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wotan111
04-02-2004, 04:55 PM
Ok I have my convergence set at 200m and even at this range or either a little under or slightly over I just cant seem to take out a target.

Even with several hits nothing. SOmetimes I give them a fuel leek and a wingman comes in and finish's him off before I can get in and claim him!

I hit two BF's and one FW in my last mission all good shots soemtimes three or four flame flash's on them but nothing!

Am I doing something wrong or are the P 51 guns rather weak? Is it right that I can only use one fire button with this plane?

Thanks

wotan111
04-02-2004, 04:55 PM
Ok I have my convergence set at 200m and even at this range or either a little under or slightly over I just cant seem to take out a target.

Even with several hits nothing. SOmetimes I give them a fuel leek and a wingman comes in and finish's him off before I can get in and claim him!

I hit two BF's and one FW in my last mission all good shots soemtimes three or four flame flash's on them but nothing!

Am I doing something wrong or are the P 51 guns rather weak? Is it right that I can only use one fire button with this plane?

Thanks

El Turo
04-02-2004, 05:13 PM
If you are *really* at 200m and you are aiming correctly, you should see a SHOWER of sparks and crap flying off your bandit when you let loose.

Odds are that you aren't exactly 100% lined up perfectly at 200m.. that's not easy to do.

My suggestion is to bring that convergence in even closer, like 100m and then it's about impossible to miss because he's so close.

Practice getting in close to kill. You'll use less ammo per kill that way as well.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse träume.

Chuck_Older
04-02-2004, 05:15 PM
Well, you must hit with all guns to do maximum damage, of course http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That said, if you are getting strikes and just not doing a lot of damage, two things can be happening (also bear in mind that the different models have different numbers of guns):

1. You are shooting at the wrong time. Either your chosen convergence is too great or two little, regardless of what your convergence is. Basically what I mean is that you may not be firing at your convergence range at all, and aiming quite well for little effect.

2. You are doing what I tend to do sometimes: beat holy heck out of a part of the aircraft that will not destroy it quickly. I have taken out Me-323s with a P-51D by shooting off a wingtip, and other times I have had close to 100% hits with all guns on a wing root on an Me-323 and not shot it down. Destroy the engine/pilot, shoot off a wing at the root, or shoot the elevators off. Good solid fuselage hits seem the most logical and easiest to make, but often I find them to do little catastrophic damage.

*****************************
Punk Rockers in the UK, they won't notice anyway. They're all too busy fighting for a good place under the lighting~ Clash

BS87
04-02-2004, 07:28 PM
In AEP, it seems harder to get more critical failures(wings falling off) With .50cal, but you can wound a plane and take it out of the battle alot easier. 4-5 flashes with .50cal is nothing, unless yolu get lucky. Thats just one round hitting, and you have to remeber, the .50cal is a not a cannon. Each bullet does alot less dmg than the normal cannons on most planes in FB. The Theory with .50cals it "lead in air" where you are able to throw massive amounts of lead at the enemy, this is how the .50cal does its dammage.

maxim26
04-02-2004, 08:24 PM
I fly with my brother online alot. We have aproximately the same level of skill. And I found that when he flyes Mustang and I fly FfK4 he get kills much easier.

Mustang has small caliber guns, but they are nasty. Every time he makes a pass, he sprayed the shower of bullets and damages controlls or engine.

Though one hit with Bf's cannon is enough to down a plain but it is very difficult to aim.

It is completly different online. To AI aircrufts seems to be able to take much more damage when you fly the same aircruft yourself.

BuzzU
04-02-2004, 08:57 PM
I wait for hits on the canopy or engine. It will take them down pretty easy in those areas.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/anderson9.jpg

Jazz-Man
04-03-2004, 04:44 AM
50cals do plenty of damage.

http://home.sou.edu/~katzw/il2fb/quick0013.zip


And this was with a P-38 which only has 4x50.cal in the nose. Note, my cannon was not fired one single time during that engagement. The P-51 does it even faster. Maybe you should try using the P-51D-20 with the Gyroscopic gunsight to get used to compensating for drop. Just set the gunsight to Gyro/Fixed and notice how the gyro moves reletive to the fixed sight and use that to guage your shots later on.

The P-47 is even nastier, I was just flying my P-47 campaign and folded the wings off of a couple of Bf-109G-6s. Its a matter of hitting them right, and not opening fire from very far away. With MGs, since they're not explosive, you can't just land hits on an enemy from a long distance away and hope for damage.


S!
William "Jazz-Man" Katz
Squadron Batman
RAF No.74 Squadron
www.raf74.com (http://www.raf74.com)
http://home.sou.edu/~katzw/images/signature.jpg

Jazz-Man
04-03-2004, 04:45 AM
two posts....

konstantinl1
04-03-2004, 07:31 AM
The 0.50 calibre guns are probably the easiest default weapons to score kills with. I have mine set at 150m convergance. I've been flying the early series Mustang recently (which only has four guns) and have no problems taking out Bf109's and Junkers 88's. Just remember when firing from behind, get in close and aim for the wing roots, cockpit and engine(s). I also find the 0.50's very effective in head-on's passes. Try getting a kill that way.

I assume you are new to the game. Just keep practising in QMB and you'll get the hang of it. Gunnery is probably the most diffcult part of being a fighter pilot, so practise, practise, practise.

wotan111
04-03-2004, 09:04 AM
Yes Im quite new to the game. Well Ihave not long changed to higher difficulty levels.

One problem I find is keep the plane in the sight without over steering. As soo as I get hits and the palne jinks I then have difficulty keeping it within the sight without shifting the joystick to far one way or the other.

So really its a problem with keeping the plane on target long enough.

Also how do you set the gyro sight? And how does it work?

Chuck_Older
04-03-2004, 09:45 AM
once you turn the sight to "gyro+fixed" or "gyro only":

First, note a couple of things:

1) that you now have a 'pipper' of yellow diamonds on the gunsight recticle. This is your gyro sight feature
2) that around the edge of the gunsight housing there is a list of aircraft
3) you must define keys to adjust the gunsight pipper and aircraft selected.


The selection of aircraft is not absolute. It is a list of common targets. For example, if you are firing at a Me 323, there is no "Me 323" listed. In this case, all you have to bear in mind is that all these presets do is resize the pipper to correspond to the wingspread of the aircraft selected, at the range you have selected on the gunsight. Note that changing gunsight range does not change convergence.

So, in the case of the Me 323, you would select "FW200". Why?

Because the pipper doesn't care what the aircraft is. All it does is show you 'correct' range, by the size of the pipper. You also do not (and almost never will really know exactly without icons 'on') need to "dial in" a range. All you need worry about is size, and matching visual wingspans through the sight to pipper size. That's it.

The cardinal rule of the K-14 gyro gunsight is this: When the enemy aircraft is approximately of the same wingspan as the one selected on the sight, and the target's wings go from one edge of the pipper to the other, the target is at the range the gunsight is set to.

Resetting the range on the sight simply expands or contracts the pipper.

Bear in mind that all you can do is resize the pipper, regardless of selecting aircraft, or range.

Example:

You are fighting a Bf109. Your convergence has been set to 200m.

Turn the sight on to 'fixed+gyro'. Select 'Bf109' on the sight. The pipper should be initially set at a 'default' of approximately 150m, if I recall correctly. Your convergence is a bit further, what do you do? Bump up the range on the pipper a little bit. Get into firing position. Allow the sight a second or two to stabilize. Place the dot of the pipper on the enemy when it's wings are framed by the pipper diamonds. When the wings touch each side, you are at the range the sight is set to, in our example this is approximately 175-200m (since we manually adjusted the range out a little bit)

If the sight is stabilized, the target is framed properly, and the convergence corresponds to the range well enough, when you press the trigger when the pipper dot is on the enemy, you will get hits.

The 'fixed+gyro' feature is great becasue sometimes you don't have two seconds to wait for the sight to settle down. But you can still use the fixed sight as a reference.

It is also worth remembering that the goal is not to continually change range settings on the sight. That is extremely difficult and not worth the effort. Set it to convergence range and leave it, as in the example above. Now let;s say you shoot down that Bf109 and there's a FW190 nearby. All you do is select "FW190" on the gunsight, and the pipper is now sized for the FW190's wingspan, at the range you have already selected before- that won't change just because you selected a new aircraft type.

If keeping the enemy in your sights long enough is a problem, I suggest practising more precise rudder control.

*****************************
Punk Rockers in the UK, they won't notice anyway. They're all too busy fighting for a good place under the lighting~ Clash

SithSpeeder
04-03-2004, 09:48 AM
I'm no expert at this game or the P-51, but it is my ride of choice when I do fly. The following regimen has helped me a lot (which many others have suggested):

1. Turn on arcade mode when practicing offline. This will allow you to see which shots are hitting and where.
2. Practice your deflection shooting with arcade mode on offline. Practice practice practice. Understanding how to use your gunsight (typically fixed) is extremely important in landing hits and landing hits where you specify them to (not just anywhere on the plane)
3. Focus on areas. Cockpit, engine, one (and only one) wing. Don't fire otherwise...save your ammo and practice lining up for your shot better and quicker.
4. When done offline (whether you get shot down or you've cleared the skies), save the track and watch it immediately (enable all the controls--two of them default to disabled). You probably already know these subpoints, but during the review you can:
a. jump into and out of your cockpit to see how you are lining up, when you are firing, if they are hitting, etc.
b. you can switch planes and see what the enemy is seeing
c. you can pause the game, speed it up to 8x, slow it down to 1/4 time. I have mapped these on to my X-45 to aid in learning
d. zoom in and out, either using Delete-End-PgDn and/or the mouse (click drag). Now you can see (with arcade mode on) exactly what you are hitting and how it affects play.

Once you understand critical areas, what it takes to nail them, etc., flying online or eventually just without arcade on, you'll better know when to shoot, what you are hitting, etc. Gunnery is huge in this game. But so is good flying. You eventually (sooner than later) will need both.

I respectfully disagree about setting the convergence to 100m (0.1 km)--you frequently can't get that close and still hang with the target. It also makes head-ons nearly impossible because beyond about 250m your bullets would never hit anything. 200m or 300m is good for .50s . 109s should prove less of a problem, but 190s are very tough--usually attacking from dead astern is useless. Get above them and shoot down into the cockpit or engine.

YMMV. Hope this helps.

* _54th_Speeder *

http://members.cox.net/~ijhutch/_images/400x200sig.jpg

SithSpeeder
04-03-2004, 09:52 AM
Great stuff, Chuck. They "say" that gunnery improved by 50% or so with the introduction of the K14. Although I haven't figured out how to use it yet (your post is great). But having a good understanding of how the fixed sight works, like you said, is needed, especially for those quick setup shots (or when flying a plane without the gyro sight).

* _54th_Speeder *

http://members.cox.net/~ijhutch/_images/400x200sig.jpg

wotan111
04-03-2004, 06:38 PM
Thanks for the tips.

For practice I slowed the game down by one and I took out two planes a BF 110 and a BF109. It seems that Im having difficulty in keeping the plane in my sights long enough with out shoving my stick (sounds quite rude) to hard (christ even ruder)!

I then kept it at normal and got myself an FW hooray. As you all say practice is needed. Could it be I have my joystick set to sensitve or am I being heavy handed? Hhhmm....what ever I seem to say I put my foot in it.

How do you turn on the gyro gunsght? Is there a key input required?

konstantinl1
04-04-2004, 05:00 AM
One mistake I made when I was first playing was I'd just gun the throttle up 100% in a dogfight and then forget about it. Of course it was difficult to keep the enemy aircraft in the sight when I did this as you'd overshoot or get outturned. It took me a long time to figure that out!

If you alter your throttle accordingly you can keep the bogey a hundred yards in front of you and get a lot more lead on target. A good joystick makes all the difference too. I've found keeping one hand on the throttle and one on the stick at all times helps a lot.

Just a couple of other things that popped into my head! Hope they are of used to you.

Chuck_Older
04-04-2004, 07:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wotan111:

How do you turn on the gyro gunsght? Is there a key input required?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, there is. Check your control commands list, I beleive that the command is the same as to 'turn on bombsight'. Near those commands are the commands for the bombsight that are also used for adjusting the gyro gunsight. Left/right selects target aircraft, up/down selects range

*****************************
Punk Rockers in the UK, they won't notice anyway. They're all too busy fighting for a good place under the lighting~ Clash

wotan111
04-04-2004, 04:27 PM
Thanks for the tips.

I have a saitek ST290. I had limited funds at the time. Wish I had bought one with a twist grip for the rudder.

I cant buy another just yet as the missus wouldnt be to happy as Ive just got this one. She already has a moan at the upgrade cost. Ive only just talked her into me upgradeing next year so I can play BOB!

Chuck_Older
04-04-2004, 06:08 PM
I have a Saitek Cyborg 3D gold sitting here gathering dust. I don't use it, but it has a twist grip, and throttle slider...I think I have the software too, somewhere.

You want it, Wotan? Whereabouts are you? I'll just ship it.

*****************************
Punk Rockers in the UK, they won't notice anyway. They're all too busy fighting for a good place under the lighting~ Clash

wotan111
04-04-2004, 07:24 PM
Thats very good of you chuck. Infact its the nicest thing anyone has done for me!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I live in the UK Liverpool. SO Im afraid its a little to far.

But thankyou very much for the offer.

Greatly appriciated.

Chuck_Older
04-04-2004, 07:27 PM
How about we split the difference in shipping? It might not be too much, you know, it will be under 10 pounds, I should think.

PT me. I'll look into this cost tomorrow.


~edit-

I mean of course under 10 pounds in weight, not Pounds Sterling http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

*****************************
Punk Rockers in the UK, they won't notice anyway. They're all too busy fighting for a good place under the lighting~ Clash

VF-10_Snacky
04-04-2004, 07:36 PM
For the original poster who wanted to know about convergence for the P51 here is the official chart for the P51D using 6x.50cal.
If you convert to metric the optimum convergence range is around 275m or 250-300yds.
I personally set mine to 300m to 350m depending because I tend to fire a short burst from further out or when chasing a 109/190 in the vertical.
This appears to work best for me, but as with any aircraft all pilots are different.
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-51/P-51BSD.gif

"Son of a B**ch! That's gonna leave a mark."

Bucketrider
04-05-2004, 09:06 AM
I too have a lot to be desired when it comes to air-to-air gunnery skills. There should be a sticky for this sort of topic, eg. ground school, air combat, etc.
I've found that rarely can I get in close range (200m-100m) against the vet or ace AI, or on-line, for that matter. I've set my conv. at 300m. (about 330yds.) and it seems to give me the range that reaches out touches 'em. Rarely do I get the kill and I have yet to perfect my lead/deflection skills. I'll just get lucky sometimes...but most times I'm just hammering away at nothing.
This article has been ref. so many times on these boards 'cos it's the most helpful in understanding ("oh, I get it!") air2air gunnery -
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031a.html

VF-10_Snacky
04-05-2004, 12:42 PM
Well for me one of the big problems with the .50cal tracers and aiming is not being able to see the tracers after about 100yds. I dont mind not having smoke on the tracers, but if 1C could brighten up the tracers so we could see what we are hitting then that would be great. The only way I know I am hitting anything with the .50 is the shower of sparks you see on the plane as you hit it.

"Son of a B**ch! That's gonna leave a mark."

tttiger
04-05-2004, 01:04 PM
A few thoughts:

1. Lately, I've been pushing my convergence out with the .50 cals. To my surprise, I do much better at 300m than at the 150 or 200 I used to use. Maybe the manual is right (RTFM http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). In addition to the P-51 manual post above, the standard convergence on Navy Hellcats (My all-time favorite ride; can't wait for the Pacific!)was 300 yards or (about) 270 meters. Anyway, 300m works for me.

2. Seawolf, NEVER use your tracers to aim with. Every book by WWII pilots said they are worthless because the trajectory is very different from the AP or API. If the model in FB is good, the same should be true. As you say, the "shower of sparks" (also called "sprites") tells if you're hitting or not.

3. And head-on attacks against other fighters??? Carumba! My on line wingman broke me of that habit the first year I flew sims (would whack me over the head with a rolled-up newspaper http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) The only place it was done in RL was in the Pacific against flimsy Japanese planes (Chennault even advocated it as a standard tactic for the AVG). But certainly not in Europe.

My .02.

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

CRSutton
04-05-2004, 04:06 PM
Make sure you have a decent joystick. I just replaced mine and it was the problem not my gunnery. I am flying much better now.

GK.
04-05-2004, 04:16 PM
conserve ammo cause there isnt enough of it.
use 220 convergence and watch where your tracers go and use them to aim. trust me i am an ace.