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XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 07:46 PM
S~

Just wanted to tell about an anoying bug in IL-2. It always been like that and i wonder if it will be corrected somewhen or if it's intentionally made like so.

When 2 planes collide in the air..why is one going down and the other still flying ???

I'm not too sure about the realisim of it. I worked for Bombardier aerospace in Canada and i know that what damages a single birds make on a plane. Now, imagine what 2 wings, hitting each others over 300 km/h in opposite directions, can do. Both planes should go down in pieces.

We've seen this scenario too many times to stay mute about it. I tought that the Patch (Fianl) would correct it, but it haven't. Could you explain me why it's like so and tell me if it will be corrected.

I personally think (and much other people) that it's the biggest bug that can be found. This is no reprach to you, the game is great, but i simply want awnsers from the creation team.


S~

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 07:46 PM
S~

Just wanted to tell about an anoying bug in IL-2. It always been like that and i wonder if it will be corrected somewhen or if it's intentionally made like so.

When 2 planes collide in the air..why is one going down and the other still flying ???

I'm not too sure about the realisim of it. I worked for Bombardier aerospace in Canada and i know that what damages a single birds make on a plane. Now, imagine what 2 wings, hitting each others over 300 km/h in opposite directions, can do. Both planes should go down in pieces.

We've seen this scenario too many times to stay mute about it. I tought that the Patch (Fianl) would correct it, but it haven't. Could you explain me why it's like so and tell me if it will be corrected.

I personally think (and much other people) that it's the biggest bug that can be found. This is no reprach to you, the game is great, but i simply want awnsers from the creation team.


S~

XyZspineZyX
09-14-2003, 08:04 PM
i see ur point, but it can happen i have seen it. Back in the 80's the Georgia ang took Bill Elliot of (Nascar fame) for a promo ride for some mock combat. An F16 b was flown in Bills mount, and the squard off anginst the ang f 15 well in high speed head on pass the 2 clipped. I can not remember the exact details. I think the eagle lost its vert stabs(went down) and the falcon came home with half a wing missing.
I have also read were a german pilot wanted the iron cross first class needed 3 point, to sum up , chasing a b model mustang, his mg,s and cannon jammed he recalled u get a 3 points for the ramming of a fighter. He had quite shooting obviously, the stang though he had lost him and relaxed. bout that time he pulled up and through the bottom of the stang. He cut it in half aft of the pit. Now the stag was toast, but the 109 was still flyin, the engine was windmilling but still in the air. He landed and had to take the train back to base. The co was a bit ticked so goes the story. I will hunt a pilot name later.
S!

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XyZspineZyX
09-15-2003, 03:08 AM
You will never see two planes in a head on with one surviving. Usually it is the angle attack where one may loose a wing or even explode but the other one will just be damaged. Not like CFS where if you get within a few feet of another plane you explode instantly. This is one of the great things about this sim..... It is so far above anything else out there for little nuances like that.

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:00 AM
the clipping is good in this game /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:11 AM
you two guys have no idea what Falco means

the collisions in FB are soooo wrong

do you two even fly online ????

when planes collide in FB one goes down & the other can fly just fine , tell me how that makes FB realistic ???????

i have been killed lots of times in fights by getting rammed & the rammer stays airborn , the kill message should at least change

you two need to check it out because it happenes

the message you recieved when you crash should at least be changed when it happens to you

more to the point is that in air 2 air collisions both planes should recieve damadge 90 % of the time instead of 10 % like it is now

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:49 AM
Nothing wrong comparing to other sims,

If it happenes online then you should read the thread somewhere here that explain why it may happen.

try in single play that to compare.



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:11 PM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- Nothing wrong comparing to other sims,
-
- If it happenes online then you should read the
- thread somewhere here that explain why it may
- happen.
-
- try in single play that to compare.
-
-
-
-
- Oleg Maddox
- 1C:Maddox Games
-

Sorry Oleg, but this rather poor programing !!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:26 PM
Some people need to realize that online there is lag. There is offline too between planes but it is more than an order of magnitude less.

Where there is lag, two objects will not see the same event the same. This is a fact, not some hunch.

One player may see and experience a collision while the other may only see a close pass.

Perhaps you would like to pass close to another plane and up to a second later your plane mysteriously explodes or takes fatal damage? [SARCASM:ON] I'm so absolutely NOONE would complain at all! [SARCASM:OFF]

In history there were survivable collisions. In the beginning of the war in Russia there were pilots who deliberately clipped bombers and some survived even multiple times using that tactic. The name is 'Taran'.

Poor code or just ignorant expectations? Take your pick, it is only opinion all that can say the former and not from any knowledge.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 02:52 PM
Guys, with all respect i owe you...i don't beleive that 2 planes would survive a crash in the air, one facing the other, wings hit and one survive.

Like i said, I have aerospace knowledges, i know how wings are made, what material, material resistance and properties... and i can swear that this would not be possible at all. Can you simply imagine the impact of 2 wings colliding over 300 km/h? If you still think that it is possible, i sugest you to get some knowledge in aerospace before posting me again.

Oleg, We owe you much, this sim is very nice. You don't have to compare this 'bug' with other sims. I played CFS, the collision buble was horrible, your sim is really superior, but why comparing it to other sims and say:

Nothing wrong comparing to other sims,

I would bet all i got , saying that i'm true about this. It's simply impossible to have 1 survivor in such an impact. I'm really fed up about rammers that rams me and stay alive, and get the kill, which they do not diserve.

Could you please link me to the thread you talked about Oleg? I'd really like to see this...

S~

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:18 PM
WWMaxGunz above explained partially about lag problem in online and its why we may expect different result for two planes.

In single play there is no lag and collision works Ok as should. In single play the damage depends on which part of plane was hit to other plane... But usualy both plane got damage.


If to speak about "taran"(ramming) tactics that also described above, I will confirm: it was and most pilots after that even landed or some - repeated the attack.


Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:24 PM
General Falco, I believe what Oleg has said in the past (and as said by MaxGunz above) is that Online collisions Cannot be modeled as you wish, it is simply a limitation of the internet, their cannot be enough 'updates' (game information, packets) sent to keep up with what is happening on screen, therefor some information is 'lost', sometimes that information is the 'destroy wing due to collision' information that is not sent (or not recieved), so during collision one aircraft is destroyed the other doesn't know it is destroyed. To recieve enough information to model collisions as well as offline would bring internet play to its knees with lag (though LAN may be a different story, I expect they are able to process enough information). It is really about tradeoffs, to be able to play online we must allow for some of these problems.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:44 PM
WWMaxGunz wrote:
- Some people need to realize that online there is
- lag. There is offline too between planes but it is
- more than an order of magnitude less.
-
- Where there is lag, two objects will not see the
- same event the same. This is a fact, not some
- hunch.
-
- One player may see and experience a collision while
- the other may only see a close pass.
[snip]

Right on. Timing problems will always be an issue with any Internet game play--not just with this one. Even with faster connections latency will be an issue. The speed of light is too slow, sometimes.

[snip]
- In history there were survivable collisions. In the
- beginning of the war in Russia there were pilots who
- deliberately clipped bombers and some survived even
- multiple times using that tactic. The name is
- 'Taran'.
[snip]

One of the early U.S. flying wing design prototypes was actually purpose built as a flying ram--intended to slice through the tail sections or wings of strategic bombers.
<img src=http://www.is.northropgrumman.com/gallery/historical/images/xp-79b_45.jpg width="450" height="250" border="2" alt="Northrup XP-79B">
Northrop XP-79B Flying Ram - 1945
More info: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/history/marshall/military/airforce/p_series_fighters/p79

Unfortunately, this prototype crashed on its first flight, and the pilot killed. Program cancelled.

-r



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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:26 PM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- WWMaxGunz above explained partially about lag
- problem in online and its why we may expect
- different result for two planes.

I can't explain just how each persons PC has it's own model of what is happening because I don't have the code!
But I have seen in enough other sims that from update to update the last trend in changes in pitch, roll, yaw, etc, and speed are kept in motion till the next when it changes again. With short ping time everyones PC has close agreement and as long as there is no big control changes in one machine prior to and leading up to an event like collision or close then there is less difference between how one sees and the other sees.

- In single play there is no lag

Only if all planes are moved in turn or simultaneous can that happen. Even in turn, there is some increment of time each moves by. Unless each checks for collision before and after every step of movement (a step may be .83m at 300 kph if the step is .01 second, somehow I think the steps are longer!) then very slight collisions like propeller shaving a tail may be seen by one plane that has been moved forward before the other has been moved away. This is only by mathematics, computing time and speed.

We fly by finite series, so to speak, and not infinite series or the calculus unless some change has happened that I never heard of! (but oh! what a dream!)

- and collision works
- Ok as should. In single play the damage depends on
- which part of plane was hit to other plane... But
- usualy both plane got damage.

I am sure that offline the steps are very short! With a LAN the playspeed must also be very close to real, although I've never had the experience. :-(

- If to speak about "taran"(ramming) tactics that also
- described above, I will confirm: it was and most
- pilots after that even landed or some - repeated the
- attack.
-
-
-
- Oleg Maddox
- 1C:Maddox Games
-

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 03:50 AM
Well Oleg, it seems like the game will keep going this way. I'm very hard to convince and i still have a doubt on this point, but i give you the credit for it. I trully hope that it's as real as it could be in real life.

Maybe it's just impossible to program such thing due to the lags. Just a sugestion.. what about not giving any kill mentions to any planes that colide in the air.. i mean, every 'enemy planes' that collide, would not get a kill when in the air. I.E: we could still have team kills on ground for those who ram their friends by accident but if a red team and a blue team plane hit, the one that stays in the air gets no kill or reduced points for it.

As i told you, i studied aerospace domain at school, but i haven't studied programing. I'm just sugesting this cause i seen many players complaining about the ramings. I dunno if it's makable or not. If it is, well I expecting it as fast as you can and would be so thankfull to you.

If you can't, well just too bad, i'll still be pi**** but i'll eat my pills as we say in my language (French)

Hope to have positive news on this.

S~

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 07:07 AM
Forgive me if i'm wrong, but i once heard this said by many people it has also been what i have observed.

I think this damage thing works the same way as when you get the -400 points in a dogfight server or Co-op,
That is the game system looks at what each plane was doing just before the crash then tries to find who was at fault and then penalises them, (thats for if to allies do it)
If to enemys do it it works just the same only one person gets the kill points

So maybe the plane breaking works the same way? althought it is better if both die then one just get/loses points

(I do not know if this is repyable information from UBI or 1C:Maddox games, or weather it is just a romour that passes around the lobby's, but I think it is relyable because what i have observed that is what seams to happen.)

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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 07:16 AM
In winter war, one finnish pilot decided to use his propeller to destroy bomber tail wing, after his Machineguns had been frozen. After that he landed his plane back to airfield.

------------------------------------
In case of Emeregency press Esc and Quit game.

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 09:14 AM
Domar2 wrote:
- In winter war, one finnish pilot decided to use his
- propeller to destroy bomber tail wing, after his
- Machineguns had been frozen. After that he landed
- his plane back to airfield.
-


Well, unfortunately that has nothing to do with high speed collisions... or even collisions in of itself. When you come up from BEHIND an enemy (even a bomber that's slower than you) you aren't likely to be going more than 30kmph faster than the enemy (if you intend to chop his tail off w/ your prop). That would work because your relative speeds are very close, thus the speed at which you collide is very near 0. When you collide in a headon... if your combined speeds is say... 800kmph to be fair (each plane going 400kmph) there is no feasible way that one plane should survive (even if his wing hit your Vertical Stabilizer... your Stab should be completely torn off, as should his wing, or whatever hit you)... it's not as much a matter of durability as it is Inertia... anyways, it's clear that it won't be changed.

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 09:55 AM
WWMaxGunz i understand LAG

i have seen first hand the spontanous explosion that happen because the computer decides the plane or bullets hit me even tho the loss of infomation over the internet prevented me from seeing it



this is not what is meant by the orignal poster


we can collide online & both people can see it & one person can fly away

i myself had a wing to wing ramm with a squad mate & his wing got cut off & i flew away & fought in another DF untill i was winchester & then i RTB

after my wing cut off another plane wing i flew max AoA & as Max G as i could in the next fight

but my plane handeled it all


75% of collisions i see online result in one plane surviving with the other falling to the ground

in a 300+ Kph combined speed collision ( especially head on ) both parties should sustain damadge

it doesnt happen in FB

im not wanting to sound like a complainer because when i play a computer game it is FB , i no longer play anything else

but ppl get awarded points & kills when all they did is not get any damadge in a air 2 air collision in FB right now

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:27 PM
Well Badsight, we better get used to the rams we know. People will keep getting point on other's back when they ram them. As Hero said, we're not heading for a change. They will keep it like it is, It's bad, pis**** me off.. i know, but i've seen worse in CFS2 trust me lol. They are not going to change it, better make our minds about it now, All days reality seems unmakable for now....

Oleg, your sim is really good anyway, thx for the hard work!

S~

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 07:08 PM
WUAF_Badsight wrote:
- WWMaxGunz i understand LAG
-
- i have seen first hand the spontanous explosion
- that happen because the computer decides the plane
- or bullets hit me even tho the loss of infomation
- over the internet prevented me from seeing it
-
-
-
- this is not what is meant by the orignal poster
-
-
- we can collide online & both people can see it & one
- person can fly away
-
- i myself had a wing to wing ramm with a squad mate
- & his wing got cut off & i flew away & fought in
- another DF untill i was winchester & then i RTB
-
- after my wing cut off another plane wing i flew max
- AoA & as Max G as i could in the next fight
-
- but my plane handeled it all
-
-
- 75% of collisions i see online result in one plane
- surviving with the other falling to the ground
-
- in a 300+ Kph combined speed collision ( especially
- head on ) both parties should sustain damadge
-
- it doesnt happen in FB
-
- im not wanting to sound like a complainer because
- when i play a computer game it is FB , i no longer
- play anything else
-
- but ppl get awarded points & kills when all they did
- is not get any damadge in a air 2 air collision in
- FB right now
-



You must not play many Online flight sims.

Because this is very reasonable. most of the time it's closer to 98% that one of the planes end up in exploding,and the other flys on without damage.About 2% of the time both explode. Now if this was offline then there would be a problem.In fact most online sims there is no damage to the aircraft that is left flying. If there is some damage to the aircraft that is left flying in FB then this is the sweetest online sim ever.
-
- It's lag and nothing can be done about it. Until technology goes beyond lightspeed and everything is instantaneous.

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 08:35 PM
Well Grego, if everyone would have same speed connections it would be just great, but it still a dream. Some regions around the world still have 56k only.. we gotta live with it.

rgr about what you said, maybe 2% of collisions end up with 2 damaged planes, if we're damn f***** lucky, maybe we'll get 3%.


S~

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 09:48 PM
WUAF_Gen_Falco wrote:
- Well Oleg, it seems like the game will keep going
- this way. I'm very hard to convince and i still have
- a doubt on this point, but i give you the credit for
- it. I trully hope that it's as real as it could be
- in real life.
-
- Maybe it's just impossible to program such thing due
- to the lags. Just a sugestion.. what about not
- giving any kill mentions to any planes that colide
- in the air.. i mean, every 'enemy planes' that
- collide, would not get a kill when in the air. I.E:
- we could still have team kills on ground for those
- who ram their friends by accident but if a red team
- and a blue team plane hit, the one that stays in the
- air gets no kill or reduced points for it.
-
- As i told you, i studied aerospace domain at school,
- but i haven't studied programing. I'm just sugesting
- this cause i seen many players complaining about the
- ramings. I dunno if it's makable or not. If it is,
- well I expecting it as fast as you can and would be
- so thankfull to you.
-
- If you can't, well just too bad, i'll still be
- pi**** but i'll eat my pills as we say in my
- language (French)
-
- Hope to have positive news on this.
-
- S~
-
-

100% agree - at least do not give poitns to the rammer - this is not fair and I would call it cheating - "if he cannot shoot me down, at least he can try to ramm me to get his points.
This game is too good and I just love it, but the "ramming for points bug" should be resolved.

EPS_Les

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 11:37 PM
WUAF_Gen_Falco wrote:
- Well Grego, if everyone would have same speed
- connections it would be just great, but it still a
- dream. Some regions around the world still have 56k
- only.. we gotta live with it.

Then you don't understand lag in this context at all. And I've read you maybes. The only thing I can agree about is the points issue and that would require bookkeeping cross-corrections across the net to do.

They would need instant or nearly instant communications, all the players. A ping of 50ms (1/20th second) might do, might not. How far is the move at head-on speeds in 50ms plus time for 3 machines to process and transmit every change?

If on my PC our paths intersect and I do nothing but you make a hard course change it would still take the time for your PC to send your control movement to the host and then the host to get around to sending that to mine... so my PC may see a collision while yours does not.
Each client should be running the offline code with communications from the host acting to control everything but the clients plane. The other players take over for some or all of the AI and the host machine runs the rest of the AI's, even the ground objects so all players see the same from them, unless they've found a way that all client programs AI will do the same things -- it's very possible and would cut down on the net traffic.

If you have had a crash online as you described where you SAW your wings hit and yours was okay then all I can say is that the collision detection for one of your machines did not see the crash even though the GRAPHIC showed one. It's very simple when you figure out that the planes really jump from point to point on each PC while the graphics show the planes moving smoothly as in-between steps known as 'tweens'.

I wonder if gun projectiles are done as lines instead of points? That would make the best sense since the shots travel so fast that point to point would make too many misses.

It's possible that IL2 draws lines from plane starts positions to end positions, buffers the whole set and then checks for closest points along each and every plane with each and every other then checks for collisions if any two are near enough... but I Highly Doubt That just because damn, what it would do to the framerate to have that depth of checking plus the FM, DM, AI, EC (eye candy), communications and whatall else going on with it.

- rgr about what you said, maybe 2% of collisions end
- up with 2 damaged planes, if we're damn f*****
- lucky, maybe we'll get 3%.

If you ran on a LAN then the % would jump way up. If everyone in the arena had a very low ping, possible if all players were connected to the same net provider at the same location (all in the same city on the same service), then you would see the % jump. But it will never be better than offline. In fact, since everything has to pass through 3 machines for every little change it will never equal offline fidelity, which can't be up to reality. It's only as good online as it is because we are as slow as we are.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 02:23 AM
I think it is bloody awesome that Tarans are doable

AND I need an excuse to show of my first ever taran on a fighter (did it on purpose I swear - admittedly I was very lucky though). My engine seized to work and I had to glideland. Got shot in the head by AAA http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://vania.dk/images/fw_taran.gif

C!

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XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 12:46 PM
I wish I could agree. I've played HL many times, and have used the ramming technique to get a free kill when I was out of ammo. I've never rammed another plane and had him fly away undamaged.

BTW, I don't do it often, so chances are you were never rammed by me!

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 05:02 PM
Hmmm I wonder if its me your ramming there.