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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:00 PM
I've been frustrated trying to identify a nickel-sized Japanese Naval pin. It was given to me by a dear Japanese/American friend who recently passed away. The story goes that her father found it at the crash site of one of the 29 Japanese planes shot down during the attack on Pearl Harbor. I have gotten no response from WWII museums, memorial associations or on-line memorabilia vendors. So far, I haven't seen a pin like this pictured anywhere.

I'm not interested in determining it's resale value, just hoping to verify her father's story somehow and confirm that it is a legitiamate piece of WWII history. It seems clearly to be linked to the Japanese navy, by its design, but I'd like to find out if it can be shown to be specific to an air crew insignia. It has a standard clasp pin on the back side, which to me, may mean it was a cap pin.

If anyone knows of someone I could show this to and get an informed opinion, I'd appreciate it.



http://www.uploadit.org/files/241003-Japin1.jpg



<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:00 PM
I've been frustrated trying to identify a nickel-sized Japanese Naval pin. It was given to me by a dear Japanese/American friend who recently passed away. The story goes that her father found it at the crash site of one of the 29 Japanese planes shot down during the attack on Pearl Harbor. I have gotten no response from WWII museums, memorial associations or on-line memorabilia vendors. So far, I haven't seen a pin like this pictured anywhere.

I'm not interested in determining it's resale value, just hoping to verify her father's story somehow and confirm that it is a legitiamate piece of WWII history. It seems clearly to be linked to the Japanese navy, by its design, but I'd like to find out if it can be shown to be specific to an air crew insignia. It has a standard clasp pin on the back side, which to me, may mean it was a cap pin.

If anyone knows of someone I could show this to and get an informed opinion, I'd appreciate it.



http://www.uploadit.org/files/241003-Japin1.jpg



<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:09 PM
I cannot help you indentify this object, but I find this very interesting myself. I hope someone is able to give you some more information.

Bump /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:21 PM
i dont know if this will help, but i just found this site.

he sells japanese medals and insignia. problem is it doesnt show pictures of them.


hope it helps http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

members.aol.com/samurai111/japomb.htm

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:31 PM
I've sort of fallen into collecting military pins. But I don't have sources or relevent info. Just wanted to say it's quite beautiful. I hope you find out what it is. Let us know when you do.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:35 PM
I would have to put my money on it being a custom piece of jewelry made for on of the aircrew.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:45 PM
It appears to be a 'dress' <s>medal</s> insignia for a Seaman Third Class. Not sure if the added rising sun has additional meaning. (For some reason I keep thinking... nevermind.)

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/24/0312:48PM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:49 PM
i think realkill is right.

i just saw another site, and it was the same insignia, but with no rising sun behind it, just black. uniform though, not for a hat

3rd class seaman

might be an "unofficial" seaman pin?

ill see if i can find that site again

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:53 PM
Clyde,


Go here -


http://www.combinedfleet.com/contact.htm


and contact Jon Parshall. He is a great guy and is in touch with an excellent group of research associates specializing in the study of the Imperial Japanese Navy of WW2.

If its association with the Pearl Harbor attack can be documented, this item may well be of very great value in the collectible militaria market; take good care of it.



Blutarski



Message Edited on 10/24/0305:56PM by BLUTARSKI

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:58 PM
It may be a Seaman's pin that was issued for participation in a particular operation.

As for value, I would guess not less than $200USD.

EDIT: Buuut... this one is way up in the air for me. I am very interested, though.

EDIT: I am going to try and find it.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/24/03 01:01PM by RealKill

Message Edited on 10/24/0301:03PM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:16 PM
FOUND IT!!!!!

well sort of.....
on on E-BAY this person is asking 25 bucks for....it...


there is only one person interested in it but it says "high bidder.... you got 7 hours left on it go here.

hope i did it right.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2197519549&category=4080

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:18 PM
Naval Association full member's badge.

EDIT: Oh. I forgot to add. I found it for $20USD.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/24/0301:21PM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:30 PM
Just curious.
What's the 'N' stand for Clyde?

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:57 PM
Thanks for the help, guys.

I'm a little disappointed that the pin can't be linked to the Pearl Harbor attack as my friend's father claimed. I guess the implication is that any ordinary seaman may have worn it. If it is a "Naval Association" badge, them I should try and find out how it was worn. I find it curious that I never saw one pictured anywhere, being so common.

I'm going to display it along with some small Japanese propaganda flags that came from the Phillipines. Her family legend will have to remain a legend.

Oh, the "N" in my name is short for the ancient, mystic Celtic Runic name of "&".

I'm curious too.
What the hell is a "Zikky"?

<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:22 AM
The most probable way I can think of for this pin to be associated with Peal Harbor would be, if it was issued to a pilot or pilots, by order of the Imperial Navy, during a ceremony before the attack.

^ Meaning, being 'linked to the attack', in regards to direct association with, by being 'captured', or handed down, from the attack.

However, that pin is suppose to be an 'unofficial' pin. So, it being issued in an official ceremony, by order, would be unlikely. Although, during the war, I am sure there were many impromptu 'ceremonies', that were maybe used to boost moral, or honor service.

It is not impossible that all military personnel were give the pin as a 'token' for their participation. I believe, highly unlikely, though. More likely, the participants, except for meritorious awards, would have been given a ribbon.

Because it is suppose to be unofficial, could actually increase the chance that it was used for just such an impromtu ceremony, though.

Your first effort should be to discover when the pin was first used, and its general 'use'.

At this point, 'I' am not even sure if it was issued just to military personnel.

EDIT: Heck, I am actually thinking it was made way after World War II. When I have some more time, I may try and find out. But, I probably will not. - Get busy, Clyde, and get us some info! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/24/0306:36PM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:39 AM
Realkill,

How did you determine that this pin is a "Naval Association full member" pin? Nothing of that sort comes up in my searches. How did you come to that conclusion?

I also don't know how it has been decided it is an "unofficial pin". I don't care if that is true, but stating that without evidence doesn't help me much. If there is some basis for that, I'd like to know so I can follow that trail.

I have written to both sites that were mentioned in this thread and will report back on what (if any) reply I get back.

Beyond my inquiries to official historical societies, museums and associations, I have an antiques dealer in Canada trying to find out something about it. So far, she's come up empty too.

I also think I will try and find someone who reads Japanese characters. There is something stamped on the reverse side of the pin. It could say, "Hoki's trinket shop", for all I know, but may be of interest.

<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:46 AM
clyde why dont you e-mail that guy on e- bay ill bet he can provide more info about that pin

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_sniper2.gif
U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:40 AM
I went and looked at the EBay link and didn't see anything about the pin, but I've never been there before so I could have missed it among all the garbage posts.

I just got done writting to two International Medal Societies who both claim to be willing to ID anything. I also wrote to a collector of Japanese WWII uniforms and insignia. Maybe I'll get a response.

<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 09:01 AM
ok i went and registerd with them and e-mailed the guy he is japenese so maybe hese got good info ..i do know this most e-bay ppl respond fast so ill send his answere asap here for you

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_sniper2.gif
U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 09:33 AM
Terriffic!

I went back to ebay too and saw that I was looking in the wrong places. I don't really know how the place works, so I really appreciate your help.

<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 09:53 AM
clyde im talking to guy now ..what a few more min

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_sniper2.gif
U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:10 AM
wether it was offical or unoffical, the pilot or airman who wore it may of just been wearing it for luck or anything like that as the japanese tend to be a rather superstitious bunch at the best of times, let alone when something like pearl harbor was on the books

just a thought
Konigwolf

"Well, then, I confess, it is my intention to commandeer one of these ships, pick up a crew in Tortuga, raid, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out!"

Captain Jack Sparrow
Pirates of the Carribean:Curse of the Black Pearl

Hawgdog
10-25-2003, 03:09 PM
WTE_Konigwolf wrote:
-the japanese tend to
- be a rather superstitious bunch at the best of
- times,

Dam straight, not the rest of us LOL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Message Edited on 10/25/0310:13AM by Hawgdog

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 04:53 PM
Hi Tom,

Jon Parhell wrote me back! I'm going to do as he suggests and try these groups. It does imply that I may have some trouble tracking down the origine of this thing, but maybe the inscription on the back is important after all. Here's what Jon wrote me:

What a fascinating pin! I've never seen anything like it. I don't *think* it is military issue, but I could be wrong. Listen, here's what I would suggest-take this picture and go to www.j-aircraft.com (http://www.j-aircraft.com). They have several message boards. I would suggest posting this image, and your blurb, to both the Japanese Naval Aircraft list, and the "Ships&Navy" list. Mention my name, and that I suggested you post there; I'm well known on both lists. This is an incredibly knowledgeable group of folks, and they're very open to checking things like this out. They may have a clue where I do not. Regardless, it's a terribly cool pin, and I would hang onto it for sure!



Cheers,



-jon-



<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 05:36 PM
RealKill wrote:
-
- EDIT: Heck, I am actually thinking it was made way
- after World War II.

I did not post anymore because I could not find any detailed info. I did try very hard, though.

QUOTE: Jon Parhell... (Contacted by Tom.)
"I don't *think* it is military issue, ..."

I wanted to post earlier, but, again, no detailed info. I really did not want to post anymore 'ands/ifs/or buts'.

Buuut... I was thinking it is a commemorative pin made after the war.

I went to a couple of Japanese message boards, also. But, they were not really military history oriented, so I did not post.

I am glad you have been pointed to a resource. Maybe you will get some detailed info. Let us know.

Also, I was trying to find time today to contact my local library research department. Have not had a chance. You could do that, Clyde, if you have time.

Again, let us know.

EDIT: Oh, yeah. I did research on the Russo-Japanese era, and some other time lines. No luck there, either. I am still thinking post WWII, though.

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/25/0311:48AM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 06:16 PM
Thanks again for the assistance, RealKill. I've got about 15 inquiries out there now, I don't think I'll park my butt in our crummy, little local library just yet.
While I was looking around ebay I noticed a ton of those little Japanese flags. I've got the same ones, but I never knew what the purple/black/yellow/red one was suppose to symbolize. Any ideas?
http://www.uploadit.org/files/251003-Jpflags2.jpg



I only have those two flags and the pin. I have a few B-17 related things from my father and a huge collection of WWI stuff from my grandfather. Anyway,I figured I would put the flags and the pin together in one case for display.




<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 06:22 PM
I think it is a infantry unit flag. But, don't ask me what darn unit. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif I am all researched out!

EDIT. Actually, I just wanted 'an excuse' to stick my tongue out at you. I really have no idea. [ > HERE it is again. ] /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/25/0312:26PM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 07:56 PM
clyde here is the responce from japan from the guy selling one one on e-bay...........Thank you for your email and the photo/link. It's highly unlikely that it
was found with a dead pilot. It is a war support organization badge that was
given to civilians who helped support the war (not pilots). Best of luck in
all your collecting.

Shiho Strain

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_sniper2.gif
U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:02 PM
What? You wussing out? You're NOT going to do all of my research for me? Do they make a 'butt-head' smiley?

I'm just about researched-out my own self. I have some people in Seattle who know some Japanese people. They may be able to decipher the characters on the back. I also have some Japanese model builders, who are fanatic detail geeks, who may help some. I wrote two more museum curators this morning.

Hell, I stayed up 'til 3:30am poking around and all morning since I got up. I think I'll give it a rest too.

Thanks for your help, RealKill (you wuss!)

<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:50 PM
FOUND IT! Here's a reply I got about the pin:

This little (3/4") pin is a favorite of mine. I have a half dozen including a variant, pictured, which I've used as a logo on my listings on eBay. I also have a 2 1/4" paper weight very similar to your picture.

I read the 4 characters on the reverse of the pins as "Kaigun kyokai" which means "Navy Society/Association" which might also be the "Navy League". The characters for "kyokai" are old (pre-1946?) and only listed in my 1950's dictionary which I keep for just such instances.

Two of my pins and the paper weight came in boxes with inscriptions and the latter has a date of 12/3/1932 (which I had never noticed, thank you very much).

Others here might be able to address the power and influence of the Japanese Navy League before the war but my recollection of readings is that it was very influencial.

I don't think that anything said here would counter the legend that you have presented.

=Richard


****I've done some research on "Kaigun Kyokai" and found a Naval Counter Espionage report from 1941 that claims this group and a few other "patriotic" associations along the West Coast of the United States were fronts for Japanese-American ultra-nationalists and military reservist involved in collecting intelligence for the Japanese Navy prior to Pearl Harbor. It may be that my friend's father was a lousy, stinking, back-stabbing SPY!!! Maybe the pin belonged to him and he didn't want to admit it.

At this point, I won't take any offense if the pin belonged to an American after all. Either way, this story gets more interesting the more I work on it.


<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

Message Edited on 10/25/0311:12PM by Clyde_N_Burns

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 02:17 AM
this is the second reply from japan( i sent him the statements written above here is his second report back.....................IIm not trying to counter what you said...it's a support league...what would
a navy pilot be doing carrying a support leauge pin into battle? Just
doesn't make sense to me and sounds like a story someone just made up to
give the pin more "life"

Shiho Strain

im writting now.....this guy(shiho strain) makes a living selling jap stuf if he thought it to be more he could make more ....just a thought

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_sniper2.gif
U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 03:00 AM
Tenmmike,

It didn't take me more than 15 minutes to find out what the pin was made for once I had the translation of the Japanese characters on the back side. It surprises me that the guy who said he had quite a few of them in his collection said that the pin could have been found in a Japanese a/c. It is obvious from the first thing I read about "Kaigun Kyokai", that it was a civilian booster club, and a subversive one at that! It is very likely my friend's father didn't want to fess up to being part of such a club and made up the whole thing.

The only thing that bothers me is I made the mistake of sending his words of confirmation on to my friend's husband and now I have to tell him the truth. I don't know if her kids will be disappointed or not.

Anway, it was fun doing the search and meeting some good people and I'm still going to put the thing up as a display.

DONE. DONE And......DONE!

<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 03:01 AM
nt = No Text

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Are you damned? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
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You can laugh at the silly superstitions of the religious, safe in the knowledge that we are only dust and lies. All that will be left of you after you die is a slow decay and some fading memories in the minds of your friends. Hope you're enjoying your life at the moment- there's nothing better to come.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 01:07 PM
Yeah, I figured as much.

Association

Members

Like a booster club. However, I was thinking more along the lines of a support group, like our VFW, Veterans of Foreign Wars, but without the veterans. The pin being either a standard issue or special issue for civilians in the association. I was not thinking it may be some subversive organization. Well, some of my thinking was good.

I originally thought this, but did not want to crap on the 'legend'. (That is why I wrote, "never mind", in my very first post.)

I would still like to have a time line. Do you have one?

Aside:
The anchor immediately made me think of a seaman, but the rising sun and the water threw me off. BTW, it appears the designer made the pin to resemble an official merit award. (I will try and find a pic of the merit award if you want.) That is why I placed significant value on it at first, because I knew those awards are scarce. (Hell, maybe there are more of them floating around now.)

This was a very intersting little endeavor, even though I wasted waaay too much time on it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif (Of course, no one made me.) I really enjoyed it, for the most part. Sorry I could not be of more help and glad you have more info now.

^S

EDIT: Spelling. (Probably more mispelling, but, oh well.)

<p align="center">http://forums.ubi.com/i/icons/Symbols/symbol-us-flag.gif </br></br><font size="1" color="white"><u>RealKill</u></font></p><font size="1" color="#4A535C">

Message Edited on 10/26/0306:13AM by RealKill

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 06:41 PM
RealKill,

The Japanese characters on the back side of the pin (Kaigun Kyokai) are "older style", dating the pin to before 1945. He said sometime after 1932.


If you want a good Naval Intelligence report from 1942 on Kaigun Kyokai, The Black Dragon and the Yakuza, all of which were monitored for espionage before the war, type "Kaigun Kyokai" into google. Three short reports will come up. The Ringle Report is fascinating to read. I was surprised to see that the report wasn't at all bias against Japanese-Americans and made a strong case that only perhaps 3% could be considered likely to be subversive.

I have since written to the message board where the "expert" is a member in high standing. He hasn't responded to my revelations. He MUST have known the truth and his selling Japanese stuff on eBAY can be the only reason (I can think of) that he would flat-out lie to my face. The board is full of Japanese speaking war buffs, so I don't see what he had to gain from it, but he has been exposed.

<center> <img src=http://www.uploadit.org/files/231003-f-843.jpg> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>