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frag_bravo
02-13-2004, 07:42 PM
37mm off the P-39.Did go inside and buzz around like a bee?Or did it bounce off like a rain droplet?

frag_bravo
02-13-2004, 07:42 PM
37mm off the P-39.Did go inside and buzz around like a bee?Or did it bounce off like a rain droplet?

faustnik
02-13-2004, 08:04 PM
The Soviets only had HE rounds for the Cobra so it just exploded outside the tank. I'm sure it made a nice noise though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
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frag_bravo
02-13-2004, 08:08 PM
What a nasty sight,

02-13-2004, 08:11 PM
The Oldsmobile cannon was rather low velocity anyway. Even AP rounds would have had a hard time.

frag_bravo
02-13-2004, 08:13 PM
What about a hit on the top turret,That is where the armor is thinest.

faustnik
02-13-2004, 10:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frag_bravo:
What about a hit on the top turret,That is where the armor is thinest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, still 25mm. HE won't work, unless the tank commander leaves the hatch open.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)

chris455
02-13-2004, 11:12 PM
The Soviets did very little air to ground work in the P-39- contrary to post war Western sources.

The may never have been a single incident of this "Airacobra vs Tiger" scenario.

"Attack of the Airacobras" (Dimitry Loza) gives a somewhat biased acccount of what the Soviets really did use the P-39 for, as an air superiority fighter and attack plane (IL2) escort.

S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

kubanloewe
02-14-2004, 05:01 AM
kill a Tiger is no big Problem with a 37mm yak http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/yaktiger.jpg
http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/yaktiger1.jpg

"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherrr Manfred von Richthofen

Red_Storm
02-14-2004, 05:06 AM
A few .50 rounds in FB kill Tigers too, while MG-151/20's won't. Go figure.

Bill_Lester
02-14-2004, 06:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
The Soviets did very little air to ground work in the P-39- contrary to post war Western sources..."Attack of the Airacobras" (Dimitry Loza) gives a somewhat biased acccount of what the Soviets really did use the P-39 for, as an air superiority fighter and attack plane (IL2) escort. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that the truth?! Every time some "documentary" mentions the P-39 & -63, it's always noted how the Soviets used them for tank busting. I want to pull my hair when I hear this gross error reported over and over. It appears that each "documentary" writer quotes the last.

"It seemed as though the only way a Thunderbolt could be shot down was if its pilot were asleep in its comfortable cockpit." Grumman test pilot Corky Meyer

resev
02-14-2004, 06:26 AM
The only way for a 37mm to disable a Tiger 2, would be to hit its tracks repeatedly, but that kind of precise shooting is almost impossible to acomplish.

For the Tiger 1, hitting the rear was required to disable, even destroy it permanently, but altough an easier target, it was still by no means an easy task.


There is a report by Golodnikov (confirmed), where a 3000/3500tons tanker (armoured boat) was destroyed by the full provisions of ammo of a Cobra 37mm.
Now that is an impressive feat, but then again, a tanker is a sore thumb target, when compared to a tank.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/resev/images/2-picture2.gif?0.3524929147671928

Engrs
02-14-2004, 06:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
The Soviets did very little air to ground work in the P-39- contrary to post war Western sources.

The may never have been a single incident of this "Airacobra vs Tiger" scenario.

"Attack of the Airacobras" (Dimitry Loza) gives a somewhat biased acccount of what the Soviets really did use the P-39 for, as an air superiority fighter and attack plane (IL2) escort.

S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It wasn't just a post war idea.

From Aircraft of the Fighting Powers Vol.5 published October 1944, regarding the P39Q.

' In Russia the Airacobra has been especially effective as a ground attack fighter and 'tank-buster.' rather along the lines of the Sturmovik.'

It states that all info comes from official or neutral sources.

Engrs

Aka D13-th_Sapper

MandMs
02-14-2004, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by resev:

For the Tiger 1, hitting the rear was required to disable, even destroy it permanently, but altough an easier target, it was still by no means an easy task.


There is a report by Golodnikov (confirmed), where a 3000/3500tons tanker (armoured boat) was destroyed by the full provisions of ammo of a Cobra 37mm.
Now that is an impressive feat, but then again, a tanker is a sore thumb target, when compared to a tank.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Tiger I had rear armour 80mm thick which was 20mm more than the hull.

p1ngu666
02-14-2004, 06:46 AM
engine hatches etc?

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

MandMs
02-14-2004, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
engine hatches etc?

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Access to the engine was by lifting a solid 25mm thick hatch. Top decking was 25mm thick.

http://www.onwar.com/tanks/index.htm

resev
02-14-2004, 08:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MandMs:The Tiger I had rear armour 80mm thick which was 20mm more than the hull.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Its possible, i don't have a large knowledge database when it comes to tanks.
Perhaps i'm mistaking it with an earlier Panzer.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/resev/images/2-picture2.gif?0.3524929147671928

panther3485
02-14-2004, 09:11 AM
Hi guys!

I do have a very extensive armour database, on account of being a 'tank nut' for many years before turning to aircraft. It is my pleasure and privilege to supply data:

Armour thicknesses for Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf E Sd Kfz 181 (otherwise known as TIGER I or just plain 'TIGER')

Hull sides, lower - 60mm
Hull sides, upper - 80mm
Hull rear - 80mm
Hull front, lower - 100mm
Hull front, upper - 100mm
Turret sides/rear - 80mm
Turret front - 100mm
Gun mantlet - 100mm
Roof/decking/hull floor - 25mm

It should be noted that only 1,354 of these tanks were built, July '42 to August '44.

Best regards to all,
panther3485

Taylortony
02-14-2004, 10:30 AM
There was an excellent colour programme on the discovery channel in the UK of newly released film on the the European War showing straffing of about everything including the day they put about 1000 fighters over The Reich to nullify the Luftwaffe in a single day, destroying over 800 Aircraft on the Ground, the colour gun camera shots were staggering.
It covered mainly the P47, A Pilot of one of the P47 explained if the Tiger was towing a fuel trailer as they often did they would take that out, but the normal technique they used was to bounce the 0.50" rounds off the mettalized road surface and under the tank as the belly was unarmoured, this was how they killed the Tigers.

Also showed them napalming Panzer tanks, said made no difference if hatches were open, just took longer if they were shut as it would sufocate them and cook em alive inside it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif worst of all it showed that most of the supply columns were horse drawn and they showed a lot of footage of them straffing them, pilot they said the horses would often jump as much as 20 foot into the Air trying to get away http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

was having a bad size day lol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by Taylortony on Sat February 14 2004 at 12:30 PM.]

MandMs
02-14-2004, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taylortony:
There was an excellent colour programme on the discovery channel in the UK of newly released film on the the European War showing straffing of about everything including the day they put about 1000 fighters over The Reich to nullify the Luftwaffe in a single day, destroying over 800 Aircraft on the Ground, the colour gun camera shots were staggering.
It covered mainly the P47, A Pilot of one of the P47 explained if the Tiger was towing a fuel trailer as they often did they would take that out, but the normal technique they used was to bounce the 50mm rounds off the mettalized road surface and under the tank as the belly was unarmoured, this was how they killed the Tigers.

Also showed them napalming Panzer tanks, said made no difference if hatches were open, just took longer if they were shut as it would sufocate them and cook em alive inside it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif worst of all it showed that most of the supply columns were horse drawn and they showed a lot of footage of them straffing them, pilot they said the horses would often jump as much as 20 foot into the Air trying to get away http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Now we know why the 0.50" could 'kill' Tigers, they were 50mm/2.00" shells fired by the M2HB.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by MandMs on Sat February 14 2004 at 10:02 AM.]

histrionic
02-14-2004, 11:53 AM
lol 50mm shells! Woot! 8 50mm shells at the disposal of a p47 pilot, hahahhahaah couldve squashed the luftwaffe no problem.

02-14-2004, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frag_bravo:
What about a hit on the top turret,That is where the armor is thinest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, still 25mm. HE won't work, unless the tank commander leaves the hatch open.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
http://www.7jg77.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/comp2.gif

HansKnappstick
02-14-2004, 12:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>bounce the 50mm rounds off the mettalized road surface <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes the roads in Europe are usually metalized. Be sure.

Engrs
02-14-2004, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>bounce the 50mm rounds off the mettalized road surface <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes the roads in Europe are usually metalized. Be sure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He means 'Metalled'. Metallized is also acceptable. It's a construction technique that does not require metal. Merely various grades of aggregate, and tarmac. All hard runways are considered metalled. Trust me I was a Combat Engineer for 13 years.

I still do not believe the feat is possible. The rounds would penetrate the road surface, not bounce or richochet.

Engrs

NegativeGee
02-14-2004, 06:44 PM
I agree. Even if the rounds did bounce off the road surface, they would not have enough "oomph" to penetrate the floor armour of the tank.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

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Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

Xiolablu3
02-15-2004, 03:10 AM
The prog was called 'Thunderbolts-conquest of the reich' and had some of the best WW2 footage in it that I have seen.

I felt sorry for those horses too. :/

Taylortony
02-15-2004, 06:41 AM
Correct Xiolablu, that was the programme, I had forgotten the Title, as the rest..... you asked how they did it, i told you exactly what the combat pilot involved said, now if you "armchair experts" are not going to believe him, well who am i to disuade you, but he was there and doing it in real life combat as opposed to sitting at a desk in your living room and having a pop at me....

Thanks Engrs for putting them right, a little knowledge is dangerous in some peoples hands, as the fact that they have heard of metallized road surfaces seems to mean it never existed, Having been in the RAF and lived in Germany I knew what it is http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.......

Rounds do richochet by the way, I spent 3 Years on a Jaguar GR1 Ground attack Squadron and we had a minimum distance to cease fire on ground straffing with the two 30mm Aden guns otherwise the Jag would be on the recieving end of the rounds bouncing back up into the air as it passed over the target, One of our Jets took a 30MM through the intake and grazed the canopy next to the pilots head, another had a dirty great crease under one wing where one had bounced of the bottom of the wing.. Least these 2 pilots learnt from it and never went to close again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



We all make the odd typo, when you are perfect then feel free to have a go, but i would add, they have never printed a copy of the Bible yet without at least one typo error, and thats been round a while..............

Jippo01
02-15-2004, 06:51 AM
The problem with the "bouncing theory" really is that the tanks had/still have pretty equal amount of armor on top and bottom (remember anti-tank mines http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). .50's could not penetrate the tank top directly, so how could they gain energy by hitting the road and then penetrate equally tough bottom of the tank?


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

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MandMs
02-15-2004, 06:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taylortony:
There was an excellent colour programme on the discovery channel in the UK of newly released film on the the European War showing straffing of about everything including the day they put about 1000 fighters over The Reich to nullify the Luftwaffe in a single day, destroying over 800 Aircraft on the Ground, the colour gun camera shots were staggering.
It covered mainly the P47, A Pilot of one of the P47 explained if the Tiger was towing a fuel trailer as they often did they would take that out, but the normal technique they used was to bounce the 0.50" rounds off the mettalized road surface and under the tank as the belly was unarmoured, this was how they killed the Tigers.

Also showed them napalming Panzer tanks, said made no difference if hatches were open, just took longer if they were shut as it would sufocate them and cook em alive inside it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif worst of all it showed that most of the supply columns were horse drawn and they showed a lot of footage of them straffing them, pilot they said the horses would often jump as much as 20 foot into the Air trying to get away http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

was having a bad size day lol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people will believe anything. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Tiger belly steel was 25mm thick, so Taylortony how much steel would that .50" have to pass through to get to the vitals of the Tiger after deflecting of the roadway?

Horses jumping 20 feet into the air,??? Sure, what ever. Show horses can't jump that high but ol' Nelly or Ned, the draught horse can.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Just have to love the imagination of those Jug pilots.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tigers being killed, through the belly, by 50 cals has been shown to be totally false in numerous threads.

Reading this link would be worthwhile

http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/articles/airpower.html

Taylortony
02-15-2004, 09:26 AM
Groan...................... I think you want to just watch the Programme, they were killing Tigers with the p47 GUNS ok PERIOD........... The pilot involved was explaining the Technique and the GUN CAMERA film WAS SHOWING IT.... unless they made that up like the Apollo Moon Landings and filmed it out in the Desert and just pasted the Tigers onto it...... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Just wait till it comes back round on Discovery and watch it, it was Awesome.

Believe me the Horses were Horriffic as they were strapped to the Carts but although he was using the height as a descriptive figure they were trying to get away, horse, cart and all.... They say man cant lift great weights, but its not been unheard of for men lifting cars off people in life or death situation..


you can even buy it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif its fasinating http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=43191&AID=4062073&PID=511551

More info about it off the web

The History Channel will air the documentary film "Thunderbolts, Conquest of the Reich." It tells the story of the Thunderbolts in Europe during the last two months of WW II. The footage in this film was shot from March thru May 1945 and was made entirely on 16mm and 35mm color film stock. Four pilots who appear in the original 1945 film were interviewed for this film. The majority of the footage concerns Thunderbolts from the 362nd FG and 365th FG but other groups do appear. The 362nd FG was based at Etain, France and Frankfurt, Germany when this film was made. The color gun camera footage was taken directly from the wing cameras of the men who appear in the film which was identified by the slates that appear in the orignal footage. This footage was not "colorized" but shot on Kodachrome color positive film stock by the USAAF 4th Combat Camera Unit which had three cameramen killed while making this film and developed by Kodak at a special labratory they set up in Chantilly, France in 1945 for this film. For those who think at color footage shot in 1945 looked like what was shown in "Band of Brothers" it will be a surprise. This is the film for people who love the P-47 Thunderbolts and the men who flew them.

[This message was edited by Taylortony on Sun February 15 2004 at 08:40 AM.]

MandMs
02-15-2004, 09:45 AM
The show has aired many times over the last several years.

JG26Red
02-15-2004, 09:57 AM
.50 cals dont kill tigers, or any german tank period.. just wont happen... my GF was in 1st AD in WW2, he came upon a bunch of so called killed panzers, these where p47, 51 pilots saying it blew up etc... so the tankers come along and get a nasty suprise... rockets and bombs can kill tanks, maybe larger caliber cannons, but .50 cals? not, this coming from a GF who served in WW2 and had to take on those .50 kills... 4 times his tank was knocked out by a panzer that was reported to be killed by .50... period

La7_BLitz
02-15-2004, 10:03 AM
remember a tiger I has 100m+ frontal armor , 80mm side/rear, only top and under they have a little less, 25mm i think.

Taylortony
02-15-2004, 03:03 PM
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HH http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif watch the film, hear the chat, i was relating what they said and the gun shots surely looked like it was dead....... there was a hatch underneath and the bottom was not armoured, 25 mm is not that thick...

[This message was edited by Taylortony on Sun February 15 2004 at 03:07 PM.]

BBB_Hyperion
02-15-2004, 06:43 PM
Not again lol.

The latest Video Proof not posted long ago here didnt show any destroyed Tank and the Tanktype shown has been idented as Jagdpanther that is no Tiger. Shooting the Fuel Trailer doesnt destroy or take out the Tank maybe damages it but reduceing its Range or destroy Service and Support vehicles is the Idea behind it. A Tank without Fuel Ammo or Spare parts , Repair Crew is almost useless. A important part in Tank tactics is movement even on defense.

Dig a little in old threads and you will find a some nice dicussion about. I think 6 or 7 long ones.

Here is a classic URL http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18313395/normandy/articles/airpower.html


Regards,
Hyperion

Stalker58
02-16-2004, 04:14 AM
For all I know the Soviet KVTP 14.5 mm machinegun (most powerful MG in the world) can penetrate (with hard core) 20 mm thick armor plate at max. 600 m at high angle impact. So I doubt that M3 12.7 MG was able to get through 25 mm armor plate...

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

MandMs
02-16-2004, 04:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taylortony:
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HH http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif watch the film, hear the chat, i was relating what they said and the gun shots surely looked like it was dead....... there was a hatch underneath and the bottom was not armoured, 25 mm is not that thick...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The hull bottom was plain old mild steel? OK, if you insist. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

25mm = 1 inch. Now what was the angle these .50" bullets richoceted(sp?) at? How thick was that mild steel hull bottom now?

I would like to see a pic of a Tiger towing a fuel trailer.

Hyperio, I posted that link already but it looks like some don't want to read the report.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif