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jurinko
08-03-2004, 07:20 AM
my question is, why our Ivanushka closed that Warsaw uprising thread. As soon as you b*tch about GBW or Adolf or Pinochet here it´s OK. If you even touch those bolshevik bastards, threads get locked asap. Suddenly he is carefully dancing around like a mother duck around eggs. Had it not been locked, maybe Ivanushka would taught us that those crazy Polish guys deserved it. You know it, "one side of story", "that´s not exactly what went down" etc.
Will try it at the anniversary of Katyn massacre and see.

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Letka_13/Liptow @ HL

jurinko
08-03-2004, 07:20 AM
my question is, why our Ivanushka closed that Warsaw uprising thread. As soon as you b*tch about GBW or Adolf or Pinochet here it´s OK. If you even touch those bolshevik bastards, threads get locked asap. Suddenly he is carefully dancing around like a mother duck around eggs. Had it not been locked, maybe Ivanushka would taught us that those crazy Polish guys deserved it. You know it, "one side of story", "that´s not exactly what went down" etc.
Will try it at the anniversary of Katyn massacre and see.

---------------------
Letka_13/Liptow @ HL

crazyivan1970
08-03-2004, 07:29 AM
I see where you getting at...but, note when my comments were posted and what this thread is turning into. I did not get into this debate for a reason, simple matter of respect for those who died. Apparently some people don`t see it that way.

You way off jirinko, didn`t expect that from you. Why don`t you call me a commie and be done with it. Sad.

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Zayets
08-03-2004, 07:34 AM
Ivan has the right to close any thread he wants.
That's OK with me since everybody have to respect the rules.
But to be honest,I didn't see ANY nationalistic remarks or attack in the thread.
I say it once again,bolshevism suck as big as nazism.They are alike.You can't separate them.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

Zayets
08-03-2004, 07:35 AM
And Ivan,you better delete this post!
It will get REALLY ugly!I have seen worst http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

crazyivan1970
08-03-2004, 07:38 AM
people have problem with me, let them talk. I don`t mind.

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Zayets
08-03-2004, 07:45 AM
Ivan,one day you will realize that you have to have a firm hand on these stuffs.People invested you with this "power".Use it! You know in what it will turn this thread,don't you?Stand by your actions,you don't want to create precedents.
Just my 0.02 eur

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

arcadeace
08-03-2004, 07:46 AM
well you're an American commie now comrade, and this patriot thinks it ok http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

CHDT
08-03-2004, 07:46 AM
I think that respect for the dead people is an undiscuted necessity and also that these facts of the past must not bring hate today among us, in the world, but also on such a forum!

But I think nevertheless it's important to remember these facts as they really happened.

Why? Simply because we are now very often getting from the medias a biaised vision of the history (of the present time too, but it's another debate), not always by a deliberate will but often by simple ignorance.

A single example: on the Swiss TV, when the journalist talked of these ceremonies in Poland, he simple mixed the Jewish guetto insurrection and the Warsaw insurrection of the Polish people! He said also that the West and only the West was responsible for not having helped the Polish fighters and said not a single word from the Red Army attitude.

So, in my mind, giving, even unintentionally, a wrong idea on an historical fact is not showing respect to the victims. So truth, even if it's unconfortable, stays truth and must be known in its entirety.

crazyivan1970
08-03-2004, 07:51 AM
CHDT, i don`t think we have an understanding. But you make a good point... different people, different opinion...BUT, why instead of giving your regards to the fallen you need to state your opinion on when, how and what...

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

LEXX_Luthor
08-03-2004, 07:53 AM
Okay, this looks like Fun. I still rather Believe the "common" idea but that may change if I learn more, and here is is another side, just for Fun...

I heard the Soviets offensive really did get stalled and exhausted about the time of the uprising. Even if they wanted to help Warsaw they could not.

Of course, from Stalingrad to Berlin, flight simmers expect the German Army to be able to stall and Embarass the primitive Red Army as soon as the Reds get a little extended, but not late 44 outside Warsaw. At Warsaw all flight simmers expect the Red Army to totally rout German Army at will, snap, just like that.

Just something I read but have not bothered to really look into it.

...and just for Fun. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________
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:
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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

p-39driver
08-03-2004, 07:57 AM
Enough is enough!
Back in the cockpit and back on the flight line with the lot of ya.

CHDT
08-03-2004, 07:59 AM
My opinion on that: the Polish people had a very hard time in WWII between the Nazi hammer and the Soviet anvil.

And of course, I don't amalgamate the German and the Russian peoples to their political regimes of that sad time.

jurinko
08-03-2004, 08:01 AM
no Ivan I would not tell youre a commie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but that Russian sentiment is present in all Russians wherever in world they are. I myself have no problem to condemn our own people if they did wrong in history and will not backup them only because they were of my blood.

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Letka_13/Liptow @ HL

Zayets
08-03-2004, 08:08 AM
CHDT is right.Don't forget that the eastern europeeans were taught that liberation was brought by the Red Army.Which technicaly is true.What followed,we all know.Funny thing is that these events,like Warsaw uprising,they couldn't read in their country literature.Was simply forbidden.How could one state the truth about this?To question the integrity of Stalin or Red Army?Therefore they read it from Western Europe literature or American one.That even if they knew the truth.Dead don't spoke loud enough for us to hear them.Is our duty to know the truth.Of course not in a message board,you get the idea.One thing is sure. If reconcilliation of the people uppressed by nazis already took place,same thing didn't happened with the communists/bolshevics and people they uppressed.Think Budapest or Prague after the war.

On a side note.Jurinko,your attack to Ivan was pretty low.If I were you I would do it in PT.Probably my note also should go in PT with you but since you brought it in public...
Ivan may not be the perfect mod but at least he tries to be one.And on a more general note,don't confuse people with ideas or their mad ex-leaders.You never know what life brings you.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

Nanuk66
08-03-2004, 08:16 AM
If you wanna read a really good but fecked up debate relating to this issue u should have a look at these posts:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=8a8274b03a0f8cdd976a4c823e7663e8&threadid=125608

Basically the fire is started by a Polish guy basically wanting to know what the Allies actually did for Poland. Its a UK/US bashing from our Polish friends. I personally agree the the Poles got a very rough deal B4/during and after WW2 but i never thought id see the day where a Pole started bashing the US and UK for not helping them...

-----------------------------
English lesson 101:
The word is 'Lose' not 'Loose'. e.g.
That IL2 is gonna lose the fight against that 109.
That IL2's wing looks loose, its gonna fall off.
If i dive too vertically i will lose my wing. k thx.
------------------------------

CHDT
08-03-2004, 08:17 AM
Btw, I agree with Zayets, I must say that moderation by Crazyivan is pretty fair, so no need of turning all this in a personal way.

JK-1
08-03-2004, 08:19 AM
Hummm... Should this be in the new "Off Topic Thread" ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

PS, I Think Ivan's a Great Dude ! And he has some Cool Model Airplanes Too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

CHDT
08-03-2004, 08:22 AM
Well put http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif it was my pathetic attempt to get a PF beta http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

carguy_
08-03-2004, 10:48 AM
Thank you Jurinko.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well the guy summoning the topic did a pretty stupid thing.

Bashing ppl for anything that happened now over 60 years ago,PFFFT!

In one thing he`s right.Poland`s fahren policy could be like anything but Poles feel the same about their NATO allies or the rest of the world.Nobody really believes that any1 would help us if another war would start.Who gives a d@mn about Poland or Poles.

There,I said it.

Though you were right,Ivan.Threads like this always turn into cr@p fights.What`s the difference if the thread gets locked sooner or later.

I`m Polish and appreciate anyone for remembering the sacrifice of Warsaw`s ppl.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

BfHeFwMe
08-03-2004, 11:23 AM
Like the soviets could ever be trusted, the same guys willing to sell out the west to face Hitler alone when they signing the pact and gleefully split Poland, grabed the Baltics and tried for Finland. They helped Hitler expidite the west war and get the confidence he was invulnerable when they secured his back door for him. Yet we must listen to their whining for a failure on our part for launching a western invasion soon enough. Can you say backfire?

They never counted on France falling so quick, or a German invasion being possible in 41. Can you say diplomatic blundering and incompetence from the start. I'm sure they'd have been there for the west had it been the other way around. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

DaBallz
08-03-2004, 05:06 PM
Ivan's position is understood. Unfortunately
that thread was degenerating into a flame war.

Tully would have locked it without explanation,
count your blessings.

Da...

BlackerCardinal
08-03-2004, 07:39 PM
Quite frankly Ivan I was also surprised by your "one-sided" comments. I certainly din not expect that from you.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I see where you getting at...but, note when my comments were posted and what this thread is turning into. I did not get into this debate for a reason, simple matter of respect for those who died. Apparently some people don`t see it that way.

You way off jirinko, didn`t expect that from you. Why don`t you call me a commie and be done with it. Sad.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/band.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Franzen
08-03-2004, 08:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
Thank you Jurinko.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well the guy summoning the topic did a pretty stupid thing.

Bashing ppl for anything that happened now over 60 years ago,PFFFT!

In one thing he`s right.Poland`s fahren policy could be like anything but Poles feel the same about their NATO allies or the rest of the world.Nobody really believes that any1 would help us if another war would start.Who gives a d@mn about Poland or Poles.

There,I said it.

Though you were right,Ivan.Threads like this always turn into cr@p fights.What`s the difference if the thread gets locked sooner or later.

I`m Polish and appreciate anyone for remembering the sacrifice of Warsaw`s ppl.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Carguy, I had a Polish girlfriend and met Miss Poland 1995 and 1996. I'll be the first to defend Poland. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

rwernick
08-04-2004, 02:24 AM
Firstly in 1939 the French and British embassies in Warsaw were surrounded by cheering crowds when those countries declared war on Germany. However, neither country was able to offer effective assistance to Poland.

In 1944 the Soviets disarmed and murdered members of the Polish Home Army (AK) as they advanced into Poland. They were more than happy to see Warsaw destroyed and had no intention of helping "class enemies".

What has this to do with Russian people of today? Very little, the Russian people (and other nations of the former USSR) were equally victims of the Soviet regime and died in their millions and cannot be held responsible for the Stalin regime. However, many Russians still learn a Soviet version of history and that needs to change. Poland and Lithuania as well as Poland and Ukraine have amended their history books and university courses to try to be objective in their sometimes difficult mutual history.

Rola.
08-04-2004, 02:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
Ivan's position is understood. Unfortunately
that thread was degenerating into a flame war.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With all respect, I disagree.
Most posters have given their respect to the fallen. Those that had other views were replied with civil posts. There was no hate speech or ethnical slurs - please provide quotes if you think otherwise.

Unfortunately, each thread here on UBI forums (I'm limiting myself to IL-2 related sections) has high potential of becoming a flame war. And you don't need politics at all: shall I throw such subjects like ".50 cal. dispersion", "La-7 performance", "Fw-190 cockpit visibility". It is sad that on other sim-related forums we often see their UBI counterparts as the nest of trolls.

Unless there is obvious hate speech & trolling in the posts, such threads should be kept open, so that we could discuss the history, so closely linked with WW2 simulator. It's unavoidable - if it was an "X-Wing General Discussion" forum, we'd be talking about Galactic Empire's atrocities, but since it's WW2 sim - we're talking about WW2 history. I even mentioned exact numbers of squadrons which made supply drops to Warsaw - doesn't this count as aviation-related post?

No wonder that locking like crazy (no pun intended http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) all potentially "dangerous" threads makes some people think about censorship in totalitarian countries. I've read the UBI forums rules and I haven't found anything that would violate them in my thread.

And if any of you think that I'm "hate-monger" or "devil's advocate" by starting a discussion about such sensitive subject, here is
my statement. (http://www.netwings.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2376&forum=DCForumID38&omm=13&viewmode=)

"September 1939" for "BoB" --- coming to a PC near you
www.9-1939.pl (http://www.9-1939.pl)

Freycinet
08-04-2004, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Like the soviets could ever be trusted, the same guys willing to sell out the west to face Hitler alone when they signing the pact and gleefully split Poland, grabed the Baltics and tried for Finland. They helped Hitler expidite the west war and get the confidence he was invulnerable when they secured his back door for him. Yet we must listen to their whining for a failure on our part for launching a western invasion soon enough. Can you say backfire?

They never counted on France falling so quick, or a German invasion being possible in 41. Can you say diplomatic blundering and incompetence from the start. I'm sure they'd have been there for the west had it been the other way around. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good points.

PraetorHonoris
08-04-2004, 08:33 AM
Think, most of you know this, but it's still quite good...

http://www.lsg.musin.de/Geschichte/Karikaturen/hitler-stalin-pakt.jpg

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8182/siglan1.jpg