configurations and graphics.

Thanks for the answers

Fatal-Feit
12-06-2016, 12:14 PM
A lot of excellent players such as Draxel uses m&k, so believe me when I say you aren't at any disadvantages if you go with that. The only thing controllers got are its comfort, but that's pretty subjective. If anything, m&k has quite a bit of potential since the developers allowed players to map stances to keys and such in the alpha, so you may see some benefits to having an MMO mouse or something like that.

Rainbowsix876
12-06-2016, 01:34 PM
Thans Fatal for that information.

PhYcE-
12-06-2016, 03:49 PM
I'll be on PS4 so I'll be using a controller either way, but if I were playing on PC it would come down to what configuration Esports would allow. If I get used to a K+M but in a tournament would be forced to use a controller, I'd ditch the K+M and only use a controller so it wasn't an adjustment for me in a tournament.

Dez_troi_aR
12-06-2016, 04:02 PM
Do we have any information concerning cross-platform ?
Never thought about that.

Rainbowsix876
12-06-2016, 04:56 PM
Do we have any information concerning cross-platform ?
Never thought about that.

cross-platforms in general meaning more work for the developer (FOR FREE) and as the way I know Ubisoft, the answerwill be NO.
I never question their capability of designing games. Most of their games looks really nice. It's their innovation, greed of money and bad multiplayer support which always concern me.
Again, if we haven't heard anything about cross-platform yet, it will most likely be a no

MisterWillow
12-07-2016, 08:15 AM
A lot of excellent players such as Draxel uses m&k, so believe me when I say you aren't at any disadvantages if you go with that. The only thing controllers got are its comfort, but that's pretty subjective. If anything, m&k has quite a bit of potential since the developers allowed players to map stances to keys and such in the alpha, so you may see some benefits to having an MMO mouse or something like that.

This.

I couldn't get the M&K controls to work for me (as in, I found them unintuitive and clunky), but there were plenty of people in the test who were using them effectively, and the fact that you have button mapping on M&K (which really should be added to controllers), gives you a slight edge, since you don't have to worry about moving your thumb off a stick or anything for feints or parries (among other benefits).

Patient_Fodder
12-07-2016, 01:23 PM
A lot of excellent players such as Draxel uses m&k, so believe me when I say you aren't at any disadvantages if you go with that. The only thing controllers got are its comfort, but that's pretty subjective. If anything, m&k has quite a bit of potential since the developers allowed players to map stances to keys and such in the alpha, so you may see some benefits to having an MMO mouse or something like that.

The one thing you are forgetting though is that with a controller you only need 2 thumbs for all directional options. Try that with m/kb.
So yes, some are very good with it, but you cannot state that on average, there is no disadvantage to m/kb.

Fatal-Feit
12-07-2016, 02:37 PM
The one thing you are forgetting though is that with a controller you only need 2 thumbs for all directional options. Try that with m/kb.
So yes, some are very good with it, but you cannot state that on average, there is no disadvantage to m/kb.

I didn't forget anything. There are pros and cons to both choices, but neither are at a disadvantage; it's all just preferences. As an example, I mentioned earlier you can't manually map stances to specific buttons on a controller. And while WASD requires 3 fingers, m&k setup allows players access more buttons at once without sacrificing movement/camera unlike a standard controller.

Patient_Fodder
12-07-2016, 03:47 PM
I didn't forget anything. There are pros and cons to both choices, but neither are at a disadvantage; it's all just preferences. As an example, I mentioned earlier you can't manually map stances to specific buttons on a controller. And while WASD requires 3 fingers, m&k setup allows players access more buttons at once without sacrificing movement/camera unlike a standard controller.

I think we will agree to disagree soon! : o)

Yes one can use more buttons with more fingers, on one hand. on the other you need 2 fingers ( I need 3, I prefer a heavy mouse) for mouse control at least. Add to that the neurological difference in having to guide not 4 but 8 fingers, the latter having no leniancy to pressing slightly off. Technologically you may be right, but as not every player, including myself, is not in the top echelon, physically a m/kb user is at a disadvantage.

Fatal-Feit
12-08-2016, 01:26 AM
I think we will agree to disagree soon! : o)

Yes one can use more buttons with more fingers, on one hand. on the other you need 2 fingers ( I need 3, I prefer a heavy mouse) for mouse control at least. Add to that the neurological difference in having to guide not 4 but 8 fingers, the latter having no leniancy to pressing slightly off. Technologically you may be right, but as not every player, including myself, is not in the top echelon, physically a m/kb user is at a disadvantage.

Tbh, I don't understand what you're arguing. You're using very specific hypothetical examples when your last argument was suppose to be about the average player. I agree, m&k doesn't work for everyone, but the same thing can apply for controllers. For example, a good portion of gamers (like myself) can't play high precision shooters with analogs, which are scientifically proven to be significantly worse at aiming--which is also why aim assist exists. And everyone, especially gamers of all people, have been taught to use a m&k, so I kind of doubt the average player gaming with one will be too alienated by all the buttons. :p

If we're going to debate this, let's assume the average player is someone normal that has a standard Xbox 360 or Xbox One controller and a good tactile/mechanical keyboard and 3 button mouse. They hold the controller with a standard grip (index for both bumpers and triggers and thumbs for analogs) and the normal index and middle fingers for the mouse grip.

I'm going to presume you know the alpha setup for both of them so I'm going to get straight to listing all of the differences I can remember between the two, starting with the controllers.

- Controllers has 0~100% movement with the left analog stick, which is more precise than WASD.

- Controllers has vibrations feedback (neither a pro or con, but it's there).

- Controllers has more portability.

- M&k has rebinds and allows stances to be switched to keys/buttons.

- M&k allows players to perform actions like feint and grab without sacrificing movement and camera controls.

- M&k allows players to access specific taunts and quick chat commands with a single key.

- Menus are easier and quicker to navigate with a mouse; especially since you don't have to hold a button to access specific menus.

- Using Ctrl for Guard Mode and right-click for heavy attack is more effective than triggers due to less input delay. (the average gamer doesn't have a trigger lock mod on their controllers).

- M&k allows communication through typing or push to talk.

The more I think about it, m&k actually has more advantages than anything, but at the end of the day, it's all about the players and their preferences.

Patient_Fodder
12-08-2016, 10:13 AM
I like a good debate, and yes, I have been in the tests. I also am a player who dislikes controllers, just because I tend to demolish them quite easily.
The minimum standard of equipment is present. : o)

Fist off, I was not talking hypothetically, it is a fact that if you have to steer multiple part of a hand this will require more brain power to compute.
In simple terms, if I wanted to go back diagonally in the game, I need 2 keys, which I cannot press with 1 finger, where instead of that you can do it with 1 thumb, which requires less neurological impulses (not every gamer is between 5-35 years old). It is not about the familiarity, it is just about humans and their their capabilities. All the items you list are technical, but true nevertheless. Last, you are assuming people use the standard kb setup in your comparison, I remap all buttons in all games to the keypad, which leaves me with a limited set of keys.

Again I just think we approach this from different angles: you have a technical perspective with an average gamer in mind, I say that there is no such thing as an average gamer looking at individual capabilities and I am approaching this from a bio/neurological limitation side.

- Controllers has 0~100% movement with the left analog stick, which is more precise than WASD.
- True, and needs less fingers

- Controllers has vibrations feedback (neither a pro or con, but it's there).
- Agreed

- Controllers has more portability.
- Agreed, but of no special benefit as with vibrations

- M&k has rebinds and allows stances to be switched to keys/buttons.
- True, with only WASD as an option, I would not buy the game, however that means either using a directional usage finger or give up the mouse control temporarily?

- M&k allows players to perform actions like feint and grab without sacrificing movement and camera controls.
- I think I cannot agree on this, as camera angels change anyway, I have to rectify it's position, mainly when close to objects. Feints and grabs, I did not
even use them, as it required moving my fingers from more important buttons, like direction, guard, run or starting a special. All require moving my
fingers from vital controls. Maybe I
misunderstand your point here.

- M&k allows players to access specific taunts and quick chat commands with a single key.
- Only with a standard setup, which I do not use, so I have to disagree (a standard kb setup does not make it the norm for individuals, as you said it is
about preferences)

- Menus are easier and quicker to navigate with a mouse; especially since you don't have to hold a button to access specific menus.
- Could you elaborate on this? I did not have any menu on my mouse settings, I found guard, block, light and heavy attack far more important.

- Using Ctrl for Guard Mode and right-click for heavy attack is more effective than triggers due to less input delay. (the average gamer doesn't have a trigger lock mod on their controllers).
- Different setup from what I used (I used a mouse button), but I cannot disagree with you on this

- M&k allows communication through typing or push to talk.
- This has nothing to do with the game mechanics for me, I use TS and voice activation. Non item for me.

To conclude, all your points are technical, which I never debated or disagreed with.

I am saying that, as a human, it is harder to give multiple precise inputs. Not everybody can execute 5 actions at the same time coherently, the majority cannot, that is not a hypothesis, that is a fact. Very few people are truly ambidextrous for a reason, only a very low percentage of the people is capable of it.

Fatal-Feit
12-08-2016, 05:22 PM
Fist off, I was not talking hypothetically, it is a fact that if you have to steer multiple part of a hand this will require more brain power to compute. In simple terms, if I wanted to go back diagonally in the game, I need 2 keys, which I cannot press with 1 finger, where instead of that you can do it with 1 thumb, which requires less neurological impulses (not every gamer is between 5-35 years old). It is not about the familiarity, it is just about humans and their their capabilities. All the items you list are technical, but true nevertheless.

I am saying that, as a human, it is harder to give multiple precise inputs. Not everybody can execute 5 actions at the same time coherently, the majority cannot, that is not a hypothesis, that is a fact. Very few people are truly ambidextrous for a reason, only a very low percentage of the people is capable of it.

Your argument doesn't make sense in the context of the game we're discussing. This is a game that's dependent on both simultaneous and instantaneous buttons pressing. You are constantly shifting the analog alongside your actions to guard, feint, generally psyche out your opponents and execute complex combos that, you and I both know, requires at least 10 button prompts in the matter of seconds. A gamepad provides less buttons, but it does not make the controls less complex for the mind. In fact, having to remove your thumb to hit circle or square to feint or guard break/counter in the heat of the moment, requires more processing and input speed with a controller than with a m&k. Likewise, that also includes pressing multiple buttons to perform a single specific chat command, taunt, and etc due to limited buttons. The lack of switches are a double edged sword in this context. Comparatively, the concept of WASD is older than analogs and everyone are more than likely used to it, especially the average gamer. I highly, HIGHLY doubt OP would be at a disadvantage over that one common specific, nor do I think he even thought twice about it. It's just not the same as comparing aiming with an analog to a mouse.

So, I can suppose somehow WASD may put a player at a disadvantage because diagonal movements requires two fingers, but that's nothing compared to the overall control scheme and gameplay mechanics.


Last, you are assuming people use the standard kb setup in your comparison, I remap all buttons in all games to the keypad, which leaves me with a limited set of keys.

I don't know your keypad, but the ones on my keyboards always has about as much keys as there are buttons on a controller.


Again I just think we approach this from different angles: you have a technical perspective with an average gamer in mind, I say that there is no such thing as an average gamer looking at individual capabilities and I am approaching this from a bio/neurological limitation side.

There is absolutely no point in this debate then, because I've already acknowledged disabilities in my last post, and I also specifically said that the same issue can apply for controllers as well. For example, my next door neighbor has missing fingers, so he uses a m&k since the mouse is adaptable for just 2-3 fingers. The basis of your argument works both ways.


- True, with only WASD as an option, I would not buy the game, however that means either using a directional usage finger or give up the mouse control temporarily


- I think I cannot agree on this, as camera angels change anyway, I have to rectify it's position, mainly when close to objects. Feints and grabs, I did not
even use them, as it required moving my fingers from more important buttons, like direction, guard, run or starting a special. All require moving my
fingers from vital controls. Maybe I misunderstand your point here.

Um, your setup is pretty darn specific and uncommon, so I don't even know where to begin to rectify your issue. :p I don't think you should use your setup as a part of your argument, because most people would include the mouse to their setup.


- Only with a standard setup, which I do not use, so I have to disagree (a standard kb setup does not make it the norm for individuals, as you said it is
about preferences)

Actually, the default setup is a much more reliable basis of comparison than your specific setup since it's the very setup every player starts off with by default.


- Could you elaborate on this? I did not have any menu on my mouse settings, I found guard, block, light and heavy attack far more important.

I'm referring to the start menu, customization menu, etc.


- This has nothing to do with the game mechanics for me, I use TS and voice activation. Non item for me.

It's quite hypocritical of you to center the basis of your argument around the idea that I should be considerate of more players, such as gamers way past their prime, but then be close-minded about everything fact I listed that gives m&k an advantage. You aren't providing an argument here, it seems like you're just neglecting my points because it doesn't fit your preference.


To conclude, all your points are technical, which I never debated or disagreed with.

Actually, you most certainly debated it in your earlier posts. If that wasn't your intention, then you were either not clear enough or maybe I'm just derpy.

But back to the point, although my argument have become a little muddy since I've been focused on the advantages m&k has over the standard controller, there are pros and cons to both sides and at the end of the day, both will provide a good experience for the player.

Patient_Fodder
12-08-2016, 05:47 PM
To prevent having massive walls of text, I will just reply without quotes. : o)

My argument does make sense, it just has nothing to do with a game, it's mechanics or the equipment used. I am talking about biology and neurology.
This is the only reason why I disagree with you, again, technically you are perfectly right.

The keypad item is about not having quick acces across the board. But as this is a personal preference, yup it is a chosen disadvantage. Which again annuls any issue I have with my "disadvantage" (just to give it a name). I know it is uncommen, but I cannot help it that I played the iirst Prince of Persia on an Amstrad Schneider with 256 kb memory and 5 1/4 inch boot up floppies, it is just how old I am. Nothing will change that after those years.

Next point, or even almost all other points (read 1 line down please), agreed, no debate, it works both ways.

Just on the menu access, although convenient (esc), gameplay wise it has no advantage?

It seems that I just have trouble explaining that besides the hardware, there is a human brain which has to be taken into consideration which has to work harder when managing 2 devices and a larger area than with only 1 with a fixed 3d model (you hold it in your hands, the mouse requires movement in 2d where the pad does not).

Hope the above makes it somewhat clearer. : o)

Fatal-Feit
12-08-2016, 08:04 PM
Gameplay-wise, nah, it doesn't provide any benefit, but it does make navigating the menus a lot smoother for me personally, especially since I found them to be clunky and unintuitive.

If there's another thing that controller does better, it's accessibility--which was something the team worked hard on. I'd like to make the argument that handling stances with the mouse position feels more immersive than the analog (coming from Warband), but that doesn't depreciate how good the game feels with a controller anyway. I think we can agree to disagree on how substantial the players who are affected by the issue are, but I also acknowledge that it's a crucial factor for certain players.

Patient_Fodder
12-08-2016, 10:37 PM
Still, a good debate, thanks!
(Ps, it did help that locking on worked in the Alpha where as previously "NDA" (lol, you get it), that was true "NDA" and maybe I am biased on the technical side of the discussion because of that).