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View Full Version : IAR series automatic prop and rad ??



JG53Frankyboy
03-05-2004, 07:35 PM
did the IAR80and 81 series realy had an automatic porpeller and and automatic radiator ??

shouldnt it be a CSP and only manual Radiator controle ??

btw, the Sakae 12 engine of the A6M2 had only a one-stage supercharger. so, there should be no second loader stage in AEP
and thx for the at least wooden fix propeller in the PZL11 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by JG53Frankyboy on Fri March 05 2004 at 07:32 PM.]

JG53Frankyboy
03-05-2004, 07:35 PM
did the IAR80and 81 series realy had an automatic porpeller and and automatic radiator ??

shouldnt it be a CSP and only manual Radiator controle ??

btw, the Sakae 12 engine of the A6M2 had only a one-stage supercharger. so, there should be no second loader stage in AEP
and thx for the at least wooden fix propeller in the PZL11 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by JG53Frankyboy on Fri March 05 2004 at 07:32 PM.]

Willey
03-06-2004, 06:53 AM
P.11c has a fixed blade now??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif WHat about it's radiator? Didn't test it, but for sure it shouldn't have a control for it, just like the Gladiator.

BTW IIRC the A6M2 engine coughed at negative Gs... at least it was like that in WarBirds.

Thanks for the IAR-81*c* (!) BTW http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. It got 20mms now. 13mm MG 131 was correct for 81a. You should let it and rename it to 81c.

JG53Frankyboy
03-06-2004, 01:41 PM
are you sure about the 20mm in the IAR81?
i doubt it, and both the Gemran 13 and 20mm have blue tracers

edit:
well realy , it sounds like the MG151/20 ?!?!

some clarifikation would be nice.

btw , this IAR80, well , tough to sonething shoot down with its 4 light MGs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
could we get 6 like the IAR80a ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by JG53Frankyboy on Sat March 06 2004 at 06:04 PM.]

Bula
03-11-2004, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
are you sure about the 20mm in the IAR81?
i doubt it, and both the Gemran 13 and 20mm have blue tracers

edit:
well realy , it sounds like the MG151/20 ?!?!

some clarifikation would be nice.

btw , this IAR80, well , tough to sonething shoot down with its 4 light MGs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
could we get 6 like the IAR80a ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by JG53Frankyboy on Sat March 06 2004 at 06:04 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dan Antoniu states in his book on the IAR 80 that earlier models were retro-fitted with 20mm MG151/20s, as does Denes Bernad, so it's not inconceivable that the IAR 81As in IL2 FB AEP are such planes. The blueprints/sketches that I have, some of which are reproduced in Axworthy's book "Third Axis, Fourth Ally," show that aircraft 181 - 230 (IAR 80B) and 291 - 300 (IAR 81A) carried the two 13mm and four 7.92mm FN armament layout. This same source shows that aircraft 241 - 290 (IAR 80C) had the two 20mm Ikaria and four 7.92mm FN armament configuration, whereas aicraft 301 - 461 were fitted with two 20mm MG151/20s and two, not four, 7.92mm FNs (IAR 81C). None of these sources (Antoniu and Axworthy's respective books and the blueprints/sketches I have from Romania) mention that the light MGs were 7.62mm, but, of course, these sources could be wrong.

I should note that the data Antoniu and Axworthy present often contradict each other, so what I have presented above is an attempt to make conflicting sets of data fit together in a more-or-less logical fashion. What both authors agree upon is the lack of an IAR 81B. Evidently, IAR 81Bs were stripped of their bomb racks and turned into pure fighters (thus making them IAR 80s). However, this '80 is a fighter' and '81 is a fighter-bomber' categorization breaks down somewhat, since it appears that many IAR81Cs were stripped of their bomb-carrying capability and used as pure fighters, too.

Does this make any sense?

Btw, Antoniu's book is "The IAR-80 Fighter: The History of a Forgotten Hero," (it's in Romanian) and Bernad's is "Rumanian Air Force: The Prime Decade, 1938 - 1947" (Squadron-Signal Publications).

Forgot to add: I can find no evidence that the IAR 80-81 series had auto prop pitch or auto radiator controls. However, until someone more knowledgeable chimes in, there isn't enough evidence to suggest to 1:C Maddox that the IAR 80-81 series' engine and radiator controls should be changed in the upcoming patch. By the same token, and with the exception of upping the Browning FNs to 7.92mm, there isn't enough evidence to suggest that the armament be changed, either.

[This message was edited by Bula on Thu March 11 2004 at 08:06 PM.]

[This message was edited by Bula on Thu March 11 2004 at 08:08 PM.]

Willey
03-12-2004, 08:17 AM
I.A.R. 80 - Armament: 4 Browning 7.62mm FN machine-guns.
I.A.R. 80A - Armament: 6 Browning 7.62mm FN machine-guns; Bombs of different weight under 100 kg.
I.A.R. 80B - Armament: 4 Browning 7.62mm FN machine-guns and two 13mm MG 131 machine-guns.

I.A.R.81 - Dive-bomber. Armament: 6 Browning 7.62mm FN machine-guns. Bombs: one 250 kg beneath the fuselage and four 50 kg bombs under each of the wings.
I.A.R.81A - Dive-bomber. Armament: 4 Browning 7.62mm FN machine-guns and 2 13mm MG 131 machine-guns. Bombs: same as above.
I.A.R.81B - Dive-bomber. Armament: 4 Browning 7.62mm FN machine-guns and two 20mm MG FF cannons. Bombs: no change. Two mountings for additional drop tanks.
I.A.R.81C - Fighter-bomber. Armament: 4 Browning 7.62mm FN machine-guns and 2 20mm MG-151 cannons. Bombs: same configuration.

^^taken from the database. I suggest to:

Rename IAR 81a to IAR 81c
Give the IAR 80 those 2 MG 131s and rename it ot IAR 80 B or make a 80 A out of it (2 more light MGs). Here you also could make those 2 models, so we have all 3 variants.

Bula
03-12-2004, 09:52 AM
Willey,

What database are you referring to? The planes database on the IL2 web site? The data there appear to be mistaken. The IAR 81Bs were stripped of their hardpoints for carrying bombs and re-designated IAR 80Cs before reaching the front, so there were no 81Bs in service (sources: Antoniu and Axworthy). The Browning FN light MGs should be 7.92mm, not 7.62mm as listed in the IL2 database. The IAR81Cs left the factory with two MG 151/20s and two, not four, Browning FNs. The only a/c that carried the two MG 151/20 and four FN combo were retrofitted IAR 80As and Bs and IAR 81 and 81As. Re-reading both Antoniu and Axworthy, these retrofitted a/c did not see service until after 1942 (no exact date was given).

Do a Google search under IAR 80 and 81 and take a look at the images you find of 81Cs--none that I have found have four FNs. Similarly, none of the books I have show pics of 81Cs with four FNs (those w/pics include: Bernad's "Rumanian Airforce: The Prime Decade, 1938 - 1947" and "Rumanian Aces of World War Two," Antoniu's "The IAR - 80 Fighter: The History of a Forgotten Hero," and Cristian Craciunoiu's "Romanian Aeronautics in the Second World War," which contains many excellent colour plates and boatloads of photos). The cut-away drawing of the IAR 80 sent to Ian Boys and posted on Il2 Center represents an a/c that has been retrofitted with the MG 151/20s, hence the four FNs.

Grach
03-12-2004, 06:25 PM
They didn't use 13mm MG-131 either.
'13mm' weapon used was actually 13.2mm FN-Browning.
Just think of a .50 cal Browning with a slightly larger bullet. Uses the 13.2x99mm cartridge originally designed by France for the Hotchkiss HMG. Essentially it is a necked up .50 cal. Should be rather more powerful than MG-131.
Be nice to have this armament type available too. We have multiple MiG-3's, Spit V's and armament variations available for Fw-190A and Bf-109G6.
What about this one Oleg?
Please?

JG53Frankyboy
03-12-2004, 06:29 PM
sure the 13mmFN was not the same as the MG131c in real.

but i think the MG131 was used as a placeholder in the AI IAR81 till FB1.22.

but now FB2.oAEP, they are using the MG151/20 in the IAR81.
and oleg told me that it was an error of a programmer to call it IAR81a - it is actually a IAR81c in the game - will see what will happen in the patch

Bula
03-12-2004, 11:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
sure the 13mmFN was not the same as the MG131c in real.

but i think the MG131 was used as a placeholder in the AI IAR81 till FB1.22.

but now FB2.oAEP, they are using the MG151/20 in the IAR81.
and oleg told me that it was an error of a programmer to call it IAR81a - it is actually a IAR81c in the game - will see what will happen in the patch<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, that makes some sense. 1:C should still delete the outer pair of 7.92mm FNs (wrongly modeled as 7.62mm FNs), though. I finally dug up my copy of Axworthy's book. He authoritatively states that IAR81Cs were equipped with two MG 151/20s and two, not four, FN 7.92mm. Aircraft retrofitted with the 20mm cannon were designated 80M or 81M (depending on their factory designations). These aircraft were seen sporting the four 7.92mm FN and two MG 151/20 armament configuration.

Another point comes up now that I have re-read Axworthy: the 81Cs had their ventral bomb cradles removed. Romanian pilots complained that the ventral bomb cradle had a noticeable detrimental effect on the IAR's performance and, with the delivery of Ju 87 divebombers to the Romanian Air Force, the need for bomb-carrying IARs no longer existed. The IAR81C in the game therefore should look more-or-less like the IAR80. The only noticeable exterior difference would be the replacement of the inner pair of 7.92mm FNs with MG151/20s.

The use of the IAR 81 and 81A with a ventral bomb cradle was limited to 1942 and 1943, according to Axworthy. As noted above, the 81Cs had their ventral cradles removed (either before or shortly after becoming operational).

So, Oleg, if you read this, here are what Axworthy and the sources cited earlier have to say about the IAR 80-81 series:

1. The Browning FNs were 7.92mm, not 7.62mm.
2. The IAR 81C's armament consisted of two, not four, 7.92mm FNs and two MG 151/20s.
3. Axworthy and Antoniu both state that all 81 variants suffered a significant degradation in performance when fitted with the ventral bomb cradle. In nearly all cases, the cradle was removed (either in the factory or in the field) and the aircraft became "pure" fighters, although some retained the ability to carry one, not two, 50kg bomb under each wing. (The sources cited in this post show that the 81 variants never carried four 50kg bombs under the wing.)
4. The 13.2mm MGs were FNs, not MG131s.
5. Sometime toward the end of the war (I can't find any general, let alone specific, dates), the Romanians began retrofitting non-cannon armed IAR 80s and 81s with two 20mm MG151/20s and designating them 80M and 81M, respectively.
6. None of the sources cited in this post mention that the IAR 80-81 series had automatic prop pitch and radiator controls.

Let me know if you want me to scan the relevant sections of Axworthy's book and send them to you. I know you need proof before you will consider serious changes to an aircraft's FM and armament.

[This message was edited by Bula on Fri March 12 2004 at 10:48 PM.]

03-12-2004, 11:39 PM
Another bug: the IAR80 has a left handed propeller, but it torques as if it had a right handed prop.