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cawatrooper9
09-08-2016, 12:22 AM
Had a conversation about monomyth (http://www.movieoutline.com/articles/the-hero-journey-mythic-structure-of-joseph-campbell-monomyth.html)the other day (the hero's journey) and it got me thinking- how applicable is this to the Assassins, given that they're not all traditional heroes?

Well, let's take a look with each Assassin, step by step.Obviously there's going to be some degree of spoilers here, so don't read the sections that you haven't played yet...

Anyway, let me know if any of you have a different interpretation- I find this stuff fascinating.

Also- I'll only be using the main console releases for this, and will consider each game its own personal entry and complete story- so, in this way, Ezio will get three entries. This makes things a little fuzzy, and some things get flipped, but I think it's an interesting idea.

Altair

Ordinary World- The Temple of Solomon mission. Hardly an ordinary world by our own standards, but we can assume that this was the type of thing Altair did on a regular basis, albeit maybe a bit more prestigious of a mission.

Call to Adventure- Altair seeing de Sable.

Refusal of the Call- Altair acting outside of the Creed.

Meeting the Mentor- Taken a little literally here, this is when Altair is reinstated after being stripped of his ranks by Al Mualim.

Crossing the Threshold-
A little meta for this game, I think crossing the threshold occurs when the player first enters the Kingdom.

Tests, Allies, Enemies-
Each of the main targets. This is basically the bulk of the game.

Approach to the Inmost Cave- I believe the final preparations Altair makes before heading out near the end is the reparations (and plans) with Malik.

Ordeal- The fight at Arsuf

Reward- Speaking with Richard the Linoheart (again, kind of a meta take, as this isn't as much a "reward" for Altair as it is for players).

The Road Back- Riding back to Masyaf, including the ascension of the city in which he must take arms against Assassins.

Resurrection- Altair's fight with Al Mualim and (more importantly) the first true glimpse of First Civ influence.

Return with the Elixer- Picking up the Apple...


Ezio (ACII)

Ordinary World- An easy one, Ezio's time early with his family.

Call to Adventure- The capture and execution of the Auditore men, as well as donning the robes.

Refusal of the Call- Ezio's attempt at fleeing with his mother and sister.

Meeting the Mentor- "IT'S A ME, MARIO!"

Crossing the Threshold- Ezio riding to San Gimignano to aid Mario.

Tests, Allies, Enemies- The adventures in Venice

Approach to the Inmost Cave- Ezio meeting with Leonardo about the Apple's arrival

Ordeal- The fight with Borgia in Venice

Reward- Becoming an Assassin

The Road Back- Returning to Montergionni, solving the codex riddle.

Resurrection- Fight with the pope, (Ezio even has a "resurrection" of sorts in the middle of it)

Return with the Elixer- Entering the vault.


Ezio (ACB)

Ordinary World- Life at Montergionni

Call to Adventure- Invasion of Montergionni

Refusal of the Call- A little out of order, but when Ezio refused to dispose of the Apple.

Meeting the Mentor- In this way, I'd argue that meeting the mentor is Ezio's introductions to his associates, with Ezio being the mentor.

Crossing the Threshold- Taking down the first Borgia tower.

Tests, Allies, Enemies- Establishing relationships with the guilds, fighting the Borgias.

Approach to the Inmost Cave- Getting the Apple

Ordeal- Defeating Cesare in Rome

Reward- Cesare's absence

The Road Back- Realizing Cesare's plans, traveling to Valencia

Resurrection- The fight atop the wall

Return with the Elixer- Storing the Apple

Ezio (ACR)

Ordinary World- Mostly told through letters

Call to Adventure- Discovering the Library

Refusal of the Call- Can't really think of one for her

Meeting the Mentor- Again, kind of a reversal, but Yusuf meeting his mentor

Crossing the Threshold- Meeting the prince

Tests, Allies, Enemies-
Collecting keys

Approach to the Inmost Cave-
The Cappadocia mission

Ordeal-
Defeating Cappadocia

Reward-
Keys secured

The Road Back-
Finishing the Altair missions

Resurrection-
Saving Sofia, taking out Ahmet

Return with the Elixer-
Return to the Library

Connor

Ordinary World- Connor in the village

Call to Adventure- The vision

Refusal of the Call- Connor's general attitude- his people first, the Creed second

Meeting the Mentor- Meeting Achilles

Crossing the Threshold- The Boston Massacre

Tests, Allies, Enemies-Taking out targets, meeting Haytham

Approach to the Inmost Cave- The Battle of Monmouth

Ordeal- Fighting Haytham

Reward- Templar plans hurt, Lee scared,

The Road Back- Returning to Lee

Resurrection- Meeting Lee in Boston

Return with the Elixer- Burying the key

Edward

Ordinary World- Life in England, through flashbacks

Call to Adventure- Reading the defector's note

Refusal of the Call- Joining with the Templars

Meeting the Mentor- Meeting the sage, getting screwed over on coin

Crossing the Threshold- Betraying the Templars

Tests, Allies, Enemies- The Nasau days

Approach to the Inmost Cave- Going to the Observatory with Roberts

Ordeal- Tracking and killing Roberts

Reward- Getting the skull

The Road Back- Hunting the remaining Templars

Resurrection- Taking the Observatory

Return with the Elixer- Returning to England with his Daughter

Arno

Ordinary World- Life in Versailles

Call to Adventure- Getting informed of de la Serre's message

Refusal of the Call- Failing to deliver it

Meeting the Mentor- Meeting Bellec in prison

Crossing the Threshold- Making his way to the Assassin's HQ

Tests, Allies, Enemies- Assassination missions

Approach to the Inmost Cave- Discovering Germain's identity as a sage

Ordeal- The fight at the gallows, leaving the Brotherhood

Reward- Getting to work with Elise ;)

The Road Back- Depression, drunk in Versailles

Resurrection- Returning to Paris, taking down Germain

Return with the Elixer- Hiding the Sage, coming to terms with stuff

Shay

Ordinary World- Life as an Assassin

Call to Adventure- Learning of the Assassin's mistakes

Refusal of the Call- Going "rogue"

Meeting the Mentor- Meeting various Templars

Crossing the Threshold- Taking the oath and becoming a full fledged Templar

Tests, Allies, Enemies-War against the Assassins

Approach to the Inmost Cave- Discovering the Ice Cave

Ordeal- The fight in the Ice Cave

Reward- Having stopped the Assassins and crippled the brotherhood.

The Road Back- Heading out to find the box

Resurrection- Killing Dorian in Versailles

Return with the Elixer- Leaving Versailles?

The Frye Twins

Ordinary World- Missions in Crawley

Call to Adventure- Starting the Rooks

Refusal of the Call- The disagreement on how to proceed

Meeting the Mentor- Meeting Henry

Crossing the Threshold- Forming the Rooks

Tests, Allies, Enemies- Taking down Templars

Approach to the Inmost Cave- Setting up the plan for the Palace

Ordeal- Confronting Starrick at the palace

Reward- Stopping Starrick

The Road Back- Deciding to not use the Shroud

Resurrection- Deciding to not use the Shroud

Return with the Elixer- Working for the Queen


A lot of these definitely need to be tweaked, but I thought it would be interesting food for thought. One thing I found interesting was that, out of all of the steps, I tended to find "Refusal of the Call" the hardest to pinpoint. Maybe our Assassins tend to be a little too eager?

Farlander1991
09-08-2016, 12:42 AM
You don't have to be a 'traditional hero' to go through 'The Hero's Journey'. It's a tool that helps tell compelling stories. And there's ****tons of games, movies, books that either use it or can be applied to it (that's also a thing, quite a bit of stories weren't created with The Hero's Journey in mind, but you still can apply it... something about that structure just resonates with people I suppose). One important thing to remember about The Hero's Journey is that as it's a tool, not all steps have to be present in every Hero's Journey (and Refusal of the Call is one that a lot of games tend to not have, though one can call a Refusal of the Call to be when the player instead of going through the designed storyline/path starts doing something else, until he gets back on track), and not all steps have to be in the same order.

But yeah, pretty much all Assassins go through a traditional Hero's Journey. Five years ago when I studied at VFS still wrote for an assignment a dissection of Ezio's Hero's Journey in ACII, you can see it here (https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID1329907130/Keyrpcclseg68ro/GD20StasCostiuc_Storytelling_a1.docx) if it interests you (there's some things that I'd change there, but generally it's still pretty accurate).

Connor's case is interesting though as it's actually a subversion of the Hero's Journey. After getting to the cave while technically he still goes through the Journey's steps, they all lead not to the effect a traditional Journey would.

Anyway, a bit later (gonna go to bed now) will take a look at how you dissected the characters' Hero's Journeys and will share my notes regarding that :)

cawatrooper9
09-08-2016, 03:12 AM
You don't have to be a 'traditional hero' to go through 'The Hero's Journey'. It's a tool that helps tell compelling stories. And there's ****tons of games, movies, books that either use it or can be applied to it (that's also a thing, quite a bit of stories weren't created with The Hero's Journey in mind, but you still can apply it... something about that structure just resonates with people I suppose). One important thing to remember about The Hero's Journey is that as it's a tool, not all steps have to be present in every Hero's Journey (and Refusal of the Call is one that a lot of games tend to not have, though one can call a Refusal of the Call to be when the player instead of going through the designed storyline/path starts doing something else, until he gets back on track), and not all steps have to be in the same order.


Very true- it interesting to see how applicable it is to certain characters (like, as you mention, Ezio) and how some subvert it a little more.


Anyway, a bit later (gonna go to bed now) will take a look at how you dissected the characters' Hero's Journeys and will share my notes regarding that

Thanks, looking forward to your input!

LoyalACFan
09-08-2016, 06:03 AM
IMO, the monomyth isn't a particularly helpful tool; it's vague enough that it can be warped onto almost any story. The fact that you can squeeze the Bible and The Big Lebowski into it with roughly equal success should illustrate that. Don't get me wrong, it's a perfect framework, but the general public of today is exposed to so much fiction in so many forms that it doesn't really offer any significant guidance that an average reader or TV watcher would have already deduced on some level.

Farlander1991
09-08-2016, 07:28 AM
IMO, the monomyth isn't a particularly helpful tool; it's vague enough that it can be warped onto almost any story. The fact that you can squeeze the Bible and The Big Lebowski into it with roughly equal success should illustrate that. Don't get me wrong, it's a perfect framework, but the general public of today is exposed to so much fiction in so many forms that it doesn't really offer any significant guidance that an average reader or TV watcher would have already deduced on some level.

To be fair, the monomyth as originally described by Campbell is less vague and with more details. Though I like Vogler's variation (the one described in this thread) better, precisely because it's more loose in its definitions. At any rate, Hero's Journey is a compilation of patterns that have existed in human stories and myths in different cultures for thousands of years. People were telling very similar stories across different regions of the planet, most of which had a similar structure. It's something that we innately are drawn to, which in my view is what makes the Hero's Journey interesting.

@Cawa,

I don't know how better to do this, so I'll just create a new huge list instead of quoting particular parts :D And will change where I think it's relevant.

Altair

Ordinary World - This would be the whole beginning section until the end of attack on Masyaf. That's the ordinary world for Altair, the context of his life hasn't changed.
Meeting the Mentor - Meeting Al Mualim, happens earlier than other steps.
Call to Adventure - Al Mualim telling Altair he needs to reclaim his honor back (that's Altair's quest)
Refusal of the Call - Well, this one is kinda tricky. Refusals of the Call aren't always originated from the Hero. Though in AC1's case it's not really a 'step' per se, more like Altair's attitude regarding the whole quest thing.
Crossing the Threshold - Well, considering there's also the archetype of threshold guardians, the crossing here would be finding the traitor in Masyaf.
Tests, Allies, Enemies - Yep, each of the main targets.



Approach to the Inmost Cave - This would be the Robert decoy assassination mission and travel to Arsuf.
Ordeal - The fight at Arsuf with Robert.
Reward - The reward would be knowledge, I think.
The Road Back - Riding back to Masyaf, including the ascension of the city in which he must take arms against Assassins.
Resurrection - Altair's fight with Al Mualim and (more importantly) the first true glimpse of First Civ influence.
Return with the Elixir - Picking up the Apple...


The tricky thing here is that one could say that the Ordeal is actually fight with Al Mualim, and the reward is the Apple, with fight at Arsuf happening earlier being Resurrection.

Ezio (AC2)

Ordinary World - Yep, Ezio living with family.
Call to Adventure - The capture and execution of the Auditore men, as well as donning the robes.
Crossing the Threshold - Ezio killing Uberto is his entrance into the special world.
Meeting the Mentor - "IT'S A ME, MARIO!"
Refusal of the Call - Ezio's wanting to go to Spain.
Tests, Allies, Enemies - Everything until Sequence 11.
Approach to the Inmost Cave - Ezio meeting with Leonardo about the Apple's arrival and following the Apple to Borgia.
Ordeal - The fight with Borgia in Venice
Reward - Getting the Apple from the Borgia.
The Road Back - This would be getting back to Florence (and the whole deal with the Apple being stolen as well, a contestion for the Reward is traditionally a part of the Road Back)
Resurrection - Bonfire of the Vanities and Ezio's speech during it. This is where Ezio is established as being reborn as a person (which is why it's so important to ACII's narrative)
Return with the Elixir - All the Rome stuff.


Connor

Ordinary World - Connor in the village
Call to Adventure - The vision
Refusal of the Call - Absent, Connor is not a reluctant hero, he accepts the call readily.
Meeting the Mentor - Meeting Achilles
Crossing the Threshold - The Boston Massacre
Tests, Allies, Enemies - Taking out targets, meeting Haytham
Approach to the Inmost Cave - It would be the 'siege' of New York.
Ordeal - Fighting Haytham
Reward - The Reward is supposed to be the amulet, but its absent. So the reward is 'nothing' :D
The Road Back - Returning to track down Lee
Resurrection - Going after Lee after being wounded.
Reward - This is where we actually get the reward after killing Lee.
Return with the Elixir - Yep, getting back to the village to bury the key.


Edward

Ordinary World - The beginning of the game as a pirate is Edward's ordinary world. Ordinary world is about the current status quo for the character.
Call to Adventure - Yep, reading the defector's note
Meeting the Mentor - The mentors for Edward would be Adewale and Kidd (and if one is to be chosen, then Kidd, but there's no rule against two mentors).
Crossing the Threshold - Taking the Jackdaw out of the Hurricane.
Refusal of the Call - Edward not wanting to be part of Assassins (not that the Assassins mind that :p )
Tests, Allies, Enemies - The bulk of the game until first Observatory mission.
Approach to the Inmost Cave - Going to the Observatory with Roberts
Ordeal - Being inside the observatory. Getting betrayed by Roberts and left abandoned by the crew.
The Road Back - The Prison section.
Resurrection - Edward's drunk vision and return to the Assassins.
Reward - Edward taking the skull from Roberts.
Return with the Elixir - Edward taking care of Templars and returning the skull to the observatory. His final reward is meeting with his daughter.


And will post about others a bit later :)

cawatrooper9
09-08-2016, 03:10 PM
Altair

Ordinary World - This would be the whole beginning section until the end of attack on Masyaf. That's the ordinary world for Altair, the context of his life hasn't changed.
Meeting the Mentor - Meeting Al Mualim, happens earlier than other steps.
Call to Adventure - Al Mualim telling Altair he needs to reclaim his honor back (that's Altair's quest)
Refusal of the Call - Well, this one is kinda tricky. Refusals of the Call aren't always originated from the Hero. Though in AC1's case it's not really a 'step' per se, more like Altair's attitude regarding the whole quest thing.
Crossing the Threshold - Well, considering there's also the archetype of threshold guardians, the crossing here would be finding the traitor in Masyaf.
Tests, Allies, Enemies - Yep, each of the main targets.



Approach to the Inmost Cave - This would be the Robert decoy assassination mission and travel to Arsuf.
Ordeal - The fight at Arsuf with Robert.
Reward - The reward would be knowledge, I think.
The Road Back - Riding back to Masyaf, including the ascension of the city in which he must take arms against Assassins.
Resurrection - Altair's fight with Al Mualim and (more importantly) the first true glimpse of First Civ influence.
Return with the Elixir - Picking up the Apple...


The tricky thing here is that one could say that the Ordeal is actually fight with Al Mualim, and the reward is the Apple, with fight at Arsuf happening earlier being Resurrection.


I think I'd agree with most of this, except maybe for "meeting the mentor". I'd not take this literally as in their first meeting, but rather a convergence with two at a time when important/life changing knowledge is instilled on Altair. I might instead place it right when Altair meets with Al Mualim after Solomon's temple and is initially admonished, or simultaneously with the "Call to Adventure".



Ezio (AC2)
Ordinary World - Yep, Ezio living with family.
Call to Adventure - The capture and execution of the Auditore men, as well as donning the robes.
Crossing the Threshold - Ezio killing Uberto is his entrance into the special world.
Meeting the Mentor - "IT'S A ME, MARIO!"
Refusal of the Call - Ezio's wanting to go to Spain.
Tests, Allies, Enemies - Everything until Sequence 11.
Approach to the Inmost Cave - Ezio meeting with Leonardo about the Apple's arrival and following the Apple to Borgia.
Ordeal - The fight with Borgia in Venice
Reward - Getting the Apple from the Borgia.
The Road Back - This would be getting back to Florence (and the whole deal with the Apple being stolen as well, a contestion for the Reward is traditionally a part of the Road Back)
Resurrection - Bonfire of the Vanities and Ezio's speech during it. This is where Ezio is established as being reborn as a person (which is why it's so important to ACII's narrative)
Return with the Elixir - All the Rome stuff.


Yeah, I wasn't sure whether to include the DLC stuff or not. I think the AC2 DLC is incredibly important to Ezio's development, but that sets a precedent that I don't really want to follow, particularly with Arno. But having taken it into account, I'd agree with this interpretation.





Connor
Ordinary World - Connor in the village
Call to Adventure - The vision
Refusal of the Call - Absent, Connor is not a reluctant hero, he accepts the call readily.
Meeting the Mentor - Meeting Achilles
Crossing the Threshold - The Boston Massacre
Tests, Allies, Enemies - Taking out targets, meeting Haytham
Approach to the Inmost Cave - It would be the 'siege' of New York.
Ordeal - Fighting Haytham
Reward - The Reward is supposed to be the amulet, but its absent. So the reward is 'nothing'
The Road Back - Returning to track down Lee
Resurrection - Going after Lee after being wounded.
Reward - This is where we actually get the reward after killing Lee.
Return with the Elixir - Yep, getting back to the village to bury the key.

Yeah, pretty close to what I had. Connor'r a little tough to pin down with his "refusal"- he does indeed readily accept the call. In fact, he may be the first Assassin that we see voluntarily seeking out the Assassins with intent to join them. However, he's rebellious and often defies Achilles's orders. So, it's not an outright refusal, but I do think he is a little defiant at some key points. Maybe it's even as late as him working with Haytham against Achilles's wishes.


Edward
Ordinary World - The beginning of the game as a pirate is Edward's ordinary world. Ordinary world is about the current status quo for the character.
Call to Adventure - Yep, reading the defector's note
Meeting the Mentor - The mentors for Edward would be Adewale and Kidd (and if one is to be chosen, then Kidd, but there's no rule against two mentors).
Crossing the Threshold - Taking the Jackdaw out of the Hurricane.
Refusal of the Call - Edward not wanting to be part of Assassins (not that the Assassins mind that )
Tests, Allies, Enemies - The bulk of the game until first Observatory mission.
Approach to the Inmost Cave - Going to the Observatory with Roberts
Ordeal - Being inside the observatory. Getting betrayed by Roberts and left abandoned by the crew.
The Road Back - The Prison section.
Resurrection - Edward's drunk vision and return to the Assassins.
Reward - Edward taking the skull from Roberts.
Return with the Elixir - Edward taking care of Templars and returning the skull to the observatory. His final reward is meeting with his daughter.

This interpretation is a little heavy on the Roberts stuff, but I like that. Maybe that's why the game feels like it fizzes out so much in its last few hours? (and not in a good, well earned way like RDR)

Yes, you're right about the Ordinary World section, in that it's the character's current status. However, given that one of the flashbacks occurs early in the game as well, I think there's something to be said about that being Edward's "comfort zone". Perhaps this game has a few "ordinary worlds" from which Edward stems.


And will post about others a bit later
Thanks, looking forward to it. Here, have my first official Ubisoft forums "like"!

Farlander1991
09-08-2016, 04:27 PM
I think I'd agree with most of this, except maybe for "meeting the mentor". I'd not take this literally as in their first meeting, but rather a convergence with two at a time when important/life changing knowledge is instilled on Altair. I might instead place it right when Altair meets with Al Mualim after Solomon's temple and is initially admonished, or simultaneously with the "Call to Adventure".


Yeah, that's what I meant as well. What I meant by 'happens earlier than other steps' is that 'Meeting the Mentor' traditionally is placed after the call and refusal, but here it would be before those steps.


Yeah, I wasn't sure whether to include the DLC stuff or not. I think the AC2 DLC is incredibly important to Ezio's development, but that sets a precedent that I don't really want to follow, particularly with Arno. But having taken it into account, I'd agree with this interpretation.

Well, I would say it depends. The thing is, AC2 DLC is very specific as it's essentially content that the developers planned for but could not get in time for release (at least that's my understanding, I don't know if that's actually the case). I mean, the new area from Bonfire was in the game since AC2 original's release, and the whole Forli was there but used just for one mission. Sequences 12/13 surely were supposed to be part of the original narrative. In case of Arno, though... it's a tricky thing. I wouldn't say ACU misses anything in terms of Hero's Journey steps.



Yeah, pretty close to what I had. Connor'r a little tough to pin down with his "refusal"- he does indeed readily accept the call. In fact, he may be the first Assassin that we see voluntarily seeking out the Assassins with intent to join them. However, he's rebellious and often defies Achilles's orders. So, it's not an outright refusal, but I do think he is a little defiant at some key points. Maybe it's even as late as him working with Haytham against Achilles's wishes.

Well, defiance is part of character, it doesn't necessarily lead to a 'refusal' step. Basically, the purpose of the 'Refusal' is to show to the main character WHY he should take the call and go out of his comfort zone. Even though Connor is defiant, since he already knew why he was doing this and readily accepted the call, there was no 'refusal' step of the Journey.


This interpretation is a little heavy on the Roberts stuff, but I like that. Maybe that's why the game feels like it fizzes out so much in its last few hours? (and not in a good, well earned way like RDR)

The thing is, narratively speaking Roberts is the antagonist of Edward's story, not Torres, even though a lot of people automatically assume when it comes to AC that 'Templar Grand Master = main antagonist'. Torres' death is important as it cements Edward's change, and it makes sense for it to be last, but it's Roberts who is Edward's Shadow, who represents all the negative traits of Edward.


Yes, you're right about the Ordinary World section, in that it's the character's current status. However, given that one of the flashbacks occurs early in the game as well, I think there's something to be said about that being Edward's "comfort zone". Perhaps this game has a few "ordinary worlds" from which Edward stems.

Well, it's difficult to discuss flashback's structurally due to the nature of them being flashbacks :) But yes, technically, since they happen before the events of the game they would be part of Edward's ordinary world. But then again, they're part of an arc that happened 'outside the screen' inbetween the flashbacks and the beginning of the game. Edward's ordinary world originally being England, he went through an arc of becoming a privateer that ended with the nature of caribbean pirate becoming his ordinary world.



Thanks, looking forward to it. Here, have my first official Ubisoft forums "like"!

Nice, thanks :D

Arno
- Ordinary World - Yes, life in Versailles
- Call to Adventure - Now this is a tricky one. While the letter is indeed why everything what happened to Arno happened, this moment isn't a catalyst for the person to embark on the quest that would bring a change in him. I would say that the letter is what's called in 3-act structure 'inciting incident'. But the Call would be Bellec asking Arno to join the Assassins.
- Refusal of the Call - Arno refuses the Call, goes to Elise and then realizes how he messed up any why he should take the call.
- Meeting the Mentor - Yeah, that stays meeting Bellec in prison
- Crossing the Threshold - The 'Rebirth' mission is literally crossing the threshold from ordinary world into a special one :) But, yeah, the initiation process is the threshold for Arno.
- Tests, Allies, Enemies - Assassination missions
- Approach to the Inmost Cave - Execution fight with Germain, leaving the brotherhood.
- Ordeal - Depression, being drunk in Versailles.
- Reward - Elise returning Arno's watch, Arno dealing with his depression.
- The Road Back - Getting back to Paris.
- Resurrection - Elise's and Germain's death, this is what signifies Arno's final transformation.
- Return with the Elixir - Getting to terms and finishing things up, as you said.

Shay
- Ordinary World - Life as an Assassin
- Call to Adventure - The whole thing in Lisbon.
- Refusal of the Call - Thinking that the manuscript is lost in the sea and nothing has to be done anymore.
- Meeting the Mentor - Meeting the General Templar (forgot what's his name)
- Crossing the Threshold - Killing the black Assassin (also forgot what's his name :D ) - that's when Shay fully leaves the Ordinary World and gets into his Special World - the Templar one.
- Tests, Allies, Enemies - War against the Assassins
- Approach to the Inmost Cave - That moment when General goes into a trap.
- Ordeal - Trying to save the General but failing, and losing the manuscript.
- Reward - Taking the Templar Oath.
- The Road Back - Getting back to the task of finding the manuscript and not letting Assassins to find the precursor site.
- Resurrection - Ice Cave
- Return with the Elixir - Setting out to find the box/Versailles.

The Frye Twins
- Ordinary World - Missions in Crawley
- Call to Adventure - Talk with George after which they decide to go to London
- Refusal of the Call - Not sure about this one.
- Meeting the Mentor - Meeting Henry
- Crossing the Threshold - Forming the Rooks, disagreement between Evie and Jacob.
- Tests, Allies, Enemies - Jacob - taking down Templars, Evie - searching for the Shroud, cleaning up Jacob's actions
- Approach to the Inmost Cave - Jacob: working with Roth, Evie: getting closer to Lucy's location
- Ordeal - Jacob: Confronting Roth, Evie: Confronting Thorne
- Reward - Jacob: Sadness and confusion :D , Evie: Key to the Vault
- The Road Back - Jacob and Evie getting back together as a team for 'one last job'
- Resurrection - Defeating Starrick and mending the relationship between each other (or should I say.... resurrecting their relationship? :D )
- Return with the Elixir - Getting knighted and back into action together.

cawatrooper9
09-08-2016, 05:34 PM
Arno
- Ordinary World - Yes, life in Versailles
- Call to Adventure - Now this is a tricky one. While the letter is indeed why everything what happened to Arno happened, this moment isn't a catalyst for the person to embark on the quest that would bring a change in him. I would say that the letter is what's called in 3-act structure 'inciting incident'. But the Call would be Bellec asking Arno to join the Assassins.
- Refusal of the Call - Arno refuses the Call, goes to Elise and then realizes how he messed up any why he should take the call.
- Meeting the Mentor - Yeah, that stays meeting Bellec in prison
- Crossing the Threshold - The 'Rebirth' mission is literally crossing the threshold from ordinary world into a special one :) But, yeah, the initiation process is the threshold for Arno.
- Tests, Allies, Enemies - Assassination missions
- Approach to the Inmost Cave - Execution fight with Germain, leaving the brotherhood.
- Ordeal - Depression, being drunk in Versailles.
- Reward - Elise returning Arno's watch, Arno dealing with his depression.
- The Road Back - Getting back to Paris.
- Resurrection - Elise's and Germain's death, this is what signifies Arno's final transformation.
- Return with the Elixir - Getting to terms and finishing things up, as you said.


Yeah, good call with the Call to Adventure- that is probably more accurate.
Otherwise, I like this model, particularly the watch in the Reward section.



Shay
- Ordinary World - Life as an Assassin
- Call to Adventure - The whole thing in Lisbon.
- Refusal of the Call - Thinking that the manuscript is lost in the sea and nothing has to be done anymore.
- Meeting the Mentor - Meeting the General Templar (forgot what's his name)
- Crossing the Threshold - Killing the black Assassin (also forgot what's his name ) - that's when Shay fully leaves the Ordinary World and gets into his Special World - the Templar one.
- Tests, Allies, Enemies - War against the Assassins
- Approach to the Inmost Cave - That moment when General goes into a trap.
- Ordeal - Trying to save the General but failing, and losing the manuscript.
- Reward - Taking the Templar Oath.
- The Road Back - Getting back to the task of finding the manuscript and not letting Assassins to find the precursor site.
- Resurrection - Ice Cave
- Return with the Elixir - Setting out to find the box/Versailles.


I think this is a tougher one, but I'm not so sure about this. I don't know if killing Le Chasseur was that much of a threshold, nor was Monro much of a mentor figure in the game. I'd still put it off as Haytham as Meeting the Mentor and either the Templar initiation or Adewale's assassination as Crossing the Threshold. Maybe that's why so many people see this game as having pacing issues.



The Frye Twins
- Ordinary World - Missions in Crawley
- Call to Adventure - Talk with George after which they decide to go to London
- Refusal of the Call - Not sure about this one.
- Meeting the Mentor - Meeting Henry
- Crossing the Threshold - Forming the Rooks, disagreement between Evie and Jacob.
- Tests, Allies, Enemies - Jacob - taking down Templars, Evie - searching for the Shroud, cleaning up Jacob's actions
- Approach to the Inmost Cave - Jacob: working with Roth, Evie: getting closer to Lucy's location
- Ordeal - Jacob: Confronting Roth, Evie: Confronting Thorne
- Reward - Jacob: Sadness and confusion , Evie: Key to the Vault
- The Road Back - Jacob and Evie getting back together as a team for 'one last job'
- Resurrection - Defeating Starrick and mending the relationship between each other (or should I say.... resurrecting their relationship? )
- Return with the Elixir - Getting knighted and back into action together.
I do find this model a little more agreeable. I like how the duality of the protagonists is reflected in it- maybe a little too well when compared to the final product it's intended to reflect... ;)

But yeah, refusal of the call is tough for this one, particularly when the two basically received the Call to Adventure and immediately and eagerly boarded the train. Maybe there's a bit of dialogue that briefly implies a moment of hesitation, but I don't remember one. Again, it's not like they have to follow the formula by the book, anyway.

Farlander1991
09-08-2016, 06:12 PM
I think this is a tougher one, but I'm not so sure about this. I don't know if killing Le Chasseur was that much of a threshold, nor was Monro much of a mentor figure in the game. I'd still put it off as Haytham as Meeting the Mentor and either the Templar initiation or Adewale's assassination as Crossing the Threshold. Maybe that's why so many people see this game as having pacing issues.

Well, I would say that Monro is more of a mentor figure than Haytham. I mean, it's essentially like Mario and Machiavelli in AC2. Yes, Machiavelli may be the leader of the order and a 'boss' (for some reason, even though he's younger than Ezio, but that's another topic :D ), but it's Mario who taught him a lot (though, Ezio had multiple Mentors, Mario is 'the' one). I mean, Monro saved Shay, introduced him to their viewpoint, set out on a journey of rebuilding the city and bringing order. The main purpose of the Mentor archetype is to guide the protagonist in learning the ropes of the Special World, and that's what Monro does. By the time Haytham gets into picture, Shay is accustomed by the Special World and needs no more mentoring.

When it comes to thresholds it's true that the Templar initiation is indeed a threshold, but here's the thing - there's not just one threshold in a Hero's Journey. There can be plenty. And generally the two biggest ones are at the 'Crossing the Threshold' and 'The Road Back' step.

And 'Crossing the Threshold' is originally called 'Crossing the First Threshold', and I would kind of add a detail 'the first BIG threshold'. Basically, the purpose of this step is to signify a point of no return - once hero completes this action, he commits to completing the quest, and there's no way to go back. For example, Frodo crossed the first big threshold when volunteering in Rivendell to take the Ring to Mordor. Before that moment, even after all what happened, he still could just go back to the Shire and not worry about the Journey. But leaving Rivendell as a Ringbearer has set the quest in stone.

So, the question is then, when does Shay's point of no return happen? One could argue that the moment is when he takes the manuscript from Achilles, at that point he's considered a traitor and can't go back to being an Assassin. And on one hand I think it's a valid point, but on another hand there's also no quest to commit to at that moment in time. Manuscript is in the ocean, presumably, so good. Shay can live a peaceful life in New York. And he still could potentially return to Assassins, there would be a small chance of them taking him back. Heck, even after beating some of the Assassin thugs and returning Morrigan, Shay can just leave those things alone. But killing Le Chasseur cemented Shay's defection from the faction, and him as their mortal enemy, and also has shown that Assassins are still after the Manuscript and his job to protect it is not done. So that's why I placed it as a threshold.

And Templar Initiation is also a threshold, as you said, which is why I think its place in The Reward is fitting, as that is usually the location of another big threshold in the Journey (well, between Reward/The Road Back). And that step usually signifies the start of the final stretch to finish the quest and complete the Hero's transformation. This point also can signify how the Hero is fully accustomed with the Special World now. Sort of how Ezio's initiation signifies the same thing for him in AC2 - it too happens between the Reward/The Road Back step. (Traditionally, though, it's a big threshold because usually it's when the hero goes back to the ordinary world with the knowledge from the special world, although the 'return to ordinary world' part usually is ignored nowadays from such structures, just using the metaphoric part of what the road back is)

There's plenty of ways to look at this, I'm just describing what was my logic behind setting those events at those two places.

cawatrooper9
09-08-2016, 07:33 PM
Well, I would say that Monro is more of a mentor figure than Haytham. I mean, it's essentially like Mario and Machiavelli in AC2. Yes, Machiavelli may be the leader of the order and a 'boss' (for some reason, even though he's younger than Ezio, but that's another topic :D ), but it's Mario who taught him a lot (though, Ezio had multiple Mentors, Mario is 'the' one). I mean, Monro saved Shay, introduced him to their viewpoint, set out on a journey of rebuilding the city and bringing order. The main purpose of the Mentor archetype is to guide the protagonist in learning the ropes of the Special World, and that's what Monro does. By the time Haytham gets into picture, Shay is accustomed by the Special World and needs no more mentoring.

I guess Monro guided Shay a little bit, but I just don't see his involvement as all that influential. If anything, they seemed to be almost more like partners than mentor/trainee.



When it comes to thresholds it's true that the Templar initiation is indeed a threshold, but here's the thing - there's not just one threshold in a Hero's Journey. There can be plenty. And generally the two biggest ones are at the 'Crossing the Threshold' and 'The Road Back' step.

And 'Crossing the Threshold' is originally called 'Crossing the First Threshold', and I would kind of add a detail 'the first BIG threshold'. Basically, the purpose of this step is to signify a point of no return - once hero completes this action, he commits to completing the quest, and there's no way to go back. For example, Frodo crossed the first big threshold when volunteering in Rivendell to take the Ring to Mordor. Before that moment, even after all what happened, he still could just go back to the Shire and not worry about the Journey. But leaving Rivendell as a Ringbearer has set the quest in stone.

So, the question is then, when does Shay's point of no return happen? One could argue that the moment is when he takes the manuscript from Achilles, at that point he's considered a traitor and can't go back to being an Assassin. And on one hand I think it's a valid point, but on another hand there's also no quest to commit to at that moment in time. Manuscript is in the ocean, presumably, so good. Shay can live a peaceful life in New York. And he still could potentially return to Assassins, there would be a small chance of them taking him back. Heck, even after beating some of the Assassin thugs and returning Morrigan, Shay can just leave those things alone. But killing Le Chasseur cemented Shay's defection from the faction, and him as their mortal enemy, and also has shown that Assassins are still after the Manuscript and his job to protect it is not done. So that's why I placed it as a threshold.

And Templar Initiation is also a threshold, as you said, which is why I think its place in The Reward is fitting, as that is usually the location of another big threshold in the Journey (well, between Reward/The Road Back). And that step usually signifies the start of the final stretch to finish the quest and complete the Hero's transformation. This point also can signify how the Hero is fully accustomed with the Special World now. Sort of how Ezio's initiation signifies the same thing for him in AC2 - it too happens between the Reward/The Road Back step. (Traditionally, though, it's a big threshold because usually it's when the hero goes back to the ordinary world with the knowledge from the special world, although the 'return to ordinary world' part usually is ignored nowadays from such structures, just using the metaphoric part of what the road back is)

Fair point about multiple thresholds, but I still disagree about Le Chasseur. I think that you're right in that it should be this big momentous event when Shay kills his first former ally- sort of an Anakin "WHAT HAVE I DONE?" moment after killing Mace Windu- but the game doesn't really treat it as such. In fact, Le Chasseur makes it pretty clear that he's not killing Shay because of his attack on the fort, but because of his betrayal of the brotherhood. The "point of no return" is far gone at that point.

So, I guess you've convinced me that Crossing isn't the initiation, but I wouldn't say it's Le Chausser, either. I'd put it at the manuscript. As far as the lack of a quest to commit- well, technically there really is a quest, as the Assassins still can get the manuscript- Shay just doesn't know it yet.


There's plenty of ways to look at this, I'm just describing what was my logic behind setting those events at those two places.
For sure, and even if I don't always agree, I love the input. As a graduate of English and Literature, I totally appreciate the different lenses that people can interpret a work through. I absolutely could not stand when a professor would be so naive as to think that a single interpretation could be right or wrong- rather, I think any interpretation can have merit, if it can be defended, which I think you've done a good job of.

Farlander1991
09-08-2016, 08:23 PM
I guess Monro guided Shay a little bit, but I just don't see his involvement as all that influential. If anything, they seemed to be almost more like partners than mentor/trainee.

Well, to me Haytham for certain was more of a business acquaintance than a Mentor. But I think it's also a matter of quality of character. I mean, structures, archetypes, they're just that, tools, they don't make good stories or good characters. Monroe is kinda a boring character. So would 'Monroe logically is supposed to be a Mentor, but he's not implemented very well' be a good compromise on this for you? :D



Fair point about multiple thresholds, but I still disagree about Le Chasseur. I think that you're right in that it should be this big momentous event when Shay kills his first former ally- sort of an Anakin "WHAT HAVE I DONE?" moment after killing Mace Windu- but the game doesn't really treat it as such. In fact, Le Chasseur makes it pretty clear that he's not killing Shay because of his attack on the fort, but because of his betrayal of the brotherhood. The "point of no return" is far gone at that point.

So, I guess you've convinced me that Crossing isn't the initiation, but I wouldn't say it's Le Chausser, either. I'd put it at the manuscript. As far as the lack of a quest to commit- well, technically there really is a quest, as the Assassins still can get the manuscript- Shay just doesn't know it yet.

I guess so. Alternatively, the whole section from the manuscript to killing Le Chasseur could be crossing the threshold :D

cawatrooper9
09-08-2016, 08:40 PM
Well, to me Haytham for certain was more of a business acquaintance than a Mentor. But I think it's also a matter of quality of character. I mean, structures, archetypes, they're just that, tools, they don't make good stories or good characters. Monroe is kinda a boring character. So would 'Monroe logically is supposed to be a Mentor, but he's not implemented very well' be a good compromise on this for you? :D


Haha, I suppose. I mean, if you ask some people on here, you'd have to settle for a similar "X was supposed to be this, but it was implemented poorly" scenario on all points of the outline of Rogue. Maybe we aren't being critical enough :p


I guess so. Alternatively, the whole section from the manuscript to killing Le Chasseur could be crossing the threshold :D
Or, once again, we could argue that Le Chasseur's death was just poorly implemented. That's the spirit. ;)

Farlander1991
09-08-2016, 09:22 PM
Haha, I suppose. I mean, if you ask some people on here, you'd have to settle for a similar "X was supposed to be this, but it was implemented poorly" scenario on all points of the outline of Rogue. Maybe we aren't being critical enough :p

Well, since you've mentioned it, I don't think Rogue is a well-implemented story at all. I'm just describing how the Hero's Journey would apply to Rogue, but as I said, a good structure is not a sign of quality :p

The positives of Rogue are the side activities and the world. The main campaign is... lefts a lot to be desired.

Without going into details, the only reason Shay joined the Templars is pretty much because the Templars listened. That's it. And that's very disappointing.

There's a more compelling Assassin-turned-Templar story in the form of ACR's side-plot about Vali cel Tradat (the Sentinel).

So, Vali was a Wallachian Assassin, right? At the time period some time before ACR, Wallachia was under Ottoman rule. But there was this guy, Vlad Tepes (i.e. Vlad Dracula), a Templar in the AC lore, he wasn't the nicest of guys (though some of stories about him for sure are exaggerated, as most of them were written by his enemies), but, among other things, he built up Wallachia's economy, fixed the criminal issues, removed corrupt rulership throughout the country, and, most importantly, drove the Ottomans away to make the country independent. So, he's a national hero in Romania for a reason.

(as a side note, the national hero of Moldova, where I'm from, Stefan cel Mare was kicking the Ottomans asses in our country at the time as well, though he was a much nicer personality than Vlad, even though they were cousins... but I digress)

And what happens is that the Ottomans with the help of Assassins (Ishak Pasha in particular) kill Vlad and take the country to themselves again. No more freedom, no more independence, and everything that was getting fixed in the country was getting to a state like it was before.

"If a man's philosophy does not let him protect his people, his home, and his family... what good can it do to the world?"

There's so many interesting questions to be explored in that situation. From what can be the positives of a Templar rulership, to when do the Assassin and Templar goals stop intersecting, to when is it worth to kill a Templar because they're a Templar? And so many other things. This is a very interesting conundrum that would make for a great Assassin turned Templar story, though we only see very little bits of it in a side-plot of one game.

And what is Rogue's conundrum? There's this artifact that destroys cities... and Assassins think it's ******** since the person who feels like he has killed a whole city is stressed out, so they're like 'whatever'... and continue doing that thing... and the Templars are like, 'yeah, earthquakes are bad, let's not have them'. I mean, it's so straightforward. So disappointing to me.