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View Full Version : La-7 v Mustang P-51 (April 22, 1945)



Whatsmypassword
04-08-2004, 06:48 PM
Something about a noob plane http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Whatsmypassword
04-08-2004, 06:48 PM
Something about a noob plane http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.gameroom.ru/files/images/img_products_289_0.jpg

Whatsmypassword
04-08-2004, 06:49 PM
Something about a noob plane http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In April, 1945 Guards Major Kozhedub (La-7) tried to defend an American B 17 from a pair of German fighters. However, the American fighters of the cover started firing from a large distance and attacked Kozhedub. Kozhedub promptly attacked the nearest machine. There was a smoke and it flew down towards our troops (the pilot of this machine soon jumped out with a parachute and landed safely.

Having carried out a battle turn from an inverted position Kozhedub also attacked the leader it flew up in the air. Later he managed to see white stars on unknown machines; there were "Mustangs". It was not the only fight between the Soviet and American pilots...

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Kuervito
04-08-2004, 07:00 PM
TK! Kick him! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
04-08-2004, 07:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kuervito:
TK! Kick him! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

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Whatsmypassword
04-08-2004, 07:22 PM
Kozhedub just tried to defend B-17 and then himself. Mustang pilots decided that his La-7 is a third F-190.
I remember even in MS CFS-3 if you play for Britain you get sometimes instructed in the briefings that yankees shoot first and ask questions later http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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frag_bravo
04-08-2004, 08:41 PM
In the blonde knight of Germany,Hartman witnessed many fights among Russian and American fighter planes.

johann63
04-08-2004, 09:27 PM
yeah and dont forget Korea, early 50's

the P-51 tangled with Yak3, Yak9, La7, La9, on a regular basis, and this was "legal"

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BlitzPig_johann

crazyivan1970
04-08-2004, 09:51 PM
Never heard that story. From Kozhedubs interview he mentioned the fact that in during patrol flight over german territory him and his wingman Tatarenko were attacked by flight of Mustangs that probably mistaken La7s for FW190. After short encounter 2 Mustangs were shot down by Kozhedub. If i remmeber correctly, one crashlanded and unfortunately 1 pilot was killed.

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Whatsmypassword
04-08-2004, 09:54 PM
Ivan find the interview of his son.

Russian pilots did not mention much any fights with Americans in their memoirs. But they quite often wrote about joint drinking with Allies pilots who made emergency landing.
The only other story I read was about a reconnaissance sorty made by a Pe-3. It was sent to Italy to check out how Americans are partying there with Italian girls. Americans tried to shoot it as they actually shoot all planes that did look like theirs but Pe-3 left unharmed.
Hartman was probably interested to show discrepancies between Allies as well as the Nazi propoganda was.
Such fights were not 'legal' at that time. Kozhedub was under investigation for some time even though he was twice Hero of Soviet Union but he was saved by that an American pilot that he brought down. He witnessed that they attacked a lone F-190 with red-nose but it warped like a friggin X-Wing and shot them down instead (he also probably thought that La-7 was overmodelled if compare with his Mustang) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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VW-IceFire
04-08-2004, 10:55 PM
There was alot of friendly fire incidents between allied aircraft.

In the first two years of operation, the Hawker Tempest was lost in combat to more Spitfires than to 109s or 190's. The problem was the similarity in the way the FW190 and the Typhoon looked like at long range. Tempests later in the war were also shot down by Mustangs and other types...even Mustangs were a target by friendly fire because they were considered similar in profile from some angles to the 109.

Its interesting to hear what happened between Mustangs and a La-7. Certain both were excellent planes.

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BuzzU
04-08-2004, 11:06 PM
Is there some point to this story? Other than Kozhedub was the best pilot Russia had?

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Kneenibbler
04-08-2004, 11:28 PM
Point is... you should always fly with Friendly icons on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seriously though ineresting stuff you dont usually hear about.

Timex62
04-08-2004, 11:49 PM
Ahh yes, the fog of war. And those were very foggy times indeed.

Close to the Edge

Stalker58
04-09-2004, 01:13 AM
But why Khozedub eneged? In his superior La7 he could easily extend from those sluggy Stangs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and leave them alone...

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

MornJW
04-09-2004, 02:29 AM
Great way to test the quality of the so called ally. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lav69
04-09-2004, 03:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Timex62:
Ahh yes, the fog of war. And those were very foggy times indeed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like the sixties. Now those were some "foggy" times.

_______________
I'm fixin to.

Cossack_UA
04-09-2004, 07:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalker58:
But why Khozedub eneged? In his superior La7 he could easily extend from those sluggy Stangs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and leave them alone...

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've read in his interview that he was extremely pissed because he couldn't believe that Americans didn't see RED nose of his La 7. He was convinced that they attacked him on purpose. He regrated that after he cooled off of course.

chris455
04-09-2004, 07:17 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif

Just a few more Mustangs would have made Kozhedub a Nazi ace, I guess.

[QUOTE]"He witnessed that they attacked a lone F-190 with red-nose but it warped like a friggin X-Wing and shot them down instead (he also probably thought that La-7 was overmodelled if compare with his Mustang)"

I'll bet that was their exact testimony too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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[This message was edited by chris455 on Fri April 09 2004 at 06:46 AM.]

LEXX_Luthor
04-09-2004, 07:24 AM
If USA can't defend B~17 then somebody has to LOL



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chris455
04-09-2004, 07:38 AM
As an aside, Lexx:
You may as well know that one of my goals in life is to have you quote me someday in your sig http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

S!

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Zyzbot
04-09-2004, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
There was alot of friendly fire incidents between allied aircraft<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And German too. I recall reading that one of the first times the Ta-152 was used in combat they were attacked by other Luftwaffe planes who did not recognize them.

Curly_109
04-09-2004, 08:04 AM
interesting stories...
man this forum is good http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Bearcat99
04-09-2004, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by johann63:
yeah and dont forget Korea, early 50's

the P-51 tangled with Yak3, Yak9, La7, La9, on a regular basis, and this was "legal"

http://www.blitzpigs.com/john/johann-3-04-sm.gif
BlitzPig_johann<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooooooo nice idea for a server!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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BlitzPig_DDT
04-09-2004, 10:39 AM
Wasn't there an incident where the soviets attacked P-38s too?

But it's not like the USAAF just shot at anything that didn't look like their own. They attacked their own as well. One that stands out in memory was a testament of how durable the P-47 is. Of coursem it's based on understand of how devastating 6 .50 cal M2s really are, something that is a far cry from FB. But anyway, a Mustang attacked a roundish radial engined fighter it thought was a 190A. The Jug pilot felt his plane getting hammered, pulled up, the Mustang saw the star'n'bars and broke off. The Jug landed with no fanfare as I recall, but the armor of the pilots seat back was just hammered with 50 cal. Any other plane would have had a dead pilot, or burning plane, or loss of control, or any combination.

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GR142_Astro
04-09-2004, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:

Ooooooo nice idea for a server!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sammie of GreaterGreen has already done a map similar to this in his rotation. Basically Yak3s vs P51s.

It was not pretty for the Stangs. I always thought it should have been Yak9u vs the Stang, but the outcome wouldn't have been much different.

Now I suppose we could try La7, Yak9u VS YP-80 and P51.......

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Bo_Nidle
04-09-2004, 02:00 PM
This was by no means an isolated incident.On the 18th March 1945 Mustangs from the 359th Fg engaged several Yak-9s and La-5s over and around the area of Zackerick airfield mistaking them for 109s and 190s.Even when the mistake was realised they could not disengage as the Russian pilots continued to attack.The P-51s ended up shooting down several Russians before the mistake was realised and several more afterwards trying to deafend themselves.

Stalin had the Russian pilots involved executed and demanded that Roosevelt did the same.General Doolittle stated he was not going to hang any of "his boys" and the incident was quietly forgotten about.

Only one pilot was courtmartialed from the 359thFg as he had also strafed the Russian aircraft on the airfield and his gun camera film was not "lost" as the other ones were.he was fined one dollar and given a carton of cigarettes and sent back to the USA.

Thats the problem with bullets,once they're on the way you can't call them back.



Bo_Nidle

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Vipez-
04-09-2004, 04:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Wasn't there an incident where the soviets attacked P-38s too?

But it's not like the USAAF just shot at anything that didn't look like their own. They attacked their own as well. One that stands out in memory was a testament of how durable the P-47 is. Of coursem it's based on understand of how devastating 6 .50 cal M2s really are, something that is a far cry from FB. But anyway, a Mustang attacked a roundish radial engined fighter it thought was a 190A. The Jug pilot felt his plane getting hammered, pulled up, the Mustang saw the star'n'bars and broke off. The Jug landed with no fanfare as I recall, but the armor of the pilots seat back was just hammered with 50 cal. Any other plane would have had a dead pilot, or burning plane, or loss of control, or any combination.

==================================
http://www.blitzpigs.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


that is funny, I think the .50s are just devastating (agaisnt german planes, sure some russian planes can absorb the .50cal fire, but hey, it's Delta WOOD http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif


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Whatsmypassword
04-09-2004, 05:35 PM
Where did you get this? Russian sources (I checked on Yandex) are silent on this point. there are lots of materials including diplomtic communications between Stalin adn Roosvelt but nothing about this incident. It should not be a big secret now as in late 80s-90s there were written a lot about the interaction of Allied and Soviet air forces and all Russian archives on WWII are open from 1991. I googled your post but even Google is silent too. Btw I think there were practially no La-5 in 1945, only some La-5FNs. Unless you prove that your source is reliable I doubt that this story is true.

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chris455
04-09-2004, 06:57 PM
nt
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[This message was edited by chris455 on Fri April 09 2004 at 06:57 PM.]

BBB_Hyperion
04-09-2004, 07:57 PM
I did read about this incident too was it over romania ? Remembering also a russian general was killed in this. Some US aircraft did ground strikes they though it were german positions but germans left the area already hours before was it the same incident ?.

Regards,
Hyperion

grist
04-09-2004, 08:21 PM
It's not surprising that the top allied ace can shoot down any opposing plane. As I read on these boards, it's the pilot not the plane.

MornJW
04-09-2004, 08:44 PM
But La-7 is faster on deck and more manverable than the P-51 according to the specs, that is the facts.

BuzzU
04-09-2004, 11:38 PM
Put Kozhedub in the P-51, and he would have shot down the La7's. Like I said. This story only proves he was a great pilot.

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MornJW
04-10-2004, 12:45 AM
La-7 can out climb, out turn and out run it (on the deck only though).
P-51 one of the best fighters though, great high altitude speed, high speed control, range and good manverablity. But I wouldn't call it clearly the best.
Here's a comman saying that allied pilots had. "The Mustang won't do what a Spitfire does, but it does it over Berlin".

LEXX_Luthor
04-10-2004, 01:11 AM
MornJW:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>allied pilots:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"The Mustang won't do what a Spitfire does, but it does it over Berlin."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Almost Xen like poetry. Nice to see a rare student of World War 2 history here. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



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:
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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Aaron_GT
04-10-2004, 07:03 AM
"Kozhedub just tried to defend B-17 and then himself. Mustang pilots decided that his La-7 is a third F-190.
I remember even in MS CFS-3 if you play for Britain you get sometimes instructed in the briefings that yankees shoot first and ask questions later "

Mind you, I believe the first RAF kills
in WW2 were friendly fire (first losses
too AFAIK).

LEXX_Luthor
04-10-2004, 11:23 AM
LOL another one.

When Germans fire, Brits take cover.
When Brits fire, Germans take cover.
When USAns fire, everybody take cover.

um, another...Ju~87 STUKA got the first air-air kill of World War 2 (was not supposed to happen like that, Fb109 EMAIL was *supposed* to get first kill)

I~153 CHAIKA got the first air-air kill over Easter Front (was not supposed to happen like that, Fb109 was *supposed* to get first kill)

Zyzbot
04-10-2004, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
LOL another one.

When Germans fire, Brits take cover.
When Brits fire, Germans take cover.
When USAns fire, everybody take cover.

um, another...Ju~87 STUKA got the first air-air kill of World War 2 _(was not supposed to happen like that, Fb109 EMAIL was *supposed* to get first kill)_

I~153 CHAIKA got the first air-air kill over Easter Front _(was not supposed to happen like that, Fb109 was *supposed* to get first kill)_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


He was referring to the first RAF kills...not the first kills of WWII. and yes it is true...the first RAf kills were friendly fire kills.

KIMURA
04-10-2004, 03:25 PM
I'm in doubt any La-7 could reach the hights were B-17 and Ponies flew. That Kosh.story seems like a tale of robbers. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Bo_Nidle
04-10-2004, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Whatsmypassword:
Where did you get this? Russian sources (I checked on Yandex) are silent on this point. there are lots of materials including diplomtic communications between Stalin adn Roosvelt but nothing about this incident. It should not be a big secret now as in late 80s-90s there were written a lot about the interaction of Allied and Soviet air forces and all Russian archives on WWII are open from 1991. I googled your post but even Google is silent too. Btw I think there were practially no La-5 in 1945, only some La-5FNs. Unless you prove that your source is reliable I doubt that this story is true.

http://www.gameroom.ru/files/images/img_products_289_0.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this refers to my post: my source for this is the book by Jack H Smith on the 359thFg published by Osprey in their Aviation Elite Units series (No 10).



Bo_Nidle

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