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MB_Avro
01-27-2004, 05:08 PM
When I started flying online I used to fly the Il2 Sturmovik. If I was very lucky I made it back to base after a bombing run.

Sometimes I was fortunate and killed a fighter that overshot my desperate twists and turns and ended up in my sights... often if I got near home an enemy fighter would destroy what was left of my plane.

One day when I had more holes than plane and was approaching the enemy base all alone for about the fifth time, a guy on the opposing side said...'I'll cover you, head for your target'

His side mocked him for his chivalry.

ok....it's just a game.

But that gesture said a lot to me.

Was he wrong to do this??

Regards
MB_Avro

MB_Avro
01-27-2004, 05:08 PM
When I started flying online I used to fly the Il2 Sturmovik. If I was very lucky I made it back to base after a bombing run.

Sometimes I was fortunate and killed a fighter that overshot my desperate twists and turns and ended up in my sights... often if I got near home an enemy fighter would destroy what was left of my plane.

One day when I had more holes than plane and was approaching the enemy base all alone for about the fifth time, a guy on the opposing side said...'I'll cover you, head for your target'

His side mocked him for his chivalry.

ok....it's just a game.

But that gesture said a lot to me.

Was he wrong to do this??

Regards
MB_Avro

Griffon_25th
01-27-2004, 05:11 PM
He was, obviously, drunk. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/151203-newsig777.jpg

Huxley_S
01-27-2004, 05:15 PM
or stoned http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

faustnik
01-27-2004, 05:17 PM
I've let damaged a/c RTB but, would never let one continue on to a target area.

I've never understood the 'stick to a damaged target until he burns' idea. If a damaged enemy is leaving the scene, let him go and concentrate on the ones that are still a threat.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
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Bearcat99
01-27-2004, 06:48 PM
Treason!!! Shoot him!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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LW_lcarp
01-27-2004, 06:52 PM
I dont shoot at Planes that are landing Taking off or spawning with a fighters MGs. Wheres the sport in that. But if ive got a nice bomb slung under me watch out its dropping on your head

"If winning isnt everything why do they keep score"
Vince Lombardi

GoodKn1ght
01-27-2004, 07:03 PM
i think chivalry died after worldwar1.
world war 2 saw a lot of strafing pilots/planes.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Vladimir_No2
01-27-2004, 07:51 PM
Chivalry died after WW1. Before it, a captured or defeated enemy was treated with respect. After it they were merly killed or held in terrible conditions. However, I have heard of some instaces of German pilots escorting damaged enemy aircraft after firing the last of their ammo at them.

http://www.doyle.com.au/images/scharnhorst2.JPG
"Engage the enemy more closely" -Rear Admiral Cradock

WUAF_Badsight
01-27-2004, 09:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MB_Avro:
One day when I had more holes than plane and was approaching the enemy base all alone for about the fifth time, a guy on the opposing side said...'I'll cover you, head for your target
MB_Avro<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THAT SOUNDS LIKE A WUAF MEMBER

.
.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MB_Avro:
His side mocked him for his chivalry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ok it wasnt a WUAF after all

ElfunkoI
01-27-2004, 11:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vladimir_No2:
Chivalry died after WW1. Before it, a captured or defeated enemy was treated with respect. After it they were merly killed or held in terrible conditions. However, I have heard of some instaces of German pilots escorting damaged enemy aircraft after firing the last of their ammo at them.

http://www.doyle.com.au/images/scharnhorst2.JPG
"Engage the enemy more closely" -Rear Admiral Cradock

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've read many accounts of chivalry in WWII. I think a blanket statement about treatment of prisoners doesn't serve a purpose and my personal opinion would be that most airmen in the ETO were treated as POW's should be treated and sometimes even better (you hear about these times a lot, I would show a guest a good time too). Now, airmen in the PTO flew a completely different war and were fighting a completely different culture. Our ideas of chivalry and their ideas of bushido and polar opposites in some respects.

On a personal level, if you run and bail over friendly territory I'll shoot you. If you in any way offend me I will shoot you (thank god my car doesn't have a 30mm cannon, although I did save a stupid bikers life today as I barreled down on him at 95 and he cut infront of me at 65, moron didn't even know I held 6 ft off his fender). If they bail over our territory, I'll let them float down, same for emergency landings. And if they do bug out in a large fight then its time for next target.

Griffon_25th
01-27-2004, 11:06 PM
lol bad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/151203-newsig777.jpg

Eagle_361st
01-28-2004, 12:07 AM
I will often let a damaged Human pilot RTB or bail/ditch. I can think of only one time when I all out wasted a guy and he deserved it. If they are damaged and their capacity to fight is nill, I leave them be and find my next target.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
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Korolov
01-28-2004, 12:13 AM
I'll usually leave a damaged enemy alone unless said enemy is threatening me. One time I was chasing a La-7 and managed to whip him hard with a few cannon rounds; he was going home and put his gear down - I broke off and looked for more bandits. But Lo! I see La-7 tracers fly around me - my little friend had retracted his gear and came back after me. Needless to say, I quickly went verticle and hammerheaded down onto him, at which he ran off again and put his gear down. He touched down and I filled him with all I had - he blew up on the runway.

So, while it is generally smart to let a damaged foe run away in a furball, it is dangerous to ignore him for the rest of the sortie. In a aircraft like the P-47, you strive upon critically wounding your opponents; killing them is just about impossible after the first bounce.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

TheGozr
01-28-2004, 12:28 AM
Yes "Chevalerie" is cool and good sport.

Some one who act with Chevalerie is a pilot real aware and fallowing the fight.

Good go .

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

carguy_
01-28-2004, 12:31 AM
I tried some chivalry but it ended when I was straffed during final landing approach.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
01-28-2004, 12:38 AM
such is life online ...

GoodKn1ght
01-28-2004, 01:19 AM
i used to do chivalry as well. i stoped when my kills were repeatedly stolen after crippling an enemy plane and letting him land.

now i dont stop firing until my target explodes. if i clip a wing off, ill "guard" my victory by escorting him to the ground and staying behind him so friendlies cant get a shot at it.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Capt.LoneRanger
01-28-2004, 02:46 AM
I made the same experience.

I got myself that name from my friends, because I use to be chivilry in all games. But I also made bad experiences in IL2FB. Once a machine I am in dogfight with, smokes or is crippled beyond being able to stand a fight, it's no more interesting for me and I get the score even if he lands AFAIK.
The problem is - If I leave such an opponent, like vultures, planes from my side drop from the skies and shoot him.

I noticed several times, pilots even go after a/c that lost a wing, to score another hit and get the kill - even if you are between the falling plane and you...teammate...


greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

bazzaah2
01-28-2004, 02:57 AM
all that vulching makes me thiink that chivalry isn't alive and well.

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_05.gif

Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

HellToupee
01-28-2004, 03:26 AM
he probly was wrong to do it think of his guys on the ground he sent them to their deaths and let his team down, on scripted servers you let no man or plane get away winning is everything, let chivalry online not go past good game at the end.

My team mates ive had never offered me chivarly, i rember getting into a fight with an enemy was about to finsh him off was in perfect position he was flying straight in level and bang bang bang i cop hits from the 109 behind me obviously no accdent, another time i finshed off a p47 only to be shot down by the team mate nearby, i assumed he was angry because the p47 was dammaged i thought i might have stolen a kill but i hadnt the p47 was the same p47 i passed earlyer with 3 of my team mates dammagin it so it was no single mans kill to be claimed.

If your team mates treat your more brutal than the enemy something is wrong.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

Fennec_P
01-28-2004, 03:47 AM
I'm willing to be sporting if my opponent is at a big disadvantage.

For example, its no great accomplishment to swoop down and ventilate a TB-3 with MK108 cannons. Instead, do a few cold runs for target practice, then when you've been sufficiently holed, come at him with machine guns only.

Thats something everyone can enjoy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

owlwatcher
01-28-2004, 04:01 AM
Believe me it's does exist. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LeadSpitter_
01-28-2004, 04:10 AM
I think it does, the other day in greater green I caught a member of the squad AKA trying to land, normally I will drop them in a heartbeat but i seen he was smoking and leaking fuel and he just survived a big battle so I did a close flyby which he stalled trying to shoot me as i climbed, but i said go ahead and land i wont fire and wove off with a S`

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Cajun76
01-28-2004, 04:17 AM
I would hope it's still alive, although it depends where and who you're flying with/against. In my experience, if the people know you are chivilrous, and your enemy too, then it makes for a much more honorable experience all around.

If people know you're a point *****, then they are less likely to help you, and more likely to 'steal' your kill. As a Jug driver, I don't always have the opportunity to follow some Ki-84 through a split-S to finish what I started. The sharks smell bloood, and move in, generally. But in a server where I'm known, and I know them (enemies and freindlies), my team mates are less likely to finish them off, or I'll have the opportunity to manuever for another run at the bandit I wounded. I often switch between Red and Blue teams, usually to even teams, so I have the opportunity to fly on the wing of the same guy I got shot down by, or vice versa.

An example. The other night I engaged a Ki-84 at medium alt, and I dragged him up to high alt. I started the usual manuevers, and was getting close to a firing solution, when he started a (relatively) slow, shallow dive. This is a suicide tactic against a Jug at high alt, normally.
I kept my alt and followed, and asked "Out of fuel?" He said "Yes, finish me off" I replied "Just don't shoot any of my guys on the way down, happy landings" Neither of us had scored a hit on the other, but he was a good pilot, and fought with honor.

I'd rather be shot down in a good fight with a great pilot than "air vulch" 5 hapless chaps 3000m below me, but that's me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

Capt.LoneRanger
01-28-2004, 05:29 AM
It really does exist. Gotta confirm that, too.

I was badly shot up by an TX-squadie. He destroyed my rudder- and elevator-cables. After his first pass, he flew close by me and asked, what was damaged. I told him and he just said "Good Luck" and watched me landing. I did it and earned a "respect" from him.

So chivilry does exist and that was a lot more fun than my recent game in GG, where 2 squaddies from JS (_HH) laughed at the ones they shot down, and as I mentioned, they should check teambalance and even teams, they just said "no" and began vulching like hell. Not the best advertisement for a good squad.


greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

AlGroover
01-28-2004, 06:31 AM
I think it really only existed in the minds of medieval monks and 19th century romantics. Oooh how cynical.

MB_Avro
01-28-2004, 08:21 AM
Thanks for your replies.

I should clarify that my 'Guardian Angel' offered me an escort on my return from the target and NOT on the way there. He did not attack any of his team mates but assumed the escort role.

Next time...I dropped a can of beer over his base!

Regards
MB_Avro

TheGozr
01-28-2004, 08:40 AM
Think about it next time.. "Gears down" leave it land and pass low to salute..

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

Au_flyer
02-09-2004, 03:48 PM
Chivalry is defined as:

"The medieval system, principles, and customs of knighthood."

"The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women."

Maintained largely in the upper classes of European society, some still acknowledged it in WW1 and fewer in WW2 also, but they all died.

If you are playing on a war server, play the sim like it is your life. Advantage advantage advantage, kill them on the ground, kill them when they are trying to land. Avoid a fair fight, its your life, only push the advantage, disengage and extend from a disadvantage.

Please note: This post is not intended to start a fight, this is how the war was fought.

Your job is not to die fighting for your country.
Your job is to make the other guy die for his.

CARBONFREEZE
02-09-2004, 08:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
It really does exist. Gotta confirm that, too.

I was badly shot up by an TX-squadie. He destroyed my rudder- and elevator-cables. After his first pass, he flew close by me and asked, what was damaged. I told him and he just said "Good Luck" and watched me landing. I did it and earned a "respect" from him.

So chivilry does exist and that was a lot more fun than my recent game in GG, where 2 squaddies from JS (_HH) laughed at the ones they shot down, and as I mentioned, they should check teambalance and even teams, they just said "no" and began vulching like hell. Not the best advertisement for a good squad.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The TX guys are great. Their members/former members are all nice individuals that show respect for other players. Most WUAF members are like this as well.

Russian aircraft require skill to fly.
German aircraft require ten times that skill, and one hundred times the patience!

WUAF_CO_CRBNFRZ on HyperLobby

p1ngu666
02-09-2004, 08:20 PM
i cant bring myself to shoot a human tb3. i will however do loops around them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
i feel that if u turn trails on, gear down u are out of the fight. some will do that and then come back.
apart from scripted server, theres no reason tobe a barsteward.

http://www.pingu666.etglobalsolution.co.uk/sig/mysig3.jpg

DONB3397
02-09-2004, 08:40 PM
I guess I don't have an opinion about the "right thing to do" in FB. It's a game, no one gets hurt, and points count. On the other hand, if you think someone has fought well and deserves to get down, why not?

On the Eastern front, such questions would be considered nonsense. I'm rereading "The War Diary of Helmut Lipfert" and noted that he and his wingman, on a frie jagd near Kerch spotted two meandering Russian trainers heading back to base. Lipfert took one out on his final, killing the crew, then smoked the second just as he touched down. The crew jumped before the plane stopped bumping along the ground and headed for a nearby haystack. Lipfert's wingman blew the last plane up, then made a couple of low passes over the hiding crew. Finally, they waggled their wings and headed home.

Was that chivalrous? Both Russians were vulnerable. One crew was killed. It would have been an easy matter to machine gun the second crew, but for some reason Lipfert let them live. He hardly gives it a second thought. They landed, posted their kills, and had a bottle of champagne.

Ultimately, Lipfert racked up 203 kills. I don't think he dicriminated between them.

BTW, allied pilots were given credit for kills wherever/whenever they occured. Nowotny, the great LW experte and Me262 gruppe CO, was killed while landing his crippled 262 by a marauding P-51. Allied pilots used to hang around jet bases in hopes of catching 262 coming in, low on fuel, with everything hanging down.

I think chivalry was pretty much dead by the end of WWII.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BC.5qJABSgXKLZQo

Vladimir_No2
02-09-2004, 08:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AlGroover:
I think it really only existed in the minds of medieval monks and 19th century romantics. Oooh how cynical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
apparently, you have not read about the Russo-Japanese war.

http://www.doyle.com.au/images/scharnhorst2.JPG
"Engage the enemy more closely" -Rear Admiral Cradock

WUAF_Badsight
02-09-2004, 08:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DONB3397:
Nowotny, the great LW experte and Me262 gruppe CO, was killed while landing his crippled 262 by a marauding P-51. Allied pilots used to hang around jet bases in hopes of catching 262 coming in, low on fuel, with everything hanging down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Nowotny was in a low level Dogfight with some Mustangs when he fell out of the sky & lawn-darted ...... so i read

no reason was given

in WW2 those 262's had to be killed then as they were uncatchable once up to speed

shooting at them in that position was sensible

DONB3397
02-09-2004, 09:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DONB3397:
Nowotny, the great LW experte and Me262 gruppe CO, was killed while landing his crippled 262 by a marauding P-51. Allied pilots used to hang around jet bases in hopes of catching 262 coming in, low on fuel, with everything hanging down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Nowotny was in a low level Dogfight with some Mustangs when he fell out of the sky & lawn-darted ...... so i read

no reason was given

in WW2 those 262's had to be killed then as they were uncatchable once up to speed

shooting at them in that position was sensible<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Different sources may not give the same version. Mine says Nowotny was returning with one engine out and was bounced by R. W. Stevens of the 364th FG. Stevens made only one pass, but Nowotny reported he was on fire. Galland was on the base and watched him hit the ground and break up in a ball of fire.

And you're right; it was the only ratonale way for allied fighters to deal with the 262...and live to tell about it.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BC.5qJABSgXKLZQo

Capt.LoneRanger
02-10-2004, 03:14 AM
IMHO we have to differentiate between real life and online-playing.

I doubt there were many people out there, able to live chivalry in late war times. After dozens of your friends being killed, krippled and burned, emotions take over, I guess. On all sides.
But we're playing a game here. Okay, a wargame, but nobody looses more than personal pride, if he's shot down. So, why don't people take it easy and don't spoil the fun of everybody else.

Just take a look at the a/c everybody seems to use: La7 (3x20mm), D9, K4, Ki's & Zeros. What the heck? Do they all have to rely on the strongest a/c in order to win a dogfight? Is it really all about getting even the last bit of advantage over an opponent? I don't get it.

...and I really hate those uber(plane)-noobs. Had a few of them on several servers just yesterday. Flying low in my P40, I watched 8 of them in 30min, smashing into the ground, trying to BnZ at me...


greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

Dmitri9mm
02-10-2004, 03:28 AM
Chivalry is not about neglecting your duty! If you fly an interceptor, you shoot down incomming planes! Chivalry is about not shooting down parachutes. And of course if an énemy has dropped his bombs, turn away and concentrate on those still opposing a threat.
S!

Capt.LoneRanger
02-10-2004, 04:22 AM
Exactly Dmitri9mm.

If an opponent retreats and will probably not even make it back home or is unable to get out of a spin, I won't fire at him, just to get the score.


greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

Zayets
02-10-2004, 05:20 AM
Does chivalry exist?
Do the folllowing:
1)Log on to Hyperlobby
2)Pick one of these planes:IL2,He111,Stuka,TB3
3)Head for target and try to fulfill the goal

Then tell me if the chivalry exist,or better yet! if you afford to be a true gentleman.

See you under my straffing fire!

Zayets out
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-iar80pic.jpg

Bull-Dog.
02-10-2004, 06:12 AM
chivalry
never seen any.
A few words of praise after a good fight is the closest I`ve seen.
If someone sees you as an easy kill they keep coming back at you. Happened to me yesterday until I finally got him. Dont think he liked it to much because he then left the game.

"Still trying, still dying" http://mysite.freeserve.com/bull_dog/images/1-picture1.jpg?0.9261296277898643

PBNA-Boosher
02-10-2004, 06:29 AM
As a whole, I think chivalry exists in the players of this game. I was online a few weeks ago and shot up an He-111 pretty bad with my guns. He had holes all over the place, a dead top gunner and dead waist gunner, and his ventral gunner was heavily wounded. The only people that were able to do their jobs were the nose gunner and the pilot. I still had plenty of ammo left in my P-40, so I knew that I could kill him. However, he was no threat whatsoever to me. I therefore followed him back to base and kept my side off of him by taking potshots at them if they went for him. When I finally got to his base, I had to peel off because of Flak and AAA, but I recieved a very nice big salute from the pilot.
Only three days ago I was flying online in an He-111, (I'm good with bombers) and at 5000 meters, I dropped my bombs, and started to head home, when I was raked by several large caliber MG's from three different MiG-3's with 12.7mm gunpods. I lost every single one of my AI gunners, and the only person left alive was me in the pilot's seat. When the MiG pilots lined up right behind my engines for the killer blow, and realized I wasn't able to fight back, they positioned themselves so that they could escort me home. My crippled bomber made it the 30 miles back with their help. Once at the front lines, the MiG's encountered German fighters, and peeled off to attack, but after the German's seeing what the MiG's were doing, they peeled off to complete their patrol.
Another time, at least a month ago, I was flying on some random server and I saw this pilot struggling with his P-47D-27 in a fight with a Fw-190A-5. Both planes were damaged, but the P-47 had gaping holes in its right wing, and the 190 only had some pockmarks in its engine. Of course, being the friend I am, I went over to help, but I was too late to get in there quick enough, and the 190 delivered a crippling blow with a 2 second burst from every one of its guns. Every bullet hit the P-47, ripped off its wings, tail, and elevators. The pilot bailed from the falling fuselage and since he was at 2000 meters, it took him awhile to fall. Just then some newbies flying Bf-109's tried to shoot down the parachute. I went into a combat dive and tore off the wing of the 109 with my P-40's powerful six .50's, and I then pulled away and climbed back to 4000 meters. The newbies tore after me, and I managed to shoot down a second 109 by killing its pilot. The third noob got tired of chasing me and went back to the parachute, we were too far away and my energy was low so I couldn't catch him in his climb. Just before The newbie opened fire, the 190 pilot raked him with all of his guns, and the 109 brutally exploded. Now, you may call it team killing, but I call it chivalry. the noobie was trying to shoot down the parachute, so a more courageous, more chivalrous pilot stopped him almost too effectively. I must say the noob didn't shoot any more parachutes after I was on the server, however, he spent the rest of the time flying an La-7 3B20 and raking everything he could on the ground rather than getting in an air battle. I waggled my wings at the 190 pilot and flew off. I hope you can take from these stories the meaning of chivalry to some pilots. I also hope that next time you see a lone, crippled bomber, rather than destroying it for fun, help it home. Remember, there's no real war here. Let's help everyone enjoy the game, instead of being selfish b@stards and shooting parachutes for points. I checked it offline last night, parachute kills do give you points, isn't that outrageous?!

[This message was edited by PBNA-Boosher on Tue February 10 2004 at 05:45 AM.]

SeaFireLIV
02-10-2004, 06:38 AM
Ok, I`m all for basic Honour of course. Not shooting a crippled unarmed foe is fine...

But protecting a foe from others on your own side? Putting yourself in the way of danger for the enemy? There may be rare cases for that in reality, but not much....

No. This is just being plain silly. It`s not chivalry... in my opinion.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/LAlowblue.jpg

PBNA-Boosher
02-10-2004, 06:50 AM
Whatever you say, but remember, the man your killing's mother/wife/daughter/other wants to see him again as much if not more than your mother/wife/daughter/other wants to see you again. If you had the choice between living while being escorted back to base by the enemy rather than dying while being raked helplessly to death by a pilot who only cares selfishly about his kill number, what would you choose.

Slush69
02-10-2004, 07:05 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Eh, yes. It's terrible that bit 00101101 won't come home to 10110010. Sure. Whatever. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But what makes me more confused is your first and last story. Why would you for instance shoot at your own team instead of just entering the chat and tell them to sod of? Seems, uhm, inexplicable to me.

Your last story has me even more bewildered. So the scenarios is 3 beginners (all conveniently in Bf-109's) against a Fw-190 at 2,000 meters. The Fw-190 is shot down, and the 109's fire at the parachute at 1,000-1,500 meters altitude. You bag two of the newbies and climb back to 4,000 meters. Then the last 109 goes for the parachute (which is probably at 1,000 meters now). But you can't catch him from your 3 K higher altitude because you can't follow him in his climb? What climb would that be? And how come the 190 pilot downs the 109 when that pilot is hanging from a parachute? What am I missing here?

Anyway: my two Kavorka's worth. This is simulated war. Every possible target should be destroyed. End of story.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

F19_Olli72
02-10-2004, 07:17 AM
Yes but would you kill a team member for the sake of saving an enemy? Not me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

But i do agree that shoting on parachutes is beeing a poor sport. Points its whats its all about apparently. Heres a little story from me:

Just the other day on Greatergreen i got a successful single pass bounce on a I-16. He immediatly started to burn, and as i saw him in flames i broke off wishing him luck for the bailout feeling quite pleased with myself. Then i saw three 109s swooping down on that burning I-16 spraying it constantly desperatly going for an easy "kill". I dont know what happened to the poor Rata, i doubt he managed to bail out anyway. Ill watch the track later...should be entertaining to see those 109s in action.

I guess the conclusion is that pointwhoring is what makes it hard to show some chivalry. Even if you leave a damaged, smoking enemy, expect someone on your team blasting away on it,,,even if it already is turned to swiss cheese. Be sure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
02-10-2004, 07:19 AM
If it was a bomber threatening your family or a bomber heading home after he leveled your hometown, that's one thing.

Going after an He111 in FB, that is allready crippled is something completely different.
Are you all playing FB for fun or for the score? With all these kill-stealers shooting at allready falling a/c, vulching and strafing, ramming and all, I give a lot more about how a player flies and behaves online, rather than his pure score.
That's when I'd like to see a scoresystem like in AmericasArmy, where you get points for staying close to the leader, assisting, covering and other teamwork...

A very bad example I met just yesterday. He shot tumbling a/c, fired at my target, willingly risking to hit me, etc, calling himself a top-ace. When he was shot down, I asked him, if there may be a better ace and he just answered,... well, just won't say that here. Never seen this before. Bad advertisement for the VM_Squad - won't name the pilot, here, though.


greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.cptloneranger.privat.t-online.de/SIG2.jpg

F19_Ob
02-10-2004, 07:43 AM
Chivalry is a very random event in wars and other times too.

Very few individuals are able to do it at all and the act is normally credited to more elevated individuals.

Even animals are belived to be able to perform this.


----------------------------------------------------

******Animalsories from ob's vast archive******


A researcher ( some kind of scientist ) had a sick and very unhappy pigeon in a cage outside his house.
It kept producing sad calls untill a wood****** arrived and started to entertain and play with it , bringing sticks and leeves and even some food (mainly Tenebrionidae ). So the wood****** visited every day until the pigeon was healed and well.
The wood****** lived in a tree nearby but did not visit again after that.


---------------



Another famous story is the one about a injured gaselle(small ***** creature )(horned) wich was unsuccesfully attacked by a crocodile( scaly animal more related to birds than lisards )
,bcause a hippo saw it in distress and hurried to aid. It wasnt able to save its life (already dying), but stopped any further attacks and waited until it had past away before it was left to the crocodile.



ob's stories ends..................................

Slush69
02-10-2004, 07:52 AM
Thank you. I needed that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

IMHO the scaly animal more related to birds than lisards probably had sinister plans with the small ***** creature.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

nicolas10
02-10-2004, 07:55 AM
Once I did something very bad. I actually shot a plane that had crashlanded due to a teammate because I wanted to kill the pilot. It was a scripted server and I didn't want the pilot to get away. But I didn't realise I was doing this over friendly territory so the pilot was a prisoner anyway. Good thing is I aimed so poorily I didn't manage to blow the thing up.

Sorry nero http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

That said I try to never steal a kill, and I always join in a dog when the teammate is being chased, but not when he has the advantage. I can't cound the times I had one of my kills stolen and it pisses me off.

As for the opposing side, feck chivalry they're here to get shot down anyway http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Nic

The first official D12 whiner!

Huxley_S
02-10-2004, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As a whole, I think chivalry exists in the players of this game. I was online a few weeks ago and shot up an He-111 pretty bad with my guns. He had holes all over the place, a dead top gunner and dead waist gunner, and his ventral gunner was heavily wounded. The only people that were able to do their jobs were the nose gunner and the pilot. I still had plenty of ammo left in my P-40, so I knew that I could kill him. However, he was no threat whatsoever to me. I therefore followed him back to base and kept my side off of him by taking potshots at them if they went for him. When I finally got to his base, I had to peel off because of Flak and AAA, but I recieved a very nice big salute from the pilot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is quite simply bonkers m8. Like if you were a real WWII pilot you would do this?

The art of chivalry is to prefer to let downed pilots survive provided they ditch or bail over your territory and can be captured by your forces. No point needlessly killing someone who can be captured and detained. However, returning pilots back to the enemy so that they can come back later and kill you and your friends is barmy and er probably treason.

Huxley_S
02-10-2004, 08:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That said I try to never steal a kill, and I always join in a dog when the teammate is being chased, but not when he has the advantage. I can't cound the times I had one of my kills stolen and it pisses me off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand this attitude... the enemy is the enemy as far as I'm concerned and is fair game. If you're trying to down a plane and I come along and down him for you or vice versa then we as a team have acheived our objective. It isn't anything to get upset about - if you want to play one on one then start a locked server of your own.

Xnomad
02-10-2004, 08:13 AM
Screw all this acting with chilvary! Before you can even talk about that what about being chilvarous in your own team? Yes that's a message to all you kill stealing Ba***rds out there. How about you don't shoot the plane that I ripped a wing off just before it hits the ground!?

Or taking off from the taxi way so you can be the first in the air, or shooting over my shoulder at my target!

Ok I might be a points ***** but I don't try to spoil my team mates fun by trying to get points through disrespectful play. I'm getting really close to going on a TKing spree one of these days!

There just aren't very many gentlemen flying these days, I've even been shocked by some quite recognisable names when they have pinched one of my kills. Hmmmmmmm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

nicolas10
02-10-2004, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huxley_S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That said I try to never steal a kill, and I always join in a dog when the teammate is being chased, but not when he has the advantage. I can't cound the times I had one of my kills stolen and it pisses me off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand this attitude... the enemy is the enemy as far as I'm concerned and is fair game. If you're trying to down a plane and I come along and down him for you or vice versa then we as a team have acheived our objective. It isn't anything to get upset about - if you want to play one on one then start a locked server of your own.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you like it when you shoot a plane down by destroying his engine with heavy smoke and as you watch him go down down dude comes in an shoots at him just to get a vitory? Or if you break a plane's wing and some ******* goes after the spiralling plane to try pop a few shots in it to get credited with the kill? Or I spend a few minutes fighting against a plane, and after a few boom and zoom passes you crippled down the plane which barely flies only to see a dude come in and give him the last shot and take credit of the fight?

Heck I find it extremely irritating, especially in a game.

Nic

The first official D12 whiner!

Zen--
02-10-2004, 08:17 AM
Kinda irks me in particular to be making multiple passes against a bomber, have 1 or more engines on it flaming, streaming smoke and fuel like mad and then have a bunch of planes swoop in for the kill. It's a pain to have spent time and risk working the bomber down only to have kill vultures come in for the score.

Shouldn't it be kind of obvious that in that situation the bomber is doomed....and jsut as obvious who doomed it? It's not like it's off by itself, typically I am still making passes on it when they show up.

Is it so hard to wave off and let the man finish the job?



Sheeesh, thats a buzz kill like nothing else.

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

nicolas10
02-10-2004, 08:17 AM
And when I come in a 1vs1 one, if the friend is being shot at I try to come after the bad guy and try to down him. If the friend is shooting at the bad guy, I just circle over the fight seeing if all goes well, and I usually jump in if the opponent gets the advantage.

Nic

The first official D12 whiner!

Zen--
02-10-2004, 08:20 AM
I agree with that Nic, I spend a fair amount of time orbiting over a 1 on 1 protecting my teammate if he's got advantage over the bandit. I don't get the kill, but then I do get the satisfaction of helping him stay clear to take out his target.

I know I appreciate looking up to see a fellow pilot watching my back when I am chasing down a bandit...thats a great feeling to witness silent cooperation because both guys know their business and know what to do.

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

Huxley_S
02-10-2004, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Or taking off from the taxi way so you can be the first in the air, or shooting over my shoulder at my target!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some guy shot me down the other night doing exactly this. No biggie... these things happen. Chill.

I think it is fun to have 2 or more planes going for the same target. It sorts the men from the boys - I've seen pilots start with 3 planes angrily on their six and end up downing the lot (including me). Fantastic!

Huxley_S
02-10-2004, 08:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So you like it when you shoot a plane down by destroying his engine with heavy smoke and as you watch him go down down dude comes in an shoots at him just to get a vitory?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't bother me in the slightest... there are plenty of kills to go round. The scoring system online is rubbish anyway - you can have your score wiped out by accidental team kills due to planes spawning on top of you on the runway.

You know when you've downed a plane. If someone wants to chase after critically damaged planes just for the points well they are only fooling themselves... if they want to do it for the enjoyment or the practice then let them. It really isn't a big deal.

When someone says "stop stealing kills" or whatever they'll get no sympathy from me.

Xnomad
02-10-2004, 08:50 AM
I've really had some good fights where I had to work hard and when my stricken target is heading for the ground someone takes a shot. I had hit my victim over and over again with some fantastic deflection shots. Then the victim salutes in the chat and says nice flying and the kill stealer salutes back and says thanks. I didn't say anything as I didn't want to come across as a whiner but that really was sick!

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

Willie__Wombat
02-10-2004, 09:16 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
As a whole, I think ...

I checked it offline last night, parachute kills do give you points, isn't that outrageous?!
QUOTE]

whoa! Chutes are worth points? Cool!

WtW

J30Vader
02-10-2004, 09:22 AM
As long as the enemy goes down, it should not matter who did it.

Huxley_S
02-10-2004, 09:24 AM
Check to see if parachute kills over both friendly and enemy territory give you the same points.

If the game is truly chivalrous then clearly points should be deducted for parachute kills over friendly territory. As should escorting home enemy bombers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

AirBot
02-10-2004, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huxley_S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As a whole, I think chivalry exists in the players of this game. I was online a few weeks ago and shot up an He-111 pretty bad with my guns. He had holes all over the place, a dead top gunner and dead waist gunner, and his ventral gunner was heavily wounded. The only people that were able to do their jobs were the nose gunner and the pilot. I still had plenty of ammo left in my P-40, so I knew that I could kill him. However, he was no threat whatsoever to me. I therefore followed him back to base and kept my side off of him by taking potshots at them if they went for him. When I finally got to his base, I had to peel off because of Flak and AAA, but I recieved a very nice big salute from the pilot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is quite simply bonkers m8. Like if you were a real WWII pilot you would do this?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember a story about a Luftwaffe pilot escorting an injured B17 back to coast because he noticed much of the crew was wounded and they weren't fighting back. I'm sure someone will be kind enough to link the story...

SeaFireLIV
02-10-2004, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AirBot:

I remember a story about a Luftwaffe pilot escorting an injured B17 back to coast because he noticed much of the crew was wounded and they weren't fighting back. I'm sure someone will be kind enough to link the story...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know this story of the German Pilot flying back with a battered B17 until it was out of enemy territory. Nice it is too.

But would he have fought off his own fellow pilots had they returned, firing potshots at them to keep them away? NOWAY! At best he would have stood back and watch as they tore the wing off the B17!

That`s how it would be in reality.

Life just doesn`t work like that! I wish it did.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/LAlowblue.jpg

Blutarski2004
02-10-2004, 12:37 PM
There was also the story of the German fighter ace over Germany who refused to finish off already damaged and helpless victims. American pilots supposedly actually had a nickname for him - something like "Lucky 8" (the number being the German pilot's fuselage staffel number.

All in all, it seems to me that chivalry is valued and recognized because it was comparatively rare on the battlefield.

BLUTARSKI

Zen--
02-10-2004, 01:00 PM
In real life we do things like defy the common practices in war, each for our own reasons of morality etc. People during war have to live with the consequences of their actions and so often display all manner of unpredictable or nonsensical behavior like escorting enemy planes home etc.


In a flight sim where the conditions are totally different and morality has little relevance, I'd say it makes no sense to escort enemy bombers home, let damaged planes land etc etc. I just can't take the game serious enough to let very serious moral issues from real life into it...my level of simulation stops far short of carrying over WW2 tales of chivarly into my flight time.

I've served in the Army and had an interesting life here and there as well, I've seen enough to not bring that into this sim...as I said it just doesn't make sense in a dogfight server.


I don't make it a point to finish off every single thing that comes into my sights with ruthless precisions, nor do I get moods of chivalrous feelings and let people go out of some higher reasoning that it's the right thing to do. I shoot planes down, I get shot down, I shoot the healthy agressive planes, I shoot the weak defensive planes too...if it makes sense at the moment to attack the target in question I will, if it doesn't I won't.

Tagging bailed pilots in their chutes is an issue where frankly I don't understand the emotional charge that some people have against it. Many servers run scripted missions where it actually benefits your team to 'kill' the pilot...if you can get him in his chute, why wouldn't you do that? This is not real life, I don't think you are showing the world you are a monster by commiting that act in a dogfight server.

As for me, I don't worry about shooting chutes unless I am about to run into one coming out of a turn or something, they can shear your wing off in no time flat.


All in all, I don't honestly even know why there is a debate about chivalry in this sim...it just doesn't seem relevant to me and 'atrocious' acts here are nothing in comparison to what happens in real life, so whats the stress about?

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

nicolas10
02-10-2004, 01:06 PM
Excuse me but isn't your job as a fighter to shoot down the ennemy planes? Did this ******* who escorted the B17 realise that those guys maybe dropped tons of bombs on civilians. If I was that guy's officer I'd have him court martialled for not doing his duty, and wasting very valuable fuel for it too.

Nic

The first official D12 whiner!

cmndrbob
02-10-2004, 02:40 PM
I think those who appreciate the idea of respecting an enemy pilot are those who feel a deep sense of immersion while playing. In protracted war combatants feel disconnected from basic human goodness and sometimes that leads to acts of chivalry. However,war is a mess and chivalry will get you killed quickly. If you have straffed a car column, bombed a train station, or shot down bombers you should expect no mercy. If you can show chivalry without compremizing your side's position, well that just lucky. I would not let a plane or pilot return to the enemy if I could help it. Nothing personal it's just the way it is, and I would expect nothing less from an enemy. Chivalry is a gift to yourself and it can be expensive!

"Have fun stormin'the castle"