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SixKeys
05-13-2016, 10:11 PM
Now, before you say anything, hear me out.

Ubi devs have already expressed interest for potentially integrating the movie's version of the Animus into future games. My first instinct was to reject the idea, but thinking about it more, I actually think it could solve the problem that has been with MD ever since the beginning. Namely that a lot of people feel like it's boring and annoying to be pulled back from the action in the past to MD where you're just a schlob sitting in a chair and all you can do is walk around a bit and check your e-mail.

The "Armimus" could inject some energy and innovative gameplay into MD. Think "Bleeding Effect meets VR Room". Actually showing the MD protagonist training his or her assassin skills by having the Animus create a hybrid virtual reality of a modern training interface (like the one in Brotherhood) whilst showing echoes from the past that you can only pursue in MD. Remember in ACB when you had to chase Ezio's ghost at Monteriggioni and the Colosseum? Remember when ghostly soldiers would charge towards Desmond when he was tripping out in AC2? Remember the weird architecture on Animus Island? Remember this from the AC3 cinematic intro?

http://img09.deviantart.net/8b6a/i/2013/188/b/3/ezio_assassins_creed_3_intro_by_kari5-d6cenvs.png

Or the Animus-inspired multiplayer map:

https://cdn0.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/181/820/large/maxime-lariviere-animus-core-04.jpg?1409148330

THAT is what I've always wanted the Bleeding Effect to be. A crazy amalgamation of modern design with flashes from the past mixing in until you can't tell what's real. Buildings appear distorted and floating, NPCs walk on walls or the ceiling so your sense of direction is all messed up. "Impossible geometry", as Lovecraft would say. Having to distinguish between digitally recreated targets vs. people like Shaun and Rebecca who are standing around guiding you, encouraging you to keep a grip on reality. I always wanted to see Desmond wake at night and wander off following a ghostly "target", thinking he was Altaïr or Ezio, and just as he's about to pull out his hidden blade, reality comes flooding back in and he realizes he's actually been stalking one of his friends, who look at him like he's gone crazy.

The "Armimus", being a more interactive version of the traditional machine, has the potential to create illusions a hundred times more powerful than before, since it allows your body to literally move around and follow its muscle memory. It could be the key to making MD more interactive and interesting, hence giving the devs reason to focus on it again.

Thoughts?

cawatrooper9
05-13-2016, 10:21 PM
My guy reaction to the new Animus is :NO WAY!

But then I did decide to hear you out, and I'm glad I did.

I think your most compelling point is having other characters (like Shaun and Rebecca) be more present while in the Animus. It seems a shame that these characters have been essentially nothing more than voiceovers for much of their tenure, and this would be a great way to bring them more fully into the fold.

However, ever since Revelations, I've had an idea that could accomplish this via the more traditional Animus, and a bit less anachronistically as well. At one point in the game, Subject 16 asks if he can come with Desmond (presumably back to the real world, but it could be interpreted as into the simulation as well). Until the end of the game, I fully expected to find that Clay would find some avatar and join the simulation, for better or for worse (given the timing of things, I originally thought that he'd turn out to be The Sentinel, silly as it seems now). Unity did something kind of like this with its multiplayer, and it would be a great way to bring side MD characters more fully into the story. With dual protagonists last year, it was kind of a missed move in general.


So, for the tl;dr crowd, I'd say that I really like your ideas, particularly that of bringing other MD characters more fully into the simulation, but I'm still not sold on the GLaDOS shaped Animus.

Senningiri_GR
05-13-2016, 10:36 PM
Now, before you say anything, hear me out.
Ubi devs have already expressed interest for potentially integrating the movie's version of the Animus into future games. My first instinct was to reject the idea, but thinking about it more, I actually think it could solve the problem that has been with MD ever since the beginning. Namely that a lot of people feel like it's boring and annoying to be pulled back from the action in the past to MD where you're just a schlob sitting in a chair and all you can do is walk around a bit and check your e-mail.


I believe that is a bad idea and that the VR Animus Omega did not restrict you to be in one room all the time so there could be some action of bleeding effect. There is one drawback that one would need a special training room. Also people say that modern day story is boring for one reason. Now there is no present day only flash backs from it. I remember when everyone was excited about Desmond's missions in Assassin's Creed 3.


The "Armimus" could inject some energy and innovative gameplay into MD. Think "Bleeding Effect meets VR Room". Actually showing the MD protagonist training his or her assassin skills by having the Animus create a hybrid virtual reality of a modern training interface (like the one in Brotherhood) whilst showing echoes from the past that you can only pursue in MD.

What you say looks cool as it involves the Training Room from Assassin's Creed Brotherhood. It looks like a rift of the Helix system too. I think if it is not made properly, it will be very confusing (Present Day-Training-Past Memories)


The "Armimus", being a more interactive version of the traditional machine, has the potential to create illusions a hundred times more powerful than before, since it allows your body to literally move around and follow its muscle memory. It could be the key to making MD more interactive and interesting, hence giving the devs reason to focus on it again.

Is sounds as an excellent way to have a final fight with Juno!!! It could be: Juno has a body. Assassins manage to hunt her down and then before acquiring a new one from Abstergo, the Assassins send one of them in the Armimus to break into the Grey and destroy Juno's consciousness once for all. That would be an epic battle, the now machine being against the strength of will of a human. It could also involve promises of Juno and threats of what will happen to the world in the form of illusions. It could an innovation...

Sorrosyss
05-13-2016, 10:39 PM
I loved the bleeding effect scenes in the older games. I think on reflection, the point to the new Animus arm is in encouraging the user to 'play out' what they are experiencing, it is creating muscle memory, and in my view a faster and more powerful synchronisation with the user. To this end, it may actually vastly reduce the bleeding effect in theory, but equally I love your ideas of an individual struggling to distinguish between the simulation and reality - and subsequently end up attacking people out of illusion.

At the end of the day, this may well be a way to make the Modern Day sections more interesting for those that found them boring, especially if you are running through VR training rooms. Its got to be better than either lying down, or standing around talking surely?

This whole suggestion could only work if we have a new MD progatonist. And thats the most exciting aspect right now. Floaty tablet just would not work with this whole scenario. Alot of new fans may jump into the game series having seen the movie, and with no previous experience I can see a lot of people expecting a similar kind of scenario where they are a modern day person flung into the AC world. It really is the best time to reboot the MD, and tieing it to the film with this new Animus may be a blessing for the franchise as a whole.

SixKeys
05-13-2016, 11:24 PM
Is sounds as an excellent way to have a final fight with Juno!!! It could be: Juno has a body. Assassins manage to hunt her down and then before acquiring a new one from Abstergo, the Assassins send one of them in the Armimus to break into the Grey and destroy Juno's consciousness once for all. That would be an epic battle, the now machine being against the strength of will of a human. It could also involve promises of Juno and threats of what will happen to the world in the form of illusions. It could an innovation...

Ooh, I didn't even think about the Grey, but you're right. Juno is essentially a ghost in the machine, able to hack into sophisticated systems. There could be a fight where she keeps trying to take control of the Animus and crush you with it or smash you into walls, and you would have to fight to regain control of it with your mind. There is great story potential now that VR is becoming reality and it'll be easier than ever for people to get confused by what they're seeing and experiencing.

dxsxhxcx
05-13-2016, 11:56 PM
The "armnimus" works as the Animus because the emulation happens around it (inside our mind), but during the modern days we would be limited by its length and the terrain, because the Bleeding Effect doesn't happen around us, it happens in the entire area we are in. So I don't think we would have the same freedom we have during an Animus session.

I'm all for bringing both the Bleeding Effect (but if brought back I hope they use it in a smarter way and not just as a tour guide.) and the VR training room back though.. :D

Sushiglutton
05-14-2016, 12:10 AM
Love "Armimus", it's what I'm gonna call it from now on :D!

In the games we always see the place in which (say) Desmond's consciousness is. Therefor we would actually never see him move in the armimus. In the movie I guess they will cut so a motion in the past transitions into the same motion in the present. This cool effect would make less sense in the game. If there's some VR training I'm not sure if displaying the arm would work as it would make it hard to see the character form a third person perspective?

That said I do prefer the armimus, as I explained somewhere else, because it makes a lot more sense as an actual training tool, so perhaps they can make sense of it in the game anyway?

Senningiri_GR
05-14-2016, 10:25 AM
Ooh, I didn't even think about the Grey, but you're right. Juno is essentially a ghost in the machine, able to hack into sophisticated systems. There could be a fight where she keeps trying to take control of the Animus and crush you with it or smash you into walls, and you would have to fight to regain control of it with your mind. There is great story potential now that VR is becoming reality and it'll be easier than ever for people to get confused by what they're seeing and experiencing.

I could be like Desmond in the Black Room. Someone sent in and having to deal with a super powered being in it's own castle. The unknown can be a part of the battle as we do not know what exactly is the Grey, only that this is where Juno's consciousness is now. Also Juno has already hacked both Animus and Helix.



I'm all for bringing both the Bleeding Effect (but if brought back I hope they use it in a smarter way and not just as a tour guide.) and the VR training room back though.. :D

I always wandered why the Bleeding Effect has disappeared from the AC universe. In the Abstergo Entertainment there are Amimi Research Analysts everywhere and there is no one seen to have a problem or at least a message in the Analyst's tablet of how to cope with the Bleeding Effect...

Jessigirl2013
05-14-2016, 01:04 PM
My guy reaction to the new Animus is :NO WAY!

So, for the tl;dr crowd, I'd say that I really like your ideas, particularly that of bringing other MD characters more fully into the simulation, but I'm still not sold on the GLaDOS shaped Animus.

I just cant get over how they messed with the animus.
Part of me is wishing they release a day one patch to rid the movie of that monstrosity.:mad:


I feel like the movie had lost the simplicity of the games... and feels the need to over compensate with over the top visuals.
And yet the blood effects are practically none existant....


Don't get me started on the whole hidden blades while in the animus thing... Guess we know how he escapes and attempts to.. <------- CALLED IT.:rolleyes:

All in all, the animus and the acting of the woman had me cringing SO HARD...:rolleyes:


Anyone else think this?

Senningiri_GR
05-14-2016, 02:47 PM
I just cant get over how they messed with the animus.
And yet the blood effects are practically none existant....
Don't get me started on the whole hidden blades while in the animus thing.
All in all, the animus and the acting of the woman had me cringing SO HARD...:rolleyes:
Anyone else think this?

Yes me too, I believe this changing was ridiculous. When you create a universe and you have set laws. If then you alter or ignore them, it will end in a massive fail and fans will be disappointed. Just like the new Star Wars 7, in which, one of the largest drawbacks was that a novice was able to to what someone would take years to master no matter how powerful he is (In SW both Anakin and Luke had years of training, even though Anakin was the strongest force sensitive ever). And now we see this law ignoring in the Assassin's Creed which if they end up putting it in the movie, at least I hope that they won't spoil the games and have a good excuse about it (for example an Abstergo experiment or something). Usually where this happens, hardocore fans hate it.


As I have said in the other thread:


I believe the trailer was good except one thing: The New Animus. This Animus is like a large robotic hand that involves memory reliving and training as it looks. The reason they put this was that the classic Animus (AC, AC2, ACB), which is bed or chair like looks an idea taken from the Matrix. Also people say that this is a good idea as with 65% present day story and 35% relived memories it would be boring with most of the film watching someone lying on a chair. I must say that this is wrong, because then why were the games not boring as well??? In the games Desmond's ark was shown outside of it and the memories of the ancestors were when he was in it. But we did not see almost at all Desmond lying down. It was mostly in the introduction of the Animi in the first Assassin's Creed and later only Desmond re-entering it, as he did in Assassin's Creed 2 (only two times), Assassin's Creed Brotherhood and Assassin's Creed 3 (well in the ls tow games many times as you could exit the Animus, but still every time you did it was just only 2-3 seconds).

So they could have just done it in the film. The Templars explaining to Callum and the audience for 4-5 minutes what is the Animus, just like in the first game, and then to have him lie down and then immediately have him reliving the memories of Aguilar

And also if the Matrix thing is the problem, there is the Animus Omega that looks like a VR Animus.
http://www.accesstheanimus.com/Brahman2-2/27.jpg

But I think we are getting of topic ;)

MikeFNY
05-14-2016, 03:21 PM
I just cant get over how they messed with the animus.
Part of me is wishing they release a day one patch to rid the movie of that monstrosity.:mad:
No disrespect intended, but if you expected the movie to be "for the gamers", then you're incredibly deluded.

Which is why I believe the movie will be enjoyed, mainly, by those who have no idea what AC is about.

If you see the people involved you will immediately understand that the movie was made to entertain, surprise and shock, to make you go "uh and ah".

All it has in common with the videogame is the name and concept.

dxsxhxcx
05-14-2016, 10:04 PM
I always wandered why the Bleeding Effect has disappeared from the AC universe. In the Abstergo Entertainment there are Amimi Research Analysts everywhere and there is no one seen to have a problem or at least a message in the Analyst's tablet of how to cope with the Bleeding Effect...

Because Ubisoft has no interest in expanding the MD in the games...

Jessigirl2013
05-25-2016, 05:53 PM
Yes me too, I believe this changing was ridiculous. When you create a universe and you have set laws. If then you alter or ignore them, it will end in a massive fail and fans will be disappointed. Just like the new Star Wars 7, in which, one of the largest drawbacks was that a novice was able to to what someone would take years to master no matter how powerful he is (In SW both Anakin and Luke had years of training, even though Anakin was the strongest force sensitive ever). And now we see this law ignoring in the Assassin's Creed which if they end up putting it in the movie, at least I hope that they won't spoil the games and have a good excuse about it (for example an Abstergo experiment or something). Usually where this happens, hardocore fans hate it.


As I have said in the other thread:



But I think we are getting of topic ;)

I have to say that since the trailer has been revealed I change my mind on the whole "should the movie be referenced in the games" to HELL NO!

Jessigirl2013
05-25-2016, 05:57 PM
No disrespect intended, but if you expected the movie to be "for the gamers", then you're incredibly deluded.

Which is why I believe the movie will be enjoyed, mainly, by those who have no idea what AC is about.

If you see the people involved you will immediately understand that the movie was made to entertain, surprise and shock, to make you go "uh and ah".

All it has in common with the videogame is the name and concept.

They could at least try and stay loyal to the games...:rolleyes:


Because Ubisoft has no interest in expanding the MD in the games...

There was if I remember correctly a file in the analysts tablet about the bleeding effect and employees talk about it around abstergo entertainment.

Senningiri_GR
05-26-2016, 12:28 PM
I have to say that since the trailer has been revealed I change my mind on the whole "should the movie be referenced in the games" to HELL NO!

This is exactly what they must not do. The new Animus is terrible. The excuse of too boring is not true as in the games we see what Desmond sees and not Desmond in the Animus.

PJ_Hasham308
05-26-2016, 02:19 PM
Not sure what people's problem is with the new Animus. I didn't see anyone complain when we started using the Animus 2.0 or when we started using the Helix. The way I see it it's just an upgraded model.

Maybe Abstergo are trialling this new Animus or have found it's easier for the subject to sync with their ancestors memories.

They probably wanted the general audience to not compare it with the matrix.

At the end of the day though if they use it in the games you wouldn't even realise the difference once you're strapped in as you'll be seeing what your ancestor sees. Not the modern day protagonist jumping around.

Ubi-Banshee
05-26-2016, 03:14 PM
Not sure what people's problem is with the new Animus. I didn't see anyone complain when we started using the Animus 2.0 or when we started using the Helix. The way I see it it's just an upgraded model.

Maybe Abstergo are trialling this new Animus or have found it's easier for the subject to sync with their ancestors memories.

They probably wanted the general audience to not compare it with the matrix.

At the end of the day though if they use it in the games you wouldn't even realise the difference once you're strapped in as you'll be seeing what your ancestor sees. Not the modern day protagonist jumping around.

I like it too! I said this in another thread but adding a kinetic aspect to the bleeding effect would make it translate better visually for something like the movie. Narratively it could also be an evolution of technology, a more efficient way to immerse the subject into the memories, the animus is an improving technology. Like you said - if they do put it in the games it's probably not likely that you'd be swinging around as the MD person - you'd enter the animus and be the ancestor.

PJ_Hasham308
05-26-2016, 03:21 PM
I like it too! I said this in another thread but adding a kinetic aspect to the bleeding effect would make it translate better visually for something like the movie. Narratively it could also be an evolution of technology, a more efficient way to immerse the subject into the memories, the animus is an improving technology. Like you said - if they do put it in the games it's probably not likely that you'd be swinging around as the MD person - you'd enter the animus and be the ancestor.

I doubt anyone would have said anything if this version was introduced in one of the AC games rather than the movie.

crusader_prophet
05-26-2016, 05:55 PM
That is very thoughtful summary of the bleeding effect. Past seeping into the present until the subject loses ability to distinguish. BUT, what I do not want the modern day to be is become X-men simulation room. That concept has been overdone and has become cliché. So there is a hair-thin line that the developers have to be careful about when dealing with the MD gameplay so it does not become sore simulation style yet be able to introduce the amalgamation concepts.

Because Animus is NOT a simulation device, it IS a synchronization device. How do you effectively instill that in interactive media? Simulation is experiencing something that is not there, while synchronization is recreation of memories that already exists. It is almost like time travel but not really. So you can't just create a fracture in time-space continuum and explain the MD amalgamation. It has to be more subtle than that. And I think the Animus MP map was the closest I've seen so far where the subject is unable to distinguish his/her surroundings between present / synced past. Bleeding effect should be something that after exiting the Animus, it's lingering effect causes the subject's brain to not be able to effectively interpret and differentiate architecture, objects, living beings, etc w.r.t. to timeline and that is mediated through eyesight, touch, speech pattern, movements, etc. Now to induce that severe effect, if the evolution of the technology needs to involve kinetic aspect during the subject’s synchronization phase , I do not have any opposition to that. It can even be more interesting. Imagine you are in the middle of a mission in synchronization phase running through rooftops, all of a sudden your sync level goes below threshold, and you are seen running in air (LOL).

LoyalACFan
05-29-2016, 03:41 PM
I guess I'm just not sure what the new Animus does that would make things functionally different for the player. I mean, haven't we already "played as Desmond" in the Animus via the White and Black Rooms without needing the arm? Don't get me wrong, I like the arm visually (it's a hell of a lot more interesting and less Matrix-y than just laying in a chair, at least) but I don't understand why it would be needed to have us experience the type of delusions and bleeding effects you're describing, since we've kinda already scratched that surface via the... Chair-nimus?

Farlander1991
05-29-2016, 04:12 PM
I guess I'm just not sure what the new Animus does that would make things functionally different for the player. I mean, haven't we already "played as Desmond" in the Animus via the White and Black Rooms without needing the arm? Don't get me wrong, I like the arm visually (it's a hell of a lot more interesting and less Matrix-y than just laying in a chair, at least) but I don't understand why it would be needed to have us experience the type of delusions and bleeding effects you're describing, since we've kinda already scratched that surface via the... Chair-nimus?

Well, for the games it doesn't matter at all what the Animus looks like, the bleeding effect happens on the level of mechanics and controls. The Assassins have eagle vision, advanced combat training, parkour skills. Desmond has none of that. The player knows that he can't do with Desmond the same thing he can do with the Assassins. But then through the Bleeding Effect, by playing as the Assassins, Desmond gains those skills. So the progression is -> Desmond can't do anything -> play as Assassin -> Desmond gains more abilities. Even though Desmond spends all his time lying on a chair, it's the interaction that sells the Bleeding Effect in the games and how the player feels it happening.

In movies you don't have mechanics or controls. How do you go through "person lies in the chair -> person looks at the past -> person learns the same skills" without that? The Matrix, for example, solves this by literally uploading knowledge into Neo's brain. That said, it affects pretty much only what Neo can do in the Matrix, because his physic attributes hasn't changed not one bit and he can't Kung Fu in the real world, and people would call ******** if he could because there was no tangible reason. But, returning to AC, by making an Animus kinetic, there's a clear line that replaces what we as players had as control and mechanics. So Callum can't do anything an Assassin can. He relives the past and while doing so repeats all the movements the Assassins do, and the knowledge to utilize that physicality is 'uploaded' to his brain while he's in the Animus. And then out of the Animus he can do everything an Assassin can, and it's all understandable.

Senningiri_GR
05-29-2016, 05:45 PM
Well, for the games it doesn't matter at all what the Animus looks like, the bleeding effect happens on the level of mechanics and controls. The Assassins have eagle vision, advanced combat training, parkour skills. Desmond has none of that. The player knows that he can't do with Desmond the same thing he can do with the Assassins. But then through the Bleeding Effect, by playing as the Assassins, Desmond gains those skills. So the progression is -> Desmond can't do anything -> play as Assassin -> Desmond gains more abilities. Even though Desmond spends all his time lying on a chair, it's the interaction that sells the Bleeding Effect in the games and how the player feels it happening.

In movies you don't have mechanics or controls. How do you go through "person lies in the chair -> person looks at the past -> person learns the same skills" without that? The Matrix, for example, solves this by literally uploading knowledge into Neo's brain. That said, it affects pretty much only what Neo can do in the Matrix, because his physic attributes hasn't changed not one bit and he can't Kung Fu in the real world, and people would call ******** if he could because there was no tangible reason. But, returning to AC, by making an Animus kinetic, there's a clear line that replaces what we as players had as control and mechanics. So Callum can't do anything an Assassin can. He relives the past and while doing so repeats all the movements the Assassins do, and the knowledge to utilize that physicality is 'uploaded' to his brain while he's in the Animus. And then out of the Animus he can do everything an Assassin can, and it's all understandable.

Let me remind you that Desmond had some training in climbing and free-roam back in Assassin's Creed 2. The general idea of the Animus was to pass the abilities of the ancestors to Desmond in his mind. Note that Desmond was fit and in the age of 26 which allows someone with the knowledge of how to do something. It was like having years to go cycling and then starting again, I suppose.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju0LQQTem_w

Also there was the Training Ground which I am not sure if it really helped... Desmond was also free roaming in Monteriggioni too. And if you look up articles for parkour and stuff like this it says that the requirement for this is to be fit.

Farlander1991
05-29-2016, 06:08 PM
Let me remind you that Desmond had some training in climbing and free-roam back in Assassin's Creed 2.

At the beginning of AC2 Desmond couldn't free run, climb, or do any battle moves other than blocking and hitting, not until he got affected by the Bleeding Effect could he do any of those things, so I don't see your point.


Note that Desmond was fit and in the age of 26 which allows someone with the knowledge of how to do something. It was like having years to go cycling and then starting again, I suppose.

Eh, not really. I had heavy physical training for about 10 years since I was 9 years old, 7 out of those years was a dancer. Years have passed, knowledge remained, and even while remaining fit there's no way I can do all the things I could back then without getting back into a consistent and heavy physical training regime. Same with Desmond, especially since in the first and beginning of the second game he is established as not having any particular physical prowess, so in reality just having the knowledge wouldn't do anything, but in a game we accept it because the controls and the abilities tied to them are the sort of 'muscle training' that works.


And if you look up articles for parkour and stuff like this it says that the requirement for this is to be fit.

"Fit" is such a broad word, though, it doesn't encompass everything that would be required.

SixKeys
05-29-2016, 08:33 PM
I guess I'm just not sure what the new Animus does that would make things functionally different for the player. I mean, haven't we already "played as Desmond" in the Animus via the White and Black Rooms without needing the arm? Don't get me wrong, I like the arm visually (it's a hell of a lot more interesting and less Matrix-y than just laying in a chair, at least) but I don't understand why it would be needed to have us experience the type of delusions and bleeding effects you're describing, since we've kinda already scratched that surface via the... Chair-nimus?

I guess my thinking is that the complaint most often heard is that MD is boring because we're just some person sat in a chair. It makes Desmond or whoever sound like they're not actually doing anything even though they're supposed to be "training" via the Animus. What sells Michael Fassbender in the trailer as a proper assassin is the fact that we see him going through intense physical training in the Animus. Even if in the games we don't spend as much time with the MD protagonist as we do with his ancestor, having the MD person actually be more active while in the Animus would make them seem cooler. It would better "sell" the idea that we're actually training in MD and becoming a proper assassin, rather than simply downloading all the information directly into our brain.

Farlander1991
05-29-2016, 08:46 PM
I guess my thinking is that the complaint most often heard is that MD is boring because we're just some person sat in a chair.

Really? Most complaints I hear/see about MD aren't about chair-sitting itself (since chair sitting is when the historical stuff happens), but what happens around it (i.e., not too much). I mean, go into all the Desmond's saga games now, change the chair to arm, and I don't think people's opinions about the MD would change in any way.

SixKeys
05-29-2016, 09:38 PM
Really? Most complaints I hear/see about MD aren't about chair-sitting itself (since chair sitting is when the historical stuff happens), but what happens around it (i.e., not too much). I mean, go into all the Desmond's saga games now, change the chair to arm, and I don't think people's opinions about the MD would change in any way.

It's not really about the chair, it's the idea of MD in general not feeling active or interactive enough. People refer to the Desmond sections as annoying interludes where all you do is walk around a bit and talk to people before diving back into the cool parts. We don't actually feel Desmond progressing as an assassin, we're simply told that he is. He spends a few sessions following his ancestors, Lucy calls him out to do some training and he's magically in top shape. He doesn't really earn the title of master assassin, which is what he's supposed to become by the end of his saga. We never really get the sense that he's progressed from a bartender to something greater. His character needed to be more driven. He spends a lot of time talking about how he never asked to be an assassin. Even Shaun comes across as more responsible, and it's literally his job to sit behind the computer and write up historical database entries. He criticizes Desmond for being "the Chosen One" whilst not actually having to do anything risky, while their assassin allies are falling in battle trying to keep the Templars at bay. People might have been more invested in his character if we saw him actually going from a lazy nobody to a highly skilled, motivated modern assassin who really does spend a lot of time training his body and mind. Having him be more interactive with the Animus could have helped there.

Just as an example, I'm thinking about the story having a scene where Shaun quips something about Desmond having the easiest job on the team and Desmond not saying anything but clearly being upset about it. At night, Lucy or whoever wakes up to odd soudns coming from the Animus room, goes to investigate, and finds Desmond strapped in an Animus arm, bouncing off of walls, doing parkour and forgoing sleep in favor of doing some intense physical training. He's clearly exhausted to the point where he's making some mistakes and falling down, but he keeps getting back up. Lucy would ask him what the heck he's doing there in the middle of the night and Desmond would tell her he's really committed to not letting anyone down. In the chair scenario something like that would be difficult - nay, impossible - to show, but in a situation where the Animus is an actual training device that requires its user to stay focused because using it is actually, physically demanding would make us believe that Desmond really is doing more than just snoozing on a couch.

Farlander1991
05-29-2016, 10:17 PM
@SixKeys, I agree with all the points you make in the first post, except of the conclusion. Could arm Animus help? Yeah, as all things can potentially help, but the 'arm' animus would help only if there weren't fundamental problems with the character to begin with. For the game it would be a polishing thing rather than 'make it work' or 'help sell the idea' thing (which it is in the movie due to the lack of interactivity as I mentioned).

You say that the example scenario would be impossible with a chair. To that, I raise the following scenario: Desmond trains in real life out of the Animus. Heck, you might even add a line there how Animus isn't enough and he needs real practice to be better. Someone might argue that this would show his determination even better, as in the Arm-nimus, you HAVE to do all those physical movements, in real life you do that because you WANT to. There, a situation at least as equal, if not better, as the one you have described, while using the chair Animus.

Animus is a tool (one that we, by the way, as players never see how it's used except a glimpse when lying down, movies have the advantage in this regard of being able to cut between modern day and past day, so I still argue that its aesthetics are important only for the believability of the bleeding effect to the passive viewer), its nature wouldn't change the nature of Desmond or the MD storylines, the problems lie elsewhere.

EDIT: Ultimately, what matters, and this applies to both situations, is to show Desmond's activity and determination beyond of what's asked of him. Both examples achieve that, and how the Animus looks like doesn't relate to that.

SixKeys
05-30-2016, 01:15 AM
@SixKeys, I agree with all the points you make in the first post, except of the conclusion. Could arm Animus help? Yeah, as all things can potentially help, but the 'arm' animus would help only if there weren't fundamental problems with the character to begin with. For the game it would be a polishing thing rather than 'make it work' or 'help sell the idea' thing (which it is in the movie due to the lack of interactivity as I mentioned).

You say that the example scenario would be impossible with a chair. To that, I raise the following scenario: Desmond trains in real life out of the Animus. Heck, you might even add a line there how Animus isn't enough and he needs real practice to be better. Someone might argue that this would show his determination even better, as in the Arm-nimus, you HAVE to do all those physical movements, in real life you do that because you WANT to. There, a situation at least as equal, if not better, as the one you have described, while using the chair Animus.

Animus is a tool (one that we, by the way, as players never see how it's used except a glimpse when lying down, movies have the advantage in this regard of being able to cut between modern day and past day, so I still argue that its aesthetics are important only for the believability of the bleeding effect to the passive viewer), its nature wouldn't change the nature of Desmond or the MD storylines, the problems lie elsewhere.

EDIT: Ultimately, what matters, and this applies to both situations, is to show Desmond's activity and determination beyond of what's asked of him. Both examples achieve that, and how the Animus looks like doesn't relate to that.

I thought about that too, and you are right, of course. I'm not suggesting that changing the chair to an arm or whatever is necessary, I just think the interactivity that we see in the movie trailer is the key to making MD more engaging overall. Whether it demands changing the Animus itself or that the MD protagonist simply spends more time outside of it being proactive. It feels like the devs have been going more and more in the direction of making the Animus practically invisible - we've gone from a futuristic Matrix chair to a run-of-the-mill VR headset. It's kind of a shame because it takes away some of the mystery and coolness surrounding the technology. IMO instead of minimizing the Animus' presence, as if they're almost afraid of including it in the games at all, they should be making it more central to the overall AC experience. It's just another element that is unique to the series and what sets it apart from any other historical game. Celebrate the inventiveness of the Animus as a framing device instead of trying to hide it like it's somehow embarrassing.

crusader_prophet
05-30-2016, 06:01 PM
I don't understand why it would be needed to have us experience the type of delusions and bleeding effects you're describing, since we've kinda already scratched that surface via the... Chair-nimus?
The arminus is not needed to sell the bleeding effect, it does not help make the concept of bleeding effect more realistic IMO. The entire concept of Animus is that it's technology is so severe and advanced that it impacts the subject's neural systems and allows the subject to "learn" or "internalize" the memories it is digging for in the genetic pool while the subject is under it's thrall. What I was trying to establish is that the impact of bleeding effect and how the players internalize that impact could be delivered in a more interesting style. Via an amalgamated reality for the test subject. Where it is more than shadowy figures and echoes from past. Where the subject wakes up and finds the memories indistinguishable between him/her to his/her ancestor. He/she can't tell which memory is their own and what is from the DNA dig-up. And that allows the subject to be able to execute the assassin-y actions and exhibit assassin-y skills even though he/she is not trained to be an assassin in present timeline. This will also allow to introduce the dangers of the Animus and why being the "chosen-one" with high conc of first civ DNA is not a good thing for the subject's personal life. There should be fallout in real life from being stuck in an advanced tech chair. Instead of making it like oh look I got kidnapped, got stuck in a chair, and now I have all these cool skills - it should introduce an aspect of danger and vulnerability to the subject. That there is a price to be paid when getting stuck in the chair and that price is that you lose sense of reality. (some of it happened w Subject 16 and Daniel Cross). This will provide a gateway for the players to empathize with the protagonist, an additional dimension to the hunt for PoE in the present day that needs to be considered by the factions.

SixKeys
05-31-2016, 04:45 PM
The arminus is not needed to sell the bleeding effect, it does not help make the concept of bleeding effect more realistic IMO. The entire concept of Animus is that it's technology is so severe and advanced that it impacts the subject's neural systems and allows the subject to "learn" or "internalize" the memories it is digging for in the genetic pool while the subject is under it's thrall. What I was trying to establish is that the impact of bleeding effect and how the players internalize that impact could be delivered in a more interesting style. Via an amalgamated reality for the test subject. Where it is more than shadowy figures and echoes from past. Where the subject wakes up and finds the memories indistinguishable between him/her to his/her ancestor. He/she can't tell which memory is their own and what is from the DNA dig-up. And that allows the subject to be able to execute the assassin-y actions and exhibit assassin-y skills even though he/she is not trained to be an assassin in present timeline. This will also allow to introduce the dangers of the Animus and why being the "chosen-one" with high conc of first civ DNA is not a good thing for the subject's personal life. There should be fallout in real life from being stuck in an advanced tech chair. Instead of making it like oh look I got kidnapped, got stuck in a chair, and now I have all these cool skills - it should introduce an aspect of danger and vulnerability to the subject. That there is a price to be paid when getting stuck in the chair and that price is that you lose sense of reality. (some of it happened w Subject 16 and Daniel Cross). This will provide a gateway for the players to empathize with the protagonist, an additional dimension to the hunt for PoE in the present day that needs to be considered by the factions.

^ This exactly. You phrased it better than I could.