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ZenBearV13
08-22-2016, 09:09 PM
I'd like to discuss what the class roles should mean in play, from stats to team composition.

The four roles, as we all know, are Heavy, Vanguard, Assassin and Hybrid.

The Heavy seems to be all about defense, having higher HP and perhaps damage mitigation, as well as superior blocking potential with a shield for the Conqueror and Warlord, though the Shugoki bucks this trend by wielding a two handed weapon. I assume that means they will do more damage than the other two, or perhaps it just translates to greater knockback on their attacks. Heavies will likely be focused on holding captured points against any and all comers, able to survive when outnumbered for longer so their allies have more time to come to their aid or capture an undefended point.

The Vanguard as I understand it is the middle of the road class. Their attack, defense and HP is the standard by which the other classes are measured. Their place on the battlefield is to push the Front, which is generally in the middle of the map from what I've seen, and thus they are in prime position to rush to the aid of any allies in need.

Assassins are all about offense, having low HP and a less forgiving guard. They're all about ending fights quickly, which should mean that they do a lot of damage and have tools to get around an enemy's guard, but they die quickly as well and should struggle when on the defensive. They also seem to have a higher movement speed. These qualities combine to make them adept at rushing to the capture point that's closer to the enemy's side and try to steal it by scoring a quick kill on the defender and then bugging out before reinforcements arrive.

Hybrids are going to be the wild cards. Assuming a composition of Heavy, Vanguard, Assassin and Hybrid, which Hybrid you bring will make a big difference in your team's strategy.

As I understand it, the Lawbringer is a Heavy/Vanguard Hybrid, meaning they're strong on defense and good at pushing the Front. That means they will be floating between the two points as needed and keeping their side of the battlefield locked down. They should have solid defense and only modest offensive potential, but less extremely so than a true Heavy.

The Nobushi is a Vanguard/Assassin Hybrid, so they will be pushing the front with their Vanguard and skirmishing the enemy's capture point whenever they can. They will keep the pressure on and have the enemy always on their toes having to fight hard just hold their own point. They should be very quick to kill and die, but less so than a true Assassin.

The Valkyrie is a Heavy/Assassin Hybrid, which leads me to believe their role will be to follow the Assassin to capture the enemy point and then hold it. This will leave the Front a bit weaker, but the enemy will still struggle to hold it when they are surrounded by your team at both capture points. I expect them to have roughly equal attack, defense and HP to a Vanguard.

Just brainstorming how the meta might unfold.

T_Sesh
08-22-2016, 09:42 PM
I enjoyed your thoughts on this, they seem to all make a lot of sense and I never considered how the hybrids would really be used, but it makes for compelling meta when you think about it. I was also thinking about how the actual match-ups between classes would work out. For instance Heavies are generally slow and high in HP, which seems to make the assassin well suited to bringing them down, with their high damage and generally speedier attack. Assassin's in turn would be more vulnerable to vanguards, who's balanced offense and defense means they can better keep up with the assassin's movement/attack speed while also being able to take more hits than them. Heavy's then would be most suited for dealing with a vanguard, the vanguard being less likely to be able to do a substantial enough amount of damage before being taken down by the heavy. The hybrids would really be interesting to think about and deal with when thinking in these terms.

dapheenom
08-23-2016, 12:12 AM
With the game being (understandably) being balanced towards 4v4, it really makes me wonder how 1v1 will pan out. I just hope that those natural advantages aren't insurmountable in 1v1. 6-4 matchups would be cool. 8-2 matchups wouldn't be.

ZenBearV13
08-23-2016, 12:18 AM
I sincerely hope there won't be any rock-paper-scissors amongst the classes. They should be balancing the game around 1v1 and allowing that balance to carry over to the 2v2 and 4v4 modes.

Voidrek
08-23-2016, 12:25 AM
I am hoping the ability for every class to parry and guardbreak/throw will at least give you a chance of winning no matter the matchup.

SavageCombo
08-23-2016, 01:12 AM
It is wonderful a game like this will have so much strategy and tactics available to the players, and a possible meta based on situations. It will give the game a lot of depth, especially the 4v4 aspect. Compared to other games which is just a meat grinder, this game will actually test leadership, battlefield awareness, and proper classes choice for the problems on the battlefield the teams will face. I am very excited for this game!

handheld brando
08-23-2016, 11:19 AM
I sincerely hope there won't be any rock-paper-scissors amongst the classes. They should be balancing the game around 1v1 and allowing that balance to carry over to the 2v2 and 4v4 modes.

There is no Rock-Paper-Scissors so far that I can tell.

A good Kensei can beat a good Orochi or a good Warden and a good Warden can beat a good Kensei and a good Orochi and so on.

That being said there are unfavorable matchups. While I can't go into too much detail, I can say that certain characters have strengths that will help them against other characters but even still 2 equally skilled players on 2 different characters both will always have a 50-50 chance of winning the match and only each players skills and decision making will change the outcome.

Altair_Snake
08-23-2016, 11:42 AM
I'm very curious about the actual relevance of the classes. It seems like the more defensive characters will eexcell against multiple opponents (gank victims), whereas the most offensive ones will shine at 1v1 or as gankers. But how this will affect a mode like Dominion is still a mystery to me. I'm guessing the tendency will be to have a defensive character in the middle; an intermediate character at each side; and an offensive one as a ganker.

T_Sesh
08-23-2016, 03:06 PM
I sincerely hope there won't be any rock-paper-scissors amongst the classes. They should be balancing the game around 1v1 and allowing that balance to carry over to the 2v2 and 4v4 modes.

That probably shouldn't really be a concern - I don't think anyone wants RTS-like hard counters to individual classes. There should be counters when it comes to specific moves of course, but at the end of the day, as HandheldBrando says, any class can and should be able to win a fight against any other class given they have the skill. That said, I think it makes for interesting meta to think about these kinds of match ups in competitive play. If everyone in a match is more or less equally skilled, it only makes sense as the player to target enemies you might be best suited to fighting, if only for the sake of the efficiency of the team.

Misterscruff63
08-23-2016, 04:33 PM
Argh balance the one thing that spolit TD I really hope this game does not go the same way.

handheld brando
08-23-2016, 06:56 PM
That probably shouldn't really be a concern - I don't think anyone wants RTS-like hard counters to individual classes. There should be counters when it comes to specific moves of course, but at the end of the day, as HandheldBrando says, any class can and should be able to win a fight against any other class given they have the skill. That said, I think it makes for interesting meta to think about these kinds of match ups in competitive play. If everyone in a match is more or less equally skilled, it only makes sense as the player to target enemies you might be best suited to fighting, if only for the sake of the efficiency of the team.

Well to put it into perspective.

The Kensei is really good at dancing around the Warden and outmaneuvering them. The Kensei is both more agile, has longer reach and is Faster than the Warden. However, the Warden's unique special skills take away some of the Kensei's strongest tools which are his pokes. The Warden is very good at comboing while the Kensei struggles with it.

Kensei is probably not going to be for everyone because of the Vanguards he is probably the most difficult one. Warden is pretty straightforward however and isn't quite as flashy as some of the other classes. There is a good balance between playstyles and strengths and weaknesses. While the Warden negates some of the Kensei's strengths and can combo better. The Kensei can dance circles around the Warden and can out reach him. However if the Warden manages to get in close the Kensei will struggle to keep up and the Warden is able to apply heavy pressure.

To me that doesn't feel a Rock-Paper-Scissors however a skilled player will be able to take its characters strengths and use it to their advantage to gain the upper ground.

ZenBearV13
08-23-2016, 07:47 PM
I'm very curious about the actual relevance of the classes. It seems like the more defensive characters will eexcell against multiple opponents (gank victims), whereas the most offensive ones will shine at 1v1 or as gankers..

My hope is that the only general combative difference between Heavy and Assassin classes is the time they typically take to end an engagement. An Assassin kills quickly but dies quickly, either way the fight is ideally over before help can arrive, so if they win they can capture the point. A Heavy can take a lot of hits but lacks a lot of offense, so they can hold out until help arrives but are unlikely to end a battle before reinforcements arrive. This promotes their role without making any one class type "better at dueling" which would screw up the balance of the game, especially the Dueling game mode.

Lerneros
08-27-2016, 11:30 AM
I sincerely hope there won't be any rock-paper-scissors amongst the classes. They should be balancing the game around 1v1 and allowing that balance to carry over to the 2v2 and 4v4 modes.

This is the whole gambling of this game. Creating a beautiful balanced game that doesn't have clear ''have to use'' characters or matchups that straightforwardly stomp each other. I mean of course mismatches are expected to exist but hoping that no class or type will be 100% doomed against a specific nemesis.
I am so Hyped for this game X-D

NephthysIV
08-28-2016, 10:39 PM
The playable heros in the Alpha were pretty well balanced. You could win any matchup. But you need to adept your fighting sytle. Only assasins where probably a bit to strong.
In Dominion the hero classes get different bonus points for specific actions. Thats why assasines are better at roaming, heavies at defending, vanguards at killing minions ect. But you could still do everything with every character pretty well. The diffrences how well you can do specific tasks is pretty small.

You only won't never get so much points like with assasins because they have only kill other player to get many points. And they are a bit better in it than other classes because they are a bit to strong. Moreover I believe they move faster which is really a big deal in Dominion.

I reallly dislike this point system that forces you to play a specific role. For example I did everything better than a Orochi player but I get lower points because I played as Conqueror. It's fine that Orochi is a bit better at roaming and killing but I still think I should get the same points for the same tasks. Why get I lower points for killing altough it is harder to do with a Conqueror. I really hope they chance the point system so everyone get the same points for the same action. Only feats which give bonus points are fine.

MisterWillow
08-29-2016, 01:39 AM
-snip-


https://cdn.meme.am/Instance/Preview?imageID=6365265&generatorTypeID=&panels=&text0=What%20do%20you%20think%20you%27re%20doing!% 3F&text1=That%27s%20NDA&text2=&text3=

handheld brando
08-29-2016, 03:59 PM
https://cdn.meme.am/Instance/Preview?imageID=6365265&generatorTypeID=&panels=&text0=What%20do%20you%20think%20you%27re%20doing!% 3F&text1=That%27s%20NDA&text2=&text3=

Damn son that's beautiful.

NephthysIV
08-29-2016, 10:14 PM
https://cdn.meme.am/Instance/Preview?imageID=6365265&generatorTypeID=&panels=&text0=What%20do%20you%20think%20you%27re%20doing!% 3F&text1=That%27s%20NDA&text2=&text3=
Everything I've told you could also notice on the gamescom.
I still don't understand NDA for a very polished and finished game. There won't be much change until the release . Only more content.

Admit it you only needed a reason for posting this awesome pictuere :D.

MisterWillow
08-29-2016, 10:55 PM
Everything I've told you could also notice on the gamescom.

Except the Conqueror hasn't been in any of the footage to come out of Gamescom, so I don't think you're supposed to be talking about how they play. I don't think the point system you described (and bemoaned) was ever detailed by Ubi themselves. I never saw anything on that---even in the 'class roles' video they put out---so I don't think that should be discussed either.


Admit it you only needed a reason for posting this awesome pictuere :D.

I actually made it right after I saw your post. I thought it would be a perfect response. :p

handheld brando
08-30-2016, 12:08 AM
Everything I've told you could also notice on the gamescom.
I still don't understand NDA for a very polished and finished game. There won't be much change until the release . Only more content.

Admit it you only needed a reason for posting this awesome pictuere :D.

What Willow said.

Conqueror has no gameplay and has not been announced anywhere other than the factions trailer and pictures that came with it and with no official or public gameplay to boot except in the Alpha itself.

Also, I am not entirely sure that the points system has been fully described yet so some parts of that may be part of the NDA as well.

Yggdrasil_67
08-30-2016, 01:47 AM
I sincerely hope there won't be any rock-paper-scissors amongst the classes..
This.
Loose Rock-Paper-Scissors balance is almost never a good idea in a class-based competitive game. One class shouldn't have too much of an advantage over another or else people will feel it's just plain unfair, especially if they have uncooperative teammates.