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frag_bravo
03-04-2004, 05:43 PM

frag_bravo
03-04-2004, 05:43 PM

georgeo76
03-04-2004, 06:04 PM
ME 262 was operational and effective for a long period near the end of the war. IIRC the comet only scored one kill.

Fiend's Wings (http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend)

FI-Aflak
03-04-2004, 06:27 PM
I thought that the comet had a whole bunch of kills . . . .

WhiskeyRiver
03-04-2004, 06:29 PM
I read the book written by one of the 163 pilots. I don't think he ever mentioned any kills. Mk-108's jammed a lot he said.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

clint-ruin
03-04-2004, 06:44 PM
Wouldn't be surprised to find that flak got more bombers in total than any one type of fighter, quite possibly more than 'fighters' generally.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Dunkelgrun
03-05-2004, 03:58 AM
The number of kills credited to the Komet is not certain, but 12-15 is generally accepted.
I would think that the 262 had far more than that as it was in service longer and the Komet was eventually restricted to just one airfield.
Flak has to be the winner 1939 to 45, must have accounted for tens of thousands.
Cheers!

http://www.uploadit.org/igmusapa/tft2.jpg
www.nightbomber.com (http://www.nightbomber.com)

Dunkelgrun aka Black.Cat and T4T_Cat

jtasker
03-05-2004, 04:35 AM
Hround fire accounted for at LEAST 4 out of 5 aircraft "combat" losses in WWII.. some people estimate closer to 90%

Menthol_moose
03-05-2004, 04:46 AM
The accuracy and effectiveness of FLAK or anti-aircraft artillery fire was derided at the start of the war but it gained a healthy respect as the war dragged on. By 1942 15,000 88mm (3.46 in) guns formed the bulk of heavy flak defenses for Germany. Large numbers of 37mm (1.47 in) and 20mm (0.79 in) guns filled the skies with shells during every air raid. Often arrayed in "belts" around a city or target 88s could fire 22 lb (10 kg) shells up to 35,000 ft (10600 m) at a rate of 15-20 rounds per minute. The excellent 88mm (3.46 in) gun proved very effective especially when radar was used to help with aiming. The shells exploding at a preset altitude sending metal splinters flying in all directions. Later groups of up to 40 heavy flak guns Grossbatterien fired rectangular patterns of shellbursts known as box barrages that proved very deadly to enemy bombers.

In 1944 Flak accounted for 3,501 American planes destroyed, enemy fighters shot down about 600 less in the same time period. More flak guns gradually appeared, mainly the 128mm (5 in) German Flak accounted for 50 of the 72 RAF bombers lost over Berlin on the night of March 24th, 1944. An incredible 56 bombers were destroyed or crippled by flak during a B-17 raid on Merseburg in November of 1944.

The accuracy and effectiveness of FLAK or anti-aircraft artillery fire was derided at the start of the war but gained a healthy respect as the war dragged on. At the start of the night offensive, the defenders had to rely upon about 450 heavy flak guns backed by a hundred or so searchlight batteries. The multi-use 88mm (3.46 in) guns formed the bulk of heavy flak defenses for Germany. Large numbers of 37mm (1.47 in) and 20mm (0.79 in) guns filled the skies with shells during every air raid. Often arrayed in "belts" around a city eight-eight guns could hurl 22 lb (10 kg) shells up to 35,000 ft (10,600m) at a rate of 15-20 rounds per minute. The excellent 88mm (3.46 in) gun proved very effective especially when radar was used to help with aiming. The shells exploded at a preset altitude sending metal splinters flying in all directions.


The German Flak arm was also being strengthened by increasing the size of the 88 mm light batteries from 4 guns to 8. To guard the more important targets Grossbatterien comprising 2 or 3 of the enlarged single batteries were created (up to 40 heavy flak guns) firing rectangular patterns of shells known as box barrages that proved deadly. Each battery, large or small, was controlled by a single predictor which meant that up to 18 guns might engage one bomber at a time. The firepower also increased as larger calibre guns were introduced including a 105mm weapon and the largest of all a massive 125mm gun.

In 1944 Flak accounted for 3,501 American planes destroyed, 600 less than planes lost to enemy fighters in the same time period. Constant demand for front line troops for the German army meant that many of the flak crews included elderly men, schoolboys, and even POWs. Heavier flak guns gradually appeared mainly the 105 mm (4.13 in) FLAK 38 and the 128mm (5 in) FLAK 40. The 128mm FLAK 40 consisted of two barrels 3 ft apart on a single mounting. German Flak accounted for 50 of the 72 RAF bombers lost over Berlin on the night of March 24th, 1944. An incredible 56 bombers were destroyed or crippled by flak during a B-17 raid on Merseburg in November of 1944.

A true proximity fuse or variable time fuse was never developed by Germany despite extensive efforts to do so. Allied planners estimated that German FLAK would be about three times more deadly if they had proximity fused shells.

The guns were grouped in fours with a predictor (a device used to estimate where the aircraft would be by the time the shell reached it and thus provide information as to where to aim). The searchlights were sited in threes with a sound locator which, as its name implies, located the position of an aircraft by fixing on the sound of its engines. The range of the sound locators was about 6,000 yards but, in view of the time taken for the sound to reach the instrument, the calculated position of the target could be up to a mile behind its actual position, a discrepancy which had to be allowed for in aiming the guns.

When the flak batteries pinpointed an aircraft the guns were fired in salvoes designed to burst in a sphere of 60 yards in diameter in which it was hoped to entrap the target. Each gun, usually of 88mm calibre, could project a shell to 20,000ft and could knock out an aircraft within 30 yards of the shell burst. However, the shrapnel from the explosion was still capable of inflicting serious damage up to 200 yards.

In daylight the predictor crews followed the aircraft by telescope but at night the sound locators directed the searchlights (which had a range of 14,000 yards in clear weather). However, by night or day, the effectiveness of the flak arm in this early period was severely curtailed by clouds.


In January of 1944 there were 20,625 FLAK guns (7,941 heavy guns and 12,684 light/medium guns) with 6,880 searchlights defending Germany. Stationed on other fronts were another 9,569 anti-aircraft guns and 960 searchlights, these totals do not include Army and Navy FLAK units.

By August 1944 10,930 FLAK 18, 36 and FLAK 37 guns were defending the Reich.

279 of the improved FLAK41 were in use by Febuary of '45 in the air defense role.

Since the eight-eight could be used to good affect against tanks as well as aircraft the use of so many in the air defense role was consistenly questioned. By some estimates 3,343 shells costing a total of 267,440 reichsmarks ($107,000) were required to bring down one bomber. By the end of 1944 it was taking about 33500 rounds for each aircraft downed compared to the 4057 rounds required in 1942. The hard pressed Germans fighting on the Eastern front could have nearly doubled their anti-tank strength with the guns defending the Reich from enemy planes.

Ammunition consumption soared from a monthly average of 500,000 shells in 1941/42 to 3,175,400 shells in December 1944! At peak strength over 2 million soliders and civilians are involved in ground anti-aircraft defenses. 30% of all gun and 20% of heavy ammuninition production went for air-defense in 1944.

http://www.ww2guide.com/flak_3.jpg

Mr Flak 88, one mean SOB.


http://www.ww2guide.com/flakhit.jpg
http://www.ww2guide.com/flak.shtml

[This message was edited by Menthol_moose on Fri March 05 2004 at 04:00 AM.]

MandMs
03-05-2004, 04:55 AM
Goering once commented (late in the war, iirc) as to why there was a LW, for Flak was getting better results than a/c.

A link to a Komet site http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.walker6/komet/flight/flight1.htm

It says "Several hundred 163Bs were built,
but only 91 were operational as of December 31, 1944, and only 16 kills were attributed to 163s during the War. Note, however, that while under power or in a fast glide, the 163 could fly circles around any other fighter of its time."



I eat the red ones last.

CRSutton
03-05-2004, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FI-Aflak:
I thought that the comet had a whole bunch of kills . . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Killed a few of its own pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ZG77_Lignite
03-05-2004, 01:16 PM
MandM, I don't doubt your quote, but it gives a bit of insight into Goering's mental state. As I believe all defensive Flak batteries fell under command of the Luftwaffe. He must have really inspired a lot of confidence.