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View Full Version : He-111 Bombing, What am I doing wrong???



XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 03:06 AM
I'm flying at the same altitude 2500m (+/- 100m) & at a constant airspeed 340-350kph, Everything is inputed correctly into the bombsight (correct altitude & 400kph TAS) , Yet the crosshairs DON'T stay on the target & my bombs constantly fall short, I used to be pretty good at level bombing yet now for some reason i can't hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle, Yet i'm i have'nt changed my bombing procedure at all, Whats going on???

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close your eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 03:06 AM
I'm flying at the same altitude 2500m (+/- 100m) & at a constant airspeed 340-350kph, Everything is inputed correctly into the bombsight (correct altitude & 400kph TAS) , Yet the crosshairs DON'T stay on the target & my bombs constantly fall short, I used to be pretty good at level bombing yet now for some reason i can't hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle, Yet i'm i have'nt changed my bombing procedure at all, Whats going on???

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close your eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 03:13 AM
If the cross hairs keep dropping off, then something isnt right. Make sure you are getting the airspeed from the no cockpit view. It changes quiet a bit at different altitudes. If you cant figure out what is screwing you up right away, try increasing or decreasing the speed after you set the automation. If the sight is dropping to the rear or under the plane, increase your speed in increments until it stabilizes on the target. Decrease, if it is going forward or over the target. I have to do this a little sometimes to steady things out. Its an easy fix and it even suggests it in the manual I believe.

...and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you long to return.
~leonardo de vinci

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 03:50 AM
I play with COCKPIT ALWAYS ON so i can't go to no cockpit view, The crosshairs always moving lagging behind the target but since in running full engine power closed radiator & 100% prop pitch i really can't increase speed & actually the manual suggests using the BOMBSIGHT VELOCITY keys to adjust crosshair movement, The strange thing is in the Training Track it says "Increasing Bombsight Velocity Will Make the Target Drift Slower" yet i find that Increasing the Velocity seems to make the target drift faster?

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close your eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 04:42 AM
Redwolf got it backwards. If the cross hairs start drifting under you then decrease bombsight velocity. If they are passing over the target then increase bombsight velocity. There is an indicated to true airspeed chart on FB disc 2 that you can print out. But it isn't very accurate. All you can use it for is to give you a general idea of what speeds you should enter in at a given altitude. The main thing is to just tweak the bombsight velocity continously. Just don't over control, give it a second to respond. At 4500m I usually set it between 400-420 km/h TAS while flying at 100% power.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 07:44 AM
Just made a new tool for that "FBD Buddy"...

Just enter command with IAS and atltitude in chat while flying and TAS will be calculated and also bombsight will be auto adjusted. I hit right on every time... :-0

/BadBernie

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 08:37 AM
Maj_Death wrote:
- Redwolf got it backwards. If the cross hairs start
- drifting under you then decrease bombsight velocity.
- If they are passing over the target then increase
- bombsight velocity.


I knew i was right about this, But in all fairness to Redwolf the He-111 training track also says that "increasing bombsite velocity will slow the target drift" but this obviously is wrong & i know this through trial and error.

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close your eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 08:53 AM
BadBernie, can you explain this a little more? The 111 is my favorite plane, and yet like the original poster, I can't keep the bombsight on target. It's usually because of a IAS/TAS miscalculation of some sort.

BadBernie wrote:
- Just made a new tool for that "FBD Buddy"...
-
- Just enter command with IAS and atltitude in chat
- while flying and TAS will be calculated and also
- bombsight will be auto adjusted. I hit right on
- every time... :-0



SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 08:54 AM
BadBernie wrote:
- Just made a new tool for that "FBD Buddy"...
-
- Just enter command with IAS and atltitude in chat
- while flying and TAS will be calculated and also
- bombsight will be auto adjusted. I hit right on
- every time... :-0
-
- /BadBernie
-
-
-
-


Yes isn´t amazing Bernie??

Its damn nice that you are a good man putting my ideas into reality!

Thanks again Bernie for this wonderful tool!

Its better than that chart that comes with the manuals on disc 2.

The word "preciscion bombing" is a good word for it.


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

/Petter_Gul
CO, Flygflottilj 16
#1 Swedish Virtual Squadron
http://www.f16vs.tk
_________________________

"Slider.... You Stink..."

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 08:57 AM
read more:

http://209.209.44.31/scripts/ikonboard/ikonboard.pl?s=cf352d916584803c46385e5abfe0fd9a;ac t=ST;f=28;t=4062

/BadBernie

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 09:14 AM
Here is something for you...
THis calculation is for standard atmosphere, we'll assume its the way the game engine is setup...

Your TAS (True Air Speed, the one you need to enter in the bombsight) increases 1% every 183 meters.

so if you're at 5000 and 200kph:

5000 / 183 = 27%

200 IAS x 27% = 254 TAS

try it!

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 09:27 AM
EFG_Zeb wrote:
- Here is something for you...
- THis calculation is for standard atmosphere, we'll
- assume its the way the game engine is setup...
-
- Your TAS (True Air Speed, the one you need to enter
- in the bombsight) increases 1% every 183 meters.
-
- so if you're at 5000 and 200kph:
-
- 5000 / 183 = 27%
-
- 200 IAS x 27% = 254 TAS
-
- try it!
-
-

Ehrrm....
If you are using the manual from Maddox you will see that 200 IAS @ 5000 M has a TAS of 266 with IS accurate with the game engine. That formula you mention here above is perhaps true in real life, but in IL2FB it is far off.. You will hit a hospital instead of army hq!!!

hehe


/Petter_Gul
CO, Flygflottilj 16
#1 Swedish Virtual Squadron
http://www.f16vs.tk
_________________________

"Slider.... You Stink..."

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 09:55 AM
EFG_Zeb wrote:
- Here is something for you...
- THis calculation is for standard atmosphere, we'll
- assume its the way the game engine is setup...
- Your TAS (True Air Speed, the one you need to enter
- in the bombsight) increases 1% every 183 meters.
- so if you're at 5000 and 200kph:
- 5000 / 183 = 27%
- 200 IAS x 27% = 254 TAS
- try it!


After lookin deeper in your formula i must admit it is good, but you have some wrong values set in it. If you modify those values, your formula works great!

Thanks Zeb!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

/Petter_Gul
CO, Flygflottilj 16
#1 Swedish Virtual Squadron
http://www.f16vs.tk
_________________________

"Slider.... You Stink..."

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:11 AM
- so if you're at 5000 and 200kph:
-
- 5000 / 183 = 27%
-
- 200 IAS x 27% = 254 TAS

When I use 152 instead of 183 that is almost same as from IAS/TAS table that was on cd...

Thanks for info Zeb.
/BadBernie

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:22 AM
You're welcome...
In RL for light aircraft navigation, we use a flight computer (where you set in the outside air temp at the altitude you're flying at and read your TAS off it. TAS is IAS corrected for different errors and mainly density error which is proportional to temperature.
This if a rough explanation, many factors actually come into play...

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:28 AM
Oh, and also i ALWAYS look at instrument only!
The red speed thing in lower left corner is not good...
If I use that one I always miss target.

/BadBernie

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:31 AM
Petter_Gul wrote:
-
- Ehrrm....
- If you are using the manual from Maddox you will see
- that 200 IAS @ 5000 M has a TAS of 266 with IS
- accurate with the game engine. That formula you
- mention here above is perhaps true in real life, but
- in IL2FB it is far off.. You will hit a hospital
- instead of army hq!!!
-
- hehe
-
-

That's right. I assume Zeb's formula is correct (won't check and can't be sure as my quick method works in feet), however, when I looked at converting IAS/TAS for some performance figures I found that the IL-2 atmosphere is a lot hotter than a standard one. The table on the disc also shows this. IIRC the game is standard atmosphere + 30-40 degrees C.

I use the table from the disc, with interpolation if necessary, and find it works pretty accurately. I don't cruise at 100%, however. To get the cruise power settings given in the manual I set 50-60% throttle and prop speed. The slower speed (~280 IAS) might help with accuracy.

As I can never remember which way to adjust bombsight velocity, in the event of any drift I turn the auto-stab off, slew the sight back on target and re-engage auto until the bombs drop. It seems that any errors are small enough, so long as the initial values I input were reasonably accurate. Perhaps I shall have a play with sight velocity next time.

Getting back to the original question: it sounds as if you are familiar with the basics, so I won't go over all of that. I'm afraid I'm not too sure why you're having problems if you have input good alt/speed values. All I can suggest is that it helps to get everything set-up well in advance. Get the bomber settled down and trimmed out at whatever cruise power you are going to use, so the speed won't be changing during the run. Use the map to get lined up as early as possible and then refine the heading as the target becomes visible. You can even 'test' the sight parameters by going auto-stab on whilst looking at something suitably far ahead (so the bombs won't be dropped!) see how it behaves and then turn it OFF again /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . In short, get everything sorted out as soon as you can, so that any changes during the bomb run itself are small, gentle ones.

Hope you solve the problem soon. Bomber pilots are a minority who must stick together /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:38 AM
What I did wrong was looking at speedbar.
Use instruments!
/BadBernie

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:42 AM
EFG_Zeb wrote:
- You're welcome...
- In RL for light aircraft navigation, we use a flight
- computer (where you set in the outside air temp at
- the altitude you're flying at and read your TAS off
- it. TAS is IAS corrected for different errors and
- mainly density error which is proportional to
- temperature.
- This if a rough explanation, many factors actually
- come into play...
-
-

Zeb, ever tried this? It can be done in your head:

speed in nm (or km, whatever) per minute times alt in 1000s of feet = the correction to add to IAS

eg. 210 kts at 10 000 feet on standard day
TAS=210+(3.5*10)=245

From 'computer' = 242

Also works well enough for navigation in games I've played, but not in FB, unfortunately. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:43 AM
I'll have to look into that but standard temp + 30-40 C seems way too hot, actually, that would put us around 50-55 C and thats like 120 Farenheit ( oof the top of my head)...I'll check using my flight computer to determine the temp in the game but I doubt it is std + 30-40 C...Maybe you're thinking Farenheit...It must be...

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 10:50 AM
Acme, another error in the system could possibly be your altitude input. When you engage the Level Stabilizer, it usually puts you in a very slight descent such that, when it comes time to release the bombs, you might be several hundred meters lower than you told the bombsight. It drops based on some fairly simple trigonometry equasions (fairly simple - HA! I can't even spell it!!), and if any of the data you give it is off, then you're going to miss. I think the errors in TAS have a far greater effect on accuracy that altitude, but none the less, it will make a difference. I will usually put an altitude in a couple of hundred meters below the altitude I'm at when I turn on the Level Stab.

"Those people in aviation, who think they know it all, are particularly annoying to those of us who really do" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 11:01 AM
Another question:

When I have 4x500 i dont want all 4 to be dropped at same time. That is what happens when I use bombsight automation.

First I enter correct TAS and Altitude but then I would like to drop bombs manually instead of using bombsight automation.

How can I do that?
Is bomb dropped at same "Elevation" all time?
Can I set a certain elevation and wait for target to pass bomb sight and then manually drop?

/BadBernie

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 03:38 PM
I'm pretty sure if you use bombsight automation they're all going to go in a stick whatever you do.

What Razzor22 said is another good point. I meant to mention that myself, but forgot. Although I get set up early I keep disengaging the auto-level to stay at the desired alt, and only engage it for the drop at the last minute.

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 05:26 PM
BadBernie,

I don't think you can drop just one bomb using the bombsight automation, and unfortunately, I don't think there is any visual indication in the sight that you can use to drop them manually. It's too bad, because that would be very usefull if we had some kind of indicator to tell you when to hit the pickel button. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"Those people in aviation, who think they know it all, are particularly annoying to those of us who really do" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 05:32 PM
I just made a tool/program that does that, all you do is enter IAS and Altitude and then use bomb sight! BOOM! Works perfect.

I will soon release that tool/program (FBD Buddy).

/BadBernie

XyZspineZyX
09-12-2003, 11:37 PM
yeah... very good when you have the He111-H2

30x50 kilos, that can be dropped as 15x2x50.


wich means you got 15 sets of 100kg bombs that can be delivered with good accuracy.


Its so cool!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

/Petter_Gul
CO, Flygflottilj 16
#1 Swedish Virtual Squadron
http://www.f16vs.tk
_________________________

"Slider.... You Stink..."

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 12:01 AM
Absolutly the best thread ever. Although 75% over my head. I love the 111, can't wait for that tool BadBernie!
Hats off Acme for a good question!

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 12:08 AM
Totally impressed with this thread. Zeb, thanks for the formula, BadBernie, the usual impatient question, when is FBD Buddy going to be released?
Cheers!

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/airplane1.3.jpg"


Ladies & gentlemen, this is the captain speaking. Thankyou for choosing to fly Mandarin Airlines. Those passengers sitting on the left-hand side of the aeroplane please make yourselves comfortable. Those sitting on the right... please look to your left!

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 12:21 AM
Beta is 100% done, need some ppl to test, if test ok probably out tomorrow.

But this tool will not be like using a laser guided bomb or anything like that, it still happens that I miss my target with this tool...

/BadBernie

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 12:23 AM
BadBernie wrote:
- Beta is 100% done, need some ppl to test, if test ok
- probably out tomorrow.
-
- But this tool will not be like using a laser guided
- bomb or anything like that, it still happens that I
- miss my target with this tool...
-
- /BadBernie
-
-
-
-

Wow! Instant reply. Thanks and Cheers!

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/airplane1.3.jpg"


Ladies & gentlemen, this is the captain speaking. Thankyou for choosing to fly Mandarin Airlines. Those passengers sitting on the left-hand side of the aeroplane please make yourselves comfortable. Those sitting on the right... please look to your left!

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 12:30 AM
Another question about bomb sight (he111):

If my altitude is 3000, and my target placed on a hill have altitude 500, should I enter altitude 2500 or 3000 in bomb sight? Or should I adjust in another way?

Thanks!

/BadBernie

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 12:39 AM
Acme70 wrote:
- Maj_Death wrote:
-- Redwolf got it backwards. If the cross hairs start
-- drifting under you then decrease bombsight velocity.
-- If they are passing over the target then increase
-- bombsight velocity.
-
-
- I knew i was right about this, But in all fairness
- to Redwolf the He-111 training track also says that
- "increasing bombsite velocity will slow the target
- drift" but this obviously is wrong & i know this
- through trial and error.
-
-Bomb sight velocity (is) the airplanes speed. I dont know why you would be flying at 100%. I bomb at around 75 to 80%. Your removing an option by flying at 100. And although I may have posted backwards, I am correct. So is the training track. I never miss my target. And I adjust any minor deviations with the throttle. Maj_Death is saying the exact same thing. He just corrected the part where I had it backwards. One more thing. You say you always fly in cockpit mode. When you are looking at the bombsight all you need to do is shift F1 I think. The cockpit has nothing to do with the bomb sight or gauges you need to bomb with.

...and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you long to return.
~leonardo de vinci

Message Edited on 09/12/0306:44PM by Redwulf__55

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 12:43 AM
BadBernie wrote:
- Another question about bomb sight (he111):
-
- If my altitude is 3000, and my target placed on a
- hill have altitude 500, should I enter altitude 2500
- or 3000 in bomb sight? Or should I adjust in another
- way?
-
- Thanks!
-
- /BadBernie
-
2500

I look forward to that tool too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anyways, that is the most difficult part. estimating the targets elevation above sea-level. They should include that in the briefing. I'm sure they did that in real life too.


1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 03:16 AM
I meant that i can't switch to no cockpit view. like it says in the manual

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close your eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2003, 07:21 AM
Redwulf__55 wrote:
- Acme70 wrote:
--Bomb sight velocity (is) the airplanes speed. I dont know why you would be flying at 100%. I bomb at around 75 to 80%. Your removing an option by flying at 100. And although I may have posted backwards, I am correct. So is the training track. I never miss my target. And I adjust any minor deviations with the throttle. Maj_Death is saying the exact same thing. He just corrected the part where I had it backwards. One more thing. You say you always fly in cockpit mode. When you are looking at the bombsight all you need to do is shift F1 I think. The cockpit has nothing to do with the bomb sight or gauges you need to bomb with.
-
- ...and once you have tasted flight, you will walk
- the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
- for there you have been and there you long to
- return.
- ~leonardo de vinci
-
- Message Edited on 09/12/03 06:44PM by
- Redwulf__55


Ehh ...

never mind

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


/Petter_Gul
CO, Flygflottilj 16
#1 Swedish Virtual Squadron
http://www.f16vs.tk
_________________________

"Slider.... You Stink..."

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 11:23 AM
Download FBD Buddy (beta), my little program will help to hit target easy.

Just send command with IAS, Alt and target in chat...
Then FBD Buddy calculates TAS and auto adjust bombsight.

Go to the greatergreen il2 forum to download and read about it.

/BadBernie