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HansKnappstick
09-10-2004, 02:01 AM
Yes, exactly, how? Does anyone have missions or hints?

In a QMB, if I design a mission of, say, me in Bf109K against a Rata, I know I should use my climb ability or my speed advantage to extend and then fall on the Rata. But meantime I extend, the Rata has already turned against me, so it is head on again - bad chances for a Bf109. Thus I avoid and extend, while the Rata turns...

There was something about energy tactics that you should force the opponent to blow all his energy while retaining yours. Now, the AI planes just do not seem to blow energy. If my enemy is a LaGG'41, it can always direct its guns towards me when I am back from my extension part. Now, if I am in the LaGG, it has no speed after just 2 hard turns. Which is correct I suppose.

My question is, should I turn faster (as the extending airplane) so that the enemy cannot recover his energy? But then I bleed too much energy in my turn! I just don't understand the basics, it seems.

HansKnappstick
09-10-2004, 02:01 AM
Yes, exactly, how? Does anyone have missions or hints?

In a QMB, if I design a mission of, say, me in Bf109K against a Rata, I know I should use my climb ability or my speed advantage to extend and then fall on the Rata. But meantime I extend, the Rata has already turned against me, so it is head on again - bad chances for a Bf109. Thus I avoid and extend, while the Rata turns...

There was something about energy tactics that you should force the opponent to blow all his energy while retaining yours. Now, the AI planes just do not seem to blow energy. If my enemy is a LaGG'41, it can always direct its guns towards me when I am back from my extension part. Now, if I am in the LaGG, it has no speed after just 2 hard turns. Which is correct I suppose.

My question is, should I turn faster (as the extending airplane) so that the enemy cannot recover his energy? But then I bleed too much energy in my turn! I just don't understand the basics, it seems.

Cajun76
09-10-2004, 02:18 AM
I can try to give an example of what might work in this situation, assuming the classic headon encounter.

Get speed. Speed is energy, alt is potential. BnZ is often called 'energy' fighting, but you don't need altitude to BnZ, just a faster a/c.

As you approach, don't go directly toward him, make him turn toward you a bit. When you get within shooting distance, go into a medium climb and turn into him. This will do two things, increase the angle he needs on you, and pull his nose up to bleed his energy.

Continue your turn above him and climb, when you see his nose drop, he's yours.

This scenario is possible because of the capibilities of the K4 vs the Rata, but I can do much the same to Zero's when in a P-47. Use your speed and zoom climb on a slower, manueverable opponent. When a/c are more equal, the equation changes, but this might help you to understand the relationships better. It's all relative, and dynamic. Use your strengths against thier weaknesses. Hope this helps, good luck and

Good hunting,
(56th)*Cajun76
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/CajunsSig03.gif (http://www.airwarfare.com/)<Click for Mudmovers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson Hot Shots

HansKnappstick
09-10-2004, 06:00 AM
Thank you for the idea. I will try it out ASAP.

How do you suggest to look at him? From inside? Then, my climb and my turn (is it called Chandelle?) should not be very shallow, otherwise he disappears behind my 6?

tfu_iain1
09-10-2004, 06:09 AM
plus the AI cheats, so it is damn tricky to energy fight when the can out turn and out climb. fly against the same aircraft and see if it outperforms you...

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country."

Udidtoo
09-10-2004, 06:14 AM
Flying offline only I don't feel as though I have ever really gotten a grasp on the type of energy fighting skills I would require if I were able to fly online for a very basic reason.
No matter what plane you set the a.i. in 90% or more of the time it will resort to T & B behavior. Caguns tips are good but rarely do my offline opponets comply by flying their plane type properly.
A.I. will and does fly Migs,Thunderbolts and 190's exactly like it flies Zero's and Spits. Makes it tough to get a feel for any type of realistic manuvering as A.I seems to have 2 favorite counters to you haveing the upper hand.
1. High speed circle at treetop level.
2. Long spiral climb to max alltitude.

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

Cajun76
09-10-2004, 06:18 AM
Depends on your settings. Even in the pit you should be able to see him over your shoulder by rolling slightly. I'm not sure if it's called a Chandelle or not. The closest 'title' I can think of is spiral climb. And, it should be fairly steep, 35-45 degrees at least initially. Watch out for your own speed and drop the angle a bit if you start slowing down too much. Don't wait till you bleed all your speed too, always assume that there may be someone else close, it's a good habit to get into. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Good hunting,
(56th)*Cajun76
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/CajunsSig03.gif (http://www.airwarfare.com/)<Click for Mudmovers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson Hot Shots

El Turo
09-10-2004, 10:01 AM
..and after a bit of practice/experience in judging your enemy's energy state, you will be able to time your wing-over dive on them so that you arrive just as they are floundering and a big easy target, instead of waiting for them to flounder and then chasing them down.

This is often referred to as a "rope a dope" as well as a spiral climb. A "chandelle" is a sort of a climbing turn wherein you change directions at the top of said turn, but is really more of an aerobatic descriptor than a traditionally described combat manuever.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Noun 1. chandelle - a flight maneuver consisting of a steep climbing turn executed to gain altitude while changing direction <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have a lot of smash (extra speed vs. your opponent) and perhaps a climb-rate advantage over your opponent, then you should be able to spiral-climb and/or zoom-climb above them while watching them underneath you in "numpad 1" or "numpad 3" view.

The trick is to time it so they are just beginning to flounder (and be unable to get a stable firing solution on you) as you come diving back down again for the kill.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
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I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

Cajun76
09-10-2004, 10:08 AM
^ Exactly. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Good hunting,
(56th)*Cajun76
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/CajunsSig03.gif (http://www.airwarfare.com/)&lt;Click for Mudmovers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson Hot Shots

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2004, 10:22 AM
There is only one way to "look at him"; from INSIDE the cockpit.

If you're using WonderWoman view, stop. The pit, the wings, the body of the plane are FACTS OF LIFE. Learn to deal with them as you learn to deal with the plane, and with the enemy. Otherwise, you're just playing arcade, and "learning" about historical flying tactics is moot, because you're then conveniently removing factors that were present in air combat.

If you absolutely must use an external view, make tracks of your engagements, and review them after the fight. This kind of view is educational and revealing, but is NOT a combat view.

It is tough to learn energy fighting against the AI, because, as others mentioned, AI cheats, and doesn't usually set up the ideal environment for that type of fighting. So practice online. Don't be afraid to be less than competitive. We *all* get our butts kicked online some time, and it will happen to you too. Just resolve to LEARN from each failure, and make the flamings *count*.

falco_cz
09-10-2004, 12:36 PM
IMO there is no way to learn energy fighting offline, you only develop false skills.Offline is good only for gunnery tarining, that's all. Go online and will learn slowly but steadily. I have about 500 misions online and still consider myself as noob, going down in flames more then often http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

bazzaah2
09-10-2004, 12:46 PM
you can energy fight offline and to good effect; I've been trying that in both G2 and G6 against various VVS planes and it works pretty well.

I have a track or two I'm happy to share fwiw but not sure if I have any webspace to host.

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_05.gif

Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

Normally Spiny Norman was wont to be about
twelve feet from snout to tail, but when Dinsdale was depressed Norman could be
anything up to eight hundred yards long.

JG14_Josf
09-10-2004, 02:58 PM
Check here:

Robert Shaw's sustained turn technique presented by JG14_Josf (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/sustained%20turn%20technique.htm)


and here:

Eastern Skies by Mike Chapman (Il2 Guide) track files (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm)



My web page includes in game (previous version) diagrams.

Mike Chapman's track page hosts my Energy Game (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/downloads/tracks/Energy_game.zip) track file that will run on the current version of the game.

The first link was made from off-line sessions and the same technique continues to work as described on that web page even with the current version of the game against the current A.I.

There are three vital skills required in the development of this technique.

1. Understanding turn geometry: nose to nose and nose to tail or one and two circle turn geometry and turn radius separation distances (cancel lead turn separation)

2. Situational Awarness (being able to maintain: sight of the opponent and a precise evaluation of relative energy states)

3. Understanding the effects of speed on turn and vertical maneuvering performance. (maximize energy performance)

Chuck_Older
09-10-2004, 05:27 PM
I found out, way back in the original Il*2, that energy fighting was key. It was kind of an epiphany, really,

I simply watched the AI, and evry time he tried to turnfight, I made a vertical manhever he couldn't follow.

Then I learned the fun of bnz on AI.

sorry for any weirdness. i am currently drunk, but it's not my faualt. Vodka isn't supposed tofrreze in the ffreezer but my Stoli di.

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Killers in America work seven days a week~
Clash

Bull_dog_
09-10-2004, 08:15 PM
IMHO...there is no good way to truly practice energy tactics with AI cause they don't try to cut the corner and turn inside you as aggressively as a human will...that is a key element. Yes they can and will follow you at times, but human opponents are best to practice with.

LEXX_Luthor
09-10-2004, 08:25 PM
You can set up QMB missions with large dogfights (32 planes total, 16 each side) and you can BnZ fighter targets all day as most enemy AI are targeting other friendly planes. With 1944 109K against 1940 I~16 you have the speed and climb not to worry much about any AI that is targeting you.

FMB you can build 100+ aircraft missions, limited by CPU when they start engaging each other.

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