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SkyChimp
03-29-2004, 06:36 PM
"The most dangerous moment of the War, and the one which caused me the greatest alarm, was when the Japanese Fleet was heading for Ceylon and the naval base there. The capture of Ceylon, the consequent control of the Indian Ocean, and the possibility at the same time of a German conquest of Egypt would have closed the ring and the future would have been black."
- Sir Winston Churchill

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/ceylon.html

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/skychimp.jpg

SkyChimp
03-29-2004, 06:36 PM
"The most dangerous moment of the War, and the one which caused me the greatest alarm, was when the Japanese Fleet was heading for Ceylon and the naval base there. The capture of Ceylon, the consequent control of the Indian Ocean, and the possibility at the same time of a German conquest of Egypt would have closed the ring and the future would have been black."
- Sir Winston Churchill

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/ceylon.html

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/skychimp.jpg

Zyzbot
03-29-2004, 07:56 PM
Didn't the Doolittle raid cause the Japanese to alter their plans for the Indian Ocean?
I seem to recall hearing that there were some joint German/Japanese military actions planned in the Indian Ocean as well.

mllaneza
03-29-2004, 08:14 PM
The IJN's rampage in the Indian Ocean was a raid. No followup was prepared, so Ceylon wasn't in serious short-term risk. Then came Dolittle, Coral Sea and Guadalcanal. The Dolittle Raid prompted enough strategic rethinking (if I may dignify the reaction as such) by the Japanese that even a planned takeover of the Indian Ocean would possibly have been cancelled.

Fortunately for gamers, the RAF and the IJN and IA air forces faced-off plenty of times.

My best reference (sorry, no page numbers) is Bergerud's "Fire in the Sky" where he gives a strategic summary of events leading up to the South Pacific campaign. I've got better, but I haven't look at the question in this light so Bergerud is all that comes to mind.

Veteran - Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force. 1993-1951.

DONB3397
03-29-2004, 08:20 PM
I believe the RAF was struggling in India and Burma. From articles I've found in aviation magazines, the air combat seems to have been brutal, fighting above unforgiving terrain and facing a hidden force on the ground. This whole theater -- India/Burma/Western China -- would offer some challenging maps. There were few bases, and hundreds of square miles of jungle. We already have most of the fighters for these battles; but we need medium bombers to recreate some of the battles.

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BC6hOaABCyZcLZQo
There is no 'way' of winning;
There is only Winning!

JR_Greenhorn
03-29-2004, 11:01 PM
The more I read of these "forgotten battles," like CBI, the Aleutians, even Afrika, the more interested I become. I think it brings a whole new perspective to air combat when such exotic terrain lies below. Apart from the ocean, I would think the desert and jungle would offer new challenges in navigation, and the cloaking affect of jungle on ground units sounds even more challenging. You'd be screwed if you went down in the jungle, but in the FB we have now, its not too hard to find an airfield on the right side of the front when you are damaged. Even landing on a road should be tough in the jungle. Personally, I can't wait for CBI from the Maddox Crew.

03-29-2004, 11:27 PM
Operation C, or the Indian Ocean Raid, was meant to destroy the Royal Navy Eastern fleet at Ceylon.
Thus securing the SW Border area of Japans conquests in the Pacific.

We of course have the Wisdom of Hindsight, and know that it was a waste of Japans Navy resources, despite the limited success of the Raid.
The Royal Navy eastern fleet was no threat to Japan, they where mostly old antiquated slow ships, that would not have lasted very long against the faster more modern Battle groups of the Japanese.
Thats why the Admiralty ordered the fleet away from Ceylon back to India about a week before Operation C began in the Indian Ocean.
They knew Ceylon was not tenable if it came under threat, from the Japanese.

At that particular time Early April 1942, it would be fair to say because of the Quality and experience of its Naval aviators, numbers of Aircraft Carriers and Battle Ships , cruisers destroyers, support carriers, that the Imperial Japanese Navy, was probably the most powerfull moving task force on the Oceans.

This was the time they should have been hunting after the American fleet carriers,in the Pacific, not wasting resources in the Indian Ocean.

S!

RicknZ
03-30-2004, 12:59 AM
Funny eh? The proponents of the famous Chuck Yeager line, "Its the pilot not the plane". Tend to over look how the Japs were kicking the Brits arse firmly strapped to there hurricanes flaming cockpits...

Till the Spitfire came along and the japs had there arse handed back to them in turn.

03-30-2004, 01:41 AM
Actualy!
The best the Spitfire could do was break even with the Zero, over Rangoon.
Over Darwin the RAAF lost 17 of its 22 Spitfires in only 2 Japanese air raids, the Japanese lost a single bomber.
The Pacific was a very different theatre for the Spitfire, a new enemy different tactics required.
Also because the Zero was an extreme long range tactical fighter meant there where no unprotected bombers like over England, as the Hurricane pilots soon found out, I think probably the main limiting factor on the Spit in the Pacific was its range, too short.

Most of the damage done to the ranks of the Japanese air forces was by long range American fighters, that showed up around 1943 onwards, like the Hell cat and corsair etc.

[This message was edited by JG77_GK on Tue March 30 2004 at 12:54 AM.]

M0NS
03-30-2004, 03:26 AM
I've made some DF "BoB" (Battle of Burma) maps if anyone's interested - covering 1941-1944.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

M0NS

"So when Diogenes perceived that he was greatly excited and quite keyed up in mind with expectancy, he toyed with him and pulled him about in the hope that somehow he might be moved from his pride and thirst for glory and be able to sober up a little. For he noticed that at one time he was delighted, and at another grieved at the same thing, and that his soul was as unsettled as the weather at the solstices when both rain and sunshine come from the very same source."

(Dio Chrysostom "Discourse" 4.77-78)

norbertcolon
03-30-2004, 03:40 AM
Recomended reading for this theatre.

Bloody Shambles Vols 1 & 2 by Christopher Shores. Excellent accunt of the beginning of the far eastern war, the title says it all.

Buffaloes over Singapore by Brian Cull.

Art-J
03-30-2004, 05:09 AM
Hey, Norbert, how many volumes of "Bloody Shambles" were published, two? Here in Poland we have the first one translated and I enjoyed it very much. I'd like to know how many more I can expect...

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Haribo-Zeke_small_3_txt.jpg

Destraex
03-30-2004, 05:17 AM
Their were many Technical problems that came with the change in climate and by the time the boys back in england at the factorys got word and fixed them the raids were over.

pacettid
03-30-2004, 05:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M0NS:
I've made some DF "BoB" (Battle of Burma) maps if anyone's interested - covering 1941-1944.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

M0NS
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MONS, I would love to have these maps. Where might I find them?

All the best, Don

norbertcolon
03-30-2004, 05:31 AM
Art J

Bloody Shambles Vol covers "The drift to wat to the fall of Singapore"

Vol 2 covers "The defence of Sumatra to the fall of Burma"

Just the two volumes.

norbertcolon
03-30-2004, 05:31 AM
Oh dera my spell ing, its the drift to war not the drift to wat. and that should read vol 1.

konstantinl1
03-30-2004, 06:08 AM
My grandfather was RAF and he fought against both the Germans and the Japanese. Whenever I mention this to Americans they say something along the lines of "The British fought the Japanese? Get out of here!"

mike_espo
03-30-2004, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_GK:
Actualy!
The best the Spitfire could do was break even with the Zero, over Rangoon.
Over Darwin the RAAF lost 17 of its 22 Spitfires in only 2 Japanese air raids, the Japanese lost a single bomber.
The Pacific was a very different theatre for the Spitfire, a new enemy different tactics required.
Also because the Zero was an extreme long range tactical fighter meant there where no unprotected bombers like over England, as the Hurricane pilots soon found out, I think probably the main limiting factor on the Spit in the Pacific was its range, too short.

Most of the damage done to the ranks of the Japanese air forces was by long range American fighters, that showed up around 1943 onwards, like the Hell cat and corsair etc.

[This message was edited by JG77_GK on Tue March 30 2004 at 12:54 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.

I don't think the spits fought zeros. In the CBI theatre, the JAAF was responsible for air support,superiority. Accounts I read were Spits vs Hayabusas Ki-43s. Ki-43s were more maneuverable than the zero, so I should think a spit would be at a disadvantage in a turn fight.

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
03-30-2004, 08:09 AM
sry, Darwin is in australia http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - nothing to do thith CBI http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AND , yes, the RAAF fought with Spitfire MkV against incomming IJNF forces that were bombing Darwins harbour in spring/summer 1943 !

the Spitfire WingCommander was no lesse than Clive "Killer" Caldwell. the well know ace who scored before heavily over Northafrica

mike_espo
03-30-2004, 08:41 AM
Yes, I know that. If you look at the quote however, he refers to Ragoon which IS in the CBI. A6m Zeros were never deployed to Burma.

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

huggy87
03-30-2004, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by konstantinl1:
My grandfather was RAF and he fought against both the Germans and the Japanese. Whenever I mention this to Americans they say something along the lines of "The British fought the Japanese? Get out of here!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get outta here! Every american knows the Brits fought the Japs in the Battle of Britain after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

Gunslinger5577
03-30-2004, 01:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RicknZ:
Funny eh? The proponents of the famous Chuck Yeager line, "Its the pilot not the plane". Tend to over look how the Japs were kicking the Brits arse firmly strapped to there hurricanes flaming cockpits...

Till the Spitfire came along and the japs had there arse handed back to them in turn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it was the pilot even in this case. the Japanese had been at war since 1936 when they invaded Manchuria. Their pilots had 3-4 years of combat expreience by the time they Met any western powers. Had the British been fighting an air war for just as long, I'm sure they would have faired better.

GS5577

Xnomad
03-30-2004, 01:13 PM
My Dad was born in Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and him and my grandmother fled Ceylon for India and then moved around a lot in India due to the Japanese threat they finally got a steamer out back to Britain I suppose they were lucky they weren't torpedoed on the way home. One of my great uncles was also captured when Singapore was taken by the Japanese and died in the POW camp at Changi.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

heywooood
03-30-2004, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by norbertcolon:
Recomended reading for this theatre.

Bloody Shambles Vols 1 & 2 by Christopher Shores. Excellent accunt of the beginning of the far eastern war, the title says it all.

Buffaloes over Singapore by Brian Cull.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
.

And speaking of spellcheck... I thought you were talking about an old girlfriend of mine..

M0NS
03-31-2004, 02:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pacettid:

MONS, I would love to have these maps. Where might I find them?

All the best, Don<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll be hosting them soon on Hyperlobby - see you there then... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

M0NS

"So when Diogenes perceived that he was greatly excited and quite keyed up in mind with expectancy, he toyed with him and pulled him about in the hope that somehow he might be moved from his pride and thirst for glory and be able to sober up a little. For he noticed that at one time he was delighted, and at another grieved at the same thing, and that his soul was as unsettled as the weather at the solstices when both rain and sunshine come from the very same source."

(Dio Chrysostom "Discourse" 4.77-78)

clover4
03-31-2004, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_GK:
Operation C, or the Indian Ocean Raid, was meant to destroy the Royal Navy Eastern fleet at Ceylon.
Thus securing the SW Border area of Japans conquests in the Pacific.

We of course have the Wisdom of Hindsight, and know that it was a waste of Japans Navy resources, despite the limited success of the Raid.
The Royal Navy eastern fleet was no threat to Japan, they where mostly old antiquated slow ships, that would not have lasted very long against the faster more modern Battle groups of the Japanese.
Thats why the Admiralty ordered the fleet away from Ceylon back to India about a week before Operation C began in the Indian Ocean.
They knew Ceylon was not tenable if it came under threat, from the Japanese.

At that particular time Early April 1942, it would be fair to say because of the Quality and experience of its Naval aviators, numbers of Aircraft Carriers and Battle Ships , cruisers destroyers, support carriers, that the Imperial Japanese Navy, was probably the most powerfull moving task force on the Oceans.

This was the time they should have been hunting after the American fleet carriers,in the Pacific, not wasting resources in the Indian Ocean.

S!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose you could say time heals.I refer to the Japanese Troups now fighting with our troups in Iraq.Oh when I say "Our" Troups I mean the Brave soldiers fighting with the Coalition against Terrorism.
I sure hope the Japanese Troups flew to Iraq ,I am not sure our rusty old Royal Navy fleet would be up fot that trip. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif