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Sickboy7979
07-02-2016, 10:05 PM
I must say I was very satisfied! I really liked this game a lot. It reminded me a lot of AC1 in some ways. I know this game got a bad rap but, I thought it was awesome (playing fully patched). Paris is beautiful. Combat was great. Missions were interesting. My only negative thing is that there is almost too much to do. Too many collectables, etc....But, I loved the game. Installing Syndicate in he Xbox One right now. Looking forward to that. I do have the Dead Kings DLC but, I think I'm going to come back to that.

doogsy91
07-03-2016, 12:14 AM
Narrative aside, it's a brilliant game once fully patched. Technically, it's the best AC. The city, the combat and the parkour are as close to perfect as we're ever going to get and the sandbox structures of the co-op missions, the heists and some of the campaign missions are fantastic. My only real beef is with the enemy's guns, which are frustratingly OP.

I have a feeling that with time, Unity is going to develop a serious cult following amongst fans and be considered the most harshly judged and underrated AC.

MikeFNY
07-03-2016, 07:45 AM
I'm with doogsy91 on this one.

I'm afraid moving from Unity to Syndicate straight away is not that much of a good idea Sickboy, you are going from a very tough game to what I call AC for babies.

You will probably find the next one incredibly easy.

Sesheenku
07-03-2016, 11:00 AM
Unity was amazing after it got patched.

Syndicate is a lot more repetitive and just feels less varied overall which is very important with AC.

Fatal-Feit
07-03-2016, 08:26 PM
I have a feeling that with time, Unity is going to develop a serious cult following amongst fans and be considered the most harshly judged and underrated AC.

I know some clubs that are still actively playing Unity on TeamSpeak. - Literally mastered all the layouts and strategies for the CO-OP missions... Some fans have expressed how they refuse to touch Syndicate for all its regressions. I really hope they go back and add some depth to the stealth mechanics with the next one. Picking up bodies and whistling isn't the kind of depth I want to see; I want things like high-profile cover kills and various window/ledge positioning take-downs again. Elements that benefit skills.

Personally, even after a thousand hours, I'm still playing Unity with people today like its an MMO because 1. you just can't get the same CO-OP experience in the other installments (or most other 3rd person action adventure games for that matter) and 2. it's the only AC game that you can really master through practice. The parkour is incredibly deep, with people still discovering new animations, and the stealth is actually great once you learn the rules and discover some tricks. I did a livestream some time ago proving that stealth isn't broken (soloed Les Enrages, The Tournament, and Moving Mirabeau without detection for some examples); you just need to learn the mechanics and understand the detection system.

And of course, I wouldn't say the game have been completely patched. I'd say about 90% polished... I still run into glitches here and there, but they might be more noticeable for me because I play this game a lot. People on the sub seem to be immune to glitches. lol

BananaBlighter
07-03-2016, 08:45 PM
I liked Unity a lot too, and really appreciate that it was somewhat difficult.

It was quite disheartening to see how Syndicate had done away with all the things I loved about Unity (stealth, customization, parkour to an extent). I think Unity nailed the three core pillars and so in terms of gameplay I don't find Syndicate as satisfying.

However in terms of open world, with the city and its side activities, I think Syndicate did a better job.

BTW, just curious to know what you thought of Unity compared to the first few games, especially the Ezio trilogy.

Sesheenku
07-04-2016, 09:52 AM
The combat is REALLY terrible in Syndicate -.- it's back to ac3/ac4 button mash fest.

The story was insultingly simplistic with an awful cliche ending that contrasts the rest of the series starkly.

The side content was back to being 3 or 4 tasks that you repeat endlessly with ever so slight variations.

I used to hate 4 the most but now Syndicate is the one I find the most vile.

doogsy91
07-04-2016, 11:13 AM
Syndicate is the first main AC game that I've skipped and I've been playing AC literally since day one. It just looks absolutely awful.

I loved 1 and 2 for how unique they were and I genuinely believe that Patrice injected those games with a certain soul that every one since has failed to regain, perhaps because of his background in film. I didn't care for Brotherhood and especially not for Revelations, but it had a tumultuous and rushed development.

I didn't really have big problems with Unity in terms of bugs before it was fully patched but since it was patched it runs really quite well for me. Interestingly, I didn't like Unity after I'd finished it the first time, but it grew and grew on me as I learned to master its systems and when soloed, the co-op missions are generally much more satisfying than the solo campaign. All of the hidden features and the fact that there actually is a decent learning curve are two of Unity's most charming features.

It amazes me how many critics who talk about Syndicate still say they hated Unity and that Syndicate is a general improvement. Perhaps it's just because it's the kind of game you need to spend some time with.

Sesheenku
07-04-2016, 11:51 AM
Dunno man, I guess it proves all those people crying for more difficulty and complexity are just whining for nothing because when it was finally given to them, they hated it.

I'll be surprised if they top Unity anytime soon. Esp if they continue in the Syndicate direction.

One guy I know who loves Syndicate to death got in a debate with me about the combat and said the combat was not just press x to kill cause you occasionally press the break defense button XDDD

Yes you press the break defense button to spam the next button and repeat until bad things fall down.

Much improvement rite?

Sooooo much better than the thoughtful Unity combat system with its offense/defense cycles and its dependency on finding openings to exploit /sarcasm end

Then he praised the awful forced romance of Evie/Green who had like 5 minutes of scenes in the main story total.

Smh....

How 'bout that cliche fairy tale ending with the bloody queen of all figures praising our heroes like a Scooby Doo guest star?

Ugh. Syndicate disgusts me on all levels.

doogsy91
07-04-2016, 12:02 PM
Sounds like I'm really not missing out then....

Sesheenku
07-04-2016, 01:12 PM
Sounds like I'm really not missing out then....

I don't think so. I mean hell there are people that love 4 and Syndicate so idk... but I hate 'em both.

4 for being a dumbed down 3 with all the flaws with a pirate game pasted over it to distract players from that and Syndicate for the previously stated reasons.

doogsy91
07-04-2016, 02:32 PM
I don't think so. I mean hell there are people that love 4 and Syndicate so idk... but I hate 'em both.

4 for being a dumbed down 3 with all the flaws with a pirate game pasted over it to distract players from that and Syndicate for the previously stated reasons.

Hmm, I liked 4 for what it was. I thought the adventure aspect was done really quite well and Edward remains the most believable and best written and performed protagonist to date imo. The campaign missions were pretty terrible though and sadly, Havana was the only decent city. MD sucked pretty hard too.

MikeFNY
07-04-2016, 02:34 PM
Dunno man, I guess it proves all those people crying for more difficulty and complexity are just whining for nothing because when it was finally given to them, they hated it.

I'll be surprised if they top Unity anytime soon. Esp if they continue in the Syndicate direction.

In a way, and I say it with a lot of shame, you described myself there.

I was very frustrated with Unity when I played it the first time and I damn myself for not having the patience I eventually had when I played the game with my self-imposed rules.

I do hope, however, that you're wrong on suggesting that the next AC game(s) will be as easy as Syndicate. Or better, I do hope they will be as difficult as Unity.

Clearly I agree with you on the immature story of Syndicate, the twin boy/twin girl story who go in separate directions, she keeps a diary and falls in love with the mature member of the group, etc. etc.

We're growing up Ubisoft, have the game grow up with us please.

Sesheenku
07-04-2016, 03:49 PM
In a way, and I say it with a lot of shame, you described myself there. I was very frustrated with Unity when I played it the first time and I damn myself for not having the patience I eventually had when I played the game with my self-imposed rules. I do hope, however, that you're wrong on suggesting that the next AC game(s) will be as easy as Syndicate. Or better, I do hope they will be as difficult as Unity. Clearly I agree with you on the immature story of Syndicate, the twin boy/twin girl story who go in separate directions, she keeps a diary and falls in love with the mature member of the group, etc. etc. We're growing up Ubisoft, have the game grow up with us please.

Takes balls to say that man. I'm not so crazy that I like something impossible but I really enjoy something that makes me need to rethink my approach and Unities combat certainly did that. After all my complaining of their artificial difficulty they finally did it right.

I almost didn't give Unity a chance after the buggy release too but a few months and a steam sale later and it was excellent.

Not only is the romance cliche but it has NO chemistry whatsoever. There's like two or three scenes where they maybe smirk at each other and then they just end up together...

-Sigh- Awful. Disney princess level awful. You know, I don't think any AC has ever had an AMAZING story or characters but at least they weren't afraid to end on a bitter note. You can absolutely have a happy/sappy ending if you do it right but it sure as hell wasn't done right here.

They're really bad at writing characters. I have never cared or connected with a single assassin. That said Syndicate just takes it from meh to jesus christ burn it with the purging fires of hell.
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It's funny, maybe it's just my personal taste but I cared the most for Connor due to the persona game esque approach in the homestead missions.

It's so simple, you live with them, you solve some problems, you learn more about them and you don't just see them fighting or angry, you see them laughing too.

Assassins Creed desperately needs to show the human side of their characters. Yes things are serious business but humans are not strictly business. I say next game, let us have very well developed side activities where we connect with other assassins.

Not just learning about their problems or getting into fights but literally just going out with them and doing normal things, learning about their lives, their likes, dislikes, their motivations and even just showing scenes where you the character is enjoying their company.

This is what makes us care about people and it's something television and triple a developers are amusingly lacking. Y'know? Like maybe since it's rumored to be in Egypt one day you just join your fellow assassin and help him do something as simple as wash his laundry and it's not necessarily interactive and you have a conversation with that assassin about something funny that happened to him/her. Just round them out.

Assassin or not we NEED to see the normal basic human side of characters to care about them. Developers need to just stop making games where they just throw a character into dramatic situations and expect us to care.

Drama for dramas sake is useless, the weight comes from knowing a character inside and out and coming to actually care about their goals, problems, and lives as a whole.

Imagine how much more impact Elise's death would have had if you could have met up with her just to have a basic drink, just a scene where she takes off the templar persona and Arno takes off his assassin persona and they just speak like normal human beings about regular life. And not just once, a lot of the time, they have a relationship for christs sake. Let me know Elise as well as Arno does so I can care and connect with the characters.

SixKeys
07-04-2016, 07:39 PM
Assassins Creed desperately needs to show the human side of their characters. Yes things are serious business but humans are not strictly business. I say next game, let us have very well developed side activities where we connect with other assassins.

Not just learning about their problems or getting into fights but literally just going out with them and doing normal things, learning about their lives, their likes, dislikes, their motivations and even just showing scenes where you the character is enjoying their company.

To be fair, we did that with Ezio, but you said you didn't connect with him either. We saw him start out as a punk whose favorite pastime was chasing girls and starting fights. We hung out with our older brother and helped our sick younger brother complete a secret project that we never even found out what it was. The entire first sequence we spent with Ezio showed him as a typical spoiled and bored rich kid (who saw himself as a sex god but was embarrassed to hear his mom refer to genitals), wasting his life doing mundane things. The beginning of Brotherhood is similar in that Ezio is happy to be back at Monteriggioni just helping out the townspeople with everyday problems, and in Revelations there are several missions that are all about him trying to impress Sofia. AC3's Homestead missions are all about showing the softer side of Connor, doing simple things to help out his friends, building himself a new family to replace the one he lost.

I'm just not sure what you think they should be doing that they haven't already done in several games.

MikeFNY
07-04-2016, 08:15 PM
Takes balls to say that man. I'm not so crazy that I like something impossible but I really enjoy something that makes me need to rethink my approach and Unities combat certainly did that. After all my complaining of their artificial difficulty they finally did it right.

I almost didn't give Unity a chance after the buggy release too but a few months and a steam sale later and it was excellent.

Yes, in all fairness I made the same mistake with AC:Revelations, back then I told myself to be more patient but then came Unity and all my patience was gone.

Ironically enough, these two games are now two of my favourites in the series.



Assassins Creed desperately needs to show the human side of their characters. Yes things are serious business but humans are not strictly business. I say next game, let us have very well developed side activities where we connect with other assassins.

Not just learning about their problems or getting into fights but literally just going out with them and doing normal things, learning about their lives, their likes, dislikes, their motivations and even just showing scenes where you the character is enjoying their company.

I did suggest something on post #219 of this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1388165-Lets-re-examine-the-AC-Franchise-and-help-out-the-devs!/page22

Now I'll be honest, I'm not looking at something so deep such as meeting for a coffee but I do agree that the Syndicate approach was simply wrong, in a way that we get to meet the twins when they already are master assassins.

How did they reach that level? They speak about their father but who is he? They talk about how he raised them but we don't get to see it.

I insist that the next game should introduce us to the character when he's still a little boy, like ACIII and that it should include a non-assassin side to the character.

Sesheenku
07-04-2016, 08:29 PM
To be fair, we did that with Ezio, but you said you didn't connect with him either. We saw him start out as a punk whose favorite pastime was chasing girls and starting fights. We hung out with our older brother and helped our sick younger brother complete a secret project that we never even found out what it was. The entire first sequence we spent with Ezio showed him as a typical spoiled and bored rich kid (who saw himself as a sex god but was embarrassed to hear his mom refer to genitals), wasting his life doing mundane things. The beginning of Brotherhood is similar in that Ezio is happy to be back at Monteriggioni just helping out the townspeople with everyday problems, and in Revelations there are several missions that are all about him trying to impress Sofia. AC3's Homestead missions are all about showing the softer side of Connor, doing simple things to help out his friends, building himself a new family to replace the one he lost.

I'm just not sure what you think they should be doing that they haven't already done in several games.


Connor and the homestead as I said was the only example that's the only time I could connect with him a bit better.

The rest of those moments in other games are few and far between.

AC2 gave us a few hours of introducing us to characters but they didn't develop them. We know the basics about Claudia/Maria/Mario/Volpe/Paula/etc. etc.

As I was saying about the homestead, it was closer to a persona game esque approach to character development which imo is the most effective way of developing a character.

What I'm saying they should do is make these characters available at times to just have little events where you learn more about them and have fun with them. No I don't mean 2 or 3 or 10 times even I mean really go all out and let us know them as well as the protagonist knows them.

Have you ever played Persona? By the end of Persona there's nothing you don't know about the group you're with. They feel like real people, you've had fun with them, laughed, cried, gone through struggles, etc. You know their hobbies, their likes and dislikes, their past, their goals for the future, and their flaws and good traits. Because you had an ENTIRE game that allowed you to stray away from the action and take time to know them.

AC can do this too. If it spent as much time on some events like that as it did on its excellent level design there would be much stronger characters.

Other AC's regardless of the tidbits of story and character are largely about the game play. The way they handle it is not enough for me to truly and properly connect.

I might know a lot about Ezio but I only got to see him have his normal relationships for a very short while in between tons of action. It's not enough to round him out.


Yes, in all fairness I made the same mistake with AC:Revelations, back then I told myself to be more patient but then came Unity and all my patience was gone.

Ironically enough, these two games are now two of my favourites in the series.




I did suggest something on post #219 of this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1388165-Lets-re-examine-the-AC-Franchise-and-help-out-the-devs!/page22

Now I'll be honest, I'm not looking at something so deep such as meeting for a coffee but I do agree that the Syndicate approach was simply wrong, in a way that we get to meet the twins when they already are master assassins.

How did they reach that level? They speak about their father but who is he? They talk about how he raised them but we don't get to see it.

I insist that the next game should introduce us to the character when he's still a little boy, like ACIII and that it should include a non-assassin side to the character.

It felt like an 80's show... they just pop up and go hurrrr wanna kill Templars in london? 'Kay. Sweet.

I don't think they need to limit themselves to repeating the boy to adulthood thing but maybe have them mention it at some point while talking to another character.

Just some natural dialogue, two normal people getting to know each other and opening up more as they create a bond. Not necessarily all main story events and definitely not all leading to an action sequence.

I don't need action every 15 mins. I would VERY much like to get to know a character properly for once and not only know a lot about them, as we do with Ezio/Connor but also their relationships with others.

It's very important they take the time out of the action to do this. Else no matter what relationship they throw the character will never feel like a person, merely a conduit through which we interact with the game world.

Fatal-Feit
07-04-2016, 11:16 PM
Dunno man, I guess it proves all those people crying for more difficulty and complexity are just whining for nothing because when it was finally given to them, they hated it.

In all fairness, people didn't know what to expect going into Unity at launch, which was essentially a reboot for the gameplay. It's hard to invest time in the gameplay if it was chock-full of performance issues and bugs. You had it easier since you picked up the game on a sale after it's been mostly patched.

The missing features such as picking up bodies and whistling also gave players the impression that the gameplay have been stripped down more than anything.



One guy I know who loves Syndicate to death got in a debate with me about the combat and said the combat was not just press x to kill cause you occasionally press the break defense button XDDD

Yes you press the break defense button to spam the next button and repeat until bad things fall down.

Much improvement rite?

There are some elements that was an improvement such as a warning and dedicated button for dodging and countering bullets (did you know that you can dodge bullets in Unity if you crouch?), tool-finishers, and... I guess better hit detection. - I hate how the first melee strike always pauses the frame, and same when an ally finishes an enemy before you, in Unity.

Syndicate's combat system isn't the brainless button smasher that most people think, honestly. There's a lot of mechanics happening at once that should keep your mind racing in strategy and timing, more so than Unity. Dodging/countering bullets, breaking the enemies' defenses, countering, etc - there's as much system in play and it's all happening at twice the speed of Unity. The issue is that, like the rest of the game, Syndicate is incredibly unbalanced in favor of the players. The developers add in so much shortcuts and exploits through the skill tree that a monkey can complete the game. There's really no way to successfully button mash your way through the combat without tanking some hits because of blocking and countering but Syndicate can make us such a powerhouse that we can take stabbings and bullet shots for days.

The next time you do a playthrough of Syndicate, I recommend that you avoid ALL defense/health bonuses/upgrades. Because 2-3 hits can finish you, you'll find yourself mashing less buttons and becoming more thoughtful throughout combat situations after the midway point.


Sooooo much better than the thoughtful Unity combat system with its offense/defense cycles and its dependency on finding openings to exploit /sarcasm end

While I believe Syndicate's combat system is just as good (if you avoid A LOT of the upgrades in the skill tree), I do much prefer the more contemplative pacing of Unity's combat system. It felt more realistic and fitting for AC. However, I kind of disagree with what doogsy91 said about Unity's combat system being the closest thing we have to perfection. AC1's combat (and AC2's to some degree) was essentially the same thing, but much better done. I'm currently on a replay of AC1 (close to completion; just one sequence left) and there are so many things that AC1's combat has and done that Unity fails to match. The biggest contrast is in how the enemies of AC1 react. They're intelligent and have a variety of moves to counter the players. Grabbing/throwing, countering/parrying your attacks or combos, attacking you from the back, breaking your defense with guard-break, and feinting with short and heavy attacks that aren't nearly as readable as Unity's. They're aggressive and they have enough skills to tear you apart if it weren't for the big health bar. The animations and its pacing is also much preferred because it's quick and the most realistic we have in the series. I like Unity's combat animations, but they're too readable/predictable and most of the animations would get you killed in actuality. I'm hoping the next AC will bring back AC1's combat and combine it with some of Unity features and ideas such as:

- Choosing to have a realistically small health bar.

- Choosing between non-lethal, short, or long finisher animations. (my favorite feature)

- Huge range of melee weapons with their own specialties to choose from.

- Being able to equip two different tools at once.

Not sure what else I can mention...

SixKeys
07-05-2016, 12:45 AM
What I'm saying they should do is make these characters available at times to just have little events where you learn more about them and have fun with them. No I don't mean 2 or 3 or 10 times even I mean really go all out and let us know them as well as the protagonist knows them.

I think I see what you're saying, but I dunno, to me AC just isn't meant to be that type of game. It started off as an assassin simulator, Alta´r was intentionally aloof and cold because we weren't meant to dig deep into his or his friends' emotions. We were meant to be a stone-cold killer. Then came Ezio, and everyone praised him for being more like an everyman, and due to his popularity they've tried to replicate that formula ever since, dragging the game further away from its original idea. Connor was more of an exception, being fairly stoic, but even in his case they put more emphasis on running a town than being a freaking assassin.

I want these games to go BACK to being an assassin, not move further away from that. In order to put more emphasis on emotions, AC would have to be an entirely different type of game, where your motivation is not being a member of a secret cult dedicated to murdering political figures. It already gets absurd at times how these games attempt to moralize at you about taking the high road when the gameplay is centered on killing and causing mayhem. An assassin shouldn't even have many friends, considering the inherent dangers and moral dilemmas. Even the trailer for AC1 used the song "Lonely Soul".



Have you ever played Persona? By the end of Persona there's nothing you don't know about the group you're with. They feel like real people, you've had fun with them, laughed, cried, gone through struggles, etc. You know their hobbies, their likes and dislikes, their past, their goals for the future, and their flaws and good traits. Because you had an ENTIRE game that allowed you to stray away from the action and take time to know them.

I haven't played Persona, no. I've played a few other JRPGs though, and Dragon Age sounds pretty similar to what you're describing. Those are games that are about unity and friendship, though. In those games, it's central to the gameplay that I learn all about my comrades-in-arms. In AC, I'm supposed to be more like a classic superhero. A lonely soul who avoids personal attachment and whose main motivation is justice. I shouldn't have the time to run errands for people. I shouldn't have the necessary social skills to develop deep, meaningful friendships because all my youth was spent training to kill people.

AC simply isn't a game where it makes sense to get to know everyone, because the underlying theme is pretty nihilistic: it's almost a certainty that you and/or everyone you love is not going to die of old age. In most RPGs, there is a clear and present danger that needs to be vanquished once and for all, and once you do that, peace will return and you have a chance at living the rest of your life happily. In AC, it has been made abundantly clear that the Templars vs. Assassins fight is one that will never, ever be won. There are only small, temporary victories and every person on either side is but one small cog in a giant machine.

Sesheenku
07-05-2016, 03:16 AM
In all fairness, people didn't know what to expect going into Unity at launch, which was essentially a reboot for the gameplay. It's hard to invest time in the gameplay if it was chock-full of performance issues and bugs. You had it easier since you picked up the game on a sale after it's been mostly patched.

True.


The missing features such as picking up bodies and whistling also gave players the impression that the gameplay have been stripped down more than anything.

It was a bit odd to let myself be detected to lure them like the old days again.


There are some elements that was an improvement such as a warning and dedicated button for dodging and countering bullets (did you know that you can dodge bullets in Unity if you crouch?), tool-finishers, and... I guess better hit detection. - I hate how the first melee strike always pauses the frame, and same when an ally finishes an enemy before you, in Unity.

X} I didn't know about the crouch dodge no.


Syndicate's combat system isn't the brainless button smasher that most people think, honestly. There's a lot of mechanics happening at once that should keep your mind racing in strategy and timing, more so than Unity. Dodging/countering bullets, breaking the enemies' defenses, countering, etc - there's as much system in play and it's all happening at twice the speed of Unity. The issue is that, like the rest of the game, Syndicate is incredibly unbalanced in favor of the players. The developers add in so much shortcuts and exploits through the skill tree that a monkey can complete the game. There's really no way to successfully button mash your way through the combat without tanking some hits because of blocking and countering but Syndicate can make us such a powerhouse that we can take stabbings and bullet shots for days.

I don't know man I felt it was button mashy. Break defense, tap tap tap, dead, repeat, maybe counter or dodge a bullet a few times. It's way easier than Unity, the speed they give you makes it easy.


The next time you do a playthrough of Syndicate, I recommend that you avoid ALL defense/health bonuses/upgrades. Because 2-3 hits can finish you, you'll find yourself mashing less buttons and becoming more thoughtful throughout combat situations after the midway point.

I could do that but it doesn't excuse that playing the game as one naturally would causes button mashy combat.


While I believe Syndicate's combat system is just as good (if you avoid A LOT of the upgrades in the skill tree), I do much prefer the more contemplative pacing of Unity's combat system. It felt more realistic and fitting for AC. However, I kind of disagree with what doogsy91 said about Unity's combat system being the closest thing we have to perfection. AC1's combat (and AC2's to some degree) was essentially the same thing, but much better done. I'm currently on a replay of AC1 (close to completion; just one sequence left) and there are so many things that AC1's combat has and done that Unity fails to match. The biggest contrast is in how the enemies of AC1 react. They're intelligent and have a variety of moves to counter the players. Grabbing/throwing, countering/parrying your attacks or combos, attacking you from the back, breaking your defense with guard-break, and feinting with short and heavy attacks that aren't nearly as readable as Unity's. They're aggressive and they have enough skills to tear you apart if it weren't for the big health bar. The animations and its pacing is also much preferred because it's quick and the most realistic we have in the series. I like Unity's combat animations, but they're too readable/predictable and most of the animations would get you killed in actuality. I'm hoping the next AC will bring back AC1's combat and combine it with some of Unity features and ideas such as:

- Choosing to have a realistically small health bar.

- Choosing between non-lethal, short, or long finisher animations. (my favorite feature)

- Huge range of melee weapons with their own specialties to choose from.

- Being able to equip two different tools at once.

Not sure what else I can mention...

Yeah I remember AC 1's combat. Can't say it's not better. The enemies really could tear you up, even alone.

You knew you were rocking when you could take on that Templar camp outside Acre without taking damage :P

Sesheenku
07-05-2016, 03:48 AM
I think I see what you're saying, but I dunno, to me AC just isn't meant to be that type of game. It started off as an assassin simulator, Alta´r was intentionally aloof and cold because we weren't meant to dig deep into his or his friends' emotions. We were meant to be a stone-cold killer. Then came Ezio, and everyone praised him for being more like an everyman, and due to his popularity they've tried to replicate that formula ever since, dragging the game further away from its original idea. Connor was more of an exception, being fairly stoic, but even in his case they put more emphasis on running a town than being a freaking assassin.

I want these games to go BACK to being an assassin, not move further away from that. In order to put more emphasis on emotions, AC would have to be an entirely different type of game, where your motivation is not being a member of a secret cult dedicated to murdering political figures. It already gets absurd at times how these games attempt to moralize at you about taking the high road when the gameplay is centered on killing and causing mayhem. An assassin shouldn't even have many friends, considering the inherent dangers and moral dilemmas. Even the trailer for AC1 used the song "Lonely Soul".

It makes sense for Altair considering the state of the order in his era and the devotion of people back then to specific disciplined life styles.

Afterwards though both orders really loosen up a bit. It's not realistic for them to not have emotions anymore. They no longer all live and breathe the order from the day of their birth, every assassins has their own diverse background now and thus would not be so easily able to dispose of emotions in that way.


I haven't played Persona, no. I've played a few other JRPGs though, and Dragon Age sounds pretty similar to what you're describing. Those are games that are about unity and friendship, though. In those games, it's central to the gameplay that I learn all about my comrades-in-arms. In AC, I'm supposed to be more like a classic superhero. A lonely soul who avoids personal attachment and whose main motivation is justice. I shouldn't have the time to run errands for people. I shouldn't have the necessary social skills to develop deep, meaningful friendships because all my youth was spent training to kill people.

That was the case in AC1 but it certainly changed things as the series went on. Also don't forget many of the later assassins such as Ezio/Edward were living regular lives prior to their induction into the order. They definitely have social skills and indeed it's far less common for an assassin to be raised in so strict a manner in the post Altair era.


AC simply isn't a game where it makes sense to get to know everyone, because the underlying theme is pretty nihilistic: it's almost a certainty that you and/or everyone you love is not going to die of old age. In most RPGs, there is a clear and present danger that needs to be vanquished once and for all, and once you do that, peace will return and you have a chance at living the rest of your life happily. In AC, it has been made abundantly clear that the Templars vs. Assassins fight is one that will never, ever be won. There are only small, temporary victories and every person on either side is but one small cog in a giant machine.

Soldiers in real life make friends in the middle of long wars. Like I said in the post Altair era the emotional state of assassins is closer to regular people due to their diverse background amd reasons for committing to the cause.

It's only realistic that they form some sort of connection with their peers, their fellows.

Altair is the exception due to the era he was born in and yet even he made some connections later on.

MikeFNY
07-05-2016, 04:05 PM
I think I see what you're saying, but I dunno, to me AC just isn't meant to be that type of game. It started off as an assassin simulator, Alta´r was intentionally aloof and cold because we weren't meant to dig deep into his or his friends' emotions. We were meant to be a stone-cold killer. Then came Ezio, and everyone praised him for being more like an everyman, and due to his popularity they've tried to replicate that formula ever since, dragging the game further away from its original idea. Connor was more of an exception, being fairly stoic, but even in his case they put more emphasis on running a town than being a freaking assassin.

I want these games to go BACK to being an assassin, not move further away from that. In order to put more emphasis on emotions, AC would have to be an entirely different type of game, where your motivation is not being a member of a secret cult dedicated to murdering political figures. It already gets absurd at times how these games attempt to moralize at you about taking the high road when the gameplay is centered on killing and causing mayhem. An assassin shouldn't even have many friends, considering the inherent dangers and moral dilemmas. Even the trailer for AC1 used the song "Lonely Soul".

You raise a very valid point there actually, but we have to admit and accept that the game has indeed changed since the days of Altair.

Having said that, the idea of going back to an Altair-type of assassins fascinates me.

But allow me to ask: how would you solve the problem of having a big, open-world game where the character is constantly getting in touch with people yet he is expected to keep a disinterested approach?

Whenever Altair helped someone out or whenever he needed information, the whole thing lasted a few seconds, he acted then he was gone.

In recent games we have seen the characters interact with the likes of Da Vinci, Charles ****ens, Karl Marx and they had long conversations throughout the game.

I'm on the fence on this one. I wouldn't mind going back to someone like Altair where we only see his memories as an assassin.

But at the same time I wouldn't mind having the normal person by day, assassin by night type of character.

Sesheenku
07-06-2016, 12:09 AM
Well to be fair if the rumor is true the next game is in Egypt, and more than likely sometime during Darius's time and the first recorded use of the hidden blade.

With that noted it would be perfectly realistic to have another disconnected character due to the unfaltering devotion to lifestyles people had in those times.

They might even be so bold as to push us all the way back to 30 BCE prior to the use of the hidden blade entirely.

We may also follow a child/descendant of one of Altairs children sometime after 1257. Who knows..

Iskender was one such descendant and he became the mentor of the Egpytian brotherhood while Ezio was in Constantinople.

SixKeys
07-06-2016, 12:35 AM
You raise a very valid point there actually, but we have to admit and accept that the game has indeed changed since the days of Altair.

Having said that, the idea of going back to an Altair-type of assassins fascinates me.

But allow me to ask: how would you solve the problem of having a big, open-world game where the character is constantly getting in touch with people yet he is expected to keep a disinterested approach?

That's a valid question. It wouldn't be the first time it's been done, though. Look at John Marston in RDR. It's almost comical how he keeps getting pulled into other people's problems when he has no personal attachment to them (besides Bonnie). AC4 kinda did it with Edward. The trick is to have a mercenary type character with a tunnel vision: "will this help me achieve my main goal?" For Edward it was money. For Marston it was getting closer to his old gang. For an assassin like Connor it was CHARLES LEE!!! :p (With the caveat that Connor was also a good, caring person who helped people just 'cause. It was only with people like Paul Revere whom he openly despised that he was all business.)

There isn't just one right formula that should apply for each entry in the series. I wouldn't mind going back to an emotionless killer like Alta´r for a change of pace, but that doesn't mean every game should be like that. Personally I feel that a Persona-like approach wouldn't work because I'm already worried about the series increasingly losing its focus on the "assassin" part and turning into a generic anything-goes open world without a serious motivation. In the last three games our protagonists have seemed fairly disinterested in being part of an ancient brotherhood and spend most of their time doing irrelevant stuff like collecting flowers, hunting, treasure-diving and drift-racing. It almost feels like the devs want to make games that aren't AC-specific and use the franchise name mainly for leverage. Unity was supposed to be a tragic love story between two lovers with clashing ideologies, but the game barely even touched on this. Arno didn't give a hoot about the assassin ideology, all he wanted was a way to prove himself to Elise so she would take him back. Would it really have changed the story to not have the Templar-Assassin conflict in the story at all? Just have a game set in the French Revolution about two lovers who get torn apart for whatever reason, just not due to two ancient orders?

I'm not saying I want these games to move away from the central conflict, I'm saying it's already happening and it feels like it's due to the devs not actually being all that invested in AC (as opposed to other concepts that appeal to them more personally, like making a pirate game or a steampunk game). If it doesn't feel like the game is interested in telling an AC story but just a historical story in general, why try and force it into the AC mold?

This is a long way of saying that if Ubi wants to do a Persona-like RPG where talking to your companions is essential because it's essential to the story that you get to know every character on an intimate level, that's fine. Just don't call it AC. Because not every concept works for AC.

Sesheenku
07-06-2016, 12:50 AM
I think you've misinterpreted how the Persona formula works.

These characters are not side content. They are with you in every battle and apart of your daily events. Connecting with them goes hand in hand with enhancing the story...

You're missing the point of the person type deal with AC too... it's not to distract them from being an assassins at all.... it's to enhance everything.

To enhance their interactions INSIDE the brotherhood about the brotherhood and connect with characters AND outside (their daily lives).

As opposed to what you think, this approach if done correctly should strengthen the players feeling of being one with the brotherhood and give them a desire to complete their goals.

Because the character is interacting with others who share similar problems, goals, and lifestyle. Discussing those things with each other to give the player insight into the trials and good things about that lifestyle.

Ureh
07-06-2016, 08:28 PM
I must say I was very satisfied! I really liked this game a lot. It reminded me a lot of AC1 in some ways. I know this game got a bad rap but, I thought it was awesome (playing fully patched). Paris is beautiful. Combat was great. Missions were interesting. My only negative thing is that there is almost too much to do. Too many collectables, etc....But, I loved the game. Installing Syndicate in he Xbox One right now. Looking forward to that. I do have the Dead Kings DLC but, I think I'm going to come back to that.

I pretty much felt the same way too. But instead of adding all of the collectibles, murder mysteries, paris stories, companion stuff, they should've made some extra missions revolving around Elise: one type are flashbacks when Arno is thinking of times past, and another type is Arno helping Elise with her Templar allies. Yea I know Bellec and some of the other Assassins would get mad, but that's the point. It's about the Dream of Unity right? Doing so, they could return the favour by helping us with intel, equipment, anything to help get closer to the Templar traitors. They could even promise to uphold a new truce, if everything works out in the end. Elise said she still had allies who yet lived (despite being intimidated into silence) and it's clear that there were Templars who chose to support Lafraniere instead of Germain. It could've worked!

As for Syndicate... well let's just say I'll be waiting a long time for some of the dlc to download. 16 gb for jack, 4 gb for last, and 2.5 gb left for two outfits. But so far I'm enjoying what I've already got.

SixKeys
07-06-2016, 08:58 PM
I think you've misinterpreted how the Persona formula works.

These characters are not side content. They are with you in every battle and apart of your daily events. Connecting with them goes hand in hand with enhancing the story...

You're missing the point of the person type deal with AC too... it's not to distract them from being an assassins at all.... it's to enhance everything.

To enhance their interactions INSIDE the brotherhood about the brotherhood and connect with characters AND outside (their daily lives).

As opposed to what you think, this approach if done correctly should strengthen the players feeling of being one with the brotherhood and give them a desire to complete their goals.

Because the character is interacting with others who share similar problems, goals, and lifestyle. Discussing those things with each other to give the player insight into the trials and good things about that lifestyle.

No, I get it. That's exactly how Dragon Age works too. What I don't understand is how you would apply the same style of gameplay to AC. You want a game where your comrades are constantly with you when you're trying to sneak around? Like the thieves in AC2? How would that work, AI-wise?

The problem with RPGs where you have multiple party members is you better make damn sure all of them are at least tolerable. I wanted to toss each and every one of Connor's Homestead companions off a cliff (save for Achilles), I can't imagine spending the entire game trying to connect with any of them on a deeper level and acting like I have a genuine bond with them.

Sesheenku
07-06-2016, 10:59 PM
No, I get it. That's exactly how Dragon Age works too. What I don't understand is how you would apply the same style of gameplay to AC. You want a game where your comrades are constantly with you when you're trying to sneak around? Like the thieves in AC2? How would that work, AI-wise?

Not at all. They might be available with you some mission like any other AC but every mission isn't what I'm asking for.

I'm not asking for a party type thing.


The problem with RPGs where you have multiple party members is you better make damn sure all of them are at least tolerable. I wanted to toss each and every one of Connor's Homestead companions off a cliff (save for Achilles), I can't imagine spending the entire game trying to connect with any of them on a deeper level and acting like I have a genuine bond with them.

Well again I'm not saying these should be party members and be with you at all times.

I'm saying when they're doing they're stuff they should be at the assassin hideout occasionally (and gone on missions and unavailable sometimes) and other times they might ask you to talk or about something or have a drink when they're done with their work for the day. Just so you can get to know them. All optional of course, if you choose no you can carry on without the character interaction. You might find them in the city and maybe they want a break. Stuff like that.

I think it would be an opportunity for Ubisoft to better its writing and character development skills and possibly make the lives and various fates of fellow assassins impactful. Their success, their failure, them living or dying. It should mean something and it's hard to feel that way with a character you've only had a handful of cutscenes with, even if they're important to the story.

Megas_Doux
07-09-2016, 04:24 PM
I still love/hate that game up to this day....

SixKeys
07-09-2016, 10:49 PM
I'm saying when they're doing they're stuff they should be at the assassin hideout occasionally (and gone on missions and unavailable sometimes) and other times they might ask you to talk or about something or have a drink when they're done with their work for the day. Just so you can get to know them. All optional of course, if you choose no you can carry on without the character interaction. You might find them in the city and maybe they want a break. Stuff like that.

Hmm, I could get on board with something like that. Though I feel compelled to point out that the assassin recruits in AC3 were kind of like this. You could go and have a drink with them in a tavern any time you wanted and they would tell you their life story. Problem was that not all of them were equally interesting and even though they were technically our recruits, they were so unmemorable I hardly ever remembered that using them was an option. It probably would have helped a lot if those moments were done with pre-rendered cut scenes instead of in-game graphics.

Sesheenku
07-09-2016, 10:55 PM
Hmm, I could get on board with something like that. Though I feel compelled to point out that the assassin recruits in AC3 were kind of like this. You could go and have a drink with them in a tavern any time you wanted and they would tell you their life story. Problem was that not all of them were equally interesting and even though they were technically our recruits, they were so unmemorable I hardly ever remembered that using them was an option. It probably would have helped a lot if those moments were done with pre-rendered cut scenes instead of in-game graphics.

Well it's certainly not easy.

It might help to start out one main mission with a fellow assassin or two. Y'know make one of their epic action set pieces with them so you get a first impression (hopefully good) of at least one of them.

They also need to vary up personalities a bit more.

The recruits in 3 failed to really make their presence known. While it should be optional for this genre of game, it really helps if they have some screen time in the actual plot too.

cawatrooper9
07-11-2016, 04:58 PM
Hmm, I could get on board with something like that. Though I feel compelled to point out that the assassin recruits in AC3 were kind of like this. You could go and have a drink with them in a tavern any time you wanted and they would tell you their life story. Problem was that not all of them were equally interesting and even though they were technically our recruits, they were so unmemorable I hardly ever remembered that using them was an option. It probably would have helped a lot if those moments were done with pre-rendered cut scenes instead of in-game graphics.

Yeah, I can see how this can appeal to some people, but I never really felt the urge to hang out with my video game NPC buddies. Roman's cell phone abuse in GTA IV kind of killed that fantasy for me.

Personally, I really liked the customization/permadeath offered in ACB and ACR. Even though I couldn't hit up a pub with my Assassins, I felt far more connected to them than I ever did the ACIII ones. No contrived plot points or dialogue were needed because they were in many ways my Assassins. I trained them, I sent them out on missions, and I specifically chose them to join my Brotherhood. And if they died, I was responsible. I just didn't feel that with ACIII's model.

LucidReveries
07-12-2016, 10:06 PM
Unity is better

SixKeys
07-12-2016, 11:46 PM
Personally, I really liked the customization/permadeath offered in ACB and ACR. Even though I couldn't hit up a pub with my Assassins, I felt far more connected to them than I ever did the ACIII ones. No contrived plot points or dialogue were needed because they were in many ways my Assassins. I trained them, I sent them out on missions, and I specifically chose them to join my Brotherhood. And if they died, I was responsible. I just didn't feel that with ACIII's model.

Agreed. I even prefer ACB's assassins over ACR's because they don't have pre-defined personalities. I can come up with my own stories and personalities for these characters, which makes me like them more and feel sad when they die. I never really connected to the recruits' pre-made stories in ACR.

cawatrooper9
07-13-2016, 02:47 PM
Agreed. I even prefer ACB's assassins over ACR's because they don't have pre-defined personalities. I can come up with my own stories and personalities for these characters, which makes me like them more and feel sad when they die. I never really connected to the recruits' pre-made stories in ACR.

I've always kind of felt that way about ACB over ACR, too. For me, it was because the recruits in ACB pretty much all start at level 1. In ACR a lot of them come pre-leveled- once again, making them feel less like "my" Assassins. And you're totally right about the personality thing too- maybe it's just us, but I'd take a blank slate to fill in over color-by-number characterization any day.

Sesheenku
07-13-2016, 06:51 PM
If they're doing it right, color-by-number should be the last thing you use to describe it.

The problem is they're never doing it right.