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View Full Version : Why the Orochi is Unbeatable



Sighyawn
09-19-2016, 01:06 AM
Alright. So I've been playing the For Honor Alpha and have put a decent amount of time into playing and learning each and every one of the six characters. And the Orochi is without a doubt way higher tier than the other five characters. For oh so many reasons. First however I'm going to explain my rankings and reasoning for each.

Top Tier: The Orochi
The Orochi has so many options and abilities that he can use to stun lock an opponent from full health to zero. If you dash backwards with the Orochi and preform a heavy attack the Orochi assumes a unique stance for as long as the button is held. Now this one attack is beyond broken. First of all if this attack is landed successfully it chains into two high light attacks. Effectively taking out half an opponents health. Another reason this attack is broken is that it actually acts as a second back step making it virtually impossible to stun an Orochi out of this attack. A third reason would be that the attack can be canceled into a guard break also granting the Orochi a free heavy attack. So that attack is ****ing busted. So not only that but any person playing Orochi with at least half a brain will guard you and follow up with the unblockable, undodgable, follow up attack. Which generally chains into 1 light attack. Also the Orochi tends to build up revenge much faster than other characters.

Counters to The Orochi are very few. First you can attempt to parry him generally leaving him open to light attacks but somehow they're able to dodge after the parry??? And when that doesn't work you can gank him. Which almost always works. But you need two people. He has no actual weaknesses other than his blocking abilities. Which turn out to be completely irrelevant in the hands of a at least decent player.

2. High Tier: The Beserker
The Beserker isn't nearly as BS as the Orochi but he comes close. Mainly because of his attacks that grant him the ability to not flinch. Sure you can block them or parry but simply because he doesn't flinch it completely eliminates the option of countering him. The only other thing wrong with him is that is high heavy attack takes out HALF MY HEALTH. One hit. Half my health. Wtf.

3. Mid Tier: Raider, Kensei, Crusader
All three of these characters are very equally versatile and balanced. My only issue is the unblockable attack on the Raider. That thing can be undodgable sometimes due to lag and it gets spammed.

4. Low Tier: Warden
Sadly the Warden character turned out to be the weakest and least versatile character. The two unique abilities to the warden are his high counter attack dealing decent damage and functioning identical to a parry, but only for high attacks. His other ability is his shoulder charge. After light attacks or a sidestep you can preform a charge that knocks people back with no damage dealt. Here lies the problem. The Warden has few special and unique properties and abilities to actually make them "Adaptable." The Warden has an unnecessary amount of difficulty fighting most enemies. The only way to win consistently with the Warden is to be crazy good at parrying and baiting high attacks for the counter hit. So playing the Warden ended up actually being the most difficult of the characters to win with even though the game says "Easy" next to his name. He is called "Adaptable" when his only options are parrying or attempting to charge someone which will generally be dodged virtually every time.

KALUHS
09-19-2016, 01:27 AM
I agree with most of this although I would like to see more variety added to the other classes than to nerf orochi. Orochi feels like a complete character while the rest still seem in development. The free top heavy after guard break and the back dash into 2 free hits is pretty brutal.

Saint_Dante
09-19-2016, 02:31 AM
Alright. So I've been playing the For Honor Alpha and have put a decent amount of time into playing and learning each and every one of the six characters. And the Orochi is without a doubt way higher tier than the other five characters. For oh so many reasons. First however I'm going to explain my rankings and reasoning for each.

Top Tier: The Orochi
The Orochi has so many options and abilities that he can use to stun lock an opponent from full health to zero. If you dash backwards with the Orochi and preform a heavy attack the Orochi assumes a unique stance for as long as the button is held. Now this one attack is beyond broken. First of all if this attack is landed successfully it chains into two high light attacks. Effectively taking out half an opponents health. Another reason this attack is broken is that it actually acts as a second back step making it virtually impossible to stun an Orochi out of this attack. A third reason would be that the attack can be canceled into a guard break also granting the Orochi a free heavy attack. So that attack is ****ing busted. So not only that but any person playing Orochi with at least half a brain will guard you and follow up with the unblockable, undodgable, follow up attack. Which generally chains into 1 light attack. Also the Orochi tends to build up revenge much faster than other characters.

Counters to The Orochi are very few. First you can attempt to parry him generally leaving him open to light attacks but somehow they're able to dodge after the parry??? And when that doesn't work you can gank him. Which almost always works. But you need two people. He has no actual weaknesses other than his blocking abilities. Which turn out to be completely irrelevant in the hands of a at least decent player.

2. High Tier: The Beserker
The Beserker isn't nearly as BS as the Orochi but he comes close. Mainly because of his attacks that grant him the ability to not flinch. Sure you can block them or parry but simply because he doesn't flinch it completely eliminates the option of countering him. The only other thing wrong with him is that is high heavy attack takes out HALF MY HEALTH. One hit. Half my health. Wtf.

3. Mid Tier: Raider, Kensei, Crusader
All three of these characters are very equally versatile and balanced. My only issue is the unblockable attack on the Raider. That thing can be undodgable sometimes due to lag and it gets spammed.

4. Low Tier: Warden
Sadly the Warden character turned out to be the weakest and least versatile character. The two unique abilities to the warden are his high counter attack dealing decent damage and functioning identical to a parry, but only for high attacks. His other ability is his shoulder charge. After light attacks or a sidestep you can preform a charge that knocks people back with no damage dealt. Here lies the problem. The Warden has few special and unique properties and abilities to actually make them "Adaptable." The Warden has an unnecessary amount of difficulty fighting most enemies. The only way to win consistently with the Warden is to be crazy good at parrying and baiting high attacks for the counter hit. So playing the Warden ended up actually being the most difficult of the characters to win with even though the game says "Easy" next to his name. He is called "Adaptable" when his only options are parrying or attempting to charge someone which will generally be dodged virtually every time.

First of all, you are clearly playing at a low skill level with these assumptions about classes. I'll go through each of your points for you.

1. Top Tier: Orochi?: Half of your argument seems to be that his backwards heavy attack is op, but if you learned from your mistakes instead of simply repeating them you would notice 2 very important things about it. He is very clearly initiating the attack when he jumps backwards. If you simply duplicate his motions, you are out of range of the attack. At this point, the orochi has 2 choices, wait until you enter the range or cancel the attack. You then have all the time in the world to notice which side the orochi's sword it on. Whichever side it's on, the dash attack is going to hit that side. So, you set up the block accordingly. In fact, the easiest classes to do this with are the warden and crusader since they can set their defense to be on a specific side passively. Regarding the unblockable attack on a parry, the extra strike after that can be blocked. In fact, when playing orochi myself, I take advantage of the extra strike to parry and strike back at the orochi who hit me with a counter attack.

2.High Tier: Berserker?: This class is by no means op. First of all, yes his attacks cannot be stopped with a flinch like other classes, but your mistake was trying to exploit the same weakness as other classes with him. The primary strategy I use when fighting Berserkers are 2 main steps. First, never let them grab you, always shove them off as soon as they try. Otherwise you're in for a load of pain if they don't simply toss you off a cliff. Second, when blocking if they can't grab, they tend to end in the spinning jump strike. As soon as this attack hits your guard, the berserker is open to take some hits. It's actually a fairly large opening to the point that skilled players will take a few light attacks from it and unskilled players can take heavy attacks due to it. As for his high damage on the heavy attack, also take note that his light attacks do negligible damage unless you let him simply rip into you. Damage had to be balanced somewhere.

3. Mid Tier: Raider, Kensei, Crusader: This is probably the second biggest mistake in your whole complaint. First of all, Raiders are bulky and slow. With that comes some ridiculous damage and control. A good Raider only needs to get a combo off on you once to completely change the flow of a fight. Orochi's in particular can be 3 shotted by raiders if they make a mistake. Crusaders are meant to be defensive heroes. The reason so many people are bad with them is due to not taking advantage of their skill set. They can do crazy damage, their attacks are weird to dodge, and they are ridiculously fast to counter attack. Trying to fight outright with them is the common mistake as they are slow and bulky when they are initiating the fight. The only good form of initiating they have is their charge, and that can be easily dodged. Now, the Kensei...I can't even believe the Kensei is rated this low. Good Kensei players are monsters. Bad ones are easy to kill and the bots I would get paired against near the end of alpha could probably solo a bad Kensei without taking damage. But the players that are good with him are insane. I've witnessed a Kensei win a 1v3 without even using revenge mode because he was that good at him. Kensei is by no means op, his skill cap is just fairly wide is all. And those at the top probably have more fun against bots than bad players.

4. Low Tier: Warden?: Like, what is wrong with you? This is probably the best class for newer players because of how easy he is to master. His parry leads to insane damage, his overhead heavy attack can be doubled up for a slight jump forward on the second attack, both of which do around 1/3 the enemy health bar on hit. He passively blocks from the last direction you blocked or attacked from, making it easy for bad players to accidentally block attacks they were too slow to react to. His charge can break up an enemy guard to allow free attacks. His feat set is extremely good allowing him to maintain control over the middle portion of the map fairly easy after hitting the first level consisting of body count which on an area attack against minions allows for about 1/5-1/6 health bar recovery; inspired ally or conqueror, respectively allowing either the minions to deal more damage which discourages opponents from coming mid due to the damage they can deal over time or allows taking points quickly. Second wind is insane since it allows healing for 4 charges approximately 1/3 of an hp bar each before needing to go on cooldown and can be used during blocking. And the Stalwart banner can be used for a healing area for the team or the last ability which I cannot remember the name of boosts attack of all allied heroes around you. This is all aside from the fact that zone control mid with warden is insane due to the area attack being capable of taking out around 8-10 minions when used well.

xJstarx00
09-19-2016, 02:35 AM
I've beaten the Orochi plenty of times.

Remnant_Thaelas
05-07-2018, 03:17 PM
i love reading these posts 1 year later its amusing how people used to call orochi broken xD

BananaBlighter
05-07-2018, 03:45 PM
Well in the closed alpha he probably was the strongest hero (either him or Warden), especially since deflecting was completely different back then and required 0 skill to do. The other 4 heroes were very weak.

A lot has changed since then.

Roseguard_Cpt
05-07-2018, 03:56 PM
This is some next tier thread necromancy. I do remember when Roach was "OP" but also at this time Nobushi was "OP" because her 3 light pokes were "Unreactable" and the fact that she made you bleed was overpowered, because she had to wait for the damage to kill you rather than getting instant damage.
The issue is we all got good, we figured out how to block and then suddenly the meta shifted to blocking because blocking and parrying was so rewarding. These days you probably won't see a Nobu go for her triple poke without getting parried.

BananaBlighter
05-07-2018, 04:11 PM
This is some next tier thread necromancy. I do remember when Roach was "OP" but also at this time Nobushi was "OP" because her 3 light pokes were "Unreactable" and the fact that she made you bleed was overpowered, because she had to wait for the damage to kill you rather than getting instant damage.
The issue is we all got good, we figured out how to block and then suddenly the meta shifted to blocking because blocking and parrying was so rewarding. These days you probably won't see a Nobu go for her triple poke without getting parried.

That is for sure a huge part of it, but I would still argue that Orochi from the closed alpha would dominate in today's For Honor. The simple reason why is that back then, all you had to do to deflect was block the attack at the last moment (no other button input required). There was literally no risk to doing it at all. You could even block late because of slow reactions and be rewarded with a deflect. At launch he was still kinda strong, but nothing compared to the closed alpha.

UbiInsulin
05-07-2018, 09:26 PM
I agree that it can be interesting to compare old opinions to the current state of things, but I'd recommend linking the posts here to one of the more recent threads (https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1877956-Orochi-s-rework-isn-t-changing-much-at-all) about Orochi. This thread is from 2016, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to close it as this is a definite case of necromancy.

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