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View Full Version : P-47 Gunfire Seems Anemic



XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 06:06 PM
Maybe its just me, but I thought the combined effect of eight 50 caliber machine guns would be more dramatic. Sure, its not cannonfire but 8 x .5 is a lot of lead.

On the other hand, maybe that's simply the way it was. I haven't detected a lack of research in IL-2.



Easy

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 06:06 PM
Maybe its just me, but I thought the combined effect of eight 50 caliber machine guns would be more dramatic. Sure, its not cannonfire but 8 x .5 is a lot of lead.

On the other hand, maybe that's simply the way it was. I haven't detected a lack of research in IL-2.



Easy

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 06:12 PM
Its undermodeled, Its too inaccurate. Want proof?

go here http://www.sqn431.mirrorz.com/

then goto the media room. Goto ww2 archive. Then watch the ww2 bombers video. Theres alot of p47 Guncam footage. You'll see what i meen.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 06:15 PM
One word: Convergence

Get it set-up right and then try again. Always fire at convergence range or else you'll just spray your ammo in the air without effect!
That's no bug...

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/AbzeichenGeschwader/9JG52-1.JPG

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 06:16 PM
Prior to the release of FB, some of us in the 777 AVG heard some stories from some beta testers that the .50 M2's were going to be very weak. Apparently, some Luftwhiners were complaining that they were too potent and needed to be downgraded. As a result, we began collecting as much historical documentation as possible to support Oleg's modelling.

Laughably, some other Luftwhiners tried to accuse us of attacking Oleg by doing this.

Once FB was released, it became very obvious the the American .50's were modelled very well. 8 of them hitting a target tend to shred it to bits (as opposed to a cannon's blasting it apart).

Watch your convergence and make sure your target is right there when you shoot at it. And make sure you hit both triggers otherwise you'll only be firing 4 guns.

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 06:35 PM
They go WAY too wide for my taste. And that's at ANY convergence.

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 06:46 PM
During World War 2, on the P47 each set of guns were set at a different convergence. Someone posted it earlier, I think it was 150m, 200m, 400m, 600m. The Army Air Corp knew most of its pilots where rookies, and whated to give them the greatest chance of hitting something, because in real life, if a 109 pilot it being hit with a few 50 bullets, he is going to break off and go home.

In the game you want to shred your target. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

For dogfighting I think 200m is just about right. If I am going to be doing alot of straifing, I put it out to 400-500m, if I am going to be doing both, I put half at each setting. 4 guns at convergence are better then 8 guns spraying all around.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:09 PM
I think the damage is acceptable it's the fact I can hardly see the tracer stream that bugs me even more. Watching the gun cam footage of a p-47s firing 8 50s is incredible but for some reason in il-2 - the stream is almost invisible.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:15 PM
I think their ok. You can even take out AAA with them.

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:41 PM
I've had good results with them.

My best run has been 3 kills (2xFW-190A9 and 109G6) scored with a total of 5 hits. 1 by pkill, 1 by engine kill, 1 by de-winging.

But they're so wide apart the convergence sucks. For this reason I set half my guns for 150m, the other half for 300m. Gives a nice newb-friendly spray effective at any range.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 08:52 PM
Fennec,


How do you split the MG's to give different convergence distances? Is some portion of the MG battery controlled by the separate cannon trigger?



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 09:28 PM
maybe i should record tracks flying that p47 to show you guys those guns are just perfect. i spray only a few bullets and the enemies usually go up in flames.

that's why i love my jug http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 09:29 PM
BLUTARSKI wrote:
- Fennec,
-
-
- How do you split the MG's to give different
- convergence distances? Is some portion of the MG
- battery controlled by the separate cannon trigger?
-

WOW, he actually FOUND THIS OUT ! The Great Secret itself! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Bravo, Blutarski. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:18 AM
MOH_TRACKER wrote:
- i spray only a few bullets and the enemies usually go up in flames.

That's ususally what happens when you use a plane correctly!


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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:26 AM
nah they are weak as hell in this game especially against the super wood planes, .50 cal High explosive tipped inciderary magnesium tipped would eat thru wood structures in a second. 1 out of every 10 shots fired contained a tracer in white or red "Discovery wings"

They work pretty well against the 109s and 190s in FB but they are pretty much useless against VVS with the exception of the mig3. This morning they had a bunch of great guncam footage from p47s and p51ds shooting wings off 190s and 109s with 2 tracers only. 20 shots

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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:34 AM
Boy Isegrim, for a second you almost sounded like an asshat. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:45 AM
MOH_TRACKER wrote:
- maybe i should record tracks flying that p47 to show
- you guys those guns are just perfect. i spray only a
- few bullets and the enemies usually go up in flames.
-
- that's why i love my jug /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
-

What do you set your convergence at MOH-man?

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:52 AM
Actually, I think they are quite OK here in this sim. It just seems reasonable to me. Poor for snapshots, but when you get a good tracking shot most planes will take fatal damage. One reason why some people think they are to weak might be the fact that you don't see the tracers very well (compared to other guns) and the same goes for hits. But once you got used to it, you get the eyes for it. And I'm sure there are still some people out there who aren't aware you have to pull both triggers for 8 guns.

I just have weird experiences with one plane, the Stuka: Today I was again attacking a Stuka, and unloaded almost all my P-47 ammo into it, first from conv range and then below conv range, it started losing fuel but nothing else. Even when below conv range, I saw many hits going into the fuselage (I was slightly offset) but the effect was negligable. It just continued to fly w/o a problem until a buddy took it out with cannons. That was weird. But against other planes, they are really OK for me especially when you get hits into the engine, this almost immediately causes blacksmoke, or PK when closing in on the pit.

BTW, I remember there was a short debate here quite some time ago already, where some people wondered why we had no smoke tracers for the 50s and someone suggested that they didn't have them iRL either. Well, but you know there are many guncams, often the colored ones, from late war, 44, 45, when P-47s were conducting strafing runs on ground targets all over Germany, with smoke tracers. You'll also see smoke tracers from the guncam films in "Tuskegee Airmen", when they strafe railyards and stuff. Now, I don't know which was the actual plane in those guncams, but it must have been either a stang or a jug because you could clearly see the guns were wingmounted (so it was no P-38).

If that's correct, I would really appreciate smoke tracers for the 50s. But be aware the smoke they left behind looked quite different to that one of the LW 20mm guns. Some people here said the LW 20mm guns smoke looks unrealistic and like from "railguns", but actually, when you take LW guncamera films into account (there are quite alot on the net off attacks against B-17 formations), you have to say Oleg did an excellent job with this smoke, it looks exactly like the real thing. The smoke left behind from the USAAF 50cal tracers looked different in the way it wasn't as long and as "tight", it seemed to "wash out" earlier.

Regards,
heartc

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 12:54 AM
Hm, I see SkyChimp is on, maybe you know some more about 50cal smoke tracer issue? Maybe the russians actually didn't use smoke tracers for 50s, while the USAAF did?

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:30 AM
Even the P-39 with just four packs a punch when you connect. The P-40's are deadly with good nose pointing and six, the Jugg's are just plain plane shredders, just harder to connect.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:41 AM
I hosted a P47 dogfight server a while back just to try and get a feel the jugg and I noticed that with the correct convergence the p47 will shred even a heavily armoured enemy in seconds.

I recall seeing a p47 break high with low enery and as he drifted there like a big fat target I was able to get a perfect firing angle on him and I raked him from nose to tail and wing tip to wingtip. All those hits in such a small amount of time was an amazing sight and he was dead meat with just several short bursts with all guns.


The trick is getting the flying brick pointed in the dirction you want fast enough/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:48 AM
50 cal is gun of choice for whacking vehicles. One hit to take out a truck, and can kill everything up to a light tank.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 11:33 AM
In the 47, I set the convergence to 150 and 250, I have found that this works best for my style of attack and I rarely think about the 1 shot or quick burst kill. What I try to do is just fire at the opponent hoping for a quick kill but expecting too disable the enemies control surfaces enough for me to move in closer with minimum risk to myself. With 8x 50 cals one quick burst on the first pass is usually enough to turn most planes in to a flying beached Whale.

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Message Edited on 06/23/03 08:56PM by HighRollerS

Message Edited on 06/23/03 08:58PM by HighRollerS

Message Edited on 06/23/03 08:59PM by HighRollerS

Message Edited on 06/23/03 08:59PM by HighRollerS

Message Edited on 06/23/03 08:59PM by HighRollerS

Message Edited on 06/23/0309:00PM by HighRollerS

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:48 PM
It seems to me that there is more spread
from the P47 guns than the P40. This may
well be accurate with more dispersion on
the wing design in the P47, perhaps. I
note that on the P47B the P47 was rated
for either 6 .50s with a full ammo load,
or 8 guns with 300 rounds per gun, which
suggests that they were having trouble
at some point (It was in the pdf of the
manual that someone posted a while back).

It seems that sometimes the guns are
totally devastating, and sometimes not
at all. But that might mean that although
you can always get some hits on target,
it takes a bit of skill/luck to get enough
hits on target to down the target. With
the arcade mode on flying against He111s
(quite a bit target) I noticed that
sometimes I hit with as few as 10% of the
rounds. Sometimes a short burst tears
a wing off a fighter, though.

I hear that smaller calibre rounds are due
to get a boost in the patch, though.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 06:38 PM
The 8 x 50 cals rock!

My favourite moment in FB was coming up behind a H129 and letting rip from about 40 yards with all 8 MG's.

First the tailplane and stabilizers got blown off then one engine then the other shot off in flames and finally the wings came off. Never seen a plane get ripped up like that before or since. Beautiful destruction!

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 01:40 AM
ohh yes for sure its all the Luftwhiners fault.
u know they are all (me including) very intrested to get your U.S. guns bad.
So if Oleg will change it, its becouse us Luftwhiners
Oleg gives a lot of the words (opinion) of Luftwhiners u know /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:16 AM
Lets just face it guys. All the dam aircraft in this game are all screwed up. The new patch is said to have somewhat like 180 fixes or somthing. Whats that tell you?
It looks like Ubi rushed this sim out way before it was even compleat. I mean look! their are alot of features missing. Most German aircraft are missing Nav Lights and other stuff.



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So he tells me, "I ban the Me262 cause its turn rate is over modeled and it dosnt stall"... Then he takes off from his base in a Hurricane.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 10:42 AM
"Maybe its just me, but I thought the combined effect of eight 50 caliber machine guns would be more dramatic."


At least, when mounted on a Ventura, some 50's were said to be able to cut a small ship in pieces!

http://www.pbase.com/image/18117737

I've also seen vids of gunship variants of the B-25 making attacks on ships in New-Guinea, it was simply devastating!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 03:29 PM
How effective do they have to be?

After reading one of these threads a while back, I decided to give the Jug a go in QMB. Against most LW and VVS aircraft, a short burst was enough to bring them down (and in many cases chop them to mince).

Nothing wromg with the guns IMHO (I agree with the tracer comments though).

Regards

Mike

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