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View Full Version : Orochi doesn't need nerf ,you need learn to play CHECK HERE



N1GTHCR0W
10-15-2016, 12:44 AM
look at this viking ,he doesn't know how to play ,raider is the most powerful on the info graphic ,but the guy has killed so easily
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjAuesz0vOw hope you enjoy

Fatal-Feit
10-15-2016, 02:51 AM
If I had a nickel for every time somebody uses the ''YOU just need to learn how to play.'' excuse... At what point does our opinion become valid? If we're too good, then people say ''If you're good against the Orochi, then they aren't OP.'' If you suck, then people say ''Git gud.'' :p Also, the results from the lasted closed alpha doesn't really mean anything in terms of actual balancing of mechanics and such. The results are too broad to say x character is the most powerful, simply because they have more victories. The Raider is just decent in the metagame, as they don't have a lot going for them, but they are pretty easy to pick up and play.

Anyways, I'm not close to being one of the top players in this game, but I've been playtesting the game for nearly a year longer than the recent alpha, 13th place in duel mode in the last alpha with 97% wins on PC--nearly flawless on PS4, and if that means anything to you then here are my thoughts:

The Orochi isn't impossible to defeat, but they sure as hell are broken. I don't want to beat a dead horse by ranting about Deflect and Storm Rush again, so I'll just say this.

I apologize if this offends the players of the video above and come off snobby and condescending, but...THIS IS SOMETHING YOU WON'T KNOW FROM NEWBIE GAMEPLAY. REPEAT, THIS IS SOMETHING YOU WON'T UNDERSTAND UNLESS YOU'RE ONE OF THE BETTER, MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE AND COMPETITIVE PLAYERS.

It's only in the metagame, where you're facing players almost equally as skilled and knowledgeable with all of the skill sets and tricks, that you can really come to grips with the flaws and imbalances of the game--to which there is A LOT, admittedly.

Dez_troi_aR
10-15-2016, 03:03 AM
If I had a nickel for every time somebody uses the ''YOU just need to learn how to play.'' excuse... At what point does our opinion become valid? If we're too good, then people say ''If you're good against the Orochi, then they aren't OP.'' If you suck, then people say ''Git gud.'' :p Also, the results from the lasted closed alpha doesn't really mean anything in terms of actual balancing of mechanics and such. The results are too broad to say x character is the most powerful, simply because they have more victories. The Raider is just decent in the metagame, as they don't have a lot going for them, but they are pretty easy to pick up and play.

Anyways, I'm not close to being one of the top players in this game, but I've been playtesting the game for nearly a year longer than the recent alpha, 13th place in duel mode in the last alpha with 97% wins on PC--nearly flawless on PS4, and if that means anything to you then here are my thoughts:

The Orochi isn't impossible to defeat, but they sure as hell are broken. I don't want to beat a dead horse by ranting about Deflect and Storm Rush again, so I'll just say this.

I apologize if this offends the players of the video above and come off snobby and condescending, but...THIS IS SOMETHING YOU WON'T KNOW FROM NEWBIE GAMEPLAY. REPEAT, THIS IS SOMETHING YOU WON'T UNDERSTAND UNLESS YOU'RE ONE OF THE BETTER, MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE AND COMPETITIVE PLAYERS.

It's only in the metagame, where you're facing players almost equally as skilled and knowledgeable with all of the skill sets and tricks, that you can really come to grips with the flaws and imbalances of the game--to which there is A LOT, admittedly.

Could you go more into detail, Fatal ?
I never saw feedback from an experienced top-player, only the average comments. I'd like to hear yours.

Fatal-Feit
10-15-2016, 03:40 AM
Could you go more into detail, Fatal ?
I never saw feedback from an experienced top-player, only the average comments. I'd like to hear yours.

Sure thing.

To start off with the Raider, just like the other Vanguards, they don't have a skill set that can be considered broken and unfair. Underwhelming, if anything. Their most notable abilities are the Guardbreak -> wall stun combo and their unblockable attack. Unless you play the Berserker, Guardbreak isn't really reliable, nor easy to pull off since most veterans have their Guardbreak counter timing down. It's also easy to punish players spamming Guardbreak. Their unblockable attack may be powerful and, ahem, unblockable, but it's simply loses its advantages once the enemies nail down their dodge/parry timing for it. This isn't to say that they're weak, a very good player knows that feinting is the Raider's best asset, but I digress.

As for the Orochi, I don't want to beat a dead horse so I won't go too much into details and I'll just repeat one point I wrote to a comment on YouTube.

Deflect and Storm Rush (coupled with their speed and Zephyr Slash) is so fundamentally broken that the Orochi is a better tank than the Conqueror! :p Deflect is so easy to execute, it can be done by accident, giving your opponent very few options on the offensive, and because it's external, the Orochi is even great at 2-3v1 battles. Storm Rush is the ultimate, most abusive attack in the game. Not only is it a damn quick dodging maneuver, it deals a hefty amount of damage to your opponent and when you combine it with an up combo, you can nearly half the Raider's health in seconds with minimal effort. And because it sacrifices so little stamina, the Orochi, just like the video in the OP, can simply spam it all day long. Comparatively, the Raider's unblockable is slow, requires them to sacrifice half of their stamina, and it can be avoided or parried. The Kensei's unblockable requires a chain 3 combo, and can also be easily dodge or parried. I know you can parry Storm Rush, but its timing is the most difficult for me, and you can't parry it when it's used as a counter attack.

The only way to stand against a good Orochi is to be on the defensive and wait for them to make the first move. Otherwise, you might as well just stand there and give them free hits. Yeah, the Orochi is so broken that YOU have to be on the defensive. The Orochi is an Assassin hero, which means being on the offensive is exactly the position they want to be in, with their speed and damage. Unless you're playing a Berserker and abusing walling or play a Conqueror and have a 15 minute match of who attacks first, you are ALWAYS at a disadvantage against an Orochi.

As for some of the other imbalances of the game...

1. Deflect is also broken for the Berserker, which makes them almost impossible to defeat near a wall or ledge.

2. There is no way to counter a Conqueror that corners you against a wall and repeats the shield bash -> attack combo.

waraidako
10-15-2016, 10:29 AM
Some people seem to think that as long as it's somehow POSSIBLE, at all, to defeat a class, then it's not OP. Apparently something is only overpowered if it's literally impossible to beat. The fact is that if you take a skilled, or unskilled player, and let them play every class we had available for the alpha, then they'd get the most kills for the least amount of effort with the orochi. Because it's simply easier to do well with than the others, due to it having more strengths than the others, and fewer weaknesses. And that's overpowered.

Dez_troi_aR
10-15-2016, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the answer fatal-feit!
Some of these problems seem to be pretty fundamental.

MathiasCB
10-16-2016, 12:59 PM
Atleast they're looking into deflect, so i guess we've got that part covered already. All thats left is storm rush, even if it were to use 100% more stamina, it wouldn't even be enough in my opinion.

PowerSenpai
10-17-2016, 11:05 AM
Atleast they're looking into deflect, so i guess we've got that part covered already. All thats left is storm rush, even if it were to use 100% more stamina, it wouldn't even be enough in my opinion.

100% refer to double of what it already is, so i agree that it is not enough, but i definitely think it is a matter of balancing it's stamina usage.

waraidako
10-17-2016, 12:18 PM
Even if it drained all stamina you'd still end up with a super quick move that does a ton of damage. The only difference is that it would be used as a finisher instead. They need to make it slower, so that people can see it coming, and block it. Do that and you can keep the 50% cost.

MathiasCB
10-17-2016, 02:00 PM
Fast would be fine as long as it's not as spammable. The damage from the storm rush itself is pretty fine, the damage issue comes with the two free lights you get after it... Slower might help people not used to the speed, but as long as it's spammable, it will continue to be an issue.

PowerSenpai
10-17-2016, 06:53 PM
Even if it drained all stamina you'd still end up with a super quick move that does a ton of damage. The only difference is that it would be used as a finisher instead. They need to make it slower, so that people can see it coming, and block it. Do that and you can keep the 50% cost.

It already is pretty easy to block in my opinion. Also, it is a counter attack move that is supposed to punish enemies for their mistakes, and take away a ton of health for giving such an opening, so i feel it's offensive use is it's only real problem right now.

Fatal-Feit
10-17-2016, 08:51 PM
I think 50% stamina reduction for Storm Rush is a good start, but stamina cost is just one of its problems.


It already is pretty easy to block in my opinion. Also, it is a counter attack move that is supposed to punish enemies for their mistakes, and take away a ton of health for giving such an opening, so i feel it's offensive use is it's only real problem right now.

The big issue is that it's too quick of a counterattack. You can literally counter anything with it. And that alone makes their defense more reliable than a Conqueror, because the Conqueror's counterattack is easier to avoid and it requires a wind up that also drains stamina (not to mention it's just one attack, not a combo starter). The move should be slowed down so that people who tries to come in with a light attack or something equally as quick can have enough time to block Storm Rush. Storm Rush should be a good counterattack against heavies, guard breaks, and the like, not everything.

As it is right now, the enemy's options are very, very limited and that shouldn't be the case. As a Warden, I can't even depend on Rushing Slash, my top light, or even my zone attack to outdo the Storm Rush and that speaks volume.

MathiasCB
10-18-2016, 02:11 PM
I'll just go ahead and drop Brandons twitch video again, which i've done before. It just sums up so well why Storm rush is way unbalanced at the moment.

''How spammable is storm rush you ask?'' (https://www.twitch.tv/handheldbrandon/v/94335235)

It's quick, no real stamina loss, great damage and way too spammable. I can't really find much of a risk spamming this move.

DerHerbman
10-27-2016, 10:41 PM
According to this chart the warriors are very well balanced:
http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/ForHonor/FH_CA_Hero_Winrates.jpg
http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/ForHonor/FH_CA_Hero_Winrates.jpg

waraidako
10-28-2016, 09:00 AM
Statistics can interpreted in many ways. To me, that chart doesn't say the warriors are well balanced. It says the people who played the alpha didn't know how to use them.

Notice how the Raider has a positive winrate against everyone, and equal against the Kensei. That's not because the Raider is so amazingly good. It's because people just didn't know how to counter the running grab, and got carried off and thrown off of the map. I know this, because it was one of the most common complaints on the alpha forums. It was right up there, after Orochi being OP.

And especially in duel mode, Raiders would just wait for them to come closer so they could do the running grab and toss them over the side, or into a hole, or into spikes, whatever was at hand. All statistics come with caveats you have to consider. You need to consider who these statistics represent, then you also need to consider that not all warriors were played equally. This was an alpha with mostly new players who were figuring out how to play on the fly, most people didn't unlock every character, and focused mainly on one or two, and most players weren't that good.

What they should do is release the statistics for the top 100 or top 1000 players during the alpha. Then we can start talking about balance.

DerHerbman
10-28-2016, 01:03 PM
Statistics can interpreted in many ways...

Hm... you made a good point there!

AFR0_DESPERADO
11-05-2016, 02:21 AM
It's too early to say anything about balancing *close thread*

Idaeus_III
11-05-2016, 05:26 PM
It's too early to say anything about balancing *close thread*

I disagree. The game is only a bit more than 3 months away(3 months, 9 days to be exact). That's really not that far off from now. If we were, say, a year or two out, then ok. But given how close we are to release, I'd like to imagine that now is the best time to talk about balance and optimization.

PowerSenpai
11-06-2016, 01:12 AM
I disagree. The game is only a bit more than 3 months away(3 months, 9 days to be exact). That's really not that far off from now. If we were, say, a year or two out, then ok. But given how close we are to release, I'd like to imagine that now is the best time to talk about balance and optimization.

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic.