PDA

View Full Version : Battle of Britain Day.15/9



F16_Fatboy
09-14-2004, 02:51 PM
A turning point in the airwar in Europe.
Visit the Important Days in the Battle: 15 September (http://www.iwm.org.uk/upload/package/27/battleofbritain/imp15sept.htm)for further information.

FLSTF

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/Album1/sig_fatboy.jpg

F16_Fatboy
09-14-2004, 02:51 PM
A turning point in the airwar in Europe.
Visit the Important Days in the Battle: 15 September (http://www.iwm.org.uk/upload/package/27/battleofbritain/imp15sept.htm)for further information.

FLSTF

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/Album1/sig_fatboy.jpg

NorrisMcWhirter
09-14-2004, 03:55 PM
Hi,

An important day, indeed, of an incredibly important battle.

"In 1945, after the defeat of Germant, the Russians asked the Wehrmacht's most senior operation commander, Field-Marshall Gerd von Rundstedt, which battle of the war he regarded as being the most decisive. They were expecting him to say 'Stalingrad'. What he actually said was, 'The Battle of Britain.' They put away their notebooks and left."

Extract from 'The Most Dangerous Enemy' by Stephen Bungay.

S! to the brave airmen of both sides who fought, lived and died through this event.

Regards,
Norris

PS: UK-Dedicated server is running a special rememberance session tomorrow. All donations will proceed to relevant charities.

See http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=212007027

for more information.

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

'Bugs? What bugs?'
'AAA steals online kills, crash landing if good landing but out of fuel, muzzle flashes, kill given for planes that have landed OK, AI steals offline kills, gauges not working, Spitfire never overheats, FW190 view, P63 damage model, weird collision modelling...'
'Yeah, but look on the bright side - at least the 0.50s are fixed!'
Moral: $$$ + whining = anything is possible

bazzaah2
09-14-2004, 04:04 PM
hear hear!

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_05.gif

Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

Normally Spiny Norman was wont to be about
twelve feet from snout to tail, but when Dinsdale was depressed Norman could be
anything up to eight hundred yards long.

Freycinet
09-14-2004, 04:53 PM
A big salute to the valiant RAF pilots who saved Europe from a despicable tyranny!

(I definitely don't get these "salute to pilots from both sides"... - One side fought for the most atrocious dictatorship imaginable, the other for freedom and democracy. I'm happy for every German pilot killed in the Battle of Britain)

I can't wait to fly Oleg's BoB! (and yes, for both sides: it is a computer sim, not reality)

Arm_slinger
09-14-2004, 05:34 PM
Just to the RAF pilots if you dont mind http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, sure im greatful to all who took part, but this is a day for us brits and our gallent few http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Many thanks to you you gallant few, you have done us proud, and we can never thank you enough for it

Remember the dead, dont forget the living

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/j.verrall/dux_sept/sat/sat023.jpg

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/j.verrall/dux_sept/sun/sun016.jpg
S! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

242Sqn_Kye on HL

"Target for Tonight" the definitive night bombing simulation ever, featuring the RAF's Bomber Command.

www.nightbomber.com/forums (http://www.nightbomber.com/forums)
Also the home of 242 Squadron

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/Kyebromley/untitled4.bmp

[This message was edited by Arm_slinger on Tue September 14 2004 at 05:12 PM.]

jensenpark
09-14-2004, 07:58 PM
Yes, a wonderful victory. Incredible courage and sacrifice by the young flyers from the Commonwealth and many other allied countries.

My copy of Fighter Boys by Patrick Bishop arrived today from Amazon...just in time. I hear it's a great read - looking forward to it.

http://www.corsair-web.com/thistler/rtfoxint.jpg
Buzz Beurling flying his last sortie over Malta, Oct.24, 1942

-dying non-stop online as silverdart

Luftwaffe_109
09-14-2004, 08:30 PM
Freycinet, "(I definitely don't get these "salute to pilots from both sides"... - One side fought for the most atrocious dictatorship imaginable, the other for freedom and democracy. I'm happy for every German pilot killed in the Battle of Britain)"

The fact is that they both fought and died for what they believed in (ie. the defence of their country). For this both sides should be respected. A soldier does not and can not concern himself with the politics of what his Government decides, his duty is merely to serve his country and it is not for him to decide what is justified or not.

For this reason, an allied pilot is certainly no more noble or justified in war that an axis one. One certainly isn't valient simply be virtue of being on the allied side nor is being "valient" restricted to allied soldiers.

For my part at least, I honour those who fought in all wars and from all sides. A moments silence for those pilots of the RAF and Luftwaffe who died in the Battle of Britain.

Regards

wayno7777
09-14-2004, 08:46 PM
I'm a little over halfway through Duel of Eagles. Right now I'm still in August. The Few was excellent. Just want to bump Arm_slinger. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/Dux_Wreck.jpg
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Boandlgramer
09-14-2004, 11:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freycinet:
I'm happy for every German pilot killed in the Battle of Britain)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a little bit extreme,
may you could also say: i am happy for every german aircraft shot down, no matter if they were killed or bailed out.
no killed crewmember needed.

but of course, its your statement. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Boandlgramer
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:SPAM8u6WKXQJ:www.schmied-von-kochel-spiele.de/assets/images/Schmied02.jpg
Liaba boarisch steam ois kaiserlich va‚¬īdeam.

Tooz_69GIAP
09-15-2004, 01:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freycinet:
A big salute to the valiant RAF pilots who saved Europe from a despicable tyranny!

(I definitely don't get these "salute to pilots from both sides"... - One side fought for the most atrocious dictatorship imaginable, the other for freedom and democracy. I'm happy for every German pilot killed in the Battle of Britain)

I can't wait to fly Oleg's BoB! (and yes, for both sides: it is a computer sim, not reality)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm....okay, being danish I can see how you might be a little biased against the germans, but that is a little harsh to say that.

And it most certainly wasn't the worst dictatorship known to man. Stalin killed more in the Gulags than Hitler did in the camps, the US government very nearly wiped out an entire people in the 19th century (not a dictatorship, but then not all non-dictatorships are good), and there are many more besides.

The main reason the third Reich is so reviled is because of the real presence of the media in the 20th century. Had WWII happened during a time where information wasn't so easy to come by as it has been over the last 60 years, we probably wouldn't be so quick to damn. In 100 or 200 years time people will look back on WWII and probably have the opinions that we have today about the Napoleonic wars, or the American Revolutionary War, or whatever.

Just so you know, jeg er ogsaa en dansker. Nogle af min familie var draebt i Rusland med dansk SS regiment. Nogle andre haft kaempe med modstandsbevaegelsene (is that the correct word?) i Danmark, og andre kaempe i USAAF. Jeg siger at alle hvem kaempe i krig skulle har nogle respekt. En soldat skal kun taenke paa hvis han skal stadig vaere i live fra en dag til den naeste. Det er alt han skal taenke paa. Disse maend og kvinder har min respekt. Men du har forskellig ideer, det er fint.

(beklager for mit pisselort dansk http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif )

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

F16_Fatboy
09-15-2004, 02:31 AM
Today is the day when "the valiant few" airmen that defended Great Britain in the summer of 1940 are specially remembered and honoured.
As for the rest of the participants in this tragic conflict I think it is wise to realise that they where no different than you and me and that we all, with very few exceptions, would have done what they did.The lesson learned will probably unite and permanent peace in Europe but the price was forbiddingly high.

Gentlemen, unless you wish to pay respect to the valiant few please remain silent in this thread.

Thank you.

FLSTF

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/Album1/sig_fatboy.jpg

Halo_819
09-15-2004, 02:43 AM
Most definately a big fat S! to the British airmen of the BoB. It seems from the stories that I've read the pilots on both sides were more civil to each other while on the ground than some of us are towards them in retrospect. In the air of course was a different matter entirely! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I can understand how some feel towards the Germans during this battle. They were the invaders after all.....but I think one should pause and try to remember that just about all of these brave pilots, on both sides, were just kids. 20-25 years old.
I just find that amazing.
Think about what you did when you were that age.

Tooz_69GIAP
09-15-2004, 02:46 AM
Quite right Fatboy!!

Lots of respect to the "Few". Especially those from Denmark such as Kaj Birksted, Joergen Thalbitzer, Axel Svendsen and Jens Ipsen, to name but a few, who also fought with a great many other foreign nationals in the allied air forces throughout the war.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

ploughman
09-15-2004, 03:10 AM
On September 7th, 1940 the codeword "Cromwell" was issued indicating that an invasion was thought to be imminent. On the September 17th Sealion, such as it was, was cancelled. Having spoken with some of the people who were active in Britain at that time it is clear that everyone was terribly affraid of the invasion and knew that it would mean the end of the nation if it suceeded. Fear permeated everyday life in a way we can barely imagine today. What we celebrate today is that that generation had the courage to transcend this fear and survive.

A French refugee working in London during late 1940 said he was uncertain of lasting out against the Germans untill he was being driven through London during an air raid. His driver stopped at a red light, an insane thing to do with bombs falling all around. When the light changed to green and the driver moved off he said he felt certain of victory as anyone who would observe traffic etiquette under those circumstances is incapable of defeat.

Freycinet
09-15-2004, 03:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:
The fact is that they both fought and died for what they believed in (ie. the defence of their country). For this both sides should be respected.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To me it is a bit far out to think that the German pilots were "defending" their country by throwing bombs on Coventry and attacking the UK. THEY definitely knew that they were NOT just defending their country, but were in a war of conquest.

Let's not relativise the struggle of WWII by saying that all sides were more or less the same. All sides were NOT the same, and some did indeed fight for the BAD side and deserved to lose. Just imagine the world you would be living in, if Hitler had won.

The immoral precepts behind the Third Reich unfortunately also meant that immoral warfare tainted the German armed forces, including the Luftwaffe, considered at the time the most Nazified arm of the armed forces.

@Boandlgramer: Yes, OK, I can control my bloodlust so much that I can indeed wish that the German pilots in the BoB would bail out over England and end up being captured. Later in the war, when it was taken to German-occupied territories, I'm afraid I can't feel the same, "live and fight another day", etc., etc...

Freycinet
09-15-2004, 04:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
And it most certainly wasn't the worst dictatorship known to man. Stalin killed more in the Gulags than Hitler did in the camps, the US government very nearly wiped out an entire people in the 19th century (not a dictatorship, but then not all non-dictatorships are good), and there are many more besides.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the reason why the Nazi dictatorship occupies such a conspicuous place among dictatorships is because it scientifically investigated how to kill the biggest number of a particular people (Jews) in the most efficient way possible.

German culture, one of the bearers of European culture, with Mozart, Goethe, philosophers and scientists, suddenly erupted into a criminal bloodthirsty regime. A regime that took all the instruments of Modernity and Rationality and used them for completely inhuman purposes.

This is what is so shocking about the German descent into Nazi depravity: it was a modern and rational nation that suddenly went into the deepest depths of cruelty.

And definitely the Soviet dictatorship is comparable. However, the whole world was more shocked with the German case, because Russia was historically considered more "prone" to inhumanity, given the regimes of Ivan the terrible, Peter the Great, etc...

Luftwaffe_109
09-15-2004, 04:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To me it is a bit far out to think that the German pilots were "defending" their country by throwing bombs on Coventry and attacking the UK. THEY definitely knew that they were NOT just defending their country, but were in a war of conquest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all. As far as the soldiers of the armed forces were concerned, Germany and Great Brtiain were at a state of war and so the air battle over Britain (which was what needed to be done to conduct that war) was a defence of their country. Or do you hold the belief that the invasion of Fortress Europe by the allies was morally wrong because they were no longer defending their homeland? Double standards perhaps? The fact is that both sides were at war and both sides were doing what they could to bring about military victory for their respective nations.

As for Coventry, I could easily point to the strategic bombing campaign of Germany which was conducted with the very same mentality as that conducted during the Blitz. War is hell and no side is clean. A soldier shouldn't be condemned simply for doing his duty just because he isn't on "your side".

Finally, this notion of conquest is absurd. There was never any intention of conquering Great Britain. Hitler's military ambitions are well known as certainly never involved the British Isles. For him, the war with Brtain was an unwanted one, but I digress.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Let's not relativise the struggle of WWII by saying that all sides were more or less the same. All sides were NOT the same, and some did indeed fight for the BAD side and deserved to lose. Just imagine the world you would be living in, if Hitler had won.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While it is certainly the case that it is fortunate that Germany did not win the war, it is not the case that soldiers fighting for the axis somehow deserved to die. All soldiers simply do their duty, the politics of their nations are irrelevant. Merely stating the the allies were "on the good side" and the axis "on the bad" is also a gross simplification of history. Need I mention that the allies were also involved in condemable acts (eg. Rhine Meadow Camp deaths, strategic bombing of civilian centres on unprecedented scale, etc)? Do we merely condenm all allied soldiers because of these? Of course not. Spare a thought for those unfourtunate enough to have to serve in this war and recognise that, if you had been in the same position your responce would have been much the same.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The immoral precepts behind the Third Reich unfortunately also meant that immoral warfare tainted the German armed forces, including the Luftwaffe, considered at the time the most Nazified arm of the armed forces.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So what immoral preceptes were behiond the tainting of immoral warfare of the Allied armed forces? No side can be said to be blameless in war. By your logic you should surely brand the RAF as despicable for its own raids on German cities, which resulted in far greater casualties that the Battle of Britain and the Blitz.



To the others I apologise for this. But Freycinet is responsible for this by his simplistic claim that Allied soldier = good, axis soldier = bad.

To draw a modern comparison. Many vehmantly disagree with the war in Iraq, and brand it as agression by the US. But regardless of the politics, it is absurd to condem the unfourtunate soldiers that fight in such wars. They simply do what they are expected to do as soldiers. No more no less. There is no reason why such can not be the case with German soldiers in WWII.

But then again, it's so much easier to see things in black and white and believe that simplist fiction that: my nation is compltely righteous and has never done wrong (you seemed to just shrug off the point made by another forum member about the near-extermination of the American Indians) while the enemy is pure evil, isn't it Freycinet?

Regards

[This message was edited by Luftwaffe_109 on Wed September 15 2004 at 03:49 AM.]

LeadSpitter_
09-15-2004, 05:16 AM
S to them Brits.

http://www.teacaddy.czi.cz/images/caddies/Old0811b.jpg

and some wwii smokes

http://www.vahistory.org/WWII/vhs/vhs0076.jpg

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

Arm_slinger
09-15-2004, 05:33 AM
Freycinet mate, kindly shut up or pack up. We dont wont a political debate on who did what and whos bbad or not http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. This is just a simple thread to pay respects to the men who fought. Anyone thinking of keeping up the politics, just knock it off

Earl Grey? No pictures of PG tips or tetley Lead? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I suppose its better than the stereotypical can of spam everyone associaties with us Brits http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

242Sqn_Kye on HL

"Target for Tonight" the definitive night bombing simulation ever, featuring the RAF's Bomber Command.

www.nightbomber.com/forums (http://www.nightbomber.com/forums)
Also the home of 242 Squadron

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/Kyebromley/untitled4.bmp

Freycinet
09-15-2004, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:
To the others I apologise for this. But Freycinet is responsible for this by his simplistic claim that Allied soldier = good, axis soldier = bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you cannot see the difference between institutionalized war crimes committed en masse by an agressor nation and the justified defence by the nations attacked, then there is no resaon to take this further.

The Western Allies certainly also had cases of war crimes, but these were not the result of institutionalized policies by military or civilian leaders. As for the bombings of Germany, that was just the level the war was being fought on, the level set by Germany over Warsaw and Amsterdam in -39 and -40.

Every dead German soldier meant that the war was one step closer to its conclusion, so I cannot but rejoice over the German military deaths, each of them saved unnecessary civilian casualties.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:
But then again, it's so much easier to see things in black and white and believe that simplist fiction that: my nation is compltely righteous and has never done wrong (you seemed to just shrug off the point made by another forum member about the near-extermination of the American Indians) while the enemy is pure evil, isn't it Freycinet?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, what is sad is that YOU cannot see the difference between truly criminal regimes and generally rightful and good countries. Certainly Nazi-Germany had some good and honourable soldiers and certainly the Western Allies had cases of the opposite.

But the fact that reality isn't all black or white doesn't change that one regime was criminal and inhuman and its opponents were basically fighting for the good causes that we enjoy in the Western world today.

WWII was not about "black Germany" and "white Western Allies", but any thinking person will know that that's not how it is in the real world AND STILL MAKE A CHOICE between the 1) worst and the 2) least-bad/good/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

(BTW, you can have the last word, I said what I need to say in this thread).

[This message was edited by Freycinet on Wed September 15 2004 at 05:19 AM.]

NorrisMcWhirter
09-15-2004, 06:16 AM
Hi,

Leave it out, chaps - this isn't what this thread is about.

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

'Bugs? What bugs?'
'AAA steals online kills, crash landing if good landing but out of fuel, muzzle flashes, kill given for planes that have landed OK, AI steals offline kills, gauges not working, Spitfire never overheats, FW190 view, P63 damage model, weird collision modelling...'
'Yeah, but look on the bright side - at least the 0.50s are fixed!'
Moral: $$$ + whining = anything is possible

BSS_Goat
09-15-2004, 06:27 AM
S! to the RAF

http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~wingman/thumbs/p40-04jerry-thumb.jpg

http://www.blacksheep214.com/

Patriotism is your conviction
that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it
--George Bernard Shaw

x6BL_Brando
09-15-2004, 06:44 AM
I salute a bunch of men & boys who carried on taking to the air, though grossly outnumbered, to fight against an evil tyranny that threatened to invade my sovereign country as it had done to so many already. Among them I number my mother's first husband, who died aged twenty, lost with his Hurricane over the Channel http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Perhaps I could mention my father, who lost most of his family in the Blitz...he wasn't one of the Few, but he had good reason to honour them. He's dead now - but I know he'd be horrified to hear that we should honouring the "gallant" aircrew that blew his life to pieces "in the name of the Fatherland".
Apologists and reconciliationists beware.... Battle of Britain Day is for remembering the fallen heroes of the Commonwealth and it's allies...not the aggressors.

Monty_Thrud
09-15-2004, 07:31 AM
Salute to the British and Commonwealth men and women on the ground and in the air...and thank you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Although we dont live in a perfect world today, it would have been a sad day for free thinking people if the Nazi countries had won.

...........TO THE FEW http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif...........

http://premium.uploadit.org/bsamania/aaf.jpg

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://premium.uploadit.org/bsamania/hurricaneheaven.jpg

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://premium.uploadit.org/bsamania/mkIspits610sqn.jpg

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://premium.uploadit.org/bsamania/boultonpauldefiant.jpg

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://premium.uploadit.org/bsamania/NZ-Merlin-2.jpg

http://premium.uploadit.org/bsamania/HurricaneIVD_cartoon2-copyns11.jpg
"I won't let go of that youthful soul despite body and mind
my youth will never die" - CREED

NTESLA
09-15-2004, 08:33 AM
Here is my Salute to those brave men :


A contribution that I am still working on -

http://pauke.ee.ethz.ch:8732/oberstguncam/Frameset/moviespage38Thx1138Trail.htm

http://fluxout.homestead.com/files/Thx-32x.jpg

"You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you"

Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

F16_Fatboy
09-15-2004, 08:55 AM
Thank you Ntesla! Very talented work.

Most of us are to young to have participated in the WW2 and have no guilt in what took place, but days such us this gives us an opportunity to look back and reflect on the course of history. Honouring the heros and trying to to understand the motivation and motives of the others. So that we shall not make the same mistake again! That is what history is all about and that is why we have ceremonial days such as this in varius parts of the world.

Another good page for the 15/9 1940 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/september15.html), pay atention to the pictures on the bottom of the page.

And the Roll of Honour (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/roll.html). Scroll down the page and look at the right hand column.

FLSTF

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/Album1/sig_fatboy.jpg

Arm_slinger
09-15-2004, 09:51 AM
Lovely vid indeed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Sir Winstons voice never ceases to captivate me, or make me go cold

And to see the delightful Bob Doe and to listen to him, makes me proud

242Sqn_Kye on HL

"Target for Tonight" the definitive night bombing simulation ever, featuring the RAF's Bomber Command.

www.nightbomber.com/forums (http://www.nightbomber.com/forums)
Also the home of 242 Squadron

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/Kyebromley/untitled4.bmp

trumper
09-15-2004, 11:41 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifWell said Kye,lets remember those that gave their lives and others that lost loved ones at this time 64 years ago.
Nobody would know for sure what would've happened had the B o B not been fought and the outcome being what it was.

tonywizzz
09-15-2004, 12:11 PM
S! Not just Brits though! Please look here:-

http://www.geocities.com/skrzydla/

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/Tony_Wizzz/il2/fis_banner_08.gif

Getting Shot Down On-Line as :FI:Grecian

http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/v79/Tony_Wizzz/il2/RAF%20307%20Squadron%20Wijaszko/

http://www.geocities.com/skrzydla/

wayno7777
09-15-2004, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>taking to the air, though grossly outnumbered,.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, not quite as true as books lead you to believe...regardless ~S~ to Dowding's forsight, without it the Luftwaffe may have succeeded in their quest.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/Dux_Wreck.jpg
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Nexus2005
09-15-2004, 01:32 PM
Without those brave pilots and the brilliant British engineers Mitchell and Royce, who never lived to see what their work did for their country, and countless others right down to the worker on the shop floor, Britain and the rest of Europe would have been lost for good. All peoples of Europe owe them a great debt.

While I respect the German pilots and am sad that so many had to die, the fact is that they were fighting on the side of conquest and mass murder. They deserve our sympathy, but not our thanks or admiration.

The Polish pilots deserve much admiration and respect, they came to fight for our country and did a fantastic job only to see their own country handed over to the Russians at the end of the war. These men truly were and are un sung heroes.

http://www.bobcs.co.uk/sig/Nexussig/sig2.jpg
"They can't take the Spitfires Mitch, they can't take them..."

[This message was edited by Nexus2005 on Wed September 15 2004 at 03:35 PM.]

[This message was edited by Nexus2005 on Wed September 15 2004 at 03:39 PM.]

Loki-PF
09-15-2004, 02:25 PM
Good God! A hitler apologist in a thread honouring the Battle of Britain.... Some Cheek. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Loki-PF
09-15-2004, 02:29 PM
To The Allied Airmen who fought and died in the battle of Britain.... Thank you for your dedication and suffering. Your sacrifice kept the flame of liberty and democracy burning in the face of the hurricane like wind of Fascism and totalitarianism.

Luftwaffe_109
09-15-2004, 11:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freycinet:
If you cannot see the difference between institutionalized war crimes committed en masse by an agressor nation and the justified defence by the nations attacked, then there is no resaon to take this further.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you cannot distinguish between the fact that institutionalised war crimes were NOT commited by the Wehrmact (many other war crimes did happen, yes but they certainly were not institutionalised, for example the concerntraition camps and death camps were NOT the responcibility of the armed forces at all but of the WVHA department of the SS) then I am glad that you can not see a reason to continue this discussion.

If you can call massive bombing of population centres (several orders of magnitude worse than bombing campaigns of axis nations)or nuclear bombing of civilan cities, or naval blocade of nations, etc, justified then there is no point in condemning the actions of the axis soldiers. You are a hypocrite. You seem to subscribe to the popular belief of: when I do it, it is ok, when they do it, it is bad. Oddly enough it is just this kind of mentality which precipitates war.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No, what is sad is that YOU cannot see the difference between truly criminal regimes and generally rightful and good countries. Certainly Nazi-Germany had some good and honourable soldiers and certainly the Western Allies had cases of the opposite.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one is claiming that the NSDAP was not criminal, least of all me. You obviously have some agenda, because my only point was that you can not brand individual soldiers evil and their deaths a matter for rejoicing because of the army they belong to. Because that was their misfortune certainly doesn't neccessarily mean that the majority couldn't be just as honourable as allied soldiers. I doubt if you were put in their shoes you would have acted any differently.

A case in point: the British will testify as to the chivalry shown by the Germans in both Greece, Africa and Holland during their battles with them. Sorry, but I hold their opinions in higher esteem than yours.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Good God! A hitler apologist in a thread honouring the Battle of Britain.... Some Cheek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope that was not directed at me because if it was I can only say that you are a fool who can't even read what I wrote. For your information my nation (Greece) suffured quite a lot at the hands of German occupation during World War II. Maybe, you should read of the horrible famine that was caused because of the war and the suffering it produced in my country. Your slur is disgusting and you should be ashamed.

Since it is obvious that opinions here are not mature enough to recognise that all sides (axis and allied) suffur in war (and your own side isn't simply the righteous torch bearer of liberty to the world, with the enemy the evil minions from hell) then this is the last post from me. Obviously realising that the other side was human is quite beyoud your one-dimentional vision, and you prefer to believe in a simplistic view of the world.

Regards

reverse5
09-16-2004, 12:49 AM
1.4 Million of my countrymen died as a direct result of Wermacht. Salute to all Allied nations soldiers! And above all, salute to Brits who blodied German nose first.

Oh, and I am surprised by many "apologetic" remarks - such as "to all soldiers that fought". C'mon guys. We all know who the good guys were. There is not a single logical point that anybody can make by which Wermacht and all its soldiers should be thrown in with our dead heroes, being American or British or Russian...

Nexus2005
09-16-2004, 05:23 AM
The German soldiers, while not necessarily evil themselves (although at least some were) were fighting on the side of evil. That makes them "the bad guys".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The fact is that they both fought and died for what they believed in (ie. the defence of their country). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just because somebody is "fighting for what they believe in" or "fighting for their country" does make what they do right or honourable. Al-Qaeda are fighting for what they believe in, does that make them honourable? Of course not. A person's actions make them honourable or not, fighting for the conquest of europe is not an honourable act no matter how you dress it up.

Days like this are to remember and pay tribute to the people who fought for our freedom, not those who fought to destroy it. I'm sure Germany has it's own special days to remember it's own soldiers that died entirely through Germany's own fault. We remember with pride what our soldiers did for us, Germany should remember with disgust what it made its soldiers do (I don't know how Germany feels about the war, but I should hope it is something like this). That is the difference. To try and merge these two kinds of days with two very different messages and lessons to be learnt is wrong.

http://www.bobcs.co.uk/sig/Nexussig/sig2.jpg
"They can't take the Spitfires Mitch, they can't take them..."

Bearcat99
09-16-2004, 05:53 AM
Why is it that whenever someone posts a thread like this someone comes along and feels that they have to even the field of praise by making it a hooray for all thread. BUL$HIT!!!! Im with Frey on this one and the original poster. If you want to make a hooray for WW2 pilots thread then make your own d@mn thread. This post was started by a Brit in praise of the allied particularly British scrifice made during the BoB. If you want to praise the Luftwaffe then find something worth remembering and post it. This same nonsense reminds me of the 9/11 threads that some people tried to turn into "mourn the victims of terrorism worldwide" thread. Its a bunch of BS. You German pilots should not feel that you have to jump on every thread to even the score. Your grandparents generation fecked up. It happens in human history all the time. Get over it and stop trying to defend yourselves in every little thread that pops up praising the men who stopped the Nazi threat in its tracks with much blood and guts. This is in no way a negative reflection on your current generation but face it, it is a stain on your history just like the slave trade and the near extermination of millions of Native Americans is a stain on my contrie's history. It happened. Get over it. Concentrtate on the men and the machines.... and the battles if you like but if you cant seperate the politics of yesterday from the reality of today then maybe you should find another pastime. Dont tarnish threads like this one, that would otherwise be good snippets of history with that BS.
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959)
IMMERSION BABY!!

Arm_slinger
09-16-2004, 07:01 AM
SH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I SCREWED UP!!!

I just had to re read all this thread again, and i agree with Frey, even if his veiw is a bit too strong. A massive apology to you Frey for telling you to shut up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

242Sqn_Kye on HL

"Target for Tonight" the definitive night bombing simulation ever, featuring the RAF's Bomber Command.

www.nightbomber.com/forums (http://www.nightbomber.com/forums)
Also the home of 242 Squadron

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/Kyebromley/untitled4.bmp

PraetorHonoris
09-16-2004, 07:39 AM
My good old bearcat, please try to stay a little more cautious and think before you write something like

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You German pilots should not feel that you have to jump on every thread to even the score. Your grandparents generation fecked up. It happens in human history all the time. Get over it and stop trying to defend yourselves in every little thread that pops up praising the men who stopped the Nazi threat in its tracks with much blood and guts<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually only one (i.e. 1) German postet in this thread until now and he did not defend anything!
So I won't. It is a shame that great generations of German soldiers were (somehow) involved in such terrible crime, like Hitler's war was.
If they fought with chivalry and were not involved into crimes I will honor them. You don't have to.
My heart is bleeding whenever somebody says, that every dead German was a step to end this war - because that is true.

I hope that you will realise once, that you should not condemn a whole people.

Fortunatly, many of the great men, who fought, did realise that already. They were enemies but became friends, think on Rall and Zemke, Stigler and Brown and so on.
I praise the such people and I am disgusted by people, who still think in terms of "Nazis", "Jap" and so on...

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7306/Aermelband.jpg

He casts his eyes to heaven's blue,
From where past heroes hold the view,
And swears pugnaciously the oath,
You Rhine and I stay German, both.

westcoastphil
09-16-2004, 08:52 AM
Day late...but better late than never
Lancaster & Spit Flyby 2004 (http://www.scaleworkshop.com/workshop/video23bg_1.htm)

I had forgotten yesterday was BOB day, funny enough though, I had purchased a DVD burner and it was due to arrive the same day. Well I thought I'd mark the occasion with the purchase of a new DVD (I was at Borders shopping) so I didn't want to spend major money on a movie and saw that BOB was on sale for $13. I picked it up and after watching it I realized the date. Happy coincidence...err respectful coincidence. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://members.cox.net/riknbkr330/vox_girl_stand.jpg
Westcoastphil = Voxman

NorrisMcWhirter
09-16-2004, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Why is it that whenever someone posts a thread like this someone comes along and feels that they have to even the field of praise by making it a hooray for all thread. BUL$HIT!!!! Im with Frey on this one and the original poster. If you want to make a hooray for WW2 pilots thread then make your own d@mn thread. This post was started by a Brit in praise of the allied particularly British scrifice made during the BoB. If you want to praise the Luftwaffe then find something worth remembering and post it. This same nonsense reminds me of the 9/11 threads that some people tried to turn into "mourn the victims of terrorism worldwide" thread. Its a bunch of BS. You German pilots should not feel that you have to jump on every thread to even the score. Your grandparents generation fecked up. It happens in human history all the time. Get over it and stop trying to defend yourselves in every little thread that pops up praising the men who stopped the Nazi threat in its tracks with much blood and guts. This is in no way a negative reflection on your current generation but face it, it is a stain on your history just like the slave trade and the near extermination of millions of Native Americans is a stain on my contrie's history. It happened. Get over it. Concentrtate on the men and the machines.... and the battles if you like but if you cant seperate the politics of yesterday from the reality of today then maybe you should find another pastime. Dont tarnish threads like this one, that would otherwise be good snippets of history with that BS.
http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org_vflyer@comcast.net_ http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959
_IMMERSION BABY!!_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

I'm quite English and don't agree with Germany's expansion in WW2 or Nazi ideology ( I should hope not, I read the Guardian http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ); I'm also patriotic towards my own country. However, I didn't think that meant that I couldn't pay respects to the young airmen of Germany who lost their lives, too. Bear in mind that a lot of pilots from both sides have met after the war and become great friends - should they have held grudges and not moved on, too? That is dangerous, in itself.

I'm also not so naive, in retrospect, to realise that this salute may not have been entirely suitable for the thread; in that respect, I apologise for any upset caused. But, I'm also quite surprised by the attitude that I've seen here.

Regards,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

'Bugs? What bugs?'
'AAA steals online kills, crash landing if good landing but out of fuel, muzzle flashes, kill given for planes that have landed OK, AI steals offline kills, gauges not working, Spitfire never overheats, FW190 view, P63 damage model, weird collision modelling...'
'Yeah, but look on the bright side - at least the 0.50s are fixed!'
Moral: $$$ + whining = anything is possible

Bearcat99
09-16-2004, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
If they fought with chivalry and were not involved into crimes I will honor them. You don't have to.
My heart is bleeding whenever somebody says, that every dead German was a step to end this war - because that is true.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By all means honor them. I would honor them too if they met the criteria you stated, and I have. I just wouldnt pick a thread honoring the British sacrifice in the Battle of Britain to do it. I know that all the German soldiers were not Nazis..... of course not. From what I understand most of them just wanted to get home to their families but they got caught up. Early on many Germans knew they were going down the wrong path but were powerless to stop it. Those who tried often ended up in camps or worse.

reverse5 I think you misunderstand what Im saying. To honor fallen soldiers of either side is an honorable thing. I just wouldnt honor fallen German soldiers in a thread honoring British ones.. or vice versa. No need to get personal with PH.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959)
IMMERSION BABY!!

[This message was edited by Bearcat99 on Thu September 16 2004 at 01:27 PM.]

reverse5
09-16-2004, 02:21 PM
I have no problem with modern Germany - the fact is I admire Germans for all the obvious reasons: discipline, quality of engineering and workmanship, and above all - balanced political system and thriving democracy. I've been in Germany and I had great personal experiences with Germans.
That being said, I am going to mention that I am of Serb nationality. I do not believe in statement "my country, right or wrong". I was discusted by what leadership of Serbian people in Serbia, Bosnia or Croatia attempted to achieve. I left my country because I did not want to participate in Fascist struggle that majority of Serbs supported directly or indirestly. I can also say that Serb military had all the fascist overtones of German military in WWII. I would not try to defend in any situation of what my countryman did. They commited atrocities, and when Clinton decided to stop them in '95, I fully supported his action. So, meine freunde, I can personally relate to what you Germans feel about role of your own nation in WWII. What i can't support is equalisation of Allied and German soldiers of WWII. Allies fought for freedom from Fascist German dominance - Germans fought for "Lebensraum" and erradication of "Untermensch". I salute brave Allied soldiers of WWII and I sympathise with German soldiers who realised what evil they are fighting for.

Now, I do sincerely apologise to you Praetoris for calling you a Nazi - WWII issues wake wery strong sentiment within me - and I feel very passionate about it. All I am asking is not to taint this great victory of Allies against Hitler by equalizing sides of this tragic war.

Bearcat99
09-16-2004, 02:30 PM
Now that was nice..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
So yeah.. Happy BoB day.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959)
IMMERSION BABY!!

PraetorHonoris
09-16-2004, 02:35 PM
Let us forget this.

Bearcat, a Mod can delete posts, I think you now have some to delete. As trumper said, they are ashaming... I am sorry for overreacting, I am sensitive concerning some things as well.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7306/Aermelband.jpg

He casts his eyes to heaven's blue,
From where past heroes hold the view,
And swears pugnaciously the oath,
You Rhine and I stay German, both.

Loki-PF
09-16-2004, 03:10 PM
I think the point is lost here. It's a subtle one so I'll type slowly and use small words so everyone will get it.

It was the anniversary of the Battle of "Britain"

We were honoring the "British" pilots who fought it.

Someone threw in something about honoring German pilots.

People who had forefathers who died fighting those German pilots to stop Nazi aggresion got testy

Is the anniversary of the Battle of Britain celebrated in Germany?

Didn't think so.

Wanna honor German Pilots?

Kewl, start another thread. To try to do it in one that was created to celebrate the sacrifice of those who died fighting them is STOOPID

Get it?

Bearcat99
09-16-2004, 03:18 PM
OK... if this thread makes no sense its because I deleted a bunch of stuff.. let it suffice to say that the issue has been amicably resolved.. and we are honoring The Battle of Britiain.

Praetor both you and reverse5 are men of honor AFIC. ~S~

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959)
IMMERSION BABY!!

Capt.England
09-16-2004, 03:35 PM
Big S! to all the allies who helped us in our hour of need!

It's just a shame that we in this isle, do not celebrate the day with a public holiday. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Britwhiner No.1

Freycinet
09-16-2004, 06:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arm_slinger:
SH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I SCREWED UP!!!

I just had to re read all this thread again, and i agree with Frey, even if his veiw is a bit too strong. A massive apology to you Frey for telling you to shut up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

242Sqn_Kye on HL
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Accepted! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.cbobank.net/images/shake_hands.jpg

Bearcat99
09-16-2004, 10:25 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959)
IMMERSION BABY!!