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dazza9806482
06-04-2004, 04:51 AM
This may be obvious but i have heard a 'spiral climb' mentioned in the context of E retention.

What exactly is a spiral climb? rolling whilst climbing? How do i use this technique?

thanks guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dazza9806482
06-04-2004, 04:51 AM
This may be obvious but i have heard a 'spiral climb' mentioned in the context of E retention.

What exactly is a spiral climb? rolling whilst climbing? How do i use this technique?

thanks guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

609IAP_Recon
06-04-2004, 05:28 AM
bank slightly in one direction with the nose slightly up- you'll slowly "spiral" climb into the sky.

works best with an aircraft like the 109 which has excellent climbing ability. keep your speed around 270-280

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg

dazza9806482
06-04-2004, 05:51 AM
Ah

thanks recon

i had some weird ideas about it, glad its so simple

s!

Fehler
06-04-2004, 06:08 AM
The whole purpose of the spiral climb (Described properly by Recon) is to take a superior climbing aircraft like the 109 for example and slowly climb in circles to do the following:

1. To gain altitude that you can use later to develop energy.

2. To cause a pursuer with inferior climb that has committed to the chase to follow you up and bleed his energy while you maintain a path inside his bullet path. (This makes him bleed even more energy if he tries to pull his nose to a lead shot on your plane - thus creating even more separation for you)

This move should only be done if you are absolutely sure you can maintain a climb at an angle and bank that the pursuit plane cannot. If the pursuit plane starts to turn inside of you and climb at a steeper angle and bank, he will eventually get a good lead shot off on you, so you will need to re-evaluate your energy state versus his, and your aircraft's strength versus his, and do something else.

Done properly, your pursuit plane will burn off his energy before you burn off yours. He will then be forced to either try and dive away or extend linearly. (SP?)

In either case, you can use your altitude advantage to create and energy advantage and dive on him for an attack (Reversal) or level out and extend away in a shallow linear climb until you create enough separation that you are comfortable with.

Against some planes, this may take several thousand kilometers to create the proper comfort zone of separation, so patience is truly a virtue of this technique.

P.S. Dont try this at near equal energy states against a Spit 9, P63, P39 or La7 as they will use their superior turn rates and initial acceleration to catch you fast! You can, however use their overconfidence in these attributes against them if you start with a superior energy state, but it may take you 5-10 minutes of climbing to generate the necessary separation for an attack or escape. Some pilots will fall for it, most will not. It is also not recommended in a FW190 as your climb abilities do not outweigh the energy bleed you will encounter at a steep bank, especially if you are not 100% capable in the butcher bird.

Some people will call this the "Rope-a-dope" move, but it's really a spiral climb into an attack reversal.

COnversely, remember this... Dont try a high altitude spiral dive while in pursuit of a P-51! They will dive faster than you and turn inside your turn and eventually be able to generate their spiral dive into a better zoom climb, thus reversing your initial energy advantage! (A lesson I have all to harshly learned while flying against GR142Astro and JimmyGiro... the bastages!) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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dazza9806482
06-04-2004, 06:17 AM
Thanks Fehler.

the depth of knowledge and analysis on this forum amazes me!

always glad to hear the reason behind the method

jurinko
06-04-2004, 06:34 AM
check this track: I started with E advantage over the Yak in P-38, he decided to follow me after my first pass, I climbed and turned in the same time, then helped myself with flaps, he could not follow me, then I rolled over, dived on him and - missed... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
never start climbing turn against enemy with superior E advantage or too small separation.

Ah, the track:

http://scitech.sk/~jurinko/P38vsJak3Ki84.ntrk

---------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

F19_Ob
06-04-2004, 08:05 AM
The spiralclimb away from an enemy described by fehler is very effective when done right (takes some practice). The turning forces the pursuing enemy to a highangle deflectionshot.
But remeber also that an experienced flyer can sacrifice his speed to get a snapshot at u before u are out of range, (and some need only one shot). So dont give up on this maneuver if u are shot down a few(many)times in the beginning, and remember also to record the session so u can review it later and see where u went wrong (or right).

georgeo76
06-04-2004, 09:25 AM
Spiral climbs are defensive maneuvers. Whether or not to spiral climb is a grave decision.

Don't focus on reversals. Extension is simpler and safer.

Zen--
06-04-2004, 09:30 AM
Well said Fehler, very nicely put. I would add that a Ta152 can successfully out spiral climb most opponents especially at low speed and high angle of bank. In this area it peforms much better than other 190's because of it's high climb rate and improved turning ability.

Side note...did you really mean several thousand kilometers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Georgio, I consider the spiral climb an offensive manuever myself, sort of like advancing to the rear if you will. If flown properly it can shift your E state and allow you to begin offensive moves against the attacker, this is my intent when using it. Miminize the attackers advantage and then turn the tables on him, so it's hard to say where the line between defensive move and offensive move is. The spiral climb can be a very effective way to transition to the offense (sometimes the only way actually) and to me is the first step in victory, therefore I consider the decision to use it as an offensive move, if that makes sense.

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-Zen-

Fehler
06-04-2004, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
Side note...did you really mean several thousand kilometers
-Zen-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, several thousand depending on the other guy and his plane type. I mean, if you are in say a G-2 and the other guy is in a I-16, it may only take 500 meters. But patience is a must for this move.

Oh, and I totally agree with you as an offensive move. As a matter of fact, there are no defensive moves. Only moves that put you back into a state where you can attack! I think it was Hartmann that said he never thought defensively, his only thoughts were to calculate his next attack. I like that philosophy! I think Hartmann was Klingon!

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DrDave242
06-04-2004, 01:11 PM
I still think you meant either "several thousand meters" or "several kilometers." Several thousand kilometers is an awfully long way to spiral climb.

---
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.

HL callsign: FruitPieJones
Today is a good day for pie.

IL2-chuter
06-04-2004, 01:26 PM
I'm gonna have to give that "several thousand kilometers" thing a whirl. Maybe you get to another map or something . . .



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Covino
06-04-2004, 02:22 PM
Another reason to spiral climb, that I don't think anyone metioned yet, is that it allows you to easily see your pursuer at your rear quarter (if you can't, add some rudder). You can watch their every move and once you think you've got enough separation or he breaks off, you can dive down on him and claim your prey.

Fehler
06-04-2004, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrDave242:
I still think you meant either "several thousand meters" or "several kilometers." Several thousand kilometers is an awfully long way to spiral climb.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, I just caught that, sorry.. Yes I meant several thousand meters or several kilometers.. ROFL..

Take em to Neptune, then you can get a shot off on them! ROFLMAO

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