PDA

View Full Version : Shield Samurai?



ZenBearV13
06-19-2016, 06:52 AM
Anyone else irritated that they have not only the basic samurai mooks with shields, but also actual "hero" characters (ie target-able, duel-able enemies) in the demo? I know it's not direct historical accuracy, and the Samurai of this world likely have plenty of metal to craft shields, but I don't like it. I would have been happier if shields simply didn't exist in the Samurai faction.

Arashitora
06-19-2016, 06:58 AM
Anyone else irritated that they have not only the basic samurai mooks with shields, but also actual "hero" characters (ie target-able, duel-able enemies) in the demo? I know it's not direct historical accuracy, and the Samurai of this world likely have plenty of metal to craft shields, but I don't like it. I would have been happier if shields simply didn't exist in the Samurai faction.

I agree with you.

waraidako
06-19-2016, 11:39 AM
I can deal with ashigaru (footsoldiers) having shields. After 1000 years of war against vikings and knights it's not a stretch to think they would realise how useful shields can be. But the hero characters and player characters definitely shouldn't have them. Maybe they could do something else that's more thematically appropriate, but still has the same function, although personally I'm not opposed to asymmetry. I would actually probably prefer asymmetrical gameplay. Having them all behave exactly the same and just be different reskins would be a downer.

Eidard
06-19-2016, 12:20 PM
I dont mind samurais with shield as long as every faction has different mechanics for their shield classes.

DerHerbman
06-19-2016, 02:56 PM
They could use double sword style instead of a shield, like a Tanto and a Katana. Or a Sai, or double Sai, a Kusarigama, where the chain works like the shield.... so many options!

Sir_Beefing
06-19-2016, 03:22 PM
Really like the idea of duel wielding swords. I picture it being like how fencers us parrying daggers.

TripleJay_X
06-19-2016, 03:40 PM
double sword sounds good.

a club and a sword..... you can throw the club at one oppoenents face and the sword to stab the other one.....and a leg-kick to the other opponents nuts..... ultra-execution... epic stuff ;)

@sir-beefing. is that fight in your avatar gameplay-stuff, becoming gameplay-stuff?!

MisterWillow
06-19-2016, 07:11 PM
I was pretty surprised to see a Hero samurai with a shield. I agree that dual swords would have been more suitable.

But then, I remember one of the devs saying that there were some elements in singleplayer that were not going to be in multiplayer, so the Shield Samurai might be one of those things.

Sir_Beefing
06-19-2016, 07:31 PM
@sir-beefing. is that fight in your avatar gameplay-stuff, becoming gameplay-stuff?!

I have no idea. The footage was taken from the cinematic story trailer but i would love to see something like it actually in the game. Maybe as a form of quick execution or something

HideoshiKaze.TV
06-20-2016, 12:02 AM
They said this is their own world in the masterclass. Also it's not going to be totally historacally accurate.

BaconBusterYT
06-21-2016, 07:29 PM
I think that target-able shield samurai, as well as the targetable one with a katana and minimal health(basically a discount Oni) are just for the campaign. Think of them like more plentiful, buffed-up foot soldiers disguised as heroes.

MisterWillow
06-21-2016, 08:32 PM
I think that target-able shield samurai, as well as the targetable one with a katana and minimal health(basically a discount Oni) are just for the campaign. Think of them like more plentiful, buffed-up foot soldiers disguised as heroes.

That's what I meant. Thank you for clarifying. :D

Shinkirou_
06-22-2016, 04:48 AM
and the Samurai of this world likely have plenty of metal to craft shields

Actually, the samurai of the For Honor universe seem to have less metal, not more, than their historical counterparts.

Historically, by the 16th century, most samurai armour were made out of steel plates.

However, for some reason, the samurai in For Honor seem to all be using wood to make their armour. And they don't even use lacquer.



Anyhow, about the shields in this game:

The shields seen used by the mooks seem to be based off of Yamato Imperial Soldiers' shields from the Asuka Era and Nara Era (6th-8th century).

These shields did exist but fell out of favour ironically around the time the samurai rose to power.

http://i.imgur.com/Y6eK8Rr.png

So while anachronistic, these shields are not fictional.

It's just weird that the samurai would use equipment from such an ancient era, before they even existed.



The samurai themselves chose to develop their body armour rather than shields.

The large shoulderpads seen on early samurai armour were an attempt to integrate shields into the armour so that the hands could be free.


As samurai armour became heavier and heavier, the need for shields became less and less important.

By the 16th century, samurai warfare became predominantly fought with armoured pikemen, who didn't use shields.

Not to mention the invention of firearms rendered shields completely useless.


Still, while small shields fell out of favour with the Samurai, they used pavises in high numbers:

http://i.imgur.com/7kxTeMF.jpg

Pavises are large deployable shields that were used by front-line Ashigaru. They were separated into light pavises (right) for protection against arrows and heavy bomboo pavises (left) which were musket proof.

The light pavises could actually be held up and used as conventional shields:

http://i.imgur.com/7NaLUq6.png

Here, you can see that both the Hojo troops and the enemy are using their light pavises as conventional shields.

So here we can see that shields were used in the time of the samurai.

However, if For Honor had based their shields off of the ashigaru pavises, rather than the Asuka-Nara period shields, it would have been much more believable.

Cheers.

ZenBearV13
06-22-2016, 05:26 AM
Thanks for the history lesson!

I think you're spot on about the Asuka-Nara Period shields. That makes perfect sense, and given the developers' professed and obviously looseness with regards to historical accuracy, it's a sensible decision.

I don't qualify pavises as shields. That's mobile cover, which a shield arguably is, but the way I define shields for the purposes of this point is something that you can carry with you into melee combat, like we see in the gameplay vids.

Shinkirou_
06-22-2016, 06:14 AM
Agreed.

Even the most mobile pavises are really the old world's equivalent of a ballistic shield and you wouldn't be able to hold one and attack at the same time.

The idea of a melee fighter holding a pavise with one hand is indeed kind of ridiculous unless the character has herculean strength.

I just imagined that if the samurai in the For Honor world would want shields (maybe after seeing vikings or knights use them with efficacy), they would make smaller, more portable versions of their pavises rather than go back to a shield design hundreds of years before their time.

But then again, the Yamato Empire shields did exist in real life whereas one handed pavises do not, hence probably why the devs went with the former.

And there's no practical difference in the makeup of a shield-version of their pavise and the Asuka period shields. Both are rectangular wooden shields.

Altair_Snake
06-22-2016, 10:04 PM
And I think that "hero" won't be in PvP. I'm pretty sure it's just a Viking Hero (shield and sword) with a Samurai skin. It's for variety sake and I like it. There is also a Samurai with the Warden style. It's all good. I wouldn't be surprised to see some Vikings or Knights with Samurai styles in the campaign; Perhaps not the Oni, since it's a very unique style; but that giant dude with rod and that other one with giant sword (adaptable into a halberd) could easily appear in another faction.

TrikRisk
06-22-2016, 10:22 PM
The cinematic trailer shows a guy with a shield and an axe, so they will probably have a shield. Everything else that is on the trailer is on the game (even if its by feats such as an arrow barrage). A shield would be really interesting to have and there existed shields in ancient japan but they were really big so they were used like a wall to defend from arrows. Not only that but at one point in 6th century Japan, foot soldiers used leather shields but they stoped doing it because of a "trend" of having horseman soldiers. Also, this is a fantasy game based on history. I'm really sad no one understands that. People are complaining about the accuracy of history here but don't realise that none of these characters met(at least properly but samurais didnt met at all the vikings). Off course I would like a proper and accurate description of items used back then (types of armor, types of weapons, types of fighting) such as when they were made, why, by whom but we can't have the perfect game. If fantasy meets reality its difficult to highlight fantasy in a corner, reality in another and then also highlight both of these (reality and fantasy) mixed in the middle.

Killerbrian26
06-22-2016, 10:47 PM
I think that I'm fine with the footsoldiers having shields while I'm less so with the sergeants (lesser heroes) having them. However, I think it's a similar case to how in the campaign, one of the Vikings uses a longsword in the same style as a warden, so I think it's just to add diversity in the campaign while it won't show in the multiplayer.

Shinkirou_
06-24-2016, 04:41 PM
Here's another picture of (cheaply reenacted) pre-samurai Yamato soldiers with shields.

These ones bear higher resemblance to the ones in game:

http://i.imgur.com/BqHhoEU.png



There's also these from the Edo period:


http://i.imgur.com/MZiY9Ta.png

http://i.imgur.com/mYHphqq.png

These are shields actually made for samurai.

But, being in the Edo period, they most likely ended up just being novelty items.