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View Full Version : Online Battles: Altitude in dogfight servers?



VF-3Thunderboy
08-05-2004, 06:18 PM
The one thing I learned from CFS2 is that most online combat takes place at very low low level, most of it is below 2000 ft.- just because of the nature of the sim. This is boring, tiresome and silly after a while.

I got together a few small groups of dedicated pilots,and using add on tools (CFO), were able to start at decent, realistic altitudes, so you actually had to FLY the plane in combat, and just about everyone who participated in these high altitude (22,000+) combat scenarious LOVED THEM. How are the PF online servers going to be set up? Will a Quick Combat type scenario be an option? Will you be able to choose your altitudes in the sim?

That would make online combat much more fun. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

VF-3Thunderboy
08-05-2004, 06:18 PM
The one thing I learned from CFS2 is that most online combat takes place at very low low level, most of it is below 2000 ft.- just because of the nature of the sim. This is boring, tiresome and silly after a while.

I got together a few small groups of dedicated pilots,and using add on tools (CFO), were able to start at decent, realistic altitudes, so you actually had to FLY the plane in combat, and just about everyone who participated in these high altitude (22,000+) combat scenarious LOVED THEM. How are the PF online servers going to be set up? Will a Quick Combat type scenario be an option? Will you be able to choose your altitudes in the sim?

That would make online combat much more fun. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

IV_JG51_Razor
08-05-2004, 07:08 PM
The online DogFight servers in FB/AEP start you out on the ground unless the host has enabled air starts. I assume that PF will be the same. The experience you referred to in CFS is very similar to what you will see in most DF servers you visit in HyperLobby, however the more experienced (and sucsessful) folks will get up high and stay there, pouncing on the unwarey and returning to their perch. It's a constant battle between the quakebird mentality and the true simmer's approach. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Razor
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MEGILE
08-06-2004, 04:33 AM
When in the SpitfireIX i'll often be down on the deck in dogfight rooms mixing it up with the Bf109s and FW190s...
However most of them time I fly the P-47D27, and as a rule of thumb, when I'm cruising around looking for a fight, I set my hard deck as about 6000M...
I'll only drop lower if I see a lone prey. Generaly I'm up there all alone, but I can say my best fights have been up there when some of the LW guys do venture up there....
P-47D27 vs. TA152 at 8000M it is the best fight you'll ever have.. I love it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm hoping that the larger maps, and subsequent bigger distances between airbases will mean pilots are more likely to climb higher... I'm happy for them to stay low and be a big target, standing out against te sea http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif
But nothing beats high altitude fighting.. its kinda like jousting...

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51darkj.jpg

609IAP_Recon
08-06-2004, 05:37 AM
it would be great to let the host set that altitude.

right now it's hardcoded on dogfight servers if you do a airstart -like 1000m or something.

I'd like to spawn up at 5 or 8km

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Meshsmoother
08-06-2004, 07:51 AM
Well, when I first started on Il2 Sturmovik I did the same mistake: engaging fights at very low level, (most of the time under 1000 mts) but guess that that is part of the "learning" on the game.

When you first experience FB, you want to be there "in the mix", hunting every plane. Big mistake. Other pilots had the same thought and when you find yourself slow and on a turn at 500 mts. , there's no place to run... only a newbie will fail to make your plane into a fireball...

Then is the skill level to be awaken; beginners (including myself) find easier to fly the "turnfighters" (Yak, La, Ki) which can decently perform at low alt, but then (as in my case) you need to try a "hard to fly" a/c (like the fantastic Bf109, or the "stally" FW190) and find yourself learning from the error of trying a turnfight on it... second big mistake.

Someone then tells you "hey that is a B&Z plane !" and you start going higher (many times 3000 mts are ok since 90% of pilots are fighting below 1500) but get a little frustrated when you are about to shot and the "prey" escapes with a sharp turn, and see other pilots scores go higher than yours 10 times and there is the difference: they scored as much as they died, and you most of the times with a kill on pocket, returned home, landed, refueled and got ready for another mission.

So you start discovering another simulation experiences: Calculating required fuel, learning adjust dive speed and trimming, high deflection shots, recognition of enemy fighters profiles and formations, etc. In short, the real joy of flying a WWII fighter as Messerchsmith Bf109 was.

Recently, I've discovered how nice the "full real" is, and I've stick to this mode not even the speed bar on or labels or icons... just your instruments your eyes and evasive and attack maneuvres, to make the immersion sense deeper.

The Great Erich Hartmann said once "If the FW190 was a sabre, the Bf109 was a florett"

Regards.

Mesh.

VF-3Thunderboy
08-06-2004, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>right now it's hardcoded on dogfight servers if you do a airstart -like 1000m or something.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, that is a totally USELESS altititude! Thats why I posted. Im talking about a Quick Combat type scenarios that allow you to start at ANY altitude, and set the altitude so that you can START at say 23,000 feet for one side, and 20,000 feet for another, and respawn the WHOLE SCHEBANG after one side gets X # of kills.So this would allow you to set the enemy start distance away from you, altitude,type of planes allowed, and # of kills needed to respawn at altitude. I Guarantee that THIS is the BEST way to fly flight sims! IE: Group on Group, with a set type of plane, at high start altitudes!- This is very important, I think Im gonna work on this baby!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

IV_JG51_Razor
08-06-2004, 11:03 AM
Why not just take off, and climb to the desired altitude?!! After all, this is a flight simulation. I, for one, enjoy performing most of the tasks involved in flying these old warbirds, particularly the take offs and landings.

You can, in a coop, set your starting altitudes for all the groups to any level you want. So if it's quick combat you want, at those kinds of altitudes, then the coop is the way to go. However, once you're down, you stay down until the mission has been terminated by the host. There's no respawning as in a DF server.

Razor
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Baco-ECV56
08-06-2004, 01:51 PM
Remember this is FB´s engine and even thow it has been improved, hi altitud phisics are not har coded into the sim, so Anithing above 10,000 meters is not workig properlly.
anyhow 10.000 meters is about 30,000 feet http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Experienced dogfighters will fly away from the action till they gain a decent altitud (arround 5k to 7K Meters -above 7k you start to condensate and leave a trail of vapor- then proceed to engage enemy aircrafts... Yes it gets lonlly up there but it also gets a lot safer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

wickedpenguin
08-06-2004, 02:14 PM
The thing is, so many of the maps have the opposing bases so close to each that you simply don't get time to climb to altitude before you're forced to attack or defend yourself. Examples: the mountainous map (not the one with the big lake in the middle) and the one where there are two east/west land masses and a large body of water running north/south in the middle.

Oftentimes the enemy base is only 2 minutes flying time away and you'll already have a swarm of enemy a/c waiting to turn from a vulch into a kill.

Say you're climbing at 1500fpm to reach 15000 feet. That's 10 minutes obviously - by then the fight could most probably be right in your lap.

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Bull_dog_
08-06-2004, 05:10 PM
I'd like to see a new dogfight map with two mountains that go to 30,000 ft with runways every 5000 ft or so.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to take off at that altitude...but make the runway long if needed. Put enough distance between the two mountains and Shazaam...high altitude on line fighting....yeah baby! Fix the dive thingy and those Jugs will be the new uber planes of the sim...

Just imagine a La 7 sucking wind at 30K...that would really make my day...have to fix the Ki's high altitude performance though...it just aint right getting tracked down at 25000 ft. when flying a Mustang

VF-3Thunderboy
08-06-2004, 06:27 PM
I think they are going to try to fix the high altitude performance with this sim, from what Ive read, but who knows. All I know is that if you cant fly the sim propberly online, why make it? Corsairs REGULARLY cruised at 25,000 ft over Rabaul. Guadalcanal regular cruise altitudes (Wildcats) 24,000 feet. Mariannas Turkey shoot, from 15 to 25,000 ft.
Without altitude, you cant fly turning combat at the maximum of the planes, as turning combat reduces speed, creates drag, etc...You need LOTS of altitude.These are not jets.

It is also WAY MORE FUN to be able to fly the plane at its maxims for a longer period of time.

This is a major issue, and I hope it is addressed properly! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

VF-10_Snacky
08-08-2004, 05:11 AM
Agreed.

Nothing fustrates me more than to see a KI or LA at 8000m fly at the same performance level as they do at 2000m.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/f4ucorsr.jpg

Atomic_Marten
08-08-2004, 05:23 AM
About high alt-start that's an excellent idea. What we have now is that you have spend some time to get on high alt and that can be boring, and a little dangerous when flying LW (low fuel-especially if u don't choose full tank).

Why not take Ki-84 and climb over 7000m? There are guys online that do this. And when u are in P-47 at the same level with Ki... well u know whats gonna happen then.

I post this topic 'cause I once was riding P-47 and BnZ-ed one guy in Ki. Missed him two-three times, and he got me on alt 6500&gt;. I was diving all the way to the 1000m but could not escape him.

And yes another thought on cockpit on: whatcha guys think, does the guy flying with TIR have an advantage over guy who fly without it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

Tully__
08-08-2004, 07:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-3Thunderboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>right now it's hardcoded on dogfight servers if you do a airstart -like 1000m or something.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, that is a totally USELESS altititude! Thats why I posted. Im talking about a Quick Combat type scenarios that allow you to start at ANY altitude, and set the altitude so that you can START at say 23,000 feet for one side, and 20,000 feet for another, and respawn the WHOLE SCHEBANG after one side gets X # of kills.So this would allow you to set the enemy start distance away from you, altitude,type of planes allowed, and # of kills needed to respawn at altitude. I Guarantee that THIS is the BEST way to fly flight sims! IE: Group on Group, with a set type of plane, at high start altitudes!- This is very important, I think Im gonna work on this baby!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Assuming you can do without re-spawn during individual fights, coop servers allow this sort of thing, plus the addition of AI pilots to balance out numbers.

In DF servers, you'll nearly always find the skilled pilots at the top of the fight. The more skilled pilots in the server, the higher the average altitude.

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VF-3Thunderboy
08-08-2004, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Assuming you can do without re-spawn during individual fights, coop servers allow this sort of thing, plus the addition of AI pilots to balance out numbers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone said max alt is only 3000 Meters. (Same as CFS2) They need 30, start altitidues, and then, how do you get back up to altituded? In CFS2 we used CFO, and boom your at 30,000, the other guys are below or above you, and you get it on. (Assuming they put high alt performance in the FM this time, I think they will)

So your saying we can have an (attack) bomber mission, get the AI to fly the bombers, and either escort, or attack the bombers on servers? That would be great, can you see when the other guys AI plane is destroyed?Thanks

Tully__
08-08-2004, 11:59 AM
In coop mode, yes, you can have AI controlled bombers, you can escort or intercept according to which side you're flying, and altitudes can be set (by the mission designer) at any altitude the plane will fly at (or on the runway ready for takeoff). As I mentioned though, in this mode of play there is no respawn during a mission and players can only join prior to mission launch.

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VF-3Thunderboy
08-08-2004, 06:29 PM
Rgr that, that should do it for the most part, just restart the game after x amount of time. Bomber escorts are great fun. I would like to go through the entire Guadalcanal Air Campaign, IE: have a set # of missions, like 20, see who survives!then move on to other ops.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Where can we post missions?