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View Full Version : For you MUZZLE FLASH whiners...



XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 06:43 AM
I was watching the show on the Il-2, and they showed a clip of a a couple of them strafing... The muzzle flashes are HUGE, even bigger than they are on the IL-2's in game!

BUT, I've seen a A6M Zero shoot its MG and 20mm cannons in person and they aren't big at all...

So, I don't know what's accurate =)

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 06:43 AM
I was watching the show on the Il-2, and they showed a clip of a a couple of them strafing... The muzzle flashes are HUGE, even bigger than they are on the IL-2's in game!

BUT, I've seen a A6M Zero shoot its MG and 20mm cannons in person and they aren't big at all...

So, I don't know what's accurate =)

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 07:09 AM
I read somehwhere...or somebody here informed me, that film picks up more light (IR) than would be otherwise visible to the naked eye, so you get larger muzzel flashes on camera.

Really, all you see with the naked eye is a puff of smoke during the day, even with the biggest guns. Perhaps some flash as well, but nothing close to IL2/FB.

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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 07:35 AM
Having shot assault rifles (ak47) and 7.62 machineguns pretty much I can say at least small MGs are overdone in FB as far as muzzle flashes are concerned.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 08:08 AM
at least at daylight. At night there's another story.

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 08:17 AM
KIMURA wrote:
- at least at daylight. At night there's another
- story.

And since the gun obviously don't know what time of day it is, it's a contrast problem rather than a size problem. At night, the contrast between even the more mellow outer parts of the flash and the black void is still huge, so you can see it, while at daylight only the brightest core of the flash is significantly brighter than the surrounding and thus visible. Much like you can only see the sun's corona during an eclipse, even though it's obviously always there.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 09:16 AM
TurboPorsas wrote:
- Having shot assault rifles (ak47) and 7.62
- machineguns pretty much I can say at least small MGs
- are overdone in FB as far as muzzle flashes are
- concerned.

In the competing muzzle flash thread, a few people pointed out, that WWII ammo wasn't up to modern standards. So the flashes would be bigger, and more smoke would be produced than with present day ammo.

cheers/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 10:02 AM
Stormer777 wrote:
- I was watching the show on the Il-2, and they showed
- a clip of a a couple of them strafing... The muzzle
- flashes are HUGE, even bigger than they are on the
- IL-2's in game!
-
- BUT, I've seen a A6M Zero shoot its MG and 20mm
- cannons in person and they aren't big at all...
-- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

At "virtualpilots.fi" u can find great stuff including finnish pilotstories. In an interview one " virtual" pilot
asked a Finnish ace about the muzzle flash on the bf 109 and the reply was= no flash just smokepuffs.(this is how i remember it . It was some time since ive read it)

But why not check it out?

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/feature/photoreports/


http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 10:12 AM
Slush69 wrote:
- In the competing muzzle flash thread, a few people
- pointed out, that WWII ammo wasn't up to modern
- standards. So the flashes would be bigger, and more
- smoke would be produced than with present day ammo.

Such an odd claim needs good evidence to back it up. All the evidence I'm aware of suggests muzzle flashes were almost invisible in daylight.

I think we got lumbered with an arcade-mode special effect.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 10:12 AM
Some 109 aces are reported as saying that even in
daylight the muzzle flash was an issue.

I've only ever fired blanks, but that was with
blank ammunition manufactured during the Korean
war. During the day - no visible flash.

At night -
sometimes it would be ok - one time I was so blinded
by the flash I had to sit down as I couldn't see
at all (plus the report had deafened me). In this
instance we were about 10 miles from the nearest
town and it was a very dark night.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 10:20 AM
I've fired the M240 (FN MAG) machine gun which is 7.62x51mm NATO, there is little muzzle flash, even when firing on full auto. However, when looking at a video of the shooting, there is some slight flash that the camera picked up but to the naked eye you can't see any flash.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 10:24 AM
I do alot of shooting and never notice the flash even on large caliber rifles however at nite yes you can see a flash (even a small flame) but thats no suprise it's dark /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

Anyway think back to all the latest war video (Iraq mkII)and you will see not much muzzle flash even on a monster like the A10 warthog.(if any aircraft mounted gun was going to make a flash it's the a10)

No1RAAF_Pourshot

XO No1RAAF

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/smash.gif

Were's the Anykey

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 10:43 AM
RocketDog wrote:

- Such an odd claim needs good evidence to back it up.
- All the evidence I'm aware of suggests muzzle
- flashes were almost invisible in daylight.
-
- I think we got lumbered with an arcade-mode special
- effect.

Well, both claims need evidence to back them up really. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
I can't say that I fired WWII ammo, but I do think it's true that most German ammo for instance was cordite, that does produce more visible flashes.

cheers/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

Message Edited on 07/25/0311:44AM by Slush69

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 10:53 AM
I've done a lot of shooting with .303 SMLE's (Mks 3, 4 & 5) using WW2 British ammo & post-war Indian/Pakistani made rounds loaded with cordite.

They make quite a flash at night but nothing noticable during the day, either from behind the rifle or off to one side.

"Six pints of bitter. And quickly please, the world's about to end."

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 11:09 AM
So what? It's a game. Play it.

112th Scavenger Squadron

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 12:14 PM
"So what? It's a game. Play it2

yes it is only a game. I was trying to "recruit" some new players to game ,i even made a nice speak about how amazing game IL is.But after i showe them some Screenshots the first comment was :WoW those muzzle flashes are huge look really arcade /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

So the most realistic flightsimulator looks like arcade game ????

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 01:34 PM
pourshot wrote:

- I do alot of shooting and never notice the flash
- even on large caliber rifles however at nite yes you
- can see a flash (even a small flame) but thats no
- suprise it's dark
-
- Anyway think back to all the latest war video (Iraq
- mkII)and you will see not much muzzle flash even on
- a monster like the A10 warthog.(if any aircraft
- mounted gun was going to make a flash it's the a10)


It is purely relative ....

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/k04000/k04549.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 03:51 PM
I have a bunch of wwii videos that show bf110s jui88s me262s p40s p51 jugs a20s b25js shooting and even at night ju88 and bf110 muzzle flashs are small compaired to FB, in daylight they look even smaller. Less then 3/4ths of what they are in FB at night they look half of what they are in fb


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:08 PM
Even big muzzle flashes have an *extremely* short duration, and therefore don't block your field of view to any real extent, unlike in IL-2, where you get a big, fat, slow flame coming out of the guns, and you can't see a thing.

OVERDONE.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:20 PM
Slush69 wrote:
- In the competing muzzle flash thread, a few people
- pointed out, that WWII ammo wasn't up to modern
- standards. So the flashes would be bigger, and more
- smoke would be produced than with present day ammo.
-
- cheers/slush


Those people are wrong. I've fired literally thousands of rounds of 50+ year old ammo, most of it 7.92x57 Mauser. The difference in flash between the old stuff and brand new factory ammo is indistinguishable, because the flash isn't visible either way.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:33 PM
I have fired .50 and .30 and they don't make a flash like that. I have fired World War II ammo in quantity (back in the fifties you could buy it surplus for incredibly cheap) in both .30 and .303 and it was totally indistinguishable, in terms of flash or smoke or anything else, from modern commercial products.

I have also been on the receiving end of various sorts of gunfire and can attest that even when they're shooting at or over you, the muzzle flash doesn't look like that. It's not even that big in the dark, though when it's aimed in your general direction it tends to look bigger than it is.

It's not just the size, it's the color and the whole way it appears. I saw a man shoot a cop twice at point-blank range in front of my place in Baltimore one night in the sixties. The muzzle flash lit up the front of the cop's uniform; you could see it reflect off his badge for a second there. But it wasn't a garish orange; it looked more like a photo flash. And there was no tongue of flame coming from the muzzle of the gun, just a little brief sort of spark. That was a .38, not in a class with even a rifle-caliber MG, but the same optical principles apply.

The tracers are also wrong. That's not what they look like at all. But if they looked like the real thing, people wouldn't believe it because the real thing looks phony as hell. (They seem to move very, very slowly, to float through the air. I don't know why but they do. Even when they're going by a few feet away.)

You can't tell anything from film. Photography doesn't accurately record that sort of thing. At least not with the cinema technology they had during WWII. Notice, for example, how phony the cigarette smoke looks in any film from that period.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:33 PM
As pointed out in the other thread, the argument about the propellants seems only partly viable.

Main factors contributing to muzzle flash are propellant type for one, and yes British ww2 ammo used cordite based propellants which cause a greater muzzleflash than german nitrocellulose based (small arms and 20/30mm cannons) or diglycol based (larger cannon) propellants.

Second main factor is tolerances in the production of the gun and ammo, which historically were rather tight for german equipment (the fabled german engineering that is however more prone to jamming/duds under adverse environments - say russian winter http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). Soviet equipment was built with much greater tolerances allowing for easier mass production and very good reliability - i`m talking weapons not planes themselves - but in turn more energy was lost in the form of burning propellant outside the gun or the exploding gas mixture leaking out of open bolts etc.

Third main factor would be barrel length and flash suppressor muzzle prongs (which german MG certainly had). MG131/81/17 were rather long weapons calibres per barrel length wise, and the MG151 is not a short weapon either. ShVak and Hispano II were also rather long, but Mk108 or B-20 were short and should have larger flashes.

Given the firsthand experience on MGs from many here, AT LEAST in daylight muzzle flashes on small arms using modern type propellant should be much less obstructing, that is for sure. Such modern propellants were pioneered by the germans in WW2- sooo.... this would go for german 20mm cannon, too.

As for the strong indication of bigger guns` muzzle flashes beeing smaller and less obstructing, we ahain have anectotal evidence the effect would be less pronounced at least in daylight.

As someone said, finding the right muzzle flash sizes/obstruction of view characteristics is quite a project, but i began digging after it. And I`m hoping to be able to produce conclusive evidence either me or FB is wrong. So far, it looks like FB is wrong.

Does anyone have links to what Oleg/1C contributed to the discussion ?

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:39 PM
Go here and checkout all SMG and what not and see for your selves. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Good site.

http://www.gulfcoastarmory.com/mgvids.html

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 04:42 PM
Here`s a citation from "Rapid Fire" by Tony Williams, acknowledged fighter gun buff. Note it suggests at least early smokeless powders beeing used by all nations involved.

I`m trying to get more out of Tony...

This is from 'Rapid Fire':

"The earliest machine gun cartridges were designed to use black powder (gunpowder) as a propellant. This is a simple mixture of saltpetre, sulphur and charcoal, and has been used for centuries. It is not ideal as a propellant, however, because of its inefficient burning characteristics and the large quantities of smoke and other residues generated.

Improvements in chemical science in the late nineteenth century led to the development of smokeless powders, the first of these entering service in France in the late 1880s. Other nations soon followed suit, with the British version being known as "cordite" because it was extruded in fine strings resembling cords, which were bundled together for insertion into the cartridge case.

There are three different types of smokeless propellant, known as single-base, double-base and triple-base. All are based on nitro-cellulose with nitro-glycerine (or equivalent) and nitro-guanidine as other major components in the more complex versions, triple-base including all three. Cordite is a double-base type.

The increasing complexity of the propellants is due to the constant search for the ideal combination of characteristics. These include maximum power for a high muzzle velocity, moderate pressure and temperature to minimise the stresses and erosive effects on the gun, as little fouling and corrosion as possible, and a minimum of smoke and flash at the muzzle. Many of these desiderata are mutually exclusive so each propellant is a compromise. As with other chemical ammunition components propellants must be insensitive to rough treatment, provide consistent performance over a wide range of climatic environments and be tolerant of storage for long periods in poor conditions.

The performance of a given cartridge depends upon the maximum pressure which the gun is designed to accept. Pistols and shotguns, for example, are usually only intended to work at relatively low pressures while rifles, machine guns and cannon are generally much stronger, so cartridges for them can be loaded to higher pressures and therefore velocities. Not all guns are the same, however, and some can take much higher pressures than others. This is usually determined by the strength of the mechanism which locks the bolt or breechblock to the breech at the instant of firing, as will be discussed in the next chapter.

Propellants today are generally prepared in the form of grains or small pellets. The precise chemical composition, and the size and shape of the grains, will vary from one cartridge to another in order to provide the power and pressure characteristics suited to the gun."

British aircraft ammunition in WW2 was available with both cordite and 'nitro' loadings (the latter being recognisable by the letter 'z' added to the ammo code on the headstamp)."

Also have a look at Tony`s excellent website at http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 06:23 PM
TurboPorsas wrote:
- Having shot assault rifles (ak47) and 7.62
- machineguns pretty much I can say at least small MGs
- are overdone in FB as far as muzzle flashes are
- concerned.
-

Unlike airplanes, modern AKMs and other assault rifles have flash supressors at the end of them (hey I learned something at Benning after all!), but I do think the muzzle flash in the game is way too big...

-Tom
(Former 11Bravo, 10th MTN (LI) "Climb to Glory!")

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 06:23 PM
SCNR: http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=8D83DF93-0FBD-4A72-BD76-9F3AF1B35B6A

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 08:50 PM
All that needs to be seen is the photo in the other muzzle flash thread (muzzle flashes are a joke). The photo shows an Emil's 20mm cannons being harmonized and there is no huge flame coming out of them, only smoke is visable. What more proof or research is needed?

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 09:00 PM
I have shot with a 7.62mm rifle at nights during my time in the Army and i can tell you guys for sure that even in a dark forrest at night, you can't see a large muzzle flash. Maybe a very short flash but it doesn't blind ya. But we used a little thing we called "The muzzle flash dimmer". It has a little thread and you can screw it onto the rifle. It has 3 oval holes. I never shot without it but i've read that they used similar ones in planes as well for the same reason. YOu can see them pretty good on old P-38 pictures.

XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 12:00 AM
All very interesting guys, but is it going to be addressed in the patch?

http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~wingman/pics/g50bis_2.jpg

caccia buon!

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XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 12:40 AM
No! It never will be fixed in FB.

XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 02:05 AM
Tommel6 wrote:
-
-
- Unlike airplanes, modern AKMs and other assault
- rifles have flash supressors at the end of them (hey
- I learned something at Benning after all!), but I do
- think the muzzle flash in the game is way too big...
-
-

What is that 'funnel shape' for, on the end of the Mg17's for? The MGFF also had this end on the muzzle, as did the MG131.

It was my understanding this was a flash suppressor.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 02:10 AM
I have seen a pic of an B-20 or an A-20 firing off 8 nose mounted .50 cal and 6 wing mounted .50 cal at night. MY GOD!!!! I wish I saved that pic. The muzzle flashes extended 3 feel from the berral. That was at night. You dont see them hardly at all in the day. Like watching grag races at night. In the day, you dont see much but the odd pop of fire, but at night! They look like they strapped 8 flame throwrs on the back!!!

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 04:07 AM
If i remember correctly from the IL2 days.

The problem is the shooting graphic is the shooting graphic. Game doesn't change graphics due to time. So the options are no muzzle flash at all (day or night), or have it.

I choose to have it. Just wish it was a bit smaller.

Cess-Lorak

http://www.cess-patrol.com/images/CPlink.gif (http://www.Cess-Patrol.com)
Cess-Patrol: Where the flying really stinks!



Message Edited on 07/25/0311:07PM by Lorak

XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 07:15 AM
It doesnt bother me, I've never seen them shoot in real life so I wouldnt know one way or another, I just know that no Russian wants to be on the other end of my muzzle flash on my German Campaign.

XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 08:08 AM
I find it is a problem /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

The 7.92mm LW MG's like on the E-4 ~ G-2 are not so bad. The MG151 on the F-2 is not so bad either.

However, the MK108 on the Me-262 is just way OTT as is the MK-108 on the Gustavs and Kurfurst. Not so bad if you fly cockpit-off, but I don't so it is an issue.

I remember reading about a (finnish?) Bf109 pilot who actually got to take a look at IL-2 - according to the source he laughed at loud when he saw the muzzle flashes from inside the cockpit /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


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XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 08:23 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Tommel6 wrote:
--
--
-- Unlike airplanes, modern AKMs and other assault
-- rifles have flash supressors at the end of them (hey
-- I learned something at Benning after all!), but I do
-- think the muzzle flash in the game is way too big...
--
--
-
- What is that 'funnel shape' for, on the end of the
- Mg17's for? The MGFF also had this end on the
- muzzle, as did the MG131.
-
- It was my understanding this was a flash suppressor

Correct also it directs some of the gases backwards to reduce the recoil.Have a look at some of the .50 cal snipper rifles the muzle brake is huge but without it shooting would be painfull,on the other hand it kicks up alot of dust giving your position away( not to big a prob at 1000m /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

No1RAAF_Pourshot

XO No1RAAF

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/smash.gif

Were's the Anykey



Message Edited on 07/26/0306:47PM by pourshot

XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 12:44 PM
Note also that flying at 500kph would greatly reduce any visible flash in daylight.

XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 02:05 PM
The Virtualpilots asked from one of the finnish 109 aces, that did you see muzzle flash in cockpit. Answer was simply that you couldn't see it. Maybe at night. If I recall correctly that they discussed about that IL-2 (the game) had too much Hollywood in flashes.

How many of you LW pilots hate these muzzle flashes? I do. They block view perfectly.

XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 05:36 PM
- What is that 'funnel shape' for, on the end of the
- Mg17's for? The MGFF also had this end on the
- muzzle, as did the MG131.
-
- It was my understanding this was a flash suppressor.


Germany likes their guns to be loud.

XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 10:23 PM
Umm btw the propellor hub assembly for MG 151 / Mk 108 ³n 109s is longer than the barrel itself, which should further reduce any present muzzle flash from the gun.

No time for digging up more today, weekend daddy on duty !

XyZspineZyX
07-26-2003, 11:27 PM
Blackhawk_Pilot wrote:
-
- Germany likes their guns to be loud.
-
-

So did the British then./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Check out the 2pdr pom-poms. Or the 40mm Bofors.

http://www.deepimage.co.uk/expeditions/operation_tunnel/limbourne_images/l-archivepompom-whitefilmst.jpg


Notice the text > 'flash hider'

http://www.geocities.com/bb59ussmassachusetts/40mm-4-Mk2Mnt_1_.jpg


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 03:59 AM
Just a little punt.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 06:38 AM
I love this game but R E A L L Y hate those muzzle flashes. Please get rid of them or make them an option.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 08:04 AM
Yeah, they are an irritation to mee to. But I don't suppose anything can be done about them with the current graphics engine. The flashes need to be hardly noticeable in daylight and bigger and brighter at night. Which FB's engine can't do.