PDA

View Full Version : I wish there was some sort of "HARDCORE" mode



topeira1980
09-06-2016, 02:40 PM
Battlefield has a hardcore mode where there are less UI elements and more punishing damage models that make it unique.
I would love to see something like that in FH as well:

Missing UI elements like no Radar, no enemy health and stamina, no enemy stance indicators (judge by their animation. not the UI), no enenmy banners on top of their heads to be easily seen from afar etc.... the UI will show only info that a warrior on the battlefield would know - which is basically info about his own team. not on the enemy's team.

Also friendly damage and grunts damage would be much higher. this way more in depth tactics would be necessary - like not engaging human enemies in the midst of their own grunts, not ganking thoughtlessly on a single player but rather - flanking him when possible, or waiting turns if the single fighter manages to position himself correctly, slightly longer respawn times to emphasis the importance of staying alive or executing etc etc etc.


being able to parry enemies by judging their animation instead of the UI is something i would love to try and do. in ANY game where i can turn off counter markers i do (like AC, like Shadow of mordor, Batman etc) because there is something a lot more satisfying in judging attacks according to the same parameter as in a real fight - the movement of the enemy, instead of by an artificial addition to the screen. This is the main thing i would love to experience in a HC mode.

What are your thoughts?

N1GTHCR0W
09-06-2016, 02:50 PM
Battlefield has a hardcore mode where there are less UI elements and more punishing damage models that make it unique.
I would love to see something like that in FH as well:

Missing UI elements like no Radar, no enemy health and stamina, no enemy stance indicators (judge by their animation. not the UI), no enenmy banners on top of their heads to be easily seen from afar etc.... the UI will show only info that a warrior on the battlefield would know - which is basically info about his own team. not on the enemy's team.

Also friendly damage and grunts damage would be much higher. this way more in depth tactics would be necessary - like not engaging human enemies in the midst of their own grunts, not ganking thoughtlessly on a single player but rather - flanking him when possible, or waiting turns if the single fighter manages to position himself correctly, slightly longer respawn times to emphasis the importance of staying alive or executing etc etc etc.


being able to parry enemies by judging their animation instead of the UI is something i would love to try and do. in ANY game where i can turn off counter markers i do (like AC, like Shadow of mordor, Batman etc) because there is something a lot more satisfying in judging attacks according to the same parameter as in a real fight - the movement of the enemy, instead of by an artificial addition to the screen. This is the main thing i would love to experience in a HC mode.

What are your thoughts?

i agree, not to all, but i agree

handheld brando
09-06-2016, 05:09 PM
no enemy stance indicators (judge by their animation. not the UI)I


Orochi's and any other fast and speedy characters would dominate nearly uncontested.

Their animations are extremely fast. Much faster than most of the other characters and certain attacks on certain heroes look like they come from one direction but actually come from the opposite. Another thing is you would never be able to catch feints from a good player.

I know I sound like a broken record but these UI elements are there for a reason and without them the game is kind of unplayable. Watching animations will get you killed pretty easily if you rely on them and the more skilled players will just utilize abilities with intentionally deceptive animations to dominate this type of mode.

MathiasCB
09-06-2016, 07:59 PM
I'd be fine with this if this was limited to some kind of CUSTOM match but not in any official matchmake. Just like Brando-boo said, the UI is there for a reason.

topeira1980
09-06-2016, 09:50 PM
Orochi's and any other fast and speedy characters would dominate nearly uncontested.

Their animations are extremely fast. Much faster than most of the other characters and certain attacks on certain heroes look like they come from one direction but actually come from the opposite. Another thing is you would never be able to catch feints from a good player.

I know I sound like a broken record but these UI elements are there for a reason and without them the game is kind of unplayable. Watching animations will get you killed pretty easily if you rely on them and the more skilled players will just utilize abilities with intentionally deceptive animations to dominate this type of mode.

maybe you played the test version and know more than I about this and obviously i agree - the UI is there for a reason. but that reason, IMO, is first and foremost - accessibility. it's to allow players to grasp the game mechanics quickly and easily.
Showing the score is "necessary". showing the stances is "helpful". not the same thing. there is a counter marker/icons in the games i stated above as well, and playing without those is also harder.... but completely do-able after a bit of practice and i think that combat in for honor without the stance indicators will also be viable for one major reason - conditioning.

i've been doing capoeira for 20 years now. one of the reasons for honor appeals to me is because it is a lot like capoeira : in capoeira 95% of your attacks are kicks to the head of 3 kinds - kick to the right, kick to the left and kicks forward. and to offensively defend yourself (defend yourself and convert your defense to offence) you need to react in the proper direction or you will move into the enemy's leg and get kicked. reminds you of anything? :)
In the beginning, when you learn capoeira, it's really confusing because it's hard to read where the kicks are coming from. later you learn kicks that appear to go from one direction but actually come from another - we will call them "misleading kicks". then you learn to do faints for one kick that turns to another kick. then you learn to do a faint of one kick that turns to a "misleading" kick - that's like 2 or 3 faints in one move. so very confusing, yet veteran capoeiristas dont get kicked in the head all the time. why?
conditioning. after a while you learn to recognize nuances on the movements of the enemy and your body immediately reacts correctly...
well... most of the time... :P

i believe that the same would work in For Honor - if you play it enough than you would learn to react. i know it will take far longer than if you had the UI there, but that's the point.
Maybe attacks will be SO hard to read and react to that blocking and parring would become obsolete and everyone will just dodge or something, but im not completely certain, and if there was a true desire to make a mode like that - farther balances could have been made to make parrying and blocking more important or effective compared to... not blocking. or make the fast attacks that are super hard to block much weaker.

i believe that if there was a will there would have been a way. at least for unofficial games. just like the HC modes in BF are not official. you have to "request" them.

handheld brando
09-06-2016, 10:23 PM
maybe you played the test version and know more than I about this and obviously I agree - the UI is there for a reason. but that reason, IMO, is first and foremost - accessibility. it's to allow players to grasp the game mechanics quickly and easily.
Showing the score is "necessary". showing the stances is "helpful". not the same thing. there is a counter marker/icons in the games I stated above as well, and playing without those is also harder.... but completely do-able after a bit of practice and I think that combat in for honor without the stance indicators will also be viable for one major reason - conditioning.

I've been doing capoeira for 20 years now. one of the reasons for honor appeals to me is because it is a lot like capoeira : in capoeira, 95% of your attacks are kicked to the head of 3 kinds - kick to the right, kick to the left and kicks forward. and to offensively defend yourself (defend yourself and convert your defense to offense) you need to react in the proper direction or you will move into the enemy's leg and get kicked. reminds you of anything? :)
In the beginning, when you learn capoeira, it's really confusing because it's hard to read where the kicks are coming from. later you learn kicks that appear to go from one direction but actually come from another - we will call them "misleading kicks". then you learn to do faints for one kick that turns to another kick. then you learn to do a faint of one kick that turns to a "misleading" kick - that's like 2 or 3 faints in one move. so very confusing, yet veteran capoeiristas wont get kicked in the head all the time. why?
conditioning. after a while, you learn to recognize nuances on the movements of the enemy and your body immediately reacts correctly...
well... most of the time... :P

I believe that the same would work in For Honor - if you play it enough than you would learn to react. I know it will take far longer than if you had the UI there, but that's the point.
Maybe attacks will be SO hard to read and react to that blocking and parring would become obsolete and everyone will just dodge or something, but I'm not completely certain, and if there was a true desire to make a mode like that - farther balances could have been made to make parrying and blocking more important or effective compared to... not blocking. or make the fast attacks that are super hard to block much weaker.

i believe that if there was a will there would have been a way. at least for unofficial games. just like the HC modes in BF are not official. you have to "request" them.

This is not capoeira and there are limitations in the animations where in RL you can move your own body individually. in this game you only have control of your overall position and weapon stance never the full range of motion a body is capable of.

It's also pointless to compare this game to Capoeira because again this game is about martial combat within the confines of the games rules and limitations.

You are correct in assuming that I have played the game and I can tell you right now that will all the times I have gotten to play the game and with all the skill and practice I have had (I believe in the PCTT I put in about 3.5-4 days worth of hours) in this game, Not having indicators would make the game impossibly difficult for everyone. I used to watch animations and to "feel" when I should parry the attack and 90 percent of the time that ended up getting me killed.

The animations are deceptive sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally. I can do a top attack as the Kensei and almost instantaneously switch to my right (My right side is slightly hidden depending on camera angle) from your view by your own body and hit you and you wouldn't even know what happened without the indicator.

If I were to hop on an Orochi in this mode I can guarantee you tha against an equally killed player who was used to the indicators like I am would lose to me 9-10 times. If you were to go up against Kaze with his Orochi in this mode you wouldn't stand a chance and he would combo you down before you even realized what happened. I won't say anything about your experience at playing the game because frankly not everyone has had the same luxury that I have had with being a star player and getting to meet all the Devs.

I will however say that once you play the game you will feel very differently and you will understand why I feel the way I do about the game. I believe Willow actually felt the same way once about the indicators but after having gotten to play it a few times I believe he feels similarly to how I do now.

MisterWillow
09-07-2016, 04:24 AM
I believe Willow actually felt the same way once about the indicators but after having gotten to play it a few times I believe he feels similarly to how I do now.

Not entirely.

I think that, even with the deceptive stabs of the Kensei---to say nothing of the potentially deceptive animations of the Valkyrie or Nobushi---and how fast the Assassins are, I believe that, given enough time to familiarise yourself with the animations, it would be entirely possible to fight effectively without any indicators whatsoever, provided you were only fighting one person.

In Dominion (along with the other 4v4 modes) there are sometimes (read as often) too many things occurring simultaneously that it really is impossible to keep track of everything (or very, very near so).

I think that everything should have a toggle, or preferably a transparency slider, the latter being useful in either weening people off indicators, or people who simply want to make them slightly less obvious. Despite my view that the attack indicators would be necessary in 4v4, I would like to make them a little less visually bombastic. I quite liked the slight transparency of the 2015 attack indicators, and would like that applied to the current ones.

http://i.imgur.com/oWUpWa9.gif

Imagine the current indicators (so red, and not varying in size), but this level of transparency.

topeira1980
09-07-2016, 08:30 AM
hi guys.

thanks for chiming in. since i havent played the test than i have to trust your opinion more than my own :P
in a last resort to defend my opinion - in real life capoeira there is nearly infinite amount of body movements that you can do to decieve. in a video game there is a limited set of animations. it's easier to recognize them all. so i think that once you learn that the orochi sword is hidden from view than it means a right attack is incoming.... or something of that logic. without the indicators the brain will start looking for other "tells" and it will find them, if they are consistent... and with a limited set of animation this meas they are.
take a look at Fallout and Deus ex or farcry for example - farcry 3 and 4 and deus ex highlight the objects you can interact with. why? because the devs think that without them a player wouldnt be able to recognize the plants and objects he can interact with. FO4 does not highlight these things, yet lo and behold - players know exactly what they can and can't open and interact. how come? because the players brain learns to look for certain shapes and colors of objects its familiar with as interactable. mods turn off these highlights in Farcry 4 and i could do fine finding things. it took a while and its harder, but its really do-able.
So that is why i think that if there is no other choice than to forget the UI indicators and to start subconsciously look for other "tells" - the brain will adapt.

another example for this - fighting games. in these games you have no tells, yet players can block a lot of the attacks after experience. thing is - it takes more time to learn. it requires dedication on the behalf of the players and a will to embrace a HARDCORE mode....


HOWEVER, i guess some warriors are too fast for this and seeing the indicator shift sides slightly before attacks is the necessarily tell you need to block. i think that in games the rule of thumb is to allow at least 0.5 seconds for the player to react. otherwise - too fast for the brain to pick up the tells. in AC:Syndicate you simply CANT counter in time because the animations are faster than 0.5 seconds. so i guess if UBI wants players to block and parry than the faster warriors will be problematic while the slightly slower ones are OK with my concept.
on top of that - there is the issue of more than 2 players attacking on defender.

A slightly unrelated question:
do you think there is a way to tell how to block a second attacker without the indicators? because it looks like the indicator that tells you where to block an out-of-sight enemy only points to his general location\direction (if he is to your right than no matter what kind of attack he does - you need to block right). is this true?


And to some things up - as willow said - just give us options. at least i could try and SP campaign without these markers if i ever play it a second time. kinda like a NG+ in batman games.

Fatal-Feit
09-07-2016, 09:06 AM
A slightly unrelated question:
do you think there is a way to tell how to block a second attacker without the indicators? because it looks like the indicator that tells you where to block an out-of-sight enemy only points to his general location\direction (if he is to your right than no matter what kind of attack he does - you need to block right). is this true?

To block external attacks, all you need to do is guard the direction of their attacks. So yes, that's true.

handheld brando
09-07-2016, 09:37 AM
Not entirely.

I think that, even with the deceptive stabs of the Kensei---to say nothing of the potentially deceptive animations of the Valkyrie or Nobushi---and how fast the Assassins are, I believe that, given enough time to familiarise yourself with the animations, it would be entirely possible to fight effectively without any indicators whatsoever, provided you were only fighting one person.

In Dominion (along with the other 4v4 modes) there are sometimes (read as often) too many things occurring simultaneously that it really is impossible to keep track of everything (or very, very near so).

I think that everything should have a toggle, or preferably a transparency slider, the latter being useful in either weening people off indicators, or people who simply want to make them slightly less obvious. Despite my view that the attack indicators would be necessary in 4v4, I would like to make them a little less visually bombastic. I quite liked the slight transparency of the 2015 attack indicators, and would like that applied to the current ones.

http://i.imgur.com/oWUpWa9.gif

Imagine the current indicators (so red, and not varying in size), but this level of transparency.

In that Video the devs all had the indicators, It just wasn't shown on the main screen this is evidenced by the Alpha that came later on that.

Can you parry an attack without an indicator?
Sure

If there was no indicators I could feint my power attacks into light attacks all day long and you would never be able to catch them. If you remember the thing we were talking about yesterday then you remember how I was talking about how quickly the Warden can feint and how it even caught me off guard despite having as much experience as I do. Without those indicators It would have been albeit impossible to catch those feints at all.

The first thing I teach people is to not watch the animations because thats what most players do and it gets them killed all the time. If you were trying to catch a Warden feint or an Orochi feint by animations alone you would get slaughtered without fail. I guarantee it.

If you want toggles thats fine I can dig that but when you turn around and get slaughtered all the time then the only person to blame is yourself and I can absolutely guarantee that you will turn quite a few indicators back on. Not only would the fast attacks of an Orochi be able to stomp you but their back dash attack would be impossible to parry because of your characters body blocking the animation itself.

Not only that but some characters like the [redacted] have a guard break which comes from underneath you and is insanely fast and can be feinted insanely fast from any other attack that same character can also feint his attacks quite literally instanteously into another attack and without the indicator you would get hit by it 98 percent of the time.

Also having the health bar allows me to play with my foes as I can bait them into going aggressive with low health have them make mistakes. Without a health indicator you would never be able to do that. Turning off indicators does nothing but give yourself a disadvantage and would give people like me and Kaze easy ways to abuse specific moves to take you down.

handheld brando
09-07-2016, 09:45 AM
hi guys.

thanks for chiming in. since i havent played the test than i have to trust your opinion more than my own :P
in a last resort to defend my opinion - in real life capoeira there is nearly infinite amount of body movements that you can do to decieve. in a video game there is a limited set of animations. it's easier to recognize them all. so i think that once you learn that the orochi sword is hidden from view than it means a right attack is incoming.... or something of that logic. without the indicators the brain will start looking for other "tells" and it will find them, if they are consistent... and with a limited set of animation this meas they are. .

It could also be a feint or a guard break or a dash attack or a heavy attack or a light attack. It could be a frame cancel and a few other things.

Just because I attack you on the right doesn't mean I am going to commit to that attack. If you thought the attack was going to come from the right there is multiple options I could take to fool you key one being the feint. The Kensei for example, can feint a heavy attack into another heavy or into a light and I can do it from either direction or I can outright cancel the attack and do a guard break. Without that indicator you would never know what I hit you with. Certain actions also guarantee certain moves.

When you get your hands on it you will see what I am talking about.

Also just because there are limited animations doesn't mean that every animation is the same. The Animation video they made explains that the system finds the animation that will give the best desired outcome from a list of animations and applies that to what they are doing. If I understood that correctly it means that some animations function the same but appear differently. We also don't have the full range of motion that a body does so If I do a top attack its always going to do a top attack but the method of how the attack appears may appear slightly different.

Trying to deal with the Raiders power attack by animations alone will get you hit 99 percent of the time unless you specifically know the timing of when it hits and even then its a toss up. I have seen better players than me get hit by the attack regardless of their skill.

MisterWillow
09-07-2016, 10:09 AM
In that Video the devs all had the indicators, It just wasn't shown on the main screen this is evidenced by the Alpha that came later on that.

That isn't from the HUD-less E3 demo from a couple years ago, it's from the multiplayer walkthrough they put out shortly after.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp3NKQlJPuo

It has indicators, they're just different. They have a sort of transparency that is still evident, but that flows a little better with the animations and whatnot. I like the new ones more overall, because I agree with Fatal's assessment that the old ones tend to cover animations (specifically heavies), but I'd like them to have the sort of transparency seen in the early version.


Can you parry an attack without an indicator?
Sure

Unless it's a light attack, the indicator's already flashed by the time you need to press the button to parry, and even certain characters' lights are slow enough to compensate for.


If there was no indicators I could feint my power attacks into light attacks all day long and you would never be able to catch them. If you remember the thing we were talking about yesterday then you remember how I was talking about how quickly the Warden can feint and how it even caught me off guard despite having as much experience as I do. Without those indicators It would have been albeit impossible to catch those feints at all.

I'm not entirely sure about that. If you watch the shoulders and arms, it's pretty obvious where the attack is coming from.

I admit that it would take some practise, and would be extremely difficult, but that hardly means it would be impossible.


The first thing I teach people is to not watch the animations because thats what most players do and it gets them killed all the time. If you were trying to catch a Warden feint or an Orochi feint by animations alone you would get slaughtered without fail. I guarantee it.

In Dominion maybe, but in Duels, where you can focus, I think it would be doable.


If you want toggles thats fine I can dig that but when you turn around and get slaughtered all the time then the only person to blame is yourself and I can absolutely guarantee that you will turn quite a few indicators back on. Not only would the fast attacks of an Orochi be able to stomp you but their back dash attack would be impossible to parry because of your characters body blocking the animation itself.

All of that is a timing issue. You have to time when the blade falls. The timing can be deduced by blocking the attack a few times.


Also having the health bar allows me to play with my foes as I can bait them into going aggressive with low health have them make mistakes. Without a health indicator you would never be able to do that. Turning off indicators does nothing but give yourself a disadvantage and would give people like me and Kaze easy ways to abuse specific moves to take you down.

So, what's the problem with the option? Maybe they only want to turn everything off in Campaign and have a true 'cinematic' experience; maybe they get used to it in single-player and want to play that way in multiplayer; even if it does disadvantage them. I don't see the harm in the option.


The Animation video they made explains that the system finds the animation that will give the best desired outcome from a list of animations and applies that to what they are doing. If I understood that correctly it means that some animations function the same but appear differently. We also don't have the full range of motion that a body does so If I do a top attack its always going to do a top attack but the method of how the attack appears may appear slightly different.

It's not different enough to mistake it for a side attack. There's only one example where it could be iffy, and that difference can be learned over time and accounted for.

The animation vid was also more about character locomotion over variable terrain. The attack animations, while maybe not 100% identical every single time, are not different enough for you to mistake one for another. At least, not in my experience


Trying to deal with the Raiders power attack by animations alone will get you hit 99 percent of the time unless you specifically know the timing of when it hits and even then its a toss up. I have seen better players than me get hit by the attack regardless of their skill.

That's how I parry them, through the animation. They're so telegraphed that the indicator goes away before you need to press an input to parry it. It's the same for the Kensei---in fact, most of the time I parry Kensei's, I'm stunned, so I have no indicators anyway.

handheld brando
09-07-2016, 11:11 AM
That isn't from the HUD-less E3 demo from a couple years ago, it's from the multiplayer walkthrough they put out shortly after.



It has indicators, they're just different. They have a sort of transparency that is still evident, but that flows a little better with the animations and whatnot. I like the new ones more overall, because I agree with Fatal's assessment that the old ones tend to cover animations (specifically heavies), but I'd like them to have the sort of transparency seen in the early version.


That's the Pre-Alpha indicators.

All of that is way before the characters can combo the way they can now. Orochi's didn't have their counters and Wardens couldn't combo anywhere near as well as they can now. If you also watch that video you can see that they actually do have some of the current indicators now it's just the indicator when the attack is different. You can also see the Warden do his top counter attack but it looks different and there is zero visual indicator that that is what he did. It looks like he just blocked the attack and instantly retaliated. For a new player that would be confusing a hell and they would wonder why their character couldn't do that.

Not only that but the indicators that they had during that video warned of the attack WAY before the attack even came close to finishing its animation making the telegraphing insane.



I'm not entirely sure about that. If you watch the shoulders and arms, it's pretty obvious where the attack is coming from.

I admit that it would take some practice, and would be extremely difficult, but that hardly means it would be impossible.


if you watch the Kensei when they feint their power attack into a light attack the animation switch is almost instantaneous. When I switch from a top power attack to a left uninterruptible the animation begins with me throwing the attack on the right side and then very quickly switches to the sword on the left side. Its the same when I do a left heavy attack in succession. The first attack comes from the left then the second attack wraps over the top of my head and comes out the right side and then immediately switches to the left side.

Its as I said before some attacks are animated in a way that intentionally deceptive and some are not. It would be easy enough to find what animations are like this and then abuse those and the moment you started getting used to that I could instantly switch it up.


In Dominion maybe, but in Duels, where you can focus, I think it would be doable.


You know how I feel about dominion so I won't get into that but all the people I have taught have asked me how I deal with feints and I always tell them that watching animations is something you have to train yourself to not do. It helps when you get stunned but the indicators do not lie so if they feint an attack from the left to the right the indicators show that. Watching an animation, for example, Warden's Zone attack (we both know how difficult it is to block) the Warden does a complete 360 and begins the swing from the right but the attack comes from the left.

Feinting the Warden left into a Zone attack can be blocked but as mentioned we both know how difficult that is to block when it comes from someone good like Willaguy.



All of that is a timing issue. You have to time when the blade falls. The timing can be deduced by blocking the attack a few times.

It's not just a timing issue because an Orochi can choose when they actually launch the attack or they can flat out cancel it and immediately do a guard break afterward. The time from the cancel to the guard break is almost instantaneous and if you aren't stupid and spamming that then they are bound to catch you off guard with it a few times. I have told you before that as the Kensei sometimes I can actually choose when I want the attack to hit by mashing certain buttons. I believe, however, that is a bug and will probably get fixed.




So, what's the problem with the option? Maybe they only want to turn everything off in Campaign and have a true 'cinematic' experience; maybe they get used to it in single-player and want to play that way in multiplayer; even if it does disadvantage them. I don't see the harm in the option.


If you want toggles that's fine I can dig that

As you can see I clearly don't have a problem with it.




It's not different enough to mistake it for a side attack. There's only one example where it could be iffy, and that difference can be learned over time and accounted for.

The animation vid was also more about character locomotion over variable terrain. The attack animations, while maybe not 100% identical every single time, are not different enough for you to mistake one for another. At least, not in my experience

You are not accounting for animation glitches.

The second Kensei attack which is the stab. I can change my guard doing the attack it causes the attack to flail wildly until it actually hits or gets blocked. I can, for example, make the stab come from the top but if I move the stick around I can make it appear to come from any side. This is not unique to the Kensei as I can do this with the Orochi as well and the Raider. It's just more prominent on the Kensei.

Sometimes animation glitches happen. It is inevitable in every single game and-and if you didn't have indicators to help with that then animation glitches would cause an issue. I believe in one my last matches on the most recent alpha with the Warden my buddy Robo said my sword was completely dangling next to me and it was hard for him (Even with indicators) to deal with it. This is, of course, a bug and if they can catch it they can fix it but it helps my point in that sometimes errors happen.


That's how I parry them, through the animation. They're so telegraphed that the indicator goes away before you need to press an input to parry it. It's the same for the Kensei---in fact, most of the time I parry Kensei's, I'm stunned, so I have no indicators anyway.

The few times I have played against you as the Kensei even with Indicators (among other factors) you lost to me. I think you won maybe 2-3 rounds total out of several matches.

Imagine in that situation if you didn't have the indicators that you did to block my attacks? I know you are a skilled player and I will never contest that because I probably will never be a better Raider player than you. However, that being said, I was able to dance all around you and get by, and through your guard on multiple occassions and all of this was done with the indicators. Like I said I will never say you are a bad player because I know you are not. However, If you didn't have your indicators the match would have been completely one sided (despite the other factors). The evidence we have from these tests shows that even with the indicators, the game is still difficult enough to separate players on a fundamental skill level. Players who turn off their indicators would only serve to widen that gap and make players like me have an easier time dealing with you.

Hell as it is now a ton of players watch the animations anyways to try and block attacks.

My point is that if you want the options then I can dig it and won't try to say no to that. However, without the indicators you are going to struggle so much harder against even average skilled players that it may not even be worth it considering that even with Indicators people struggle to win.

topeira1980
09-07-2016, 11:28 AM
It's a lot of fun reading your input :) well put, respectful to the other opinion and mature... and i learn more about the game :)

I guess the best i could hope for is a toggle option that i will most likely use in SP in a second playthrough (unless its so crap that i wouldnt bother). in MP if one player doesnt use indicators than it's obviously a huge handicap, but i thought about a none official HardCore mode where only those who wish to play without the indicators can try.
i have a feeling that after a few days of playing without the indicators both of your opinions will slightly change - what you thought was possible might prove impossible and what you thought is impossible you will discover that can be done. no one has tried playing without the indicators for long enough to really know.

handheld brando
09-07-2016, 01:04 PM
It's a lot of fun reading your input :) well put, respectful to the other opinion and mature... and i learn more about the game :)

I guess the best i could hope for is a toggle option that i will most likely use in SP in a second playthrough (unless its so crap that i wouldnt bother). in MP if one player doesnt use indicators than it's obviously a huge handicap, but i thought about a none official HardCore mode where only those who wish to play without the indicators can try.
i have a feeling that after a few days of playing without the indicators both of your opinions will slightly change - what you thought was possible might prove impossible and what you thought is impossible you will discover that can be done. no one has tried playing without the indicators for long enough to really know.

I appreciate that feedback.

Willow and I have sort of an understanding that while we may disagree on certain things we don't let it get in the way of our enjoyment of the game and the friendship we made out at E3. I am always down with more options and can respect people wanting them but I can also see how huge of an issue it can be for players who do want those options.

You may like the options but when you get into matches and if you start losing you may feel like as someone who has the hud turned off that you are disadvantaged and then some people may take that as a complaint in the forums because they feel it is unfair for them to be unable to do as well as the people with HUDS. Then people will simply tell them to turn the HUD back on and quit crying.

I am not saying that is guaranteed but it is a very likely outcome.

Once you play the game Topeira you will see your opinion change a little and you will begin to understand why I feel the way I do. I am not saying you will complete 180 your opinion but you will atleast begin to understand where I am coming from even if it doesn't change your feelings on the matter.

MisterWillow
09-08-2016, 04:08 AM
All of that is way before the characters can combo the way they can now. Orochi's didn't have their counters and Wardens couldn't combo anywhere near as well as they can now.

You sure?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H52rACMIi5Q

This vid's from last year's E3, and it still has the old interface. Aside from the Orochi counters, the characters seem largely unchanged to me, in terms of move-sets.


If you also watch that video you can see that they actually do have some of the current indicators now it's just the indicator when the attack is different.

Yes, that was my point. Instead of the narrow/wide arrows denoting light/heavy attacks (respectively), it's just a flash red on your screen telling you there's an incoming attack. You actually have to rely more on animation with the new indicators to tell if it's light or heavy by the time it takes for a weapon to actually slam into your face.


You can also see the Warden do his top counter attack but it looks different and there is zero visual indicator that that is what he did. It looks like he just blocked the attack and instantly retaliated. For a new player that would be confusing a hell and they would wonder why their character couldn't do that.

New players would still wonder why their Kensei couldn't do the top counter irregardless of an indicator's presence. It would just take time (or a look at our guide (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1487785-Hall-of-Heroes-Warden-Guide)) to learn the move is unique to the Warden.


Not only that but the indicators that they had during that video warned of the attack WAY before the attack even came close to finishing its animation making the telegraphing insane.

Current indicators warn you in the same time-frame. A feinted attack still flashes red where the attack would have come from, and you have to cancel those at the beginning of the animation.


if you watch the Kensei when they feint their power attack into a light attack the animation switch is almost instantaneous. When I switch from a top power attack to a left uninterruptible the animation begins with me throwing the attack on the right side and then very quickly switches to the sword on the left side. Its the same when I do a left heavy attack in succession. The first attack comes from the left then the second attack wraps over the top of my head and comes out the right side and then immediately switches to the left side.

Again, if you watch the shoulders and arms, the twist of an opponent's hips, you can tell where the attack is coming from. None of the feints or direction changes really matter as long as they don't stop part of the way through. If I see your arms go above your head, I'm going to block top. If I see your arms go left, I'm blocking left, etc.

I'll grant you that some moves (like Kensei's stab) and certain characters' speed would make this difficult, but things like that could be accounted for with enough time and experience.


You know how I feel about dominion so I won't get into that but all the people I have taught have asked me how I deal with feints and I always tell them that watching animations is something you have to train yourself to not do. It helps when you get stunned but the indicators do not lie so if they feint an attack from the left to the right the indicators show that.

So does the animation.


Watching an animation, for example, Warden's Zone attack (we both know how difficult it is to block) the Warden does a complete 360 and begins the swing from the right but the attack comes from the left.

So you familarise yourself with the animation and come to recognise the move as coming from the left.


It's not just a timing issue because an Orochi can choose when they actually launch the attack or they can flat out cancel it and immediately do a guard break afterward. The time from the cancel to the guard break is almost instantaneous and if you aren't stupid and spamming that then they are bound to catch you off guard with it a few times.

So you watch and see if they actually follow through with the attack. You might not parry, but be ready for the guard-break. You can tell from the start of the move which direction is coming from, just put your guard on that side.


You are not accounting for animation glitches.

This is, of course, a bug and if they can catch it they can fix it but it helps my point in that sometimes errors happen.

How? The entire discussion, at least I think, is working under the premise that everything works.

What if there's a UI glitch that causes the indicators to not show? Or a graphical glitch that removes the players' weapons, or arms?

That is in no way an indication of any players' ability to judge an animation, just that an animation is playing improperly and needs to be fixed.


The few times I have played against you as the Kensei even with Indicators (among other factors) you lost to me. I think you won maybe 2-3 rounds total out of several matches.

First of all, you and I both know there were factors other than UI elements that put me at a marked disadvantage.

Second, I didn't encounter very many Kensei prior to our fights---and all of them were awful---so I was barely familiar with their animations or move set, let alone what an experienced player could do with them. Given time, it's entirely possible to learn that.


My point is that if you want the options then I can dig it and won't try to say no to that. However, without the indicators you are going to struggle so much harder against even average skilled players that it may not even be worth it considering that even with Indicators people struggle to win.

Maybe, but there's plenty of games that allow you to turn off everything and people play that way without any problems. You can turn the entire HUD off in Battlefield, for example. There's no real benefit to doing so, but people do it (I've played matches like this in the past) to vary their experience in a way other than switching game modes.

You also can't judge others' abilities to accurately read something like the attack animations. Some people might be really good at it.