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View Full Version : Is there any Bf-109F2 jockeys here



Snow_Wolf_
04-03-2004, 08:22 AM
I find that most guys on the dogfight Servers only fly the Late 109 series (Mostly the K4). I was wondering is there anyone that still fly the 109 F2 and F4.

Snow_Wolf_
04-03-2004, 08:22 AM
I find that most guys on the dogfight Servers only fly the Late 109 series (Mostly the K4). I was wondering is there anyone that still fly the 109 F2 and F4.

rummyrum
04-03-2004, 09:01 AM
I use to really enjoy the F4, but the G2 has become better and better so I usually fly that. Most fly the late models for the mk108 which I have never been very good at shooting. Call me crazy but I'd rather chip away at the enemy. G6 is also a great ride, as is the later versions of this model. HAvent flown a K in a long while and dont really care to.

9./JG54 Rummy

konstantinl1
04-03-2004, 09:04 AM
The Bf109F2 is a great plane to fly around in but it is very hard to get kills with that single low powered cannon.

If I fly Messer now it's usually a G6. Mainly because of Cannon UK's brilliant skins!

sithgod66
04-03-2004, 10:49 AM
I love my F2. Though I have to agree the lack of armament is a very serious drawback. I do alright against some of the Russian fighters but attacks on the medium bombers can become dangerous as the amount of rounds to down them is quite high. At least for me anyway. I much prefer the Fw-190's for bomber interception.

Xnomad
04-03-2004, 11:03 AM
K-4? If I can pick a G-2 I'll pick a G-2 even if it's 1944 and I'm hunting ponies. Otherwise it's G-6 A/S for me, but I would never fly the F-2 if the F-4 is available, what's the point that 15mm cannon is useless the 20mm right now is bad enough.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

Stalker58
04-03-2004, 11:25 AM
I was very suprised that G2 is better dogfighter the F2/F4! I still don't understant this..

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

TexasGunslinger
04-03-2004, 12:22 PM
My observation is that the 109 models used online in the various unlimited plane set servers,break out in the following way:

1) K4
2) G10/G6AS (can't tell them apart visually)
3) G6late/G14
4) G2

I think this is because in unlimited servers, the sheer performance (speed/firepower) of 44-45 models like, P-51D, KI-84a/b/c, BF-109Z, 20mm Spitfires, clipped wing spits, B-17G, P-47 (in a dive from high altitude) make the G2 unable to dictate the terms of combat.

Given multiple pilots of similar abilities in a server, the later model planes can run away when they want, outclimbing the G2 pretty much when they chose.

All it takes in a server like that is one mistake by the G2 pilot, and he's toast in one firing pass from the more heavily armed, faster planes who all have comparable manueverability in the horizontal, and better roll rates.

This is why I really like the historical servers.

Either the G2 is overmodeled (I don't think this is the case), or the F2/F4 is way undermodeled in roll rate and turn rate.

"Weight of the new G series escalated to over 6500lbs, but the RLM felt that given the war conditions, the consequent loss in handling was a fair trade off with the gain in power and speed achieved by the DB605 installation. Many pilots in the field felt otherwise, claiming the "G" series was a regressive step from the F series." Messerschmitt Bf 109 in Action - Part 2, Beaman. This idea of a loss in handling between F and G models, by the way is a constant thread throughout many biographies and historical records.

So, they don't handle the same but the G2 climbs and is faster than the F4. If you look at IL2 compare you'll find the F4 max turn rate without flaps is about 19 secs between 300 - 340 kph, while the G2 is 19-20 secs at 300 - 350. I believe that the handling difference is so close that you could'nt notice it while flying. The G2 will fly like the F4. When I fly an F4 and then a G2, they don't feel different to me except for speed/climb, both aircraft handle about the same, in terms of turn rate, energy bleed and roll rate.

My notion based upon the varied biographies of F4 flyers like Marseille, Munchenberg, and Schroer, who outfought and outflew over 100 Western opponents each, is that the F4 was one of the most highly manueverable aircraft of it's time. I think it's turn rate should be at least equal to the P-39's. That would produce the necessary difference in the flight models.

Stalker58
04-03-2004, 12:34 PM
I read somewhere aht turning time for F4 was 18s, that's on pair with Yak 3.

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

S77th-brooks
04-03-2004, 12:44 PM
ya f4 g2 g6as are my picks/g10 k4 are more B and Z but if your into E fighting early bf are the ones http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

TexasGunslinger
04-03-2004, 01:03 PM
18 seconds sounds right. That 2 seconds off 20 and would be noticable...

Xnomad
04-03-2004, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TexasGunslinger:

I think this is because in unlimited servers, the sheer performance (speed/firepower) of 44-45 models like, P-51D, KI-84a/b/c, BF-109Z, 20mm Spitfires, clipped wing spits, B-17G, P-47 (in a dive from high altitude) make the G2 unable to dictate the terms of combat.

Given multiple pilots of similar abilities in a server, the later model planes can run away when they want, outclimbing the G2 pretty much when they chose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry I don't completely agree with you Gunslinger, yes they can't dictate the means but a G-2 can still put up quite a fight against late war planes. Servers that allow most plane sets usually come with quite a few bad pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif e.g. the Warclouds 44 server.

If you have enough altitude and speed you can keep up with whoever challenges you as long as you aren't heavily outnumbered or two different types of planes are following you one a T&Ber and the other a B&Zer because then you are in trouble. Spitfires are too slow, outclimb them at a speed between 250 and 300 Kmph and they can't keep up make sure this is at 3000 m or below as they start to climb faster than a G-2 at 3000 metres. None of the Spitfires in AEP are a match for the G-2 in terms of speed or climb. I'm not sure what the IX will be like.

If a Pony is after you turn and burn him, if a P-39 is after you outclimb him too etc. I once got two Mustangs ganging up on me, I chased one away smoking and shot the other down. I haven't studied the P-63 but from my experience it isn't fun to meet in a G-2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

As long as it's not some hotshot in the other seat or you are outnumbered then it can be easily done, as I haven't seen too many Yak 3's or LA 7's in my online career whilst flying G-2s, as on the servers I fly if there are LA 7's then G-2 isn't an option due to historical accuracy, but from my experience on the Warclouds 44 server, against Western opposition, the G-2 can do the job and I haven't flown servers where German planes face Japanese planes.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
04-03-2004, 05:57 PM
I like the plane...at least now.

In 1.0 FB and in IL-2, Oleg had seen fit to endow the Franzes with what I call the "Oleg Bananna Peel Snap Stall"; against all data to the contrary, our 109F was very prone to enter snap stalls and even flat spins; often ripping one out of a coordinated right turn right onto his inverted left bank. Utter nonsense.

Now, in AEP, I notice that much of that imagined trait is gone...but it's been transferred to the G2, which used to be (and ought to be) the pinnacle of the 109 series. Before, a few seconds of down trim would cut that stall behavior right out of the 109G2's flight envelope, but would not cure the problem in 109Fs. Now, the reverse is true.

So, now, for the time being, 109Fs are the wily dogfighters they should be...but they seem a mite underpowered if they meet up with Spit Vs. Still nice machines though... until the next *cough* FM audit. In the meantime, the 109G6 serves me better than the 109G2.

Seems everything is backward with this FM.

Snow_Wolf_
04-03-2004, 07:49 PM
Yea i still want to see a nice dogfight with 109F4 vs Spitfire Mk V 1941 or Fw 190 A4 vs Spitfire 1942 off the coast of Normandy.

http://aa.1asphost.com/seafury/Mononoke%20Hime/hime.jpg

XyZspineZyX
04-03-2004, 08:43 PM
Preferably a *stock* Spitfire, not one with some magical upgraded engine (is that the English equivalent to the MiG-3U we have here?)

mortoma
04-03-2004, 09:16 PM
Despite the slightly weaker cannon, I do just as well with the F2 as I do with any of the other planes. I also get a fair amount of bombers. My average of kills over 20 offline missions is normal. You only have to be more careful when shooting the target and ensure you get more hits when you shoot. Standard for me is to get super close to a plane before I shoot. I became a better marksman by flying this under-armed bird. Also I had to develop sneakier methods of attacking bombers.

BlitzPig_DDT
04-04-2004, 12:05 AM
I too can't help but wonder if the F2 is undermodeled a bit. All 109s are handicapped with a bogus elevator restriction too. F-K should be no worse (certainly not much, if at all) than a Mustang at speed.

But, in playing in the QMB tonight, I got to wondering, could part of what makes the G2 seem like a better turn fighter be it's superior acceleration and climb?

All dogfights, even "turn fights" are about E. Unless you simply engage in an endless Lufberry circle, and nobody does that. You high or low yo-yo, you immelman, split S, zoom climb and spiral climb in addition to turning. Even in biplanes.

The G2 can regain the speed lost in a tight turn, than the F2. So you are more often closer to corner speed.

Also, I wonder if we are pulling a higher AoA in the F2 because it is slower. In the G2, by going faster, you are probably overtaking the enemy faster than with the F2, so you feel like you are turning fast enough and don't feed in as much stick. But by going slower the other guy might be pulling away and we instinctively feed in more stick to try to turn harder, which just increases E-bleed, slows us down and makes it harder to turn as well.

Not really sure, just guessing. Has anyone done any serious testing since AEP came out?

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

KaRaYa-X
04-04-2004, 05:36 AM
@Blitzpig_DDT:

That's exactly what I think too. The F2 and F4 only sort of "seem" less maneuvrable because they have a more effective horizontal rudder response (try it yourself --&gt; fly an F4 and a G2 into a dive and then pull up. The F4 is superior in this respect and thus can pull up faster!)
However the G2 has a better acceleration which is also important for sustained turns - you will loose energy slower in a G2 and therefore be able to make tighter turns.

The F2 and F4 are really good dogfighters although the G2 is my absolute all-time favourite. The only Bf I don't like is the G6early and late. I've no clue why it climbs SOOOOO slow - it's as bad as the F4. However this model is only slightly heavier than the G2 so it should climb minimally slower by some seconds (both have the same engine and a very similar body).
I have read an interview of a finnish fighter pilot from WWII who flew both the G2 and G6. He said he preferred the G6 because it had more firepower (2xheavy MGs vs 2xlight MGs) and was only slower by around 15km/h top-speed.

-- flying online as JG_52Karaya-X --

TexasGunslinger
04-04-2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TexasGunslinger:

I think this is because in unlimited servers, the sheer performance (speed/firepower) of 44-45 models like, P-51D, KI-84a/b/c, BF-109Z, 20mm Spitfires, clipped wing spits, B-17G, P-47 (in a dive from high altitude) make the G2 unable to dictate the terms of combat.

Given multiple pilots of similar abilities in a server, the later model planes can run away when they want, outclimbing the G2 pretty much when they chose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry I don't completely agree with you Gunslinger, yes they can't dictate the means but a G-2 can still put up quite a fight against late war planes. Servers that allow most plane sets usually come with quite a few bad pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif e.g. the Warclouds 44 server.

If you have enough altitude and speed you can keep up with whoever challenges you as long as you aren't heavily outnumbered or two different types of planes are following you one a T&Ber and the other a B&Zer because then you are in trouble. Spitfires are too slow, outclimb them at a speed between 250 and 300 Kmph and they can't keep up make sure this is at 3000 m or below as they start to climb faster than a G-2 at 3000 metres. None of the Spitfires in AEP are a match for the G-2 in terms of speed or climb. I'm not sure what the IX will be like.

If a Pony is after you turn and burn him, if a P-39 is after you outclimb him too etc. I once got two Mustangs ganging up on me, I chased one away smoking and shot the other down. I haven't studied the P-63 but from my experience it isn't fun to meet in a G-2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

As long as it's not some hotshot in the other seat or you are outnumbered then it can be easily done, as I haven't seen too many Yak 3's or LA 7's in my online career whilst flying G-2s, as on the servers I fly if there are LA 7's then G-2 isn't an option due to historical accuracy, but from my experience on the Warclouds 44 server, against Western opposition, the G-2 can do the job and I haven't flown servers where German planes face Japanese planes.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I am getting old. Maybe I'm confusing what's in AEP with the older versions (you have to admit there have been a few).

Tell you what I'm going to do, I'm going to devote today to flying the G2 online for a while and see how I feel after that.

I saw a post from Stiglr right after yours and this does'nt jive with what I feel, so I'm thinking that maybe I'm remembering too far back.

Let my go try the G2 (and F4) for a while tonite...

Later

XyZspineZyX
04-04-2004, 03:15 PM
Karaya, have you tried the G6 models *lately*?

I like them better than the G2 now, because the design team saw fit to foist the "Oleg Banana Peel Snapstall" onto the G2 (the Fs don't do this as much anymore); anyway, the G2 now snaps out of turns, but the G6s don't.

The G6s seem much more survivable now.

BlitzPig_DDT
04-04-2004, 06:02 PM
Just did some more "testing" (more playing really) in the QMB.

The speeds at which combat, and turns, are entered and held are higher in the G-2. Anyone have the exact weights on the F-4 and G-2 handy? (I tested against the 4 as it was more powerful than the 2) I know the G-2 was heavier, but IIRC, not by an amount that could be called "significant". This would mean that, since the wings were the same, the G-2 might well be able to maintain higher lift excesses due to the speeds it can maintain. It doesn't mean that it can turn "better" in an absolute sense. It just feels that way since we aren't fighting real control forces, with real stick throw distances, and seat of the pants feedback.

The F-4 was a more pleasant flying plane, when entering a turn at speed black out was possible, identical to the G-2 (near enough that I couldn't tell the difference), but the speed quickly dropped off and once it dropped below 290, flaps were needed to keep up with the AI G-2.

The G-2 on the other hand, having more thrust, lost less speed in the turn or climbs and accelerated faster in a dive as well. This actually made it easier to maintain speeds of 310-350, where both fighters turn much better.

So I'm more convinced now that it's a matter of perception mixed with, perhaps, a slight amount of undermodeling on the F-4.

Tried the G-6 early a bit too. Better climb, better dive, overall more power, but the extra weight was starting to overcome the wings and the extra power wasn't enough to really overcome that. Basically it felt worse in a turn, although not exactly a "brick".

The increased thrust and more powerful weapons gave me the feel of a plane that was more difficult to use, but more deadly to enemies than the G-2. Which makes sense really. Not even the Nazi's were stupid enough to produce a new fighter that was worse than it's previous ones.

Maybe things are starting to come together. Now, if only we could get the elevator worked out......

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

Snow_Wolf_
04-04-2004, 07:59 PM
109 G-2
Type: Single-seat fighter
Werk #: 10639
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke, renamed Messerschmitt AG 1938
Engine:
Type: Daimler-Benz DB 605 A-1 liquid-cooled, inverted V12
Horsepower At Take-Off: 1,475 hp
Horsepower At 18,700 Ft.: 1,355 hp
Horsepower With GM1 At 27,890 Ft.: 1,250 hp

Fuel:
Capacity: N/A
Type: N/A

Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft 6.5 in.
Length: 29 ft 0.5 in.
Height: 8 ft 2.5 in.
Wing Surface Area: N/A

Weights:
Empty, Equipped: 4,968 lbs.
Normal, Loaded: 6,834 lbs.
Maximum, Overloaded: 7,055 lbs.

Performance: At 6,834 lbs.
Maximum Speed:
317 mph at sea level
331 mph at 3,280 ft.
350 mph at 6,560 ft.
365 mph at 9,840 ft.
369 mph at 16,400 ft.
398 mph at 20,670 ft.
383 mph at 26,250 ft.
406 mph at 28,540 ft. (With GM1)
Range:
Internal Fuel Only
340 mls at 322 mph

With 66 Imp Gallon (300 Liter) Drop Tank
528 mls at 322 mph

Initial climb: N/A
Time to 9,840 ft (3,000m): N/A
Time to 18,700 ft (5,700m): N/A

Service Ceiling: 39,370 Ft.

Armament:
One 20mm Mg 151/20 engine mounted cannon with 150 rounds
And
Two 7.9mm MG17 fuselage mounted machine guns with 500 rpg.

Avionics:
N/A


109 F-3

Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Bayerische Flegzeugwerke

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine:
Model: Daimler-Benz 601E
Type: Liquid Cooled Inverted V12
Number: One Horsepower: 1,300hp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimensions:
Wing span: 32 ft. 6 in.
Length: 29 ft. 0 in.
Height: 8 ft. 6 in.
Wing Surface Area: N/A

Weights:
Empty: 4,330 lb.
Maximum, Loaded: 6,054 lb.
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 390 mph at 22,000 ft.
Maximum Climb: 3,320 feet per minute
Range: 440 Miles
Service Ceiling: 37,000 ft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armament:
One 15mm MG 151 mounted between cylinder heads and firing through the propeller hub with 200 rounds
And
Two 7.9mm MG 17 mounted above engine with 500 rounds per gun

Avionics:
N/A

got it from http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/

http://aa.1asphost.com/seafury/Mononoke%20Hime/hime.jpg

BlitzPig_DDT
04-04-2004, 08:23 PM
Hmm. Looks like only about 638lbs difference when empty. Interesting that the fully loaded F-3 is lighter than the "normally loaded" G-2 however. Seems rather odd overall.

But, with the empty weights being almost negligible in their difference, combined with 175 extra HP.

They see more alike than different. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(by those #s at least)

BTW, Snow Wolf, what anime is that sig from?

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

XyZspineZyX
04-04-2004, 10:00 PM
DDT, the reason the G6 was "worse" than the G2 was because its role had changed.

Up through the G4, the 109 was thought to be a fighter first and foremost.

With the G6, the idea was to make a bomber interceptor first, bomber second. Thus, it's heavier, with a bigger engine to get it up higher, heavier cowl guns to punch harder (and to fit these, the "bulges" that gave the G6 its nickname of "Beule" among the pilots), etc. etc.

That's why the G6 and later models are a different kettle of fish. I find they make more powerful, but wider moves. You don't throw them around the sky, rather you plan a little ahead and make well-coordinated moves backed with power. I try to fly the G6s more like I would a FW190; much less turning, and more vertical (which of course, runs afoul of the hideous elevator modeling).

BlitzPig_DDT
04-05-2004, 09:18 AM
Agreed. Many people here have claimed that the 109 was "hopelessly outdated" from about mid-war on, and, also claimed that the G-6 was a backward step. I disagree with both of those sentiments and was just mentioning that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2004, 10:11 AM
Yep, I concur.

It would be fairer to say that the 109 had peaked and begun a downward slide in competitiveness with the G6, but it certainly wasn't "hopelessly outclassed". Lipfert got what, 202 kills, and he STARTED on 109Gs.

Snow_Wolf_
04-05-2004, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>


BTW, Snow Wolf, what anime is that sig from?

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i am guess the F-3 there sould be treated more like the F-2 specs. Since it got the same armerment as the F2, Which may be accounted for part of that 638lb difference

It from Mononoke Hime (Princess Mononoke) same maker of the Anime Porco Rosso, Laputa

http://aa.1asphost.com/seafury/Mononoke%20Hime/hime.jpg

BlitzPig_DDT
04-05-2004, 11:02 AM
Ah. Never got into any of those.

Always been more of a Sonada, Matsumoto, Shirow type fan. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com