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View Full Version : OLEG! Hows about a P-82B to counter that Bf-109Z?



DaBallz
04-13-2004, 04:03 PM
Come now mr Oleg, an F-82B was flying well
before the end of the great patriotic war.
That it never saw action does not stop
other planes from flying in IL2 FB....

The F-82B/P-82B was a great performer in it's
own right. Good time to climb, excellent top
speed and phenominal range.

The F-82E was an excellent weapon in the sky's over Korea.

Well I'm whining, lets have a P-51H to counter
those uber La's.

The P-51H should out run everything but the jets
at all altitudes and had very good climb.

By the way, since you have included experimental planes
perhaps a P-51G?
The P-51G was the "American Spitfire" in climb and turn
plus could out climb a F8F-2 Bearcat. (and out run it easily).

One last note, the Brits would love to se a "Spiteful" I'm sure.


Daballs

DaBallz
04-13-2004, 04:03 PM
Come now mr Oleg, an F-82B was flying well
before the end of the great patriotic war.
That it never saw action does not stop
other planes from flying in IL2 FB....

The F-82B/P-82B was a great performer in it's
own right. Good time to climb, excellent top
speed and phenominal range.

The F-82E was an excellent weapon in the sky's over Korea.

Well I'm whining, lets have a P-51H to counter
those uber La's.

The P-51H should out run everything but the jets
at all altitudes and had very good climb.

By the way, since you have included experimental planes
perhaps a P-51G?
The P-51G was the "American Spitfire" in climb and turn
plus could out climb a F8F-2 Bearcat. (and out run it easily).

One last note, the Brits would love to se a "Spiteful" I'm sure.


Daballs

crazyivan1970
04-13-2004, 04:25 PM
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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

JG5_JaRa
04-13-2004, 04:33 PM
Where's the challenge in "fighting" in aircraft which easily out-run, out-climb, out-turn and out-f*ck all the rest? And who wanted a 109Z anyway, I can think of many things in the current planeset which could have been fixed or improved instead.

SeaFireLIV
04-13-2004, 05:53 PM
I agree with JG5_Jara. Making more `what if` aircraft to counter other `what-if` aircraft is going down down the wrong road. I still believe the 109Z was a mistake, no matter how well intentioned the original modeller`s meant to be. Just because the plane looks nice as modelled doesn`t mean it was right to go into a WWII sim.



SeaFireLIV...

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Gato-Loco
04-13-2004, 06:09 PM
I agree with you guys too. Delivery of the F-82B began in early 1946. Too late for WWII. I can think of several "real" WWII planes that were important in the eastern front and are not on the game yet. I know that many of the "what if" planes are the result of individual modelers choice, but if Oleg is going to target some modeling effort toward new planes for FB, it should be on "real" (and not on "what if") planes.

DaBallz
04-13-2004, 06:51 PM
But unlike the Bf-109Z it did fly.
The prototypes flew BEFORE VJ day.
I would think it's at least as valid
as an FB plane as the Bf-109Z.

And the P-51H flew before VE day.
Some had reached front line units
before VJ day, but none engaged the enemy.

The front line units were in the Phillipines
and Alaska.

Da...

Future-
04-13-2004, 07:23 PM
DaBallz really got a point there. Especially in terms of game balance, the F-82 would form a perfect match for the 109Z.

And he's damn right about one thing, unlike the 190Z the F-82 was real, and active in 1945.
So the F-82 isn't a "what-if" plane, it's more like a prototype, similar to the YP-80s.

If the 109Z deserves a spot in FB, the F-82 does even more!

- Future

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380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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VW-IceFire
04-13-2004, 07:28 PM
This is all true but it further reinforces the point that 109Z should be part of a late 1945 or 1946 lineup...instead its around far too much.

I keep pressing this home but hopefully someone somewhere who runs a dogfight server will listen http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Bull_dog_
04-13-2004, 07:44 PM
You know when you get down to brass tacks...it is really the online dogfight servers that this is all about... I don't fly or fight against the 109Z off line...if I host, you will not find a 109Z on the list of choices...it doesn't matter to me if it is in the game or not...

At least until I'm online in someone else's server and I get hunted down and blown into a million tiny little pcs by one half second burst of the mk108's. The ban on UFO's really should extend to the 109Z or we should have a full set of 1946 aircraft to deal with it or maybe we can just convince a few of the more popular servers not to punish us by allowing them...but ultimately it is up to the host.

So if Oleg would have enough 1946 aircraft to have a proper server great! This is not Oleg's or the designer's fault...any plane that is put in this game is ok with me...even a piper cub or concorde but I do like to be able to fly a P-40E or a P-38J and have an opportunity to outfox my opponent!

plumps_
04-13-2004, 08:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Future-:
DaBallz really got a point there. Especially in terms of game balance, the F-82 would form a perfect match for the 109Z.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you want game balance simply don't put the Bf109 Z into your missions.

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LEXX_Luthor
04-13-2004, 09:28 PM
Cockpit and probably most of external model was easily cut~n~pasted from existing Fb109s models. A minor Pink Elephant for the internet dogfight set.

Or somebody can sim the bombing raid that Destroyed the Fb109Z and if the "ally" player gets MISSION FAIL then Fb109Z is real.

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christopher65
04-14-2004, 05:43 AM
rather had a b24 or do17 than the 109z!!!!!!!

Bearcat99
04-14-2004, 06:44 AM
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap34.jpg

F-82.... Id rather see a flyable B-17.. a B-25... a Do-17, but it would be nice.. I dont care what he puts in... Id like it anyway.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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BlitzPig_DDT
04-14-2004, 06:47 AM
The 109Z is a fun plane with very realistic performance, you bunch of ingrates. There are planes I'd rather have had in it's stead, like an F8F, or Do335, but feck it, it's nice to finally see some more exotic types featured in a good sim, not just the same old boring crap re-hased a billion times like you all are clamoring for.

The real problem with the 109Z is that it's LW and a good performer. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif God forbid we ever have that! Give you half a chance to kvetch about anything fitting that description and you will. Repeatedly. As we see. The initial post in this thread is positively dripping with that fact.

Just lame. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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crazyivan1970
04-14-2004, 08:03 AM
There are many planes in the game that can beat 109Z. Even well flown P-38 can do that. Z is just another plane, no more, no less.

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

BlitzPig_DDT
04-14-2004, 08:28 AM
So true Ivan. I've even told people, both as a whole, and specific individuals, how to beat it. They don't listen, and instead continue to spout the same crap like a program caught in an infinite loop.

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Mephisto__
04-14-2004, 09:04 AM
If i see another thread about ki or bf109z ill start to puke.

KaRaYa-X
04-14-2004, 11:56 AM
Oh my God this is so childish! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Every time one side gets a new plane the other side immediately starts to cry and shouts for an own plane to counter it. As a consequence the other side gets another new plane and so on...

I'm afraid if these kids go on with that we might have F15s, Eurofighters and Su27s fighting each other at the end of this year in ACES and PF http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Oh and by the way: The Bf109Z is far from being a killer. It's climb and speed is excellent but these are about all of it's good points.
- Monstrous armament but an extremly limited clip.
- High speed but very bad high-speed handling... etc.

-- flying online as JG_52Karaya-X --

Future-
04-14-2004, 12:27 PM
Again, these suggestions are fighter-based.

What about us poor bomber pilots? With those shotgun 108s on it, all a good 109Z pilot needs is 2 seconds to destroy a bomber.
This goes for B-17s as well as IL-2s. Anything that can neither outfly nor outturn that 109Z is toast.

Sure, now some could say " you need fighters to cover you " - stick that recommendation up your ***. Cause what can I do if my cover fighters are already engaged by enemies?

Let's face it - all it needs nowadays to down a full wing of 3 - 4 bombers is a 109Z and a mediocre pilot at the stick.
If teams are even, that means the enemy has 2 - 3 pilots available that don't have to go for the bombers,but can engage the escorts too.

Battle example, 8 vs 8:

Red Team:

- 3 bombers
- 5 escorts

Blue Team:

- 1 109Z
- 7 fighters


This means red escorts will have their hands full while the 109Z can make it's attack. BOOM.

Any clever tactical hints on this?

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://www.310thvfs.com , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

BlitzPig_DDT
04-14-2004, 01:17 PM
Clever tactical hints? Why is it's presence causing so much heartburn?

Host your own server and ban it. Fly full switch (or nearly so) and most of the people likely to fly that plane will stay away to begin with, but then you can supplement that with tactics - route planning, evasion, stealth, the whole 9. Tedious and boring, but then so are bombers. lol Really though, fly COOPs. Set the plane set how you want it to be as well as changing the entire situation of the flight. Best of all, get a human to fly as your gunner. In either DF or COOP though, get your whole team coordinated. People that just show up and fly don't fly coordinated. With proper teamwork and comms, a *lot* can be neutralized. Hell, even add a death kick/several minute ban. That would prevent them from crashing and burning and coming right back after you having known your last location and destination, as well as making people less gung ho and suicidal.

There's a lot you can do really. What's the big deal?

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Future-
04-14-2004, 03:36 PM
Well, the deal is that I'd rather like to see the F-82 added to counter the 109Z than banning all the planes I don't like.

Cause while I don't like the 109Z, others do, and why shouldn't they be able to fly it online.

That's another thing, you know. All those wussie servers that banned the jets, but still have the 190 A9 or the 109Z. Before AEP was released, the policy of banning the Bi-1 and 262s seemed valid, especially on allies vs axis planesets. But now, with the new jets in the game, if somebody harrasses you with a 262, you can grab a P-80 and blow 'em away... in theory.

But all those "prop-only" ignorants feared that they could get their little d***s ripped off by the jets, so they cried loud enough for some other guys to actually do their bidding and ban the jets.

If guys like me complain about the (insert prop plane here), we usually get told that it's just a matter of tactics... but then again most of the very same people that give this advice aren't capable of dealing with the jets. And instead of following their own advice, they ban the jets or endlessly complain about them.

You really wanna know what the BIG deal is? I want a proper counter-plane available for every plane that stands out like the 109Z does.
I don't want freakin' plane bans, just some more useful hardware. And a community that doesn't ban every plane it fears.

Take me as an example: I hate the 109Z, but I'd rather face it in battle than escaping it by simply removing it from the list.

Here's a recommendation: every server that has the 109Z should also take the YP-80 back in. It's a perfect counter for all those trigger-happy 109Z guys, who think they are uber-cool 'cause they managed to kill a bomber.
And as a counter to the P-80, the He-162 also would be nice to see again.

There are many planes available that also were created with the same hard work that forged planes like the Spitfire. Yet, that work is worth $hit if those fine planes are only rarely used.

Now, go ahead and flame me up. I think I deserve it, but I know I'm mostly right!!!!!

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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Visit us at http://www.310thvfs.com , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

PzKpfw
04-14-2004, 03:39 PM
Why would jets be banned off OL servers?

Regards, John Waters

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DaBallz
04-14-2004, 03:57 PM
This thread was not started as a whine thread.
I am simply stating the truth, a P-82B like
o'l Betty Jo at the USAF museum would be nice.
The point is not whining about the Bf-109Z's
performance, but it would add balance and was
a very effective weapon that really flew in combat.

So what if it did not fly in the "Great Patriotic War".
It could have been ready easily, but the P-51
was already a big success.

The P-51H would be a nice counter to those
uber La's and Bf-109Ks.
It also would smoke a Ki-84 in most performance
parameters.

So for all you Luftwhiners, I am not whining
about the Bf-109Z, not hardly.

The P-82B is a whole helluva lot better looking too.

Da...

noshens
04-14-2004, 05:12 PM
Oleg many times has said that P-82 will never be in game because it is impossible for this sim to simulate two pilots controlling one plane. And this is why there is no copilot in TB3. I think there was a threat in netwings or sukhoi.ru where he siad that.

crazyivan1970
04-14-2004, 05:25 PM
I think some people in this thread need a reality check... As i said before, you don`t need jet to fight the Z, or P-51h to engage so called uber La7s and K4. AEP provides enough planes to take care of all of the above. After all, it`s a pilot, end of story.

And BTW, yay1 is correct.

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

BlitzPig_DDT
04-14-2004, 06:23 PM
Future, I guess I wasn't really clear in that paragraph. There were many seperate suggestions.

Like this (assum "or" between each line) -

Host your own server and ban it.

Fly full switch (or nearly so) and most of the people likely to fly that plane will stay away to begin with, but then you can supplement that with tactics - route planning, evasion, stealth, the whole 9. Tedious and boring, but then so are bombers. lol

Really though, fly COOPs. Set the plane set how you want it to be as well as changing the entire situation of the flight. Best of all, get a human to fly as your gunner.

In either DF or COOP though, get your whole team coordinated. People that just show up and fly don't fly coordinated. With proper teamwork and comms, a *lot* can be neutralized.

Hell, even add a death kick/several minute ban. That would prevent them from crashing and burning and coming right back after you having known your last location and destination, as well as making people less gung ho and suicidal.



Banning is not needed, adding planes is not needed. But do understand, I am not against the P-82. I want all planes "of the era", blooded, or not, built and flown, or even just planned designs that were viable given the desire to actually build them. I want them all. But not as "counters" to anything. That's flawed "thinking". Actually, it's not even that, it's a method of trying to one up and plane that has serious potential. The LW guys do it too, but not nearly as much as you red-whiner types.

Did you see the "├╝ber plane" thread I started in the GD? You may like to fly bombers, you may hate that the LW can now shoot you down, but, the simple fact of the matter is, you can't drive a nail with a saw. You need the right tool for the job. If you can't succeed in your plane of choice, pick another or dump the one you have issues with. It still comes down to that, even if (insert plane here) is added.

The best way to deal with any plane is to increase the difficulty for the pilots. Drop icons, drop externals, (I hope you already have map icons off. lol), get teammates willing to work together with you on V-Comms. If you want to bomb, do it right, plan the route, know what you want to do with at the target. Plan an initial point and an egress point or to. Go in pairs or quads to split the threat. Get someone to act as a FAC if needed. Take the long (read - safe) route into the target... etc, etc.

Don't expect to jump into the air, run hell for leather right to the enemy base in your slow, relatively defenseless plane, and expect to succeed.

Oh, and BTW, the 262 is no better than the 109Z to be up against. Same armament (default) but it's a hell of a lot faster. But somehow the people kvetching about the 109Z have less problems with the 262 present because it flew combat missions and encountered the enemy. (which comes across as - they realize they have less room, if any, to complain about that one, but see themselves as having free reign on the 109Z)

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DaBallz
04-15-2004, 03:46 PM
The P-82 had one pilot, the left cockpit was
the master cockpit.
The right also had a stick, but it had
only basic gauges.


I would think it would be easy to model only the
left cockpit and leave the right blank.
Sort of like the Bf-109Z with a dummy canopy.

Da...

crazyivan1970
04-15-2004, 03:50 PM
Just be honest DaBallz, you wanna fly that plane badly and looking for excuses like 109Z hehe... am i right? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Am i? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

DaBallz
04-17-2004, 06:18 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Just be honest DaBallz, you wanna fly that plane badly and looking for excuses like 109Z hehe... am i right? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Am i? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

Yup, ^^bump^^

Da...

p1ngu666
04-17-2004, 08:34 AM
i thought the p82 wasnt actually that good?

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Willey
04-17-2004, 09:22 AM
Aww you're "whining" for another l8 war uberplane while so much planes that actually saw lots of service are still missing in the planeset. I'd rather have several Ju-88s, 188, Do-(2)17s, Hs-123, 129, Bf-110C, F, Pe-2, 3, Tu-2S, SB-2, DB-3, Il-4, A-20, B-25, B-17, B-26 etc flyable than a P-82. There are even other late war planes that were quite good like the P-47M/N that we could have. It at least makes more sense than adding a P-51H or a P-82 for for those "dogfight junkies" that need something to counter the 109Z. I dunno why they even made the Z. Also I'd give away the Go-229 (aww can't even look straight forward in this thing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif) for a Do-335 easily.

ElAurens
04-18-2004, 10:20 PM
I just want a flyable P36...

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Red_Storm
04-19-2004, 03:36 AM
Most planes still outturn the Bf-109Z. It's just the fact that most allied fighters fly the "easier" (nothing wrong with that) La-7's and Yak-3's, while the Luftboys have always been stuck with planes that would stall if you banked in a direction and had almost no forward visibility. Now when those Luftboys get a plane that turns *rather* well, they will immediately outskill the allied pilots, as they had to put up with flying extremely hard planes for so long. It's quite easy, the Yak-3, P-51 and La-7 pilots get their asses kicked and start whining. Nothing wrong with that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Willey
04-19-2004, 09:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
I just want a flyable P36...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After what I heard you'll get it in teh upcoming patch...

crazyivan1970
04-19-2004, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
I just want a flyable P36...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After what I heard you'll get it in teh upcoming patch...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

ElAurens
04-19-2004, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
I just want a flyable P36...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After what I heard you'll get it in teh upcoming patch...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My sources say otherwise....

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BlitzPig_EL

SkyChimp
04-19-2004, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
i thought the p82 wasnt actually that good?

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p1ngu666
04-19-2004, 07:40 PM
lol skychimp
just going by a rather nice mustang book i read, back in the day http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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DaBallz
04-21-2004, 03:16 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by p1ngu666:
lol skychimp
just going by a rather nice mustang book i read, back in the day http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The P-82/F-82 was that good. There was nothing
the P-51 could do that the P-82 could not do
as well or better. Performance was roughly
the same as a P-51H without the torque roll.
The Allison powered versions were not quite as fast
as the Merlin powered P-82B, but the time to climb
was better.

There was also an assortment of pods the P-82
could carry including RADAR and/or cannon(s).

The P-82 is the most successful "Twinned" aircraft
ever built. No P-82 was shot down in air to air
combat. P-82s did score kills in air to air
combat over Korea including the first "UN" kills.

Da...

ElAurens
04-21-2004, 04:59 AM
In fact, the first air to air kill by the USAF was by a P82 flying out of Japan.

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DaBallz
04-22-2004, 03:13 AM
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da...