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Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 10:27 AM
This is mainly directed at the "full real" flyers of IL-2, to explain a little as to why some non cockpit-on flyers MIGHT prefer it.
The MAIN reason I fly with cockpit off is because in ANY flight sim today, you still have major tunnel vision which is NOT realistic at all. Normal human eyes can see roughly 150-180 degrees from side to side!! IL-2 allows for about 60-80 if that. Turning cockpit off for me, helps make up for the loss of peripheral vision in a way, because instead of seeing things in the periphery like you should, at least you see more out the front.
Sure TrackIR helps a bit but STILL doesn't simulate peripheral vision one bit, and very few people have one. So the fewer things obstructing that tunnel vision the better IMO, thus I like cockpit off to somewhat make up for the rest of the visual queues my eyes aren't picking up. Don't get me wrong the cockpits are gorgeous and I love to look at them but I refuse to fly with a far more obstructed view than with them off. To me cockpit on isn't any more realistic than cockpit off as far as what a REAL WWII pilot might see simply for the peripheral reason.
With that said, if the game allowed for even SOME peripheral vision other than out the front and if I had at least a TrackIR to simulate head movement, I would DEFINETELY play with it on.
So until flight sims are simulating peripheral vision in the 3d engine or everyone has multiple monitors, or more likely some sort of virtual reality glasses, all the cockpit on flyers dogging on off'ers need to chill out and let people fly how they want.

[This message was edited by Gr8fighterpilot on Sun March 07 2004 at 08:59 AM.]

Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 10:27 AM
This is mainly directed at the "full real" flyers of IL-2, to explain a little as to why some non cockpit-on flyers MIGHT prefer it.
The MAIN reason I fly with cockpit off is because in ANY flight sim today, you still have major tunnel vision which is NOT realistic at all. Normal human eyes can see roughly 150-180 degrees from side to side!! IL-2 allows for about 60-80 if that. Turning cockpit off for me, helps make up for the loss of peripheral vision in a way, because instead of seeing things in the periphery like you should, at least you see more out the front.
Sure TrackIR helps a bit but STILL doesn't simulate peripheral vision one bit, and very few people have one. So the fewer things obstructing that tunnel vision the better IMO, thus I like cockpit off to somewhat make up for the rest of the visual queues my eyes aren't picking up. Don't get me wrong the cockpits are gorgeous and I love to look at them but I refuse to fly with a far more obstructed view than with them off. To me cockpit on isn't any more realistic than cockpit off as far as what a REAL WWII pilot might see simply for the peripheral reason.
With that said, if the game allowed for even SOME peripheral vision other than out the front and if I had at least a TrackIR to simulate head movement, I would DEFINETELY play with it on.
So until flight sims are simulating peripheral vision in the 3d engine or everyone has multiple monitors, or more likely some sort of virtual reality glasses, all the cockpit on flyers dogging on off'ers need to chill out and let people fly how they want.

[This message was edited by Gr8fighterpilot on Sun March 07 2004 at 08:59 AM.]

Flamin_Squirrel
03-06-2004, 10:39 AM
Exactly how is removing the cockpit increasing you field of view? There are two reasons for having cockpit off - stupidly easy gunnery and the ability to stare though the wings, floor and other parts of your plane. Thats hardly realistic, and you need to improve your gunnery and SA skills if you cant aim or spot planes with cockpit on.

BuzzU
03-06-2004, 10:39 AM
Oh joy. Another cockpit thread. Why do arcade players always have to justify how they play? Nobody really cares.


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GTO_68
03-06-2004, 10:47 AM
The fact is that the view you advocate is even less realistic than cockpit on. What you are really doing is allowing yourself to track and line up targets where your instrument panel would be, not making up for peripheral vision.

Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 10:49 AM
"Exactly how is removing the cockpit imcreasing you field of view?"

I never said it did. I simply said that I like turning cockpit off to "somewhat make up for the rest of the visual queues my eyes aren't picking up."
It's not realistic to COMPLETELY take peripheral vision out of the picture and throw in a cockpit that takes up 60% of your frontal visual field, and think this emulates real WWII dogfighting as far was what you can see is concerned.

"Oh joy. Another cockpit thread. Why do arcade players always have to justify how they play? Nobody really cares"

Only reason I started this thread is because of all the cockpit on/off discussion lately and never seeing peripheral vision being mentioned much.
Why do all the cockpit on flyers rag on cockpit off flyers, answer me that, why do THEY care? It's just a game. If they think that flying with cockpit on is much more realistic than with it off than they are kidding themselves because last time I checked most people have pretty darn good peripheral vision which they aren't factoring in.
Don't get me wrong I admire them for continuing to fly that way and it DOES take a little more skill, but without at least a TrackIR or some kind of peripheral vision in the game, how can it be considered fun or realistic at all?
Again, I'm not saying cockpit off is more realistic because if anything it's less true to life, it just takes some of that tunnel vision effect away for me and I'm sure some other flyers.

[This message was edited by Gr8fighterpilot on Sat March 06 2004 at 10:05 AM.]

KGr.HH-Sunburst
03-06-2004, 10:49 AM
i agree with your post for the most part
although i only fly with pit ON
i just cant stand the WWV for a few reasons
with WWV you cant see your temperatures,your amount of ammo left(LW planes) and a few more important gauges,i know i can switch between pit on and pit off but im just too lazy to do so
and besides i love the outstanding pits in this sim.


i hope that with FB/BoB oleg gives us an option to disable the ctrl F2 enemy few and F6 radar few so we can have IMO the best settings
like Pit on with externals and no icons in that way we can still see the damage on our plane and the beautifull skins we make
without losing the element of surprise

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Recon_609IAP
03-06-2004, 10:57 AM
Thanks for sharing, to each their own.

S!
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Flamin_Squirrel
03-06-2004, 10:58 AM
You still have tunnel vision with cockpit off. You're not making alot of sense.

If you have good situational awareness you dont need peripheral vision. You spot the enemy, point at them and shoot. Dont need to be able to see out the corner of your eye when the enemy is in your gun sight.

BuzzU
03-06-2004, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gr8fighterpilot:
"Exactly how is removing the cockpit imcreasing you field of view?"

I never said it did. I just said it's not realistic to COMPLETELY take peripheral vision out of the picture and throw in a cockpit that takes up 60% of your frontal visual field, and think this emulates real WWII dogfighting as far was what you can see is concerned.
Also I simply said that I like turning cockpit off to "somewhat make up for the rest of the visual queues my eyes aren't picking up."

"Oh joy. Another cockpit thread. Why do arcade players always have to justify how they play? Nobody really cares"

Why do all the cockpit on flyers rag on cockpit off flyers, answer me that, why do THEY care, it's just a game. If they think that flying with cockpit on is much more realistic than with it off than they are kidding themselves because last time I checked most people have pretty darn good peripheral vision which they aren't factoring in.
Don't get me wrong I admire them for continuing to fly that way and it DOES take a little more skill, but without at least a TrackIR or some kind of peripheral vision in the game, how can it be considered fun or realistic at all?
Again, I'm not saying cockpit off is more realistic because if anything it's less true to life, it just takes some of that tunnel vision effect away for me and I'm sure some other flyers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe because you couldn't make a post without calling us elitist. That's the way it's been from the beginning. Frankly I could care less where anybody flys. Both ways have problems with being realistic, and flying in the cockpit may be harder than real life. However, I would rather do something that's a little harder, than way way easier. If you go to the the menu for these settings, you will see it says "Difficulty". It doesn't say realistic settings. Every box you don't check is making the game easier. That's the bottom line. How hard or easy do you want to fly?

I don't like aids in games of any kind. I'm really into race sims, and they all have aids to make then easy to drive. They even have different views you can drive from. One of them is floating behind the car like you're in a helicopter following the car. Is that realistic? Do you drive your car like that? How are flight sims different. In a real simulator that trains real pilots. Are you floating out front of the plane?

Just for the record. I probably have the worst eyesight of anybody playing flight sims. I have completely lost the sight in my right eye, and i'm on my way to losing sight in my left eye too. I'm on SS Disibility because i'm almost blind. Yet, I still fly FB in the hardest settings, because I want it to feel as real as possible. If you or anybody else wants to fly in some phony view. Just do it, and stop whining about it.


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crazyivan1970
03-06-2004, 11:10 AM
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V!
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raaaid
03-06-2004, 11:12 AM
i agree with him no cockpit is more realistic because:
you compensate the lack of peripheral view with the color arrows

it compensates that you cannot rise your head above the control panel or move it right or left dependind the position of the enemy increasing your angle of view(the corners of a car dont really obstacle your view because you move your head what is not possible in fb).

the deflection shots are not possible with the la7 with cockpit on
energy fight is not possible with cockpit on

if you like backstubbing an unaware person i understand you like the cockpit on but if you like to combat face to face you will put it off or demand a more realistic angle of sight being able to rise your head in the cockpit to do deflection shots

Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 11:14 AM
"You still have tunnel vision with cockpit off. You're not making alot of sense."

/Sigh, I never said it took away tunnel vision. I simply said that it "somewhat (in a way) makes up for the rest of the visual queues my eyes aren't picking up without peripheral vision."

"If you have good situational awareness you dont need peripheral vision. You spot the enemy, point at them and shoot. Dont need to be able to see out the corner of your eye when the enemy is in your gun sight."

Than I would say as your aiming and leading your enemy in IL-2 without a TrackIR your top vision of field is also limited by the game, the cockpit and not being able to look slightly upward, so cockpit off helps there as well.

[This message was edited by Gr8fighterpilot on Sat March 06 2004 at 10:56 AM.]

XyZspineZyX
03-06-2004, 11:22 AM
raaid wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>energy fight is not possible with cockpit on<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's entirely possible. What you mean is,

"energy fighting is not possible if you have no skill, and rely on arcade settings to make up the difference."

Everything the cockpit-on posters have said in this thread is true. Wake up and smell the glycol, arcadists: if you're using WonderWoman view, sure you have a *right* to, but stop kidding yourselves, and stop with the excuses: you're just "making things convenient for yourselves". Although admittedly the cockpit view has some limitations, it is going about 400% the wrong way to suggest that "ignoring" the structure of the plane is any kind of realistic substitute. Visibility problems were a fact of life in WWII planes, and any attempt to simulate that is defacto more realistic than just pretending that they weren't.

You will continue to be looked down upon for doing this by pilots who take more of a challenge.

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blabla0001
03-06-2004, 11:23 AM
Who cares what settings you use Gr8fighterpilot.

You just wanted to get into a discussion with the so called "Elitist" here to get a ring out of it.

So you play with cockpit off, big f**king deal.

I don't play with cockpit off, so if that makes me an elitist in your book I would say big f**king deal as well since I never fly on cockpit off servers and nor do I host with cockpit off.

And I think the majority of the so called "Elitist" players here don't play or host with cockpit off either so we "Elitist" players never have to meet you online ever....isn't that just great?

And what you do offline makes no impact on us here what so ever so maybe next time tell your dog or the mail man that you fly with cockpit off, maybe they care.

Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 11:24 AM
"Maybe because you couldn't make a post without calling us elitist."

Sorry for calling you that, but alot of the cockpit on flyers DO come off that way, you have to admit. Thinking cockpit on is anything other than JUST harder to cope with in this game, is silly. It's not true to life for the reasons stated above as well as others I'm sure.

"I would rather do something that's a little harder, than way way easier."

And I totally respect that, it's just don't expect everyone else to be the same, it's a game and they want to have FUN.

"Just for the record. I probably have the worst eyesight of anybody playing flight sims. I have completely lost the sight in my right eye, and i'm on my way to losing sight in my left eye too. I'm on SS Disibility because i'm almost blind. Yet, I still fly FB in the hardest settings, because I want it to feel as real as possible. If you or anybody else wants to fly in some phony view. Just do it, and stop whining about it."

I respect that as well and can imagine it is much harder for you even still. If you want to fly that way great, just don't expect others to necessarily.
Also, nobody's whining, just trying to bring an end to these threads, and show the cockpit on flyers maybe WHY some people don't like it.

Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 11:30 AM
"Who cares what settings you use Gr8fighterpilot."

It wasn't my intention to make people care about how I fly, simply to look at a reason/reasons non cockpit-on flyers may be flying that way, and that peripheral vision hasn't been discussed much.

"You just wanted to get into a discussion with the so called "Elitist" here to get a ring out of it."

Good lord, sorry I ever said the word elitist, I've edited my first post as it was NOT my intention to offend people. Now maybe for some productive discussion?

SeaFireLIV
03-06-2004, 11:30 AM
All I`m doing is reenacting WWII as a fighter pilot. So I like cockpit on. Without it the whole point to me seems lost to me. From my very first ever sim I learnt with cockpit on (but stall/spins off, later I learned to fly with them on). I still maintain that if you`re going to fly a sim based on realistic events you should honour the people of the time by at least flying in cockpit.

SeaFireLIV...

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[This message was edited by SeaFireLIV on Sat March 06 2004 at 11:03 AM.]

Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 11:37 AM
"All I`m doing is reenacting WWII as a fighter pilot. So I like cockpit on. Without it the whole point to me seems lost to me."

And I respect that and am not telling you to do otherwise. All I was trying to do with this thread was give some insight into why cockpit off flyers may like it better. I would love to fly cockpit on for the reasons you stated, but the reasons I stated, ie. in general just NOT being able to see enough, keep my cockpit off.

BuzzU
03-06-2004, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gr8fighterpilot:
"Maybe because you couldn't make a post without calling us elitist."

Sorry for calling you that, but alot of the cockpit on flyers DO come off that way, you have to admit. Thinking cockpit on is anything other than JUST harder to cope with in this game, is silly. It's not true to life for the reasons stated above as well as MANY others I'm sure.

"I would rather do something that's a little harder, than way way easier."

And I totally respect that, it's just don't expect everyone else to be the same, it's a game and they want to have FUN.

"Just for the record. I probably have the worst eyesight of anybody playing flight sims. I have completely lost the sight in my right eye, and i'm on my way to losing sight in my left eye too. I'm on SS Disibility because i'm almost blind. Yet, I still fly FB in the hardest settings, because I want it to feel as real as possible. If you or anybody else wants to fly in some phony view. Just do it, and stop whining about it."

I respect that as well and can imagine it is much harder for you even still. If you want to fly that way great, just don't expect others to necessarily.
Also, nobody's whining, just trying to bring an end to these threads, and show the cockpit on flyers maybe WHY some people don't like it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't care how you fly. I've said that many times. I also know most guys would rather take the easy way, and have fun. FPS shooter games are the most popular games out there. I think that's what most guys want in combat sims too. Jump in a furball, and shoot everything in sight. There's nothing wrong with that. However, there are some of us who like to make the sim as real as possibe. We like to role play that we are really in a war, and we are pilots. That's the beauty of video games. They can take you places you can be in real life. You have to admit if that was your mindset. You could never feel like you're a real WW2 pilot, and not fly in the cockpit. It's all what you want from the sim. Do you want to role play, or do you just want to shoot stuff?

btw..Just for the record. I've been on this forum since the beginning of IL2. I have seen hundreds of cockpit threads. They never do any good, and just end up in flame wars. The best way to make the cockpit issue go away, is to stop talking about it.


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Buzz
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Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 11:45 AM
"We like to role play that we are really in a war, and we are pilots. That's the beauty of video games. They can take you places you can be in real life. You have to admit if that was your mindset. You could never feel like you're a real WW2 pilot, and not fly in the cockpit."

I completely agree, that is the beauty of video games, or as I like to call them as they become more and more realistic, interactive entertainment. I would LOVE to feel like I was a WW2 pilot and I agree that the cockpit completely helps out in that department.
It's just that games have such a ways to go to really PUT you in a fantasy role, they lack realism for many reasons, one I stated above which will go away as soon as virtual reality headsets/glasses become reality, but to me JUST having that cockpit to put me in the role of fighter pilot is negated by the things that take you OUT of that role. Thus I settle for and enjoy cockpit off for now.

The_Red_Spoon
03-06-2004, 11:54 AM
It will only go away when people stop telling other people that their preferred settings are the only way to play the game (i.e. inherently superior/realistic etc.)

For me, the only 'no way' options are unlimited ammo, unrealistic guns/ballistics, those stupid red/blue arrows on some views, and the ability to ID aircraft that are dozens of miles away.

Unfortunately, most servers seem to offer a choice of Full Real or Anything Goes; my beef with the FR crowd is that they won't budge an inch from their preferred settings to let people like myself join in (and I hate their assumption that anyone who uses externals or whatever are effectively cheating; if these people are as unskilled as they are supposed to be, then giving them a little more vision isn't going to turn them into uberpilots).

I fly with cockpit on, but I see no reason why other who find that too difficult should be prevented from switching it off (they aren't all score*****s...)

S 8
03-06-2004, 11:57 AM
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TooCooL34
03-06-2004, 12:02 PM
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BuzzU
03-06-2004, 12:05 PM
Keep in mind that any restrictions you have in the cockpit the other guys has too. So, it all works out even, except that you feel like you're really flying a plane. Besides the cockpits are beautiful. How can you stand not to see them. I love checking all my gauges as I fly to and from the fight.

If you would fly in the cockpit for awhile you'd see it becomes easier. It will feel terrible at first. It's like flying locked in the closet, but it does feel natural in time. You learn to roll the plane a lttle to see out the sides. You can fly just as good looking out the back as you do looking forward. You do slow rolls to see under you, or even fly inverted to see. That's why I like planes with a good roll rate. It's mush easier to look around,and when a plane goes under you, it's easy to just roll inverted to take a shot at them. The cockpit is not that hard if you just give it a chance. When you start getting kills in the cockpit it feels so much better than no cockpit. I tried no cockpit at first, and used my poor eyesight as an excuse. To be honest I almost gave up flight sims, because it just felt like Air Quake. I had to make a change, so i clicked every box in the difficulty menu, and forced myself to get used to it. I love it now, and could never go back to east settings.


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Flamin_Squirrel
03-06-2004, 12:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gr8fighterpilot:

Than I would say as your aiming and leading your enemy in IL-2 without a TrackIR your top vision of field is also limited by the game, the cockpit and not being able to look slightly upward, so cockpit off helps there as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So how is hving cockpit off helping you look upwards? It doesnt. The frame might get in the way, but so would it in the real plane. Fly how you want, but stop trying to justify your easy settings.

Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 12:18 PM
"Besides the cockpits are beautiful. How can you stand not to see them. I love checking all my gauges as I fly to and from the fight."

I agree they are gorgeous, but me not having a tracker makes "checking all my gauges" or anything else for that matter VERY awkward. Think hatswitch, yuck.

"If you would fly in the cockpit for awhile you'd see it becomes easier. It will feel terrible at first. It's like flying locked in the closet, but it does feel natural in time."

I admire flyers who fly in this unrealistically difficult manner because it's just that, difficult, but that locked in closet no peripheral vision feeling is what I can't get over, and in a way refuse to accept, I don't think it would ever feel natural to me. Not that cockpit off does either, feels less realistic ultimately, but at least I can see MORE. I will just wait until sims can simulate real head movement and peripheral vision before I get really serious about realism.
**Patiently waits for virtual reality headset**

"So how is hving cockpit off helping you look upwards? It doesnt. The frame might get in the way, but so would it in the real plane."

Without a TrackIR device, both on and off are limiting and unrealistic because in real life you would glance slightly upward while leading a target, but cockpit on is more limiting because of the frame yes.
In this case it's trying to make up for the LACK of head movement by showing a little more without the cockpit, that's all.

"Fly how you want, but stop trying to justify your easy settings."

I'll justify my "easy" settings all I want if they're justifiable, which they are.

[This message was edited by Gr8fighterpilot on Sat March 06 2004 at 11:26 AM.]

jenikovtaw
03-06-2004, 12:20 PM
I thought this was a long dead discussion, but seems that its not! Interesting to read through for the 20th time.

BuzzU
03-06-2004, 12:28 PM
Hate to tell you, but a virtual reality headset is going to be a lot more money than TrackIR. Which you can have now.


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Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
03-06-2004, 12:32 PM
The Red Spoon wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It (the cockpit controversy) will only go away when people stop telling other people that their preferred settings are the only way to play the game (i.e. inherently superior/realistic etc.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We don't say that our preferred settings are the ONLY way to play the sim. That's patently untrue, as the legions of WonderWomen pilots attest to.

We are saying that it's a BETTER way to approach playing the sim. We have history, physics, etc. on our side. All the WonderWomen have is their "personal preference" and "comfort level". All very self-serving, and typical of the arcadist approach to everything. Avoid challenge. Take the easy way. Exploit cheats and "holes in the programming".

For instance, there's no way you can say that no cockpit settings are in any way "more realistic", can you? No, because you're "pretending" there's no cockpit or wings or fuselage there; you're "pretending" that visuals were not an issue at all with these aircraft. No cockpit IS, inherently, a superior SIMULATION. If all this is is a game (another classic arcadist cop-out and excuse for whatever wimpout setting they want to use), then you can justify anything, really. But it's not; it's a SIMULATION...one that happens to be able to be played as a pure game. We all know why that is: money.

AnalFissure
03-06-2004, 12:45 PM
I used to fly cockpit on exclusively, but have become a bit disenchanted with it as of late.

My main reasons are:
In this sim we have no binocular vision, making cockpit frames unrealistically obtrusive.

In this sim we can't move our heads. We are anchored to one small point in space without the ability to move our heads side to side, or even up and down to see over the noses of our aircraft somewhat. This is the most unrealistic aspect of our virtual cockpits, in my opinion.

In this sim, some planes have very obtrusive alpha textures used for canopy glass and/or gunsights.

In this sim I sometimes run into performance issues when using the cockpit. This point however, is probably more due to the fact that I have a less than stellar machine.

It's a shame to me, because every single pit int he game is a work of art, and I love the feeling of immersion when using them.

Anyway,until those issues have been resolved (lack of stereo vision, and head movement being the two main ones) I say fly in whatever mode you prefer.

horseback
03-06-2004, 01:00 PM
gr8t, I'm with you in general. I play offline, and if the AI can see through clouds, their own airplanes and mountains, then by God, I should at least be able to see the bastages through my own airplane, especially when it seems to me that the first place every aircraft in my normal field of view hides is behind my canopy framing.

However, I also spend as much time as possible with the cockpit on, especially when I fire, because I'm convinced that my target's Damage Model becomes at least 25% more vulnerable when I do. Call me superstitious, but it seems to work.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 01:01 PM
"Hate to tell you, but a virtual reality headset is going to be a lot more money than TrackIR. Which you can have now."

Doesn't have to be an expensive VR set, could just be a set of glasses with 2 (preferable many that create a WIDE field of view) tiny lcd screens, and when you move your head their field of view changes realistically. Lcd tech is coming down in price GREATLY as we speak.

"We are saying that it's a BETTER way to approach playing the sim."

Don't you get it that MOST of the cockpit off people would LOVE to fly in the cockpit but aren't as die hard as some to look past the ADDITIONAL limitations of flying this way?

"For instance, there's no way you can say that no cockpit settings are in any way "more realistic", can you?"

Nobody is saying that, cockpit on is clearly MORE realistic than off, it's just that within the limitations of technology and this sim, turning it on just takes those limitations over the edge for alot of people.

"Anyway,until those issues have been resolved (lack of stereo vision, and head movement being the two main ones) I say fly in whatever mode you prefer."

My sentiments EXACTLY.

darkhorizon11
03-06-2004, 01:05 PM
Ugh. Thats all this forum needs. More excuses.

Remember son.
Losers b!tch and complain about how they tried their best.
Winners go home and F#CK the prom queen.
-Sean Connery

Lewallen8579
03-06-2004, 01:10 PM
First, the lack of tolerance and maturity on this board is astonishing. Please learn to have some respect for other people's views. Second, I also fly with no cockpit, and I agree with most of Gr8fighterpilot's points.

I recently tried switching to full cockpit view and finally gave up on it for a number of reasons.

First, there's no way to adjust the default view angle or zoom so I can have the necessary instruments (in my case, that would be the speed and artificial horizon) in view when looking forward. I can tweak it with the mouse, but then I lose it as soon as I padlock or pan the view and I have to readjust it when I recenter.

Second, there's no way to simply tilt my head when an enemy flies behind my canopy bars, instead I have to maneuver my entire plane. This is especially noticable in a lag pursuit situation and the enemy plane gets concealed behind the front top canopy framing, making it impossible to see if he makes a sudden turn. A pilot in a real plane would be able to move his head to see around the canopy bars. There was some discussion a while ago about whether the canopy bars should be made 50% transparent; this sounds like an excellent compromise to me.

Third, I don't have a TrackIR yet. I am planning on getting one when I can, but a hundred bucks is a little much at the moment. When I do get one, I'll definately give the cockpit view another try; I like the authentic feeling the cockpits give this game as much as anyone, but I'm not convinced, given all the other realism differences between this *game* and Real Life (no feeling of G forces, greatly restricted field of view, etc.), that "wonder woman view" is so bad in comparison.

Puts me in mind of a quote I read on another board:

"Those who insist on absolute realism [in wargames] should play with the firm understanding that the loser will be shot."
-Richard Berg

~Sam

--
If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties.
-Francis Bacon

Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 01:10 PM
^I agree with your points.
I also wish I had a trackIR just to at least take the lack of natural head movement mostly out of the equation, but can't afford it as of now.

"Ugh. Thats all this forum needs. More excuses.

Remember son.
Losers b!tch and complain about how they tried their best.
Winners go home and F#CK the prom queen."

That's all this forum needs, people who don't contribute anything real or useful to the topics.

XyZspineZyX
03-06-2004, 01:35 PM
Lewallen said,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>First, there's no way to adjust the default view angle or zoom so I can have the necessary instruments (in my case, that would be the speed and artificial horizon) in view when looking forward.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This, m'boy, is what Speedbar is for. It puts speed, heading and alt in one easily readable position, and is a good simulation of how a pilot familiar with an aircraft can "scan" the control panel with a very short glance and return his attention to what's happening outside his cockpit.

Then, Lewallen said,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Second, there's no way to simply tilt my head when an enemy flies behind my canopy bars, instead I have to maneuver my entire plane. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's patently false. Your hat switch allows you to pan and follow planes all around you, with the usual exception of 6:00, where you can't see at all. A quick bank, or even a slip (rudder to one side) will usually "move" an enemy out from behind a canopy bar, and his own continued movement will usually solve the problem inside two seconds anyway. Combat is very fluid and mobile, and a con doesn't tend to "stay" behind any obstruction for long. Knowing where he's likely going and what his intentions are, that's down to one's Situational Awareness; and a rookie can have a perfect view of a plane maneuvering and still not "see" what's happening until it's too late.

This has less to do with "momentary" visual problems than it has to do with an overall underdeveloped Situational Awareness.

J30Vader
03-06-2004, 01:39 PM
Why I fly with the pit off......

Because I want too.

That is all the explaination I need to offer.
I don't have to justify it to anyone.

Never explain. Your friends will not need one. Your enemies will never accept one.

SeaFireLIV
03-06-2004, 01:47 PM
I don`t often agree with Stiglr, but i`m 100% behind him on this one. But all to their own...

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/libhawker.jpg
In his excitement to get Ordnance info for Oleg, Hawker made a bit of a mess at the local Library....

The_Red_Spoon
03-06-2004, 02:38 PM
My take on the full real versus whatever controversy has nothing to do with realism; I just prefer to fly against people who can put up a decent fight using the flying aids instead of turning casual players into sitting ducks by forcing them to use my settings.

I rarely get the time to play online, and sometimes I don't want to commit in a big way when I do; that is why I have nothing against people using reasonable flying aids to enjoy the game. You think such people are 'arcadists' and 'wimpouts', whereas I just want anyone who flies online to have fun.

BM357_Raven
03-06-2004, 05:22 PM
The whole full screen thing dates back to the very earliest simming days-- I didnt think about it much until the days of CFS, however.

I'm not going to argue the playability of CFS in cockpit, but I will readily tell anyone that, back then, I couldnt see how I could be competitive from within the cockpit when most everyone else played out of cockpit. So I just went with the flow...In retrospect, I know I could have flown in cockpit..

I always thought it was a mistake on MS's part for not making "cockpit-ON" a setting that the host could select as a form of gameplay (one that required pilots to fly that way)..

Anyhow....I think as more and more pilots come around, we will begin to see less and less people standing tall on the no-cockpit side of the debate in FB... Mmmmm. I dunno, I'm probably wrong about that, we'll see.

But I think a large sector of the 'no-cockpit' population has lineage that begins somewhere in CFS. And the common understanding among pilots in CFS, was/is that flying in the cockpit is problematic and since there was no way to Lock people in their cockpit, there was no use in arguing. Still there were a few people who would fly by honor in NOFUN games...remember?

So now, with IL2, there is finally a 'cockpit-only' setting. And suddenly, we can see who flies in cockpit and who does not. And so the argument evolves; cockpit vs no cockpit.

As more CFS-er's pile in, be prepared to see them high and mighty against the cockpit pilots (this is why I questioned my reasoning above).. Many of them will resist because it will go against everything they know.

Others will find cockpit flying irritating and find reasons that their form of flying is justified and 'more real' (beyond simple preferences) and demand to be treated as vfp's who are equally skilled.

The cockpit population will continue to deem their way superior and more realistic as well. As they preface their beliefs, the no-cockpit crowd will feel insulted or find a need to defend their way of flying and sometimes lash out and call the no-cockpit-er's elitist our pompous. Back and forth it will go...

It's interesting, or perhaps even pathetic how seriously we take ourselves in these forums. And to anyone who agrees with that, let it be known that I am one of the most pathetic because I eat, breath, and think about this sim all the time...

Nonetheless, it is a reality. Our ego's, our outlooks, our desire to be right and to justify 'my way', all play themselves out as traights always do...regardless of the subject or situation.

We take it personally when someone voices that our methods are bogus or below par... I undestand how it is.. I am certain I get that way too..

The truth is that you *should* fly your own way, have should have your own opinions about it, you should voice your ideas, but just remember that some of us have already mastered the Full Screen method and then moved on.

And now we are proficient with the cockpit method. We *were* proficient with full screen/HUD and *now* we are proficient with cockpit mode. And when you are PROFICIENT with BOTH, I believe then, you will have more credibility in this argument.

We could probably even take it further to say that the WWII fighter pilot, who has also flown HUD and Cockpit and become proficient with all three would be the master of the topic. Do we have one of those?

My point is, that although we can debate all day what is really more real (and my biased oppinion is that MY method, ie. Full Switch, is the most real), I find that I read people who make statements about tunnel vision (something that I still dont full grasp--cause I dont see tunnel vision when I look at the screen..I do see 'simulated periphery), or how P/L is more real, or how full screen is more this or that...but I dont really believe these people have any vested time in cockpit our without padlock...

What kind of vested time is justifiable? I dunno.. Maybe a month or two.. That's how long it took my to become at least quazi-proficient.

And that's the real thing. The learning curve to achieve only moderate proficiency is so damn long... Well I can see why anyone would be turned off by that. It's a long, hard, frustrating and boring road that one must travel to become proficient with Full Switch.. Why do that when you can just climb in and get your immediate fix and be in bed by 11 or twelve?? It makes sense to me..I'm just different, I guess. Not better..Maybe even just more pathetic..

But there is no one in these forums who could ever convince me that Full Switch is anything but a more realistic simulation of what WWII pilots experienced --- except, perhaps, a real WWII fighter pilot who has mastered all levels of FB simulated action.

I am one of the few people from the the Full Switch Camp.. In terms of a popularity contest, I lose big time. But to those who fly with P/L and speedbar, I've been down that road as well. If I can do it, then anyone can do it. Same with cockpit, same with mouse-trick, hat-switch.., you name it.

Is Full Switch fun? Hell YES! Is it more realistic? Sorry guys, you already know my mind there..

My whole squad struggled with it and guess what...We made it. So can your squad.. Just gotta put your minds to it...Anyhow, again, to each his own...

Do what you want, have fun, defend your ideals and your opinions.. This debate will live on.. And that is that...

S~

http://bm357.com/bm357_radar_test_rgr.gif

Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Video (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/Downloads_Public/bm357_transmission.zip)
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SeaFireLIV
03-06-2004, 05:34 PM
I like your radar thing. Just like when i`m flying with our squad:
Leader: "Let`s form up, chaps."

Rest of us: "Rgr."

Leader: "Come on let`s get it together, boys."

Rest of us: "Rgr, Rgr, Rgr."

Leader: "GAAAH! WHAT`S THE MATTER WITH YOU LOT! FORM UP!!!"

Rest of us: "er- Rgr!"

LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/libhawker.jpg
In his excitement to get Ordnance info for Oleg, Hawker made a bit of a mess at the local Library....

huggy87
03-06-2004, 05:40 PM
I prefer flying with the cockpit off. I wish I was good enough to fly the sim with the cockpit on. I find the hat switch moves your head to slowly and I don't like taking my hand off of the controls to move my mouse/head around.

If this makes me an IL2 wimp, so be it. I have 900 hours in FA-18s and if I cared to look back through my logbook I have probably been in 2-300 dogfights. We are constantly moving our heads around (quickly) and contorting our bodies to look behind us. Funny story, one of my friends actually got his head stuck between the headrest and canopy while looking backwards. All fighter pilots eventually learn to fight while padlocked on their opponent, but we have so many periphary cues (ie. horizon) that it is not as hard as this game.

If anybody has any good pointers for increasing SA and configuring a better way to fight and look around in this game please lay it on me.

Huggy

Gr8fighterpilot
03-06-2004, 06:00 PM
^It's good to hear from a real pilot how you feel on this issue and about the game in general.

"All fighter pilots eventually learn to fight while padlocked on their opponent, but we have so many periphary cues (ie. horizon) that it is not as hard as this game."

That's interesting to know, even though I've never flown a real plane I figured this was true (about the large amounts of periphery cues).
If it's in your budget you should consider buying a TrackIR2 device, supposedely it helps greatly for tracking with your head movements. I want one myself but I will have to wait a couple months as it's over $100.

XyZspineZyX
03-06-2004, 08:02 PM
Huggy, if you're a real F-18 jock, I'd say you are the direct beneficiary of many years of aerodynamic design between 1940s and when the Hornet first appeared on the scene.

Now, bubble canopies are the norm, and the cockpits also tend to sit up and above the body of the aircraft, whereas before they tended to be "cut into" the body of the craft.

Visibility WAS an issue (and still is). The history books are full of anecdote after anecdote where (*ahem* long before one had a radar picking up contacts from 40 miles away and an AWACs plane feeding one's computer same from even farther) it was a challenge seeing out of certain airframes. The 109s were known for their claustrophobic cabins; P-51s were loved for their much better view.

The no-cockpit people have a good point about the limitations of the canopy view and the lack of any "binocular vision" effects. It is a bit harder than real life, admittedly.

But, pretending no obstruction exists is going well too far the other way. That's hard to argue with... especially with people chiming in with their "preferences" and "comfort zones". Well, I'd *prefer* to make 10 kills every sortie and always see the enemy first, but it doesn't work that way. Visuals are part of the challenge, and if your heart's in the right place about simulation, you know it's something to deal with..it's just part of the challenge, just like proper maneuvering, pulling lead, or whatever else.

DONB3397
03-06-2004, 08:23 PM
Looks like another circular debate. Positions are known from a dozen threads now:

Position 1: Real pilots fly full real...ONLY!
Position 2: Do what you want...but NOT on my server.
Position 3: What's a server?

New one here. "I'll fly full real...when I can turn full round (in the virtual cockpit)

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCax_RABQv__LZQo
There is no 'way' of winning;
There is only Winning!

Slammin_
03-06-2004, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Huggy, if you're a real F-18 jock,.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is why I think you need to take a chill pill.

Back off dude and just let folks 'talk', OK?

Lewallen8579
03-06-2004, 09:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Lewallen said,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>First, there's no way to adjust the default view angle or zoom so I can have the necessary instruments (in my case, that would be the speed and artificial horizon) in view when looking forward.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This, m'boy, is what Speedbar is for. It puts speed, heading and alt in one easily readable position, and is a good simulation of how a pilot familiar with an aircraft can "scan" the control panel with a very short glance and return his attention to what's happening outside his cockpit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please note that I said, "...and artificial horizon", a very handy one of which appears in the no-cockpit view. With the speedbar, I can't include the artificial horizon in my scan, and without a TrackIR, it's difficult to pan back to the front to look at the instruments and then back to keep track of the enemy all while maneuvering.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Then, Lewallen said,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Second, there's no way to simply tilt my head when an enemy flies behind my canopy bars, instead I have to maneuver my entire plane. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's patently false. Your hat switch allows you to pan and follow planes all around you, with the usual exception of 6:00, where you can't see at all. A quick bank, or even a slip (rudder to one side) will usually "move" an enemy out from behind a canopy bar, and his own continued movement will usually solve the problem inside two seconds anyway. Combat is very fluid and mobile, and a con doesn't tend to "stay" behind any obstruction for long. Knowing where he's likely going and what his intentions are, that's down to one's Situational Awareness; and a rookie can have a perfect view of a plane maneuvering and still not "see" what's happening until it's too late.

This has less to do with "momentary" visual problems than it has to do with an overall underdeveloped Situational Awareness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Careful what you call "patently false" there. I am referring to the ability to move my neck in the game in more than one dimension, which is currently not possible to do. I cannot, for instance, tilt my head to the side or crane my neck to see around the canopy bars.

SA is, obviously, a very important part of aerial combat, but without a way to look around quickly and accurately from inside the cockpit, it's much more difficult to achieve. Combat is not always very fluid, and fairly often I find that the best angle to follow the enemy through his turn at happens to be the angle that puts him smack behind the canopy bars. I can jiggle the FOV settings and pan around and usually find a decent view, but it's not nearly as quick and easy as simply moving my head.

~Sam

--
If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties.
-Francis Bacon

XyZspineZyX
03-06-2004, 11:03 PM
Lewallen wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>without a TrackIR, it's difficult to pan back to the front to look at the instruments and then back to keep track of the enemy all while maneuvering.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why you use the pan/snap views. They automatically return your view to the front, as is natural with human physiology, when you release the hat switch. The "nudge" views are worthless, because you have to "work" as hard to recover from a view as to get to a view.

also, unless it's at night, or really foul weather, or in clouds, you don't likely need an artificial horizon that much. Keeping an eye on a bogie takes precedence most of the time.

arcadeace
03-06-2004, 11:08 PM
I'm real. I know what a game/sim is. And I'm glad the pretend jocks here are nothing like the real men and pilots chosen who won our freedom, so boys can be ace meatheads in this 21st century. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167658.jpg

Lewallen8579
03-07-2004, 12:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Lewallen wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>without a TrackIR, it's difficult to pan back to the front to look at the instruments and then back to keep track of the enemy all while maneuvering.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why you use the pan/snap views. They automatically return your view to the front, as is natural with human physiology, when you release the hat switch. The "nudge" views are worthless, because you have to "work" as hard to recover from a view as to get to a view.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tried snap views tonight, and though better, they were not a substitute for the ease of head movement. The problem is that with snap views, my right hand is now trying to control four axes. I could put it on my keyboard though that will take some rearranging. I'm starting to heavily consider one of the freeware programs that work with a regular webcam. Can anyone recommend a good one from personal experience?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
also, unless it's at night, or really foul weather, or in clouds, you don't likely need an artificial horizon that much. Keeping an eye on a bogie takes precedence most of the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is where I notice the lack of peripheral vision the most. The default view in IL-2 is 70 degrees, the wide is 90. Just doing some tests in my chair here, I find I can see something in my peripheral vision without moving my eyes that is a bit more than 90 degrees to either side. If I move my eyes only, I can see at least 135 degrees behind me on either side. When in real life, this large area that is everything you are not looking at at the moment carries cues about physical orientation. Of the at most 90 degrees the game gives, on my desk my monitor takes up about 30 degrees or so. This problem can only be partially addressed by sitting close to the monitor. And I can, in real life, very quickly swivel my eyes to get cues about orientation, not so in the game.

If the TrackIR is sufficiently responsive (or someone can recommend a good free one, I'll go out tomorrow and get a new webcam if necessary) it could pretty well fix this problem once you get used to moving your head instead of your eyes.

~Sam

--
If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties.
-Francis Bacon

corvair66
03-07-2004, 01:07 AM
People write:

You will continue to be looked down upon for
doing this by pilots who take more of a
challenge.
and
If you or anybody else wants to fly in some
phony view. Just do it, and stop whining
about it.
and
I still maintain that if you`re going to fly
a sim based on realistic events you should
honour the people of the time by at least
flying in cockpit.
and
You could never feel like you're a real WW2
pilot, and not fly in the cockpit.

You guys are kidding, right?! I mean, come on, we sit in front of freakin' 17" monitors, in our homes, wearing our jammies, drinking beer, and experiencing absolutely none of the total assault on our senses that a fighter plane must provide.

Full real? Get real!

pinche_bolillo
03-07-2004, 04:22 AM
I play this game under any and all conditions, full real and wonder woman view. I find full real servers to be easier than cockpit off and externals permitted. the reasons for this opinion are

cockpit on makes bnz much harder
cockpit on means you can sneak up on guys
cockpit on my gunnery improves 2x
cockpit on means a lot of turn fights. I always do better in tnb vs bnz cause I think tnb is a lot easier
cockpit on and no externals means I can fly a/c that do not turn as well as the other guy and stand a resonable chance of either getting him or evading him.

cockpit off w/icons means it is nearly impossible to sneak up on a guy.
cockpit off gunnery is much harder because the enemy is alerted and usually turning very hard.


so I personally find full real to be a lot easier than icons, externals, and wonder woman

NorrisMcWhirter
03-07-2004, 04:54 AM
Hi,

There really is no point mentioning this - the sides are too entrenched.

They call you 'arcade' fliers and then complain when you call them 'elitist'.

They call you 'elitist' fliers then complain when you call them 'arcade'

The cacophony of name-calling moronocy never ends! It's become so bad that even I, aloof as I am, have been involved - my apologies.

Just to improve my SA, I've begun to drive my
car wearing blinkers and with a large piece of cardboard blu tacked across the lower half of my windscreen just to make things unrealistically more difficult for me.

I've seen no improvement yet but maybe if I didn't fly after being down the pub then that would be a start.

Having said that, it's even more amusing for someone like me, who flies both, to watch this debating debacle go on...and on...and on....and on...and on. Maybe Duracell could base a new ad campaign on these threads?


Cheers,
Norris

PS: On a more serious note, the thread instigator has a point; it simply is not realistic with the cockpit on just as it is not realistic with the cockpit off as there is no peripheral vision.

I learned to fly "cockpit ON" with things like Psion Flight Simulator/Digital Integration Fighter Pilot on the 48K Spectrum (then again, you had no option to turn it off or increase the frame rate past 1 per hour) and the visual limitations are the same now as they were back in 1982.

No peripheral vision.

*Same as 1982* - think about that.

In fact, it probably goes back further than 1982 but that is for another day.

PPS:

The previous guy has made a real point and I concur with him.... mostly. I'd say:

Cockpit ON:

Gunnery is easier with cockpit on because you can sneak up much closer without the enemy moving about.

BNZ is more difficult with cockpit on if you mess the approach attitude up.

Cockpit OFF:
Gunnery is easier with cockpit off because blind deflection shots, for targets under the nose are not required.

Attack is harder with cockpit off due to the lack of element of surprise - this favours the TNB brigade as they pull 58 G turns when you bnz them.

Arrows over-modelling 'peripheral vision' make BNZ harder because most people know that someone is on their way.

Possible solutions?

Arrows should only activate when the enemy is within the peripheral visual cone...and that includes you turning your head.

Arrows simulating peripheral vision should turn off for blind spots within the cone (e.g. blocking like for that stupid armour plate in the G2).

Arrows should be optional for cockpit on with the peripheral vision mode employed.

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/

[This message was edited by NorrisMcWhirter on Sun March 07 2004 at 04:04 AM.]

The_Red_Spoon
03-07-2004, 05:44 AM
There is a vicious cycle going on with elitist/arcade thing.

I fly with Cockpit On settings nearly all of the time (sometimes I switch it off when I'm not flying 'seriously'), but I have never felt it necessary to insult anyone who prefers to fly with the cockpit off (which can increase the frame rate, btw).

Noone would accuse full real players of being elitist if they didn't hurl insults at everyone and waffle on about the philosophy of simulation etc.

Dnmy
03-07-2004, 07:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
PS: On a more serious note, the thread instigator has a point; it simply is not realistic with the cockpit on just as it is not realistic with the cockpit off as there is no peripheral vision.

I learned to fly "cockpit ON" with things like Psion Flight Simulator/Digital Integration Fighter Pilot on the 48K Spectrum (then again, you had no option to turn it off or increase the frame rate past 1 per hour) and the visual limitations are the same now as they were back in 1982.

No peripheral vision.

*Same as 1982* - think about that.

In fact, it probably goes back further than 1982 but that is for another day.

PPS:

The previous guy has made a real point and I concur with him.... mostly. I'd say:

Cockpit ON:

Gunnery is easier with cockpit on because you can sneak up much closer without the enemy moving about.

BNZ is more difficult with cockpit on if you mess the approach attitude up.

Cockpit OFF:
Gunnery is easier with cockpit off because blind deflection shots, for targets under the nose are not required.

Attack is harder with cockpit off due to the lack of element of surprise - this favours the TNB brigade as they pull 58 G turns when you bnz them.

Arrows over-modelling 'peripheral vision' make BNZ harder because most people know that someone is on their way.

Possible solutions?

Arrows should only activate when the enemy is within the peripheral visual cone...and that includes you turning your head.

Arrows simulating peripheral vision should turn off for blind spots within the cone (e.g. blocking like for that stupid armour plate in the G2).

Arrows should be optional for cockpit on with the peripheral vision mode employed.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree 100%.

Cockpit off is definitely too revealing. Cockpit on reveals too less of the complete picture that a pilot has.

A golden middle way exists, but that has to be modelled. The game must then be adapted to provide for wider field of views and peripheral vision. Plus a decent padlock system. Then we can ALL play from within the cockpit, without fumbling with hatswitches and the like too much.

My preference lies with FR and speedbar, but at the same time i realize that these settings don't provide the most realistic picture. Thing is that i've played all my sims from within the cockpit for many years now and have long gotten used to it. I would appreciate very much a more realistic picture from WITHIN the cockpit, with the cockpit graphics. The golden middle way so to speak.

i'll keep playing with cockpit on though because cockpit off feels like playing a space sim. Far removed from a ww2 sim with a large planeset where every other plane has a different cockpit. The historical differences are what makes this sim interesting.

Without the cockpits it's one generic cockpit fits all. That's treading on thin ice. Almost like one generic FM/DM fits all. If the differences between the planes are equalized then there is no point in having a large planeset either.

JG6_Oddball
03-07-2004, 09:26 AM
prices are coming down...very cool site
http://www.vrealities.com/igsvga.html

XyZspineZyX
03-07-2004, 11:22 AM
I am incredulous that somebody flying with cockpit off, and all the ridiculous visual advantages that entails, still NEEDS arrows to point him to the enemy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

If you need this many crutches to fly, get some lessons from someone who can help you, or for God's sake, give up and go back to Quake.

XyZspineZyX
03-07-2004, 11:31 AM
Lewallen, all you need to master a hat is 'practice'. It is NOT rocket science, nor is it some "ancient Chinese secret" kind of martial art. It's actually quite intuitive and "natural" once you get used to it. Think about it, it's simple: move your thumb a quarter of an inch in the direction you want to look. This can be done while you're doing whatever movement with the stick. The only other thing you should be sure to have is an "up modifier" button, which rotates the view 45 degrees up, or if used alone, 90 degrees up right out the top of your canopy; or, often referred to as "the lift vector". If possible, this should be a pinky switch on your joystick. if your stick doesn't have one of these, assign it to some other bit of gear. But you'll need to be able to use this button, too.

Try some exercises like this: take off from an airfield, and fly around. Practice spotting an object on the ground: say, the control tower, or a petrol bowser. Practice flying while keeping the object centered or nearly centered in view. Practice viewing the object, then returning to the cockpit view to get your speed, alt and heading, then quickly finding the object again.

Then, as you master that, practice doing hard maneuvers like barrel rolls, immelmans and break turns. In your mind's eye, keep track of where the object should be after you recover from the maneuver; then find it with the hat.

If you can learn to do that, you'll be able to use a hat in combat. Then, you'll never need to rely on the software for Situational Awareness.

BM357_Raven
03-07-2004, 11:35 AM
Huggy wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I find the hat switch moves your head too slowly and I don't like taking my hand off of the controls to move my mouse/head around.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know what you mean about the hat.. some guys do fine with it, but I much prefer the mouse-trick. Also, in generally, I am much more proficient with the mouse than with TrackIR.. But I also has a TON of practice with the mouse.

Dont use your dominant joystick-hand to move the mouse. Instead use your other hand. It's very important to have the correct sensitivity set up in your FB controls. The setting for mouse sensitivity should be set to 2.0 (that's what I recommend, anyhow).

The kind of mouse you use is very important as well. I highly recommend NOT using a mouse that uses a ball and wheel system to track. Instead, pick up an optical mouse (which are relatively inexpensive today).

The reason to use an optical mouse is that they are very efficient, accurate, and never get mouse-gunk built up inside making the thing operate sporatically.

Next, clear a space around your mouse. Use 8 x 11 inches at least of total clearance around your mouse because it is very important that you do not bump into any of your other controllers.

Also the mouse placement should be comfortable and relatively ergonomic so that your hand and arm are relaxed (ie. keyboard tray height at least).

My setup looks something like:

LEFT SIDE CENTER RIGHT SIDE
CH Throttle (4 in) Mouse (4 inch) Joystick

The learning curve is a long and somewhat tedious. I recommend not going right into combat when you are first learing the mouse-trick. Instead put a bunch of friendly bombers in a game using QMB and try scissoring and rolling in and out of them while trying to keep your focus on a particular plane in the group.

I always use the analogy of tyring to pat your your head and rub your stomache. At first it's disorienting, but then you begin to get the hang of it.

I'm a slow learner, but it took me a month to become somewhat proficient and probably longer to really get good at it.

At any rate, I hope you find time to really examine this method as I believe it is the most useful method to use in a full switch game.

OH! One last thing. If at any moment you become disoriented in your mouse-look, completely LET GO OF THE MOUSE and TAP YOUR HAT-SWITCH which will immediately snap you back to forward view...

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crazyivan1970
03-07-2004, 11:41 AM
Rav.. your posts are getting to short http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif stop being lazy and type more http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

This horse never dies too... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

V!
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BM357_Raven
03-07-2004, 11:47 AM
I was in the middle of posting my method while Stiglr was posting his method..

There are some really good pilots who rely on the hat.

Try both methods to see which you prefer. My method is a little less intuitive than Stiglr's at first.. When you need to use your mouse-hand to hit a keyboard function, you have to rely back onto the hat sometimes..

I got pretty quick to where I could make all necessary adjustments with my left hand and then return it to the mouse quickly. But for me the mouse-trick was, once I got good at it, like taking the cage off. I could look and hold my constant attention on any object..

This gives you an advantage in close quarters.. Specifically, when two planes come in close contact and begin to TnB. When you roll, you can quickly flip your attention around to the other side to catch your bandit..

I'm a big believer on having the ability to have as much visual contact with the bandit as possible. That's not to say that you don't sometimes need to throw the quick scan to check for other enemy aircraft, but... in a tight engagement in full switch settings, I can maintain nearly constant contact (if I want) on the bandit.

If he looses contact on me for a second or two or three, chances are that I have maintained my contact with him (or lost contact for a much shorter time) and therefore I am now positioning for a back-door nose to tail firing position--and in effect making it even harder for him to maintain visual contact..

The one who sees first and sees the longest is often the one who wins (all other variables being equal).

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Tully__
03-07-2004, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by huggy87:
If anybody has any good pointers for increasing SA and configuring a better way to fight and look around in this game please lay it on me.

Huggy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try the articles here (http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html), in particular the series "It's all a matter of perspective" and "Situational Awareness: Padlock In USAF and Flanker 2"

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Salut
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huggy87
03-07-2004, 12:25 PM
Tully, Raven,
Thanks. I'll give that a try.

Yum_Yum
03-07-2004, 12:47 PM
Hello http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

This topic is now growing old http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Everyone has the right to fly what they want, when they want, where they want.
I don't see anything more or less difficult between using cokpit on or cockpit off, One is not easier or harder than the other, they are just more different.

I fly both because I want to, and I am sure everyone else fly's they way they want!.

All the rantings like, my plane is harder to fly than yours, cockpit on or cockpit off, full real or arcade, all share the same thing in common "it's all full Bull" but remember ... it's only a game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Please play it quietly with your chosen settings and have fun.

BlackHawkLeader
03-07-2004, 01:22 PM
I have to agree with Buzzyou on this one who cares.
The view is gone.

darkhorizon11
03-07-2004, 06:25 PM
Do as you want. I was just having fun with you guys on my comment, lighten up. Its not like anybody knows whether your flying against them cockpit on or off anyways. Well unless its been turned on in the game in which case everyone is flying that way.

But there will always be times when people will get annoyed at you and give you flak for it.

But, it is cutting corners no matter how you look at it. Theres been many times in my real flying career where I wish I could turn the cockpit off thats for sure.

huggy87
03-10-2004, 10:54 PM
I stand corrected. Although Gr8ftrpilot and others have made some great points in favor of cockpit off, cockpit on is the only way to fly for me now. I have completed about 30 missions now with cockpit and it is much more rewarding. I justified cockpit off because of the advantage the computer has in a sim, and how many RL life cues are lost. However I just can't shake the feeling that it is cheating. My 2cents.