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View Full Version : Weapons and Weapon Talents after Update 1.4



Ubi-gabelikes
10-28-2016, 02:05 PM
Agents,

Update 1.4 introduced several changes to both Weapon and Weapon Talents. We continue to monitor feedback and discussions surrounding them as we continue our efforts to improve the game post Update 1.4.

To kick off the discussion, you will find a link to a new survey below and we are very interested to hear your thoughts!

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/td14weapons

As always, do not hesitate to provide your thoughts in this thread!

Thanks,

The Division Dev Team

MonsterOfMyOwn
10-28-2016, 05:10 PM
About weapons talents, it's difficult to answer because some talents are not good because of their effect in-game
-> example toxic : blind debuff is really short, and even when you use high rof pistol you can't decently disable a NPC.
other talents are not good because of their requirements
-> example : competent : the buff is almost OK, but it need high electronics, so I can't use it with a DPS build.
Things haven't much changed from patch 1.3, I still look for the same bonus, maybe appart from predatory which is good now, and coldhead which have been nerfed due to smart cover / support station cooldown change, and dealdy which have been nerfed due to CHC nerf.


Then about "Named weapons", they doesn't have specific bonus, so unless they have godroll talents such as "brutal / responsive / free ferocious" I won't even take a look.
the sad thing is that GS182 cadduceus was OK without alphabridge in patch 1.3.

I'm puzzled about the dual barrel shotgun (not sawed off) and the revolver. Either I missed a hidden bonus, or these weapons are bad.
The dual barrel shotgun doesn't look better than the side-arm version so for a "main" weapon it's burst capability is too low, mainly because it doesn't have mods. IMHO with a better accuracy (equivalent to accuracy mod) and a better optimal range (equivalent to optimal range mod) it could be OK.
I feel the same for the revolver, when you compare it to a M1911 it hits just a little harder but is not stable and can't be modded. I feel it lacks something (native headshot bonus ?)

Then about weapon types, LMG, AR, shotguns are usable. M44 / SRS MMR are still usable (I still have to check for SVD). SMG feels below average in PvE.

Scr4mp
10-28-2016, 05:20 PM
Double barreld shotguns are so bad right now you could even remove them from the game. Same for Magnums, they need a buff. Actually any weapon that has 2 mod slots less than the majority of the rest of the weapon category doesn't even get looked at by a lot of players.

You forgot to include the Unforgiving talent in your survey.

SMGs are still a big let down so far. Worse damage than other weapons, bad weapon bomus (honestly just switch it back to ChC) and the fact that most of the SMGs can't fit the headshot damage heavy weapon mods (12x scope and omega suppressor, with exception of the vektor).
Also I'm gonna mention it here: we need pistol caches!

Oh, and I allmost forgot, Self-preserved needs a huge buff! Since you guys kicked ChC and ChD out of the window and guns aren't doing that much damage anymore it is pretty useless. Actually, scrap the buff, I'd say it needs a rework.

powdernitz
10-28-2016, 06:42 PM
first off, any weapon that doesn't have all the mod slots is instantly lower tier. i'll always choose a weapon that has all the mod slots rather than one that lacks some. for example the black market rpk LMG has all the slots, but for some reason the military rpk lmg is missing one. so the black market instantly becomes way better than the military version. especially with weapon handling now, i need all the mod slots i can get to improve my weapons.

smgs are crap now. short range, dmg nerfs, and very difficult to build for crit hit chance and dmg. the smgs are trash tier of automatic weapons now. i'd say with all the nerfs they've gotten, i'd say bringing back crit hit chance as the default rather than crit hit dmg might be enough to bring them back to relevance. and they def wouldn't be OP.

semi auto snipers are pretty trash right now as anything but support. if you want to dps w sentry, it's gotta be bolt action. m1a, scar h, and svd are only good for sentry marks for a squad... not nearly as effective. they don't need to be insane, but the semi auto snipers need a damage buff to compete.

loving lmgs and ARs. some of the weapon handling is nuts though. for example, the m4s and aks are fine weapons, but they're handling is way worse than other ARs... so much so that they're like never used. especially with how little weapon stability we can add now. just nerf their recoil a bit to compete better w the scar L, acr, and g36 as viable competitors. seriously loving lmgs though. they're all viable and good to play with.

shotguns are tough. some are good for pvp, some are good for pve... but all are lower tier generally than ARs and LMGs due to recent nerfs and changes.

and as far as pistols go... any pistols that don't allow for the mod slots are just useless. and the magnum is atrocious. just make them all have mod slots and then they all may get more use.

OGBobbyJonsun
10-28-2016, 10:04 PM
Agents,

Update 1.4 introduced several changes to both Weapon and Weapon Talents. We continue to monitor feedback and discussions surrounding them as we continue our efforts to improve the game post Update 1.4.

The Division Dev Team

I'm a PS4 player and I'm loving the new balance. I was never a fan of SMGs and felt that the game was very bland with so many well designed weapons at our disposal that were useless in combat.


All of the ARs feel great and seem to balance each other out very well. I can actually be effective using a lightweight M4. No complaints here.
LMGs are powerful (and should be). They force players to use cover instead of the run-and-gun approach seen in previous patches.
Sniper rifles are in a good place now that the M1A has came back to earth. Very good job on bringing the Scar-H back from the dead as well.
Shotguns can still be OP if the correct build is acquired. *Please look into other options for PvP balancing instead of a damage nerf.
SMGs are still viable but have their rightful place now. Maybe a VERY TINY buff is needed for diversity purposes. Maybe.



Overall, I'm very satisfied with this update. I believe that the new weapon balancing is the most important part of this overhaul. Extra loot and rebalanced NPCs mean nothing if we're all running around using the same 3 guns.

powdernitz
10-28-2016, 10:54 PM
the survey should include descriptions of the talents so folks dont get confused. i had to google a bunch to make sure i didn't get them mixed up. if some ppl don't do that, then they'll rate stuff incorrectly.

luc122c
10-29-2016, 02:15 AM
Great idea guys, keep the Agent Intel going! I'm sure you find the feedback useful and the community loves the input!

Great job with the balancing, It's so much better than 1.3! The weapons are so much more varied however the differences cancel each other out so they are indeed very balanced. It was mentioned in a SOTG that you wanted the weapons to feel like they did in the pre-30 game. Well.... *slow clap*....you did it!

When reviewing Named Weapons, I'd love you to be able to make them feel special again. I want to have that excitement like I had when my Caduceus dropped or I first tried the Showstopper. However, they shouldn't become too overpowered so I don't think damage is the way to go. Well paired talents or exciting combos of talents is great! Like the 1.3 Caduceus, I totally understand why you had to remove coolheaded from it now, however in 1.3, it was an exciting choice, especially with AlphaBridge.

I also agree with @powdernitz that the descriptions should be added to the form, I had to load up the game to check them out.

Arc-of-Dream
10-29-2016, 02:11 PM
Before diving in and making another long response detailing each bit, I just want to get this bit out of the way first:

1. Talents that trigger on kill are unreliable. In a group that is focus-firing a target, you are competing for the killing blow and may never actually activate those talents. This discourages cooperative play in groups as individuals who rely on weapon talents will attempt to pick off other targets to ensure the killing blow rather than properly prioritizing enemy targets. I believe these talents should also trigger if an individual had damaged the target shortly before its death.

Tangentially related is the recent issue with Health-on-kill. As a solo player you by definition will always land the killing blow and thus benefit. This made HoK, Sustained, and Predatory seem overpowered, while in a group setting it is unreliable.

2. Talents that require a trigger are not balanced for the rarity of the trigger. The most common offense is that when these talents are activated, they provide very little in terms of a gain. For example, Competent. Given ~100k SP Overdose kept on cooldown, you have an effective damage boost of 5%. In practice, it'll be much lower as Overdose is not often used on cooldown.

Another issue is with ones that specify "first X bullets" or "last X bullets". Mag size comes into play. Astute is the biggest offender, followed by Provident. In a 5-round M44, you have an effective 3% crit chance boost. In a 100-round M60? 0.15%, not even worth it. Provident gives a 5-round M44 gives an overall 12% more damage per magazine, but who keeps it a 5-round magazine anyways?

In other words, the bonuses in the short term do not pan out to anything meaningful in the long term.

Other thoughts:

Raw stat increases are lazy and encourages a static meta. Talents should encourage a certain playstyle. For example, Competent, Coolheaded and Determined works with build that uses skills often. Self-Sustained meshes well with tanks and crit builds.

Tjalon.
10-30-2016, 04:30 AM
I have both Stability and Accuracy unlocked on my AlphaBridge build using ARs. Neither of the bonuses for these talents are translating to improved stability or accuracy on my character screen. I have not seen this listed on the known issues page and am wondering if anyone else has noticed this issue?

Karmaholic-EU
10-30-2016, 03:18 PM
Please can you find a way to nerf the aim assist to the shotguns on console it still snaps to head and 1-2 shots anyone. And also can you add a little bit of a delay to the grenade timer or something like that mine does 80k to an agent its a bit un-fair Right thanks if you see this :)

RawWilson1
10-30-2016, 03:25 PM
Agents,

Update 1.4 introduced several changes to both Weapon and Weapon Talents. We continue to monitor feedback and discussions surrounding them as we continue our efforts to improve the game post Update 1.4.

To kick off the discussion, you will find a link to a new survey below and we are very interested to hear your thoughts!

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/td14weapons

As always, do not hesitate to provide your thoughts in this thread!
Thanks,

The Division Dev Team

I bought The Division because of the promise of it's Dark Zone (PvP). Level advantages should be turned off in the Dark Zone. Players should be able to go into the Dark Zone and have PvP with anybody without worrying about gear score or whatever.

However, once a month for an entire week, a game mode where level advantages are turned on could be featured for the entire Dark Zone where players will have to be mindful of gear score or whatever.

This would make me so happy I bought The Division, because at the moment I am unhappy with what it is today.

Pyknospex
10-30-2016, 04:09 PM
Survey really needs an "no idea / don't have one" answer for these questions. I had most of the various weapons before 1.4, but most sucked so bad they god sold or scrapped.

essenthy
10-30-2016, 05:12 PM
WRONG THREAD, please move it where it should, thx

- add clear infos ( in game ) on where to loot specific parts of a set, currently i have no idea of where to loot the mask of any sets for example
- the AI is currently broken and too defensive, sometimes enemies just get stuck in cover mod and never ever attack, i used to run away from the enemies, now am chasing them most of the time since 1.4 ...
- ther's way too much loot, specifically sets parts, i have so many of them yet 1) none interest me 2) i cant complete any of them ( see point n1 )
- where the hell are the performance mods ?
- reduce the amount of gear sets, ther's just too much of them, half of them with cryptic full set bonus
- gear vendors are confusing and ther's too many, one sell mods and gear, the other weapons and mods, the other blue print and whatever .. i have no idea what to buy and where, either reduce them or make specific NPC sell ONLY specific stuff, why are they so bloated ?
- remove loot reward from XP or at least dont give the highest level gear from that, this is so lazy and easy, come on
- there should be a higher item tier level than 229 ( JUST ONE ), what am i supposed to do when ive already reached that ? why isnt there something higher thats difficult to obtain ? am not asking for 1.3 crazyness, but rather something that would require effort thru time for example, or that only loot very rarely (on all bosses loot table) think of legendary from wow
- add hard to obtain/loot vanity items like skin
- vendors UI is too small, its not even big enough to fully show the name of some items
- make vendors accept refunds for a limited time (2hrs) ? ive just lost 1k PC when 1.4 released ..
- the UI is a mess and full of redundant infos and windows ( however i still love how it look ! ), to check my stats or gear stat or mod stats i have to juggle between so many windows, the MAIN character gear window need to display every stats of every piece of gear/mod/weapons ( think wow character windows ), also stop previewing ( numbers ) stat change unless i equip something
- remove the possibility to group in the DZ, or make a version of it that does not allow group wich should solve many problems toward solo players who still want to go there
- give me a sense of progression with quests or whatever, currently am already 229 and i have no idea what to do when i loggin beside going to grind, i dont mind grinding, but its not fun, ther's no intensive to go back to the game
- Please more quests, more dynamic events in the open world, more interaction with NPCs, more lore simply, make the world feel a little alive, make me feel like am in a catastrophic event rather than a grinding machine
- more gore, the game is PEGI 18+, why bother to hide the misery and the human catastrophe that's a biological attack ? why dont you guys try to immerse us a little more ?
- make heal or pulse baseline, i want to use the other talent so badly but i cant and am not having fun, i love the turret i love the sticky bomb and the seeker mine, they are so cool, yet i cant use any of that if i want to survive in a high level mission ( let alone in the dark zone ... )
- why every mission in underground level look the same ? ive see the bank level maybe 1 time ( am rank 24 )

anyways there are many other things, but am happy with 1.4

thanks for the all effort on fixing the game, its appreciated

MadMattatatta
10-30-2016, 07:40 PM
I bought The Division because of the promise of it's Dark Zone (PvP). Level advantages should be turned off in the Dark Zone. Players should be able to go into the Dark Zone and have PvP with anybody without worrying about gear score or whatever.

However, once a month for an entire week, a game mode where level advantages are turned on could be featured for the entire Dark Zone where players will have to be mindful of gear score or whatever.

This would make me so happy I bought The Division, because at the moment I am unhappy with what it is today.


should read I bought The division and wanted PvP to be exactly like Destiny

Red_Oryx
10-30-2016, 09:33 PM
In the broad strokes i think 1.4 has succeeded in creating a new point from which to balance the weapons. So thats a victory. I like that both pistols and snipers now seem to scale damage based on factors such as ROF and Stability. these are basic MMO mechanics (slower the weapon/higher the damage) and they will greatly improve the experience of using these weapon types.

I think a lot of the weapon talents that have conditions such as provident and intense need to be adjusted to either increase effect or loosen conditions under which they happen. Earlier it was pointed out that "who uses a 5 round mag on an m44?" well i do so i can optimize for provident but in the end 12% over 5 rounds (which is lost if you miss) just doesn't out way the benefit of reloading 1/2 as often or using a talent that just adds strait up 10% damage to every shot. The factors involved in making provident worth while don't make it compelling even under the best cases. Things like intense and toxic should be almost 100% effects if its going to be restricted to a single round in the clip. Or maybe leave the chance to proc at 25% but instead of that one bullet you proc free fire rounds for 10 sec or the whole clip is fire rounds or something in that vein. I'm not good enough at math to give real numbers here but if ithe best possible chance i have to proc intense is in a 5 round mag and its 25% chance on only one round then my probability of procing it at all is already dismally low. Then add to that the chance of missing that first shot which would to negate that chance all together. Then if it does proc i get what, something in the neighborhood of 30k damage over more time than it will take me to down the mob most probably. There is simply no way that will ever be better or even close to on par with almost any other damage talent and this could be said about all the talents that operate like this. Now by no means am i saying something like intense should be top tier, but when it rolls on your weapon its presence shouldn't be a reason you consider trashing the weapon.

Cobra-1322
10-30-2016, 10:38 PM
I have both Stability and Accuracy unlocked on my AlphaBridge build using ARs. Neither of the bonuses for these talents are translating to improved stability or accuracy on my character screen. I have not seen this listed on the known issues page and am wondering if anyone else has noticed this issue?

my biggest complaint also!!

Pyknospex
10-30-2016, 11:08 PM
should read I bought The division and wanted PvP to be exactly like Destiny

There are worse PvP ideas to emulate. The Division's, for instance.

getgcs
10-31-2016, 12:30 AM
Cnt play Delta error C 1 191

Lilbudy12
10-31-2016, 02:40 AM
Hate update 1.4!
Part of the hype about update 1.4 was that it would allow players like myself who prefer to play alone have a better experience: it sucks. I spent a couple of hours in the underground getting my behind handed to me playing mission after mission on hard and NORMAL. What’s all that about? It was not that way before the update.
The gear drops are better now but the game is glitchy as hell. I have had more crashes and problems with movement since the update. Not worth it!
I get that the Devs planned the end game for this game is playing PVP in the Dark Zone but really? Getting great gear is amazing but what is the point if I have to spend 4 or 5 hours reconfiguring my gear to make it anywhere near the stats I had before the update.

I am regretting building a new computer specifically to play this game.

Gerard_Rocks
10-31-2016, 09:19 AM
Most guns are better balanced in their class, though SMGs are too weak. I think they should have better damage but harder to control, so they're only effective up close.

I think guns with smaller mags should always have better burst damage but get overtaken for sustained damage by bigger mag guns. High rate of fire guns should be a bit harder to control and lower rate guns should be pretty steady.

Falcon_2812
10-31-2016, 10:02 AM
I did try maximum about 50% of the guns only. What am I supposed on selecting at the others I didn't have a chance to try? I'm lacking most of the named ones and believe it or not, I did not get a single G36 or M44 dropped yet. I may have had some others dropped, but they had talents I was not looking for and comparison is only fair with somewhat compareable talents. So yeah, until a "have not tried" option is available I fear I can't honestly take part in the survey because until I got all the guns with compareable talents, and in addition have testet them thoroughly, the next 3 Patches have probably been deployed already.

Judgementizator
10-31-2016, 02:43 PM
Even with gun balancing for both PvE and PvP that I still find once people realize what is good for both just roll that gun or farm to get that gun with god rolls. I am already seeing people using LMG's over anything else in PvE as primary weapon but use AR when don't have one. I tried AR when patch 1.4 came out and it was fun to use but until use my LMG with right setup just blew using AR anymore mean dps from LMG's is just so high that no AR can manage. I mean almost destroy armor from mobs faster with LMG over AR's even with Enemy armor bonus on AR still feel LMG's remove it faster which honestly doesn't make sense. I tried my MK-17 AR which one I have has about 34% enemy armor damage and M249B LMG. The M249B remove armor faster than MK-17 because of rate of fire and huge magazine size. Don't get me wrong but it is nice that LMG are in good place right now as they should be for being heavy machine gun.

It just feels like always once people just finding or realizing which gun type is better that all going to see in game in PvE and PVP so the diversity of guns is good right now but that going to change again to just one gun type that all people go after. Like other people said some of guns no even make sense right now cause do so little dps like Double-sawed off shotgun or and Magnum and few other guns also like ACR in AR's, few others.

To me and my opinion is that be same as always that certain guns just be looked at over all other guns in the game cause they do excellent dps and damage awhile other just lack luster.

Hugo-FOU
10-31-2016, 04:10 PM
Perhaps it's too radical, but on the next pass of balancing, it could be interesting to mix the way weapons deal damage. For example, it's never made sense to me that the MP7 has Crit Damage. Real world the MP7 uses a 4.5mm high velocity armor piercing round, so surely it should do Enemy Armor Damage, like ARs. Likewise, the AK47 uses a 7.62 round. This should have higher base damage but less Enemy Armor Damage.

It would be nice to see ARs that are lower on damage, be more stable, so you can mod for damage and vice versa.

kazin1979
11-01-2016, 10:44 PM
- Weight weapons/armour pieces to drop from certain enemy types/missions/areas so we can target what we want.
- Lower the drop ratio for 229. This works fine if we can target our farms like above, this is how an rpg works.
- SMG's need to be firing faster than AR's so they're more viable to switch too close range for that burst dmg.
- There has to be a legendary tier of loot that drops rarely. Not game breaking stuff, just unique with unique talents. Should include some appearance tems/skins in this tier too.
- Bring back Heroic, the game is pathetically easy. We need a harder mode that drops some weps/gear/appearance items not available in lower difficulties. Those items shouldn't automatically overshadow lower difficulty level weps/gear, just something that makes doing Heroic worthwhile.
- Named weapons are so poor for the most part. Make them more unique, a legendary rainbow coloured drop. Keep them at 229, power creeping is not the way.
- Have the potential for rare enemy spawns within missions that either have unique items or a higher drop% on legendary class drops.
- Random events on the world map should be implemented.
- The Underground needs weps/gear that can't be obtained elsewhere, why did I buy this DLC!?? There is zero reason to go there anymore. I miss the challenging, tactical coop of 1.3. Even though I understand time to kill and enemy dmg was too high, there still needs to be a level of fear and trepidation, made for some very memorable firefights which now no longer exist in the game.

- Sounds bugs galore, still.
- Enemy AI is very frustrating, I spend most of my time RUNNING after the enemy, its so annoying. This doesn't make the game harder, or the foes more challenging. 1.3 AI was better, sad but true.

I like what you've done with 1.4, its a step in the right direction. There has to be a harder difficulty with rewards not available outside of this though, its so, so, so easy now.

The weapons feel much more balanced, many with pros and cons. I'm enjoying the AR's alot, Smg's feel like they need a small buff, nothing major. Snipers are obsolete due to the games difficulty being so low, without tougher and harder hitting foes they serve no purpose.

ReSiDeNt_E_1974
11-05-2016, 08:20 PM
Well - as a **classic** player i wanna play the strongest weapons in a game - so some Weapon-Nerfs are pretty bad:

X45 --> Nerf too high (i feel forced to use M9)

M1A --> Nerf is too big (i feel forced to use M44 which makes more than the double of damage than M1A - what a foolish nerf of the M1A)

Magazins and **Rate Of Fire** --> Nerfs are incomprehensible (i miss 30,3% Rate Of Fire on a MG, AR or Pistol)

Colt 1911 (for example) is a great pistol and finally we got a **golden Small Laserpointer** --> but the rate of fire of this pistol is too low and the nerf of the rate of fire via magazines makes this weapon not useable for me - in fact i carry a pistol because of it's gearscore.

So - golden small laserpointer --> garbage for me (and it don't fit via M9).


By the way - even i know that the **Named Weapons** will be revised / remastered - currently the named weapons (because of the talents) are garbage and they are not worth to buy.


In terms of the weapons i feel forced to use a few of them / i feel confined (i know these words are hard - but this is what i think).


Weapon-Talents - there are too many of them ( to say it simple).