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View Full Version : A crying shame, and weird to boot



brilers
05-25-2004, 06:11 AM
I was checking around this morning and saw that the three "big game sites" (IGN, Gamespy, Gamespot) that I visit had their annual "Best of E3" articles up. With all the positive vibes coming from the devs and visitors at E3, and the other press around Revelation, I was shocked at the results - Myst4 was not even mentioned in any of the articles.

At all three sites, "Dreamfall" won best Adventure game, and Myst4 was never mentioned even in the "runners up" - the only runner up on IGN was the next Leisure Suit Larry. Also, Myst4 wasn't mentioned either for any of the graphics or technology awards, despite its "Into the Pixel" award at the show.

I just found it curious how, with all of the positive press around Myst4 - even the most recent review on Gamespy loving it, it was given nary a consideration by any of the bigger gamer sites? What do you think?

[Edit for grammar]

brilers
05-25-2004, 06:11 AM
I was checking around this morning and saw that the three "big game sites" (IGN, Gamespy, Gamespot) that I visit had their annual "Best of E3" articles up. With all the positive vibes coming from the devs and visitors at E3, and the other press around Revelation, I was shocked at the results - Myst4 was not even mentioned in any of the articles.

At all three sites, "Dreamfall" won best Adventure game, and Myst4 was never mentioned even in the "runners up" - the only runner up on IGN was the next Leisure Suit Larry. Also, Myst4 wasn't mentioned either for any of the graphics or technology awards, despite its "Into the Pixel" award at the show.

I just found it curious how, with all of the positive press around Myst4 - even the most recent review on Gamespy loving it, it was given nary a consideration by any of the bigger gamer sites? What do you think?

[Edit for grammar]

maztec
05-25-2004, 06:44 AM
heh, Dreamfall is an action-adventure game. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

They like action.

This gets back to the, "Sorry, Myst isn't a game, it's an interactive slide show."

Not to mention games that won't be around for at least another year seem to always get better press.

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

Eat_My_Shortz
05-25-2004, 07:08 AM
I hate it when people can't classify games correctly. Especially when they classify games where you GO ON AN ADVENTURE (most games!) as "Adventure Games"

An Adventure Game is a Myst-like game. In fact, that's my definition of Adventure game. I consider Myst to be THE benchmark Adv game.

EDIT: BTW the origin of this genre's title comes from the original Adventure game, ADVENT (which was named such due to the 6-character naming restriction on the DEC computer it was built on).
_______________________________________________
The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

brilers
05-25-2004, 08:29 AM
Looks like you were right maztec - I took a closer look at all of the "Adventure" cames that were listed, and all of them that I could tell were categorized as "action-adventure." I'm with EMS in that the definition of "Adventure game" to me is "Myst, or clone thereof." Kind of frustrating that Myst4 didn't even get mentioned in the articles, I think I'll use my overwhelming influence and boycott those three sites on ALL of the computers in my house. That'll show them.

maztec
05-25-2004, 09:21 AM
heh, or you could email them about it and say "Ok, you reviewed action-adventures. What about the adventure games?"

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

Calistoaris
05-25-2004, 10:38 AM
I think we should send them all nice white jackets with extra long arms. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif (hint, hint)

They must be nuts! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif Myst is the reason we have cd-roms. These people are forgetting why all these other games are 'great'. They all took a page (or age) from Myst. I'll bet the people that were at E3 are all into first person shooters and don't care about pulling levers and saving worlds in a calmer gentler fashion. Well, WE CARE!

**ok Ingrid get a hold of yourself and calm down.**

I'm better now.

matt myat
05-25-2004, 06:48 PM
Yeah, I can't believe most articles on E3 etc. don't even mention Revelation, sometimes they have a list of about twenty/thirty games (don't know wether that's accurate, but that was my impression) without a mention of Revelation! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

They're only ignoring the best game of all time! (I'm not overexaggerating am I?) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Srikandi
05-25-2004, 11:15 PM
To be fair, though, both Gamespot and Gamespy have posted M4 previews. So it's not like they're ignoring the game.

I think it should be getting more attention too, but having seen first hand the sensory overload that is E3, I'm not as surprised as I would otherwise be at M4's omission... remembering especially that E3 has handheld and console games as well as PC games, and to the majority of gamers out there it seems that the "big story" at E3 was which of the major consoles would win out. PC games in general are just off a lot of people's radar.

Here (http://www.gamespot.com/e3/index.html) is a list of all the games shown at E3. YOu can see from this that choosing 20 or 30 games to write about is still a small fraction.

Assuming we get a demo this summer, as has been suggested, I think we will get a lot more press at that point, when M4 can be seen without being in competition with every Playstation shooter.

And, like maz said, if there are general gaming sites or forums you regularly visit, YOU CAN HELP by asking for M4 coverage or posting your own comments. If you want to do that, though, remember the Golden Rule: spam not, lest ye be spammed!

Sri's Relto (http://members.cox.net/srikandi/Uru/)

StarScrap
05-25-2004, 11:17 PM
Personally I don't think that Myst games are the definition of adventure. To me an adventure game is any game that 1) involves exploring, and 2) doesn't involve action/"twitch" skills. Action/adventure would be games that only fit the first.

Disclaimer: this is a definition i made up on the spot, it might be a work in progress.

Different does not mean better or worse. It just means NOT THE SAME.

maztec
05-26-2004, 12:21 AM
Right.. Myst has action/twitch skills all over the place...

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Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

matt myat
05-26-2004, 01:57 AM
Myst, not an adventure game??! I admit action/twitch puzzles detract from the atmosphere but surely you can't discard Myst from the genre based on this minor design decision. Besides, what's an Adventure without action?

Action/adventure is a little harsh, how about action/adventure/adventure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

earthangell
05-26-2004, 01:57 AM
but...but... we EXPLORE in the myst games!!!

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

matt myat
05-26-2004, 02:00 AM
I can see this is a little controversial here.

(simultaneous post earthangell - hmmm... who was responding to whom? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Alahmnat
05-26-2004, 03:11 AM
I think you missed Maztec's sarcasm... the only game that could possibly be defined as a Myst game with twitch is Uru.

----------
Guild of Archivists,
D'niPedia Writers Ring (http://www.dpwr.net) (DPWR.NET)
Uru and Myst Forum Moderator / Community Assistant
Please note: I do not respond to Private Topics dealing with technical support or hint requests for the Myst series

brilers
05-26-2004, 06:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Srikandi:
To be fair, though, both Gamespot and Gamespy have posted M4 previews. So it's not like they're ignoring the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wasn't meaning to say that they're not covering Myst 4 in general - I have seen (but not read, avoiding the spoilers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif) the reviews on the sites, I was just questioning why Myst 4 wasn't even listed as a contender in its own category in ANY of the articles - Gamespot's article even had Fahrenheit in the Best Of Adventure category (And a runner-up no less), but if you go to its Gamespace on the Gamespot site, they list it as in the "Action" genre and the "Action Adventure" category.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think it should be getting more attention too, but having seen first hand the sensory overload that is E3, I'm not as surprised as I would otherwise be at M4's omission...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I pretty much accepted the fact that Myst 4 wasn't going to be recognized in any of the show-wide categories, I'm just curious as to why it was left out of its own genre. True, there's alot of choices, but the duty of entertainment sites is to cover it all - when they do a "Best of Adventure" award, I'd expect them to at least take a cursory glance at all of the games listed as "Adventure."

Eat_My_Shortz
05-26-2004, 07:03 AM
This is outrageous. Did the person who wrote this even hear about Revelation?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>GameSpy Article (http://www.gamespy.com/articles/516/516868p24.html)
The cancellation of new versions of Full Throttle and Sam and Max hit adventure gamers pretty hard, and most of what was left at the show -- well -- "budgetware" is the kindest way to describe it. That's why the competition for "Best Adventure Game" was essentially a one game race this year...
(Dreamfall) deserves to be compared to the biggest games on the floor, not the Wal-Mart specials it shares a genre with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firstly, not only did Revelation not win, but it was assumed that all other adventures were total junk. Secondly, they didn't even seem that excited about Dreamfall (read the article). It seems they've given this award because they can't find any better adventure game to give it too.

EDIT: Uhh, btw guys, Revelation was the BANNER HEADING on the Gamespy Website's main page for at least some of the show!

The kindest way to describe Revelation is "budgetware". Who can think of a kind way to say "hire a writer who knows what they're doing?"

_______________________________________________
The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

brilers
05-26-2004, 11:00 AM
Wow, I guess I didn't read the Gamespy article enough. I already sent an email to Gamespot, time to write Gamespy and right the wrongs that have been committed! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

earthangell
05-26-2004, 12:39 PM
hey Matt, my responce was to Starscape.... since we explore in the MYST series, i consider it an adventure!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

matt myat
05-26-2004, 08:46 PM
Your right earthangell, Myst is adventure, there's no doubt about that, but whether it's action is another matter. I figured you weren't responding to me, but I just couldn't help commenting on the simultaneous timing of our posts and the paradoxes it might have arisen and, and... oh, I'm rambling ...

Sorry I didn't catch Maztec's sarcasm (it was sarcasm wasn't it Maz http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) but there have been some annoying twitchy bits (e.g. spinning domes in Riven) though I guess hardly enough to merit it the title of an action game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

mszv
05-26-2004, 09:02 PM
I think Myst Revelation should have won but that doesn't mean I don't like Dreamfall. I think Dreamfall is really interesting, and it's being done by the same person who did The Longest Journey. The Longest Journey is a very well loved adventure game, quite popular, with an interesting story line and a very appealing main character. I'm also not so sure how much "action" is going to be in it, as some of the action is going to be avoidable. Apparently, there will be multiple solutions to puzzle situations in the game, which is a long overdue development in any game (in my opinion). There's a lot I like about Dreamfall, and I'm following it, I want to see what happens. Yeah, I think Myst Revelation should have won, but Dreamfall is a good second choice.

On Myst (the first game in the series), some people classify it more as a puzzle game, than an adventure game. I put it in the adventure game category myself - solving puzzles to advance the story - but I do think the story is pretty light. As for "interactive slide show", well, it's an older game, and you just couldn't get as much movement on the screen as you can today. Not that I don't love Myst, but it's a older technology.

-----------------------------
Regards,
mszv - play as amarez

Put that down, you are not in a game, this is my life!

StarScrap
05-26-2004, 09:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by matt myat:
Myst, not an adventure game??! I admit action/twitch puzzles detract from the atmosphere but surely you can't discard Myst from the genre based on this minor design decision. Besides, what's an Adventure without action?

Action/adventure is a little harsh, how about action/adventure/adventure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me clarify. I did not say that Myst was non-adventure. I simply said Myst was not the DEFINITION of adventure. That is to say, games that deviate from Myst do not necessarily deviate from adventure. Take The Longest Journey as an example. It is not like Myst. By a very, very long shot. But it is still as much an adventure game as Myst is.

So yes, Myst is an adventure game. The very best of the ones I have played. But that doesn't make other games less ADVENTURE.

Different does not mean better or worse. It just means NOT THE SAME.

matt myat
05-26-2004, 09:51 PM
Sorry StarScrap, I see your point, maybe I overreacted a bit (just a teeny bit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) And as you said it was only a definition (and in progress at that!) I think I'll keep to myself for a while *hide's in Ze Pedro's corner*

earthangell
05-26-2004, 10:27 PM
Oh dear, time to break out the heavy artillary!! ladeedah.....tumtetum.....allright, matt, i've got some delicious homemeade rolls, dripping with butter and ooey gooey honey, all to entice you back out of the corner! and for you Starscrap, i've got double chocolate-chip cookies, to make up for misunderstandings!!! oh yeah, and fresh milk!! for eveyone else, warm Banana Bread w/ butter, and vanilla ice cream!! Enjoy!!

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

Calistoaris
05-26-2004, 10:44 PM
Yummy, yummy, yummy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This is bad for my diet.
**voice in back of head** What diet? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Works for me. Pass the banana bread!

Hugs to all!

matt myat
05-27-2004, 03:54 AM
mmmmm... delicious bread angell! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dara100
05-28-2004, 04:53 PM
I've cancelled my subscriptions to several "gaming" magazines because of the short shrift they give to real adventure games. One (Computer Gaming World, which at least does review them) ended a review of Syberia saying that it was ok but nothing ever happened (!?!). Anyone who's played that game will know why I threw the mag across the room in disgust.

At least that reviewer actually played the game. I've read some reviews where I doubted that was the case. Many of them dismissed the game as a "Myst clone" which tells me they may never have even played Myst.

Coronagold
05-29-2004, 03:48 AM
Don't read a mag that's devoted to Action games for a review of Adventure games. Just because Action & Adventure both begin with the letter A, they think they have the sole right to judge Adventure games. They can blow it out their "A"ss. I don't pay attention to their reviews.

http://img36.photobucket.com/albums/v108/sargem/POTS_copy.jpg

StarScrap
05-29-2004, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dara100:
Many of them dismissed the game as a "Myst clone" which tells me they may never have even played Myst.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, I wouldn't consider "Myst clone" a dismissal, but rather high praise. A while ago I went looking for Myst-like games (right after I finished Exile). The closest thing I found was The Longest Journey. Needless to say I was disappointed. So if I saw something dismissed as a Myst clone, it probably wouldn't be too long before I bought it. =P

By the way, appologies accepted. =) Yum!

________________________________________________

Different does not mean better or worse. It just means NOT THE SAME.

Eat_My_Shortz
05-29-2004, 08:12 PM
Let me clarify: when I said Adventure games were Myst clones, of course there are much wider definitions. For example, the original adventure games such as Zork are nothing like Myst (Although even the more recent Zork games have become exactly like Myst).

When I say "Myst is the definition of adventure" its sort of pseudo-sarcasm, basically my way of saying Myst redefined the genre.


Now, in terms of actual definitions, you can't define games based on whether they have action in them. I mean Uru has lots of jumping puzzles, but it cannot be classified as an action game, even if all the puzzles required action. Action games are NOT games with action. Adventure games are NOT games where you go on an adventure. Otherwise almost all games would be action & adventure.

Genres are defined by the overarching style of play. Over the years I have come to realise there are four major genres (not including Sport/Racing games which are a different bottle of eggs entirely):
ADVENTURE
Is games like Myst, which includes "puzzle" games. I wouldn't consider Myst a "puzzle" game - If you've played Dr. Brain series you'll know thats a puzzle game; its just a series of puzzles in a row. So the subgenres of Adventure are: First-Person Adventure (Once again, not because its first person, but because of the styles of puzzle: eg. Myst, Uru, Zork Nemesis/Grand Inquisitor, Schism), Third-Person Adventure (Very different puzzles: eg. Monkey Island, Grim Fandango, Broken Sword - compare Broken Sword III to Uru - they look similar but you'll notice how different the gameplay is.), Text Adventure (Zork I-III, Beyond Zork, Zork Zero, Wonderland, cant think of any but there are millions), Puzzle (Dr. Brain).

OK!!!
ACTION GAMES
This is a very broad heading that has nothing to do with Myst!!! Its subgenres include: First-person shooter (eg. Doom, Half-life, Unreal Tournament), Third-Person shooter (eg. Tomb Raider, all those console games), Platform (deceased genre: eg. Commander Keen, etc)

STRATEGY GAMES
Once again, one could argue Myst has strategy elements, but strategy games are those that involve commanding armies. Real-time strategy (Warcraft, Command & Conquer), Turn-based strategy (Civilisation)

ROLE-PLAYING GAME
Uru has a similar interface to these games (such as character creation) but again, you cannot class Uru as an RPG. eg. Diablo, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights.

sooo my point is just because a game has elements which could be defined as "action" or "strategy" or "adventure" does not categorise them in that genre. Take a game like Diablo II - of course you go on an "adventure" but this does not make it an adventure game.

Now previously to back this up I would have referred you to GameSpy but now I'm not so sure...

_______________________________________________
The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

StarScrap
05-29-2004, 10:40 PM
Any attempt to define games into set categories is either short lived, a work in progress, or a convention (ala stating that current flows in the direction of positive charge).

________________________________________________

Different does not mean better or worse. It just means NOT THE SAME.

matt myat
05-30-2004, 12:17 AM
Great definitions EMS, cleared it up for me! I was starting to doubt my philosophy of life http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Eat_My_Shortz
06-03-2004, 04:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Any attempt to define games into set categories is either short lived, a work in progress, or a convention (ala stating that current flows in the direction of positive charge).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wrong, wrong, RIGHT.
It IS a convention, thats my point. Thats the only reason games ar labeled as such.
But I assure you, what I laid out (in what some may say is excessive detail) above is commonly accepted as the "correct" classification.
And as far as I'm aware, these definitions really haven't changed over the past 15 or so years.

Thats for ur support, matt, as usual!

_______________________________________________
The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

JFT117
06-03-2004, 11:55 AM
It is a shame how Revelations is getting the shrug off...

And Alahmnat, Riven had twich-ery in it... Remember those posts to open to domes?... Before I got the tip to hit repeatedly, it was nearly impossible to do. Riven was such fun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

www.truescape.tk (http://www.truescape.tk)

Srikandi
06-03-2004, 02:43 PM
Game genres, like genres in music, fiction, film, and art more generally, are of course continually in flux, and continually being debated. They are culturally established categories, but since the culture is continually changing it isn't surprising that genre categories are fluid. And more generally, ALL categories imposed by the human mind are "fuzzy": they may have clear centers, but at the edges there will be instances which resist classification. As games become more sophisticated and developers move beyond established cliches, it looks to me like the fuzziness in game genres is increasing -- and that's a good thing, since it means more diversity.

So there's no right or wrong, but I'd agree that EMS's schema represents the way a lot of game writers talk about these things -- with the possible exception of RPGs and the line between them and action games. RPGs crucially involve an increase in the player character's abilities through experience, but so do a lot of "action" games (although in those games the ability increases are more likely to be called "power-ups"), and many RPG purists would add a criterion relating to features such as rich story or player choices that have consequences for the game world. Of course, these features can be found in "adventure" games as well, and RPGs, like many adventures, frequently involve a great deal of exploration.

Sri's Relto (http://members.cox.net/srikandi/Uru/)

matt myat
06-03-2004, 04:53 PM
All I can say is that categories (in small doses) can be helpful. I wouldn't like it if there wasn't some distinction between fruit and vegetables or bread and cake or... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I remember the twitchy domes, I think that had a detrimental effect on me, enough to give the illusion that the Myst games had a bit of twitch (thus explaining my irrational outburst earlier in the thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif)

Eat_My_Shortz
06-09-2004, 09:00 AM
OK I'll partially agree with you Sri about the RPG genre. I'd personally say its your stats, characters, inventory, quests, etc that makes it an RPG, its fairly easy to tell.
(Apologies to the Myst community, but RPG is closest to my heart since I'm an RPG developer. Well it was easier than making an adventure game, OK?)
But there is a fine line in some cases between RPG and Action - take Deus Ex or System Shock series for example.
And the RPG is the most widespread - you've got your plot-out-the battle story-based zillions-of-quests RPGs, like the dungeons and dragons ones by Bioware (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights) and then theres your hack-and-slash less quests more leveling item-based RPGs, like Diablo and its clones (Darkstone, Revenant).
Now as forward-thinking Myst-fans, whos gonna bag me if I say I prefer Diablo?

_______________________________________________
The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!