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topeira1980
09-07-2016, 11:37 AM
I am mostly interested in hearing from those who played the test -

I think that friendly damage (FD) should be more severe than what im seeing in the videos, where its mostly minimal. 1 VS 2 is hard enough and near impossible if all players are of the same level, but i am pretty sure that a less mitigated FD would change that in a way that makes sense.
if players really need to avoid hitting their teammates than they would be forced to circle the defender and attack from at least a 70 or 90 degrees to their attacking friend. this will allow the defender to put himself in a narrow corridor so prevent flanking and use the environment to his advantage in a tactical and satisfying way. this will also allow the defender to dodge or roll to line up the attackers one behind the other because it will actually prevent them from both attacking the defender at the same time.

Making 2vs1 harder on the attackers in a realistic way, IMO, will be acceptable to players if the proper indication for doing FD is present - so if i hit my friend than an indicator saying "friendly damage" could pop up with every hit. if i kill my friend than a message can pop up saying "Friendly kill" or something like that. If more UI elements is too much than i think that if when i wait for respawning there is a message saying something like "Team kill +3 seconds to respawn" this will indicate to me that i made a teamkill and should be more careful.

It looks like FD just changes the team mates' animation and causes him to react to being hit by his friend, but it doesnt even look like it cancels the friend's attacks on the defender so it looks like the mechanics are too forgiving in that matter....

what do you guys think?

General_Valor
09-07-2016, 01:41 PM
I made a similar thread a while ago about this subject. Personally I think that in addition to staggering friendlies, friendly damage should do full or half damage. People have mentioned fear of team kills or griefing but a system should be in place for that. In R6:S it only takes 2 or 3 team kills to be booted from the game, for instance.

handheld brando
09-07-2016, 01:45 PM
I am mostly interested in hearing from those who played the test -

I think that friendly damage (FD) should be more severe than what im seeing in the videos, where its mostly minimal. 1 VS 2 is hard enough and near impossible if all players are of the same level, but i am pretty sure that a less mitigated FD would change that in a way that makes sense.
if players really need to avoid hitting their teammates than they would be forced to circle the defender and attack from at least a 70 or 90 degrees to their attacking friend. this will allow the defender to put himself in a narrow corridor so prevent flanking and use the environment to his advantage in a tactical and satisfying way. this will also allow the defender to dodge or roll to line up the attackers one behind the other because it will actually prevent them from both attacking the defender at the same time.

Making 2vs1 harder on the attackers in a realistic way, IMO, will be acceptable to players if the proper indication for doing FD is present - so if i hit my friend than an indicator saying "friendly damage" could pop up with every hit. if i kill my friend than a message can pop up saying "Friendly kill" or something like that. If more UI elements is too much than i think that if when i wait for respawning there is a message saying something like "Team kill +3 seconds to respawn" this will indicate to me that i made a teamkill and should be more careful.

It looks like FD just changes the team mates' animation and causes him to react to being hit by his friend, but it doesnt even look like it cancels the friend's attacks on the defender so it looks like the mechanics are too forgiving in that matter....

what do you guys think?

I clamored for the same thing during the original alpha.

The stagger is usually what is supposed to deter them but alot of players tend not to care once they get into a 2v1 and they start swinging because they want the kill that badly.

The friendly stagger really helps the enemy out as they don't have to about one players attacks.

topeira1980
09-07-2016, 04:22 PM
interesting im not alone in this...

if swinging on your friendly doesnt hurt the hitting players themselves it will be hard to deter them from doing it (thus my idea of spawn delay on a team kill, but if you barely do any damage than you barely team kill so you never learn to stop doing that).
only if a player really wishes to avoid FD than he will try and implement tactics like flanking, surrounding or just not attacking when another friendly player is in front of them.

currently it looks like if a single defender can take out 2 enemies its a lot more due to luck than to a smart usage of REVENGE or the environment, and that's a great shame.
I think it could be amazing if a skilled player can funnel enemies thus fighting them one after the other. winning is still hard since the defender is likely to get hit a few times by each enemy so i dont see how this could break the flow of gameplay....

it's so strange to me that FD is so low right now.

Pallbearer7
09-07-2016, 06:43 PM
How would you guys feel about team damage where the player doing the team damage is the one who receives the damage?

Like if you and your friend are ganging up on a dude, and you hit your friend at the same time, YOU are then damaged for doing so. This is not realistic at all, but I feel it might be one of the only ways to really keep people from ganking. Causing more damage to your team mate could allow for terrible griefing, and that should never happen. Not enough damage on your team mate means you don't really care, even if they are staggering, if a jerk of a player is hitting team mates why should he EVER care if they're staggering? He wants to get the last hit anyway.

I think the only thing that will keep people from team hitting is if THEY themselves take damage. Then you can adjust the amount accordingly and it will only ever effect the player doing the irresponsible attacking.

Fatal-Feit
09-07-2016, 08:04 PM
How would you guys feel about team damage where the player doing the team damage is the one who receives the damage?

Like if you and your friend are ganging up on a dude, and you hit your friend at the same time, YOU are then damaged for doing so. This is not realistic at all, but I feel it might be one of the only ways to really keep people from ganking. Causing more damage to your team mate could allow for terrible griefing, and that should never happen. Not enough damage on your team mate means you don't really care, even if they are staggering, if a jerk of a player is hitting team mates why should he EVER care if they're staggering? He wants to get the last hit anyway.

I think the only thing that will keep people from team hitting is if THEY themselves take damage. Then you can adjust the amount accordingly and it will only ever effect the player doing the irresponsible attacking.

While I think the idea has merit, I just can't get behind it. It's too unrealistic for my taste. Perhaps penalize them with stamina drain instead, so they can stop tossing mindless attacks. Maybe remove a 3rd or 4th of their stamina for every hit they make on their teammate.

MathiasCB
09-07-2016, 08:18 PM
The current stagger is fine as it is, Hitting your teammate is already a crucial thing to do. We have already got Revenge mode to counter 1vMore situations. In the early stages of the game you'll experience ton of frustration towards 1vMore situations but as you gain more experience you'll come to realise how much you can capitalise on the stagger when they hit eachother. Some added damage would be fine but then we would most likely have to tweak down other things like revenge mode for example. Someone coming in from the side blindly swinging his weapon will only help the solo person. I'd say the friendly fire is good as it is right now.

I've said this multiple times Before, 1vMore situations will be hard in the beginning, but once you get into the game a bit more you'll understand exactly how you want to play against that.
There's been numerous of tips about how to deal with it across the forum.

Dead1y-Derri
09-07-2016, 09:22 PM
I do also agree that friendly fire damage needs to be much more of a cannon force.I think it would make a lot of people think twice about ganging or joining a team mate in finishing off the same enemy.

Pallbearer7
09-07-2016, 10:08 PM
The current stagger is fine as it is...


While I think the idea has merit, I just can't get behind it. It's too unrealistic for my taste. Perhaps penalize them with stamina drain instead...

Mathias, I'll take your word over anything since you've actually played the game. I am sure that 1vmore situations are totally something you can handle if you know what you're doing, totally makes sense, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Fatal, I think you're right. Health drain was the first thing that I thought of, so not much refinement went into my idea. Stamina drain would be less noticeably unrealistic, but still would punish the offender more. I think that's a great idea.

While I do believe that you can handle 1vMore situations yourself, I think it will still be quite annoying to see everyone attempting to gank just because there's not really much punishment or reason not to, even if you can handle it yourself most of the time. You can handle it, yes, but it's still really frustrating to run into it a lot, and after playing the game day in and day out I think it will wear on me. I don't want to idly think about playing the game and think "well, time to deal with legions of gankers again". Even if I can do it. I don't want that to be the case.

topeira1980
09-07-2016, 10:14 PM
i think that more damage to team mates will cause players to some times kill their friends. if killing a friend will penalize the killer in longer spawn times and if you kill a team mate 3 times in a round than you are banned than this seem like enough discouragement.

And i just cant see how a veteran player can improve upon handling ganking. not against players who are equal in level and experience. if this player would have a 50% chance in a 1V1 than surely he would have a really slim chance in a 1Vmore.... unless a player can utilize the higher attackers number to his advantage, but there is no advantage if two attacking players barely hurt each other. the revenge is nice, but i think that if hitting team mates would stagger them severely and cause equal damage than there would be a lot less need for an artificial mechanic like REVENGE.

BudBro49
09-08-2016, 02:45 AM
You need to do at least 75% damage to your team to make a significant impact to the game I believe.. Otherwise, you're just going to have people spam light attack/heavy attacks without any real consequence, because as soon as you're done killing your opponent, you can just run to a friendly controlled area and heal up... I also think that if you get below a certain amount of health, that you should be delayed from being able to heal, even if just for a little bit.. That will help make a good fight feel a lot more visceral because you can't just go heal up immediately and get back into the fight. But I digress...

Damage done to team mates should be significant, but there should be ample warnings of impending doom if continued, done repeatedly, etc. Team killers can be managed in a great many ways, its not something hard to do. lol Its sad that these people may ruin a game or two, but ultimately, the game will hurt itself more not having this feature in the game.

Revenge mode, in my opinion... Is better suited for 3+ opponents anyway... With teams that play more cautiously, you don't need revenge as much because they won't be spamming because they don't want to hurt/kill one another, and if they did, you can take better advantage of it. Revenge should be for when you just are overwhelmed... 1v2 shouldn't be overwhelming... I believe a skilled player should be capable of doing so, but with friendly damage as it is now.. you can just spam and win the majority of your situations so long as you outnumber the opponent. 2v1, 3v1, 4v1.

topeira1980
09-08-2016, 07:33 AM
You need to do at least 75% damage to your team to make a significant impact to the game I believe.. Otherwise, you're just going to have people spam light attack/heavy attacks without any real consequence, because as soon as you're done killing your opponent, you can just run to a friendly controlled area and heal up... I also think that if you get below a certain amount of health, that you should be delayed from being able to heal, even if just for a little bit.. That will help make a good fight feel a lot more visceral because you can't just go heal up immediately and get back into the fight. But I digress...

Damage done to team mates should be significant, but there should be ample warnings of impending doom if continued, done repeatedly, etc. Team killers can be managed in a great many ways, its not something hard to do. lol Its sad that these people may ruin a game or two, but ultimately, the game will hurt itself more not having this feature in the game.

Revenge mode, in my opinion... Is better suited for 3+ opponents anyway... With teams that play more cautiously, you don't need revenge as much because they won't be spamming because they don't want to hurt/kill one another, and if they did, you can take better advantage of it. Revenge should be for when you just are overwhelmed... 1v2 shouldn't be overwhelming... I believe a skilled player should be capable of doing so, but with friendly damage as it is now.. you can just spam and win the majority of your situations so long as you outnumber the opponent. 2v1, 3v1, 4v1.

i agree. from the footage we've seen once two players are ganking a lone warrior they neglect all tactics and spam attacks because they know their advantage is by attacking as often as possible.
i really hope this will change because in a 1V1 the game shines and the combat looks tactical and thoughtful.
in a 1Vmore all tactics go out the window, while this is the opportunity to utilize the most tactics by using positioning and environment.

Fatal-Feit
09-08-2016, 08:02 AM
You see, I don't think dealing more damage to your teammates is the best solution. Not everyone is going to learn from that unless there is a noticeable drawback for themselves, and banning a little extreme. They should simply penalize people who can't restrain themselves from hurting nearby teammates, not their victims, haha.

Pallbearer7 and I suggested stamina loss. That way, those who keeps hitting nearby teammates will realize it will only make it harder to keep attacking. Let's say hitting our teammates removes 50% stamina and gives a quick notification on the side saying something like ''friend fire penalty''. After two hits at a teammate, it's easy to identify their mistake in the moment and realize that it's only going to make things more difficult for themselves, as they notice they can barely attack or maneuver anymore.

MathiasCB
09-08-2016, 04:05 PM
i agree. from the footage we've seen once two players are ganking a lone warrior they neglect all tactics and spam attacks because they know their advantage is by attacking as often as possible.
i really hope this will change because in a 1V1 the game shines and the combat looks tactical and thoughtful.
in a 1Vmore all tactics go out the window, while this is the opportunity to utilize the most tactics by using positioning and environment.

I don't want to go on to deep about this since this is on the public forum. If you get into the Alpha I'd love to talk more about this in-depth but all i can say say right now is that my opinion of this is: It's completly wrong, short answer is simply ''Revenge mode''. This however, is MY opinion.


You see, I don't think dealing more damage to your teammates is the best solution. Not everyone is going to learn from that unless there is a noticeable drawback for themselves, and banning a little extreme. They should simply penalize people who can't restrain themselves from hurting nearby teammates, not their victims, haha.

Pallbearer7 and I suggested stamina loss. That way, those who keeps hitting nearby teammates will realize it will only make it harder to keep attacking. Let's say hitting our teammates removes 50% stamina and gives a quick notification on the side saying something like ''friend fire penalty''. After two hits at a teammate, it's easy to identify their mistake in the moment and realize that it's only going to make things more difficult for themselves, as they notice they can barely attack or maneuver anymore.

At the same time as it would be nice to punish someone when it comes to hitting a teammate, we can't discourage teamwork in modes where the gameplay is more or less ABOUT teamwork. While the suggestions sounds neat, we still have to think about the current ways we have to counter 1vMore situations. In this case, revenge mode. Don't get me wrong, I love the suggestions when it comes to removing stamina or more damage to allies, but as of right now all I've seen is talk about how to make it harder for the gankers without tweaking other things like revenge mode.

I know that everyone has not been able to test it out YET. I also believe most who will be able to go all out in this upcoming alpha will hate the 1vMore situations even more than that of right now. But given time I wholeheartedly believe that 1vMore situations will be seen from a whole new perspective and accepted as it currently is.

I hated the revenge feature a lot until I actually got my hands on it to try, it's a decent solution. However, I still believe that we would be better off with other solutions, I'd go with a mix of 50% damage and 25% stamina removal per hit. Adding more damage to allies wouldn't work at all by itself, the one trying to killsteal wont really give a damn. But anything like that WITH revenge mode is too much. Maybe there would even be an option with the current damage, slight stamina removal and a stagger for both, the one getting hit AND the one hitting. Giving the Solo player an advantage, an opportunity to either run or make his move. That way it will be more dependant on the Solo player what happens.

So, once again. We cannot discourage teamwork in a mode that is based on teamwork.

Pallbearer7
09-08-2016, 05:37 PM
At the same time as it would be nice to punish someone when it comes to hitting a teammate, we can't discourage teamwork in modes where the gameplay is more or less ABOUT teamwork. While the suggestions sounds neat, we still have to think about the current ways we have to counter 1vMore situations. In this case, revenge mode. Don't get me wrong, I love the suggestions when it comes to removing stamina or more damage to allies, but as of right now all I've seen is talk about how to make it harder for the gankers without tweaking other things like revenge mode...

...We cannot discourage teamwork in a mode that is based on teamwork.

I do like the revenge system. I think the big thing I'm trying to point out here is that the Revenge system allows us to deal with 1vMore, but it does not alter the chances of a 1vMore happening. I really really don't want to have the same anger-inducing memories that I have of Dark Souls of gank squads and just horrible horrible match after match of people ganging up because there's no reason not to. It's not really about being able to handle it, I'm sure a good player plus the revenge system allows you to handle at least 1v2, but I just don't want that situation to become rampant and extremely regular just because there's no reason not to gang up. I think Fatal's idea of stamina drain is a really great one. With proper teamwork there's no reason to be hitting your team mate that much, so it still gives incentive to be careful about your positioning, even more so, actually. I just want something to tell the ganker- no, MAKE THE GANKER FEEL that they're doing something wrong instead of just hitting their friend for low damage and a stagger that will anger the receiver more than the giver.

MathiasCB
09-08-2016, 08:20 PM
I do like the revenge system.(1) I think the big thing I'm trying to point out here is that the Revenge system allows us to deal with 1vMore, but it does not alter the chances of a 1vMore happening. I really really don't want to have the same anger-inducing memories that I have of Dark Souls of gank squads and just horrible horrible match after match of people ganging up because there's no reason not to. It's not really about being able to handle it, I'm sure a good player plus the revenge system allows you to handle at least 1v2, but I just don't want that situation to become rampant and extremely regular just because there's no reason not to gang up. I think Fatal's idea of stamina drain is a really great one. (2)With proper teamwork there's no reason to be hitting your team mate that much, so it still gives incentive to be careful about your positioning, even more so, actually. I just want something to tell the ganker- no, MAKE THE GANKER FEEL that they're doing something wrong instead of just hitting their friend for low damage and a stagger that will anger the receiver more than the giver.

(1)It does allow you to handle the situation better yes, but it's also a reason why you should not gang up on someone as revenge mode is in there to battle that situation. We should not ADD anything that will discourage teamwork and ''alter the chances of a 1vMore happening.'' Which is what you will do if you're trying to get people to NOT gang up. We should encourage teamwork not discourage.

(2) This is very much true, there is not really any reason for it but with the staggering effect plus revenge mode it will be a punishment for both on the ''More'' side. If we were to punish them even further it would be way too easy for the solo person. I could give you an example. We've got P1, P2 and Mr Solo. P1 and solo are fighting, few blocks here and there. P2 comes in and swings blindly hitting P1 and also getting blocked by Solo. Revenge mode gets a nasty boost since it's 1vMore and gets revenge mode, P2 is now out of stamina, P1 has been staggered and Mr Solo has revenge mode.

With the staggering in place plus the revenge mode you'll be able to capitalise on that very well. As soon as one of them hit their ally YOU will be able to punish them. Just hit the guy getting staggered. Never stay still and go for dodges more than blocks and force them to stay Close to eachother. If anything is going to be added to friendly fire, Revenge mode MUST be tweaked. Need to start to think more about what we already have than what we could add. As of right now it is my belief that nothing needs to be added.

Pallbearer7
09-08-2016, 09:23 PM
We should not ADD anything that will discourage teamwork and ''alter the chances of a 1vMore happening.'' Which is what you will do if you're trying to get people to NOT gang up. We should encourage teamwork not discourage...

...If we were to punish them even further it would be way too easy for the solo person...
...
With the staggering in place plus the revenge mode you'll be able to capitalise on that very well. As soon as one of them hit their ally YOU will be able to punish them... ...Need to start to think more about what we already have than what we could add.

I was getting a bit gung ho and personal about my anger at ganking from Dark Souls. That stuff gave me PTSD. Yes, yes, I mostly mean that if it's 1v2 I want it to be a team effort on their part, I just don't want people swinging wildly and stepping on each other's feet so to speak just to try and get that sweet kill credit. It looks embarrassing and sad and like they're foaming at the mouth just to get points and see numbers go up more than their friend who's also fighting with them. The kind of play style that feeds the whole "where's the honor in For Honor" kinda thing. I'm not sure if that can be helped much, though, that's just how people are in online competitive...

I suppose I just wish more people played video games for the experience of playing the games. Instead a lot of people like to just play to get really good and show that they're better than everyone else. It should be about the journey and not the destination/bragging rights.

MathiasCB
09-09-2016, 12:47 AM
I was getting a bit gung ho and personal about my anger at ganking from Dark Souls. That stuff gave me PTSD. Yes, yes, I mostly mean that if it's 1v2 I want it to be a team effort on their part, I just don't want people swinging wildly and stepping on each other's feet so to speak just to try and get that sweet kill credit. It looks embarrassing and sad and like they're foaming at the mouth just to get points and see numbers go up more than their friend who's also fighting with them. The kind of play style that feeds the whole "where's the honor in For Honor" kinda thing. I'm not sure if that can be helped much, though, that's just how people are in online competitive...

I suppose I just wish more people played video games for the experience of playing the games. Instead a lot of people like to just play to get really good and show that they're better than everyone else. It should be about the journey and not the destination/bragging rights.

I couldn't agree with you more. Pretty much all of it. You can force them towards team effort as a solo player, force them to not swing wildly or lose. If we both get in next week, hit me up and i'll let you know exactly how I deal with it. If you would like that ofcourse. Then I think you'll see why im saying it's already balanced enough. ''Wild swingers'' are easy to deal with since they hit their mates so much, all you have to do is punish that behaviour as the solo guy.

BudBro49
09-09-2016, 02:17 AM
I believe doing only "Fatigue" damage isn't enough of an impact to deter players from just stepping on each others toes and going spam happy in a 2+v1. You'll need to do friendly fire, and nothing that is half-assed. If its a small amount of friendly fire damage, they will just continue to spam attack, because once that person is down they can just run to a friendly controlled point and heal right up... Maybe we can see a system where you can't immediately heal yourself after a fight. Like a bleed timer, and you can't heal during that bleed.
Staggering + Revenge mode isn't enough I think.

Perhaps have an amount of friendly fire, and then have a "Thorns" like effect to the player hitting his team mate after it happens a few times. Hit your team mate once, do normal friendly fire damage, hit him twice, do less friendly fire damage, do a bit of damage to yourself, hit him a third time, do minimal friendly fire damage, do full damage to yourself. Just a thought. Doesn't have to be exactly this, just an idea.

PowerSenpai
09-09-2016, 09:36 AM
Mathias, I'll take your word over anything since you've actually played the game. I am sure that 1vmore situations are totally something you can handle if you know what you're doing, totally makes sense, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Fatal, I think you're right. Health drain was the first thing that I thought of, so not much refinement went into my idea. Stamina drain would be less noticeably unrealistic, but still would punish the offender more. I think that's a great idea.

While I do believe that you can handle 1vMore situations yourself, I think it will still be quite annoying to see everyone attempting to gank just because there's not really much punishment or reason not to, even if you can handle it yourself most of the time. You can handle it, yes, but it's still really frustrating to run into it a lot, and after playing the game day in and day out I think it will wear on me. I don't want to idly think about playing the game and think "well, time to deal with legions of gankers again". Even if I can do it. I don't want that to be the case.

I don't know, i also played the last alpha, but i feel like your suggestion works better. Also, 1Vmore situations should be pretty impossible if the enemies who are ganking you are even remotely coordinated when they attack.

I really like the idea of taking damage when attacking friendlies, but i also feel like this would mean people would not care about running in front of your swings, so i prefer if both you and the teammate takes damage from that team hit, so as to motivate both players to not get hit, and not to hit.