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RVSage
05-05-2016, 08:27 PM
Uncharted 4 has definitely been meet with Universal critical acclaim, metacritic of 94

Here are 3 the reasons why

1. Master story telling, cohesive, engaging complete story, no attempt of shortcuts anywhere. Gameplay perfectly complements it

2. Quality given preference, No sacrifices on performance , bugs have not been reported so far

3. Great work with little details


AC has been good with point 3, always

With black flag the first point was also true

But point 2 has not been good in AC, I do not know for how long

Whichever team is working on the next AC I hope they learn from uncharted rather than Witcher 3, Witcher 3 is a great game, But Uncharted is how a action-adventure game story should be told.

Hoping next AC will be as good as Uncharted series and finally meet its true potential.

PS: AC IV and AC II are two of the greatest action-adventure games of all times to me

Assassin_M
05-05-2016, 09:35 PM
See, here's when I get confused about these "What [insert game name here] can learn from [insert other game name here]". Oftentimes, I expect these articles or threads to discuss specific design choices, mechanics, similarities between the two games but all the time, they instead talk about, firstly, very vague concepts.
Masterful story telling. What is that? What's masterful story telling?
Secondly, speculation and assumptions. How do you know there were no sacrifices to maintain performance? or even sacrifices to performance? Finally, we reach the magic button of bugs. The devs of Uncharted somehow have found and pressed the magic bug deletion button but Assassins Creed developers simply refuse to push that button for.....some odd reason.

Not trying to be condescending, but there's nothing AC can learn from Uncharted in your list. Story telling is subjective. Writers don't choose to tell sub par stories. Performance, technical aspects and bugs are EXTREMELY unpredictable. Witcher III had (And still has) TONS and TONS of bugs. Please, I beg you, all of you, don't compare bugs between a linear action adventure game to an open world game. That's just....don't do that, please.

RVSage
05-05-2016, 11:28 PM
I get your point on bugs in a linear game and open world game, I do agree story telling is subjective, My main message is that, people like really good narration, that is what naughty dog has consistently delivered,
As I said earlier Black Flag story is one of the best in AC stories, in the way it is narrated and so was AC II. But AC has not been consistent, ACU and ACS are not memorable narratives(Even if they had some nice parts)

I totally understand open world games tend to have more bugs, but again there should be a more conscious effort to iron them before release,
There are sacrifices made in every game to hit a certain performance level. Yes there are sacrifices in Uncharted. But they hit their target, ACUnity and AC Syndicate did not hit their targets.

And you are not condescending at all, As always straight to the point

LoyalACFan
05-06-2016, 12:31 AM
Apples and oranges, mate. The only part I'll go with you on, in very general terms, is the quantity over quality bit (the last few AC's have been bloated with side content while lacking a strong foundation in the main missions). But masterful storytelling... Like M said, every writer already strives for masterful storytelling. The Uncharted 4 writers are undoubtedly talented, but there's nothing specific to the Uncharted experience that could or should be ported over to AC. If anything, it's the opposite; Uncharted leans heavily on over-the-top cinematic action setpieces to set the stakes of each adventure, which is fine for a game that's essentially an Indiana Jones simulator, but it's a tactic I've been wanting AC to get away from ever since AC3.

Subject matter aside, the narrative structures of the two franchises are so vastly different that I don't think any meaningful lessons could be learned there either. Writing an Uncharted game is essentially like writing a long movie; there's one story, and the expectation is that the audience is going to power straight through it with few distractions, possibly in one sit-down. Whereas in an open-world game, you have to approach it in a fashion more like writing for a TV show; you have to sort of "chunk" the story into logical "episodes" that each tell a complete story, while simultaneously enticing the player to go on to the next one. And you have to account for the fact that almost everyone is going to be constantly distracted by other content in your own game, so you have to strive for a sense of cohesion between all of your other side missions so it doesn't feel like a disjointed and tonally uneven experience.

Besides, I think we're jumping the gun a bit since Uncharted 4 isn't even out. Personally, I thought Uncharted 3's story sucked.

SixKeys
05-06-2016, 08:35 PM
See, here's when I get confused about these "What [insert game name here] can learn from [insert other game name here]". Oftentimes, I expect these articles or threads to discuss specific design choices, mechanics, similarities between the two games but all the time, they instead talk about, firstly, very vague concepts.
Masterful story telling. What is that? What's masterful story telling?
Secondly, speculation and assumptions. How do you know there were no sacrifices to maintain performance? or even sacrifices to performance? Finally, we reach the magic button of bugs. The devs of Uncharted somehow have found and pressed the magic bug deletion button but Assassins Creed developers simply refuse to push that button for.....some odd reason.

Not trying to be condescending, but there's nothing AC can learn from Uncharted in your list. Story telling is subjective. Writers don't choose to tell sub par stories. Performance, technical aspects and bugs are EXTREMELY unpredictable. Witcher III had (And still has) TONS and TONS of bugs. Please, I beg you, all of you, don't compare bugs between a linear action adventure game to an open world game. That's just....don't do that, please.

^ This. Artists who create one or two smash hits - be it a movie, a hit song or a video game - always get asked "Why don't you guys just do what you did with that last one? That was great", as if they had a big red button in their studio that can create gold at will and they just failed to press it.

Besides, Uncharted has to deal with different problems than AC since it's a linear game. AC games always have to deal with open-world game problems like loading huge numbers of NPCs at great distances, seamless transitioning between different areas (which games like Uncharted hide with cut scenes), taking into account all the variables created by everything being climbable, crowd mechanics etc.
In AC, crowds are a dynamic element that can have a variety of reactions to your actions. There are dozens of different animations attached to these reactions. Uncharted is more like a movie where every NPC reaction is scripted. Uncharted only has a limited amount of surfaces Drake can climb, so they don't have to worry about the smoothness of controls in every terrain. AC has things like freely parkouring across moving objects like boats and carriages. In Uncharted those things are limited to separate set pieces like the train ride in UC2. Changing the tiniest thing in programming code can break something elsewhere, so the more complex elements your game has, the more difficult it will be to hunt down bugs. If you're going to compare AC to a game that does things better in some areas, at least pick one from the open-world genre.

ze_topazio
05-06-2016, 09:04 PM
All games can learn from all games.

SixKeys
05-06-2016, 10:33 PM
All games can learn from all games.

Some things, yeah, but the limitations of each game need to be taken into consideration. You can't say "why doesn't Wii Sports have better graphics like Uncharted?".

ze_topazio
05-07-2016, 12:07 AM
Sure, one can, obviously, look at specific things, but I was talking more in an abstract way.

Ureh
05-07-2016, 05:38 AM
To add to what has already been said, I guess you could also say one of the strengths of the storytelling in the Uncharted series is that there are quite a few recurring characters. After a few games their faces become more familiar, you see them talking and laughing together and aiding each other nearly after every gunfight, and even when there are gaps in the story the audience can just accept it and move on. Examples: before the events of U3, Drake and Elena apparently had a huge fight and split up (maybe even divorced?). Most people will probably wish that this was shown but we know enough about the characters and experienced so much with them that it can be pretty easy to fill in the blanks yourself (not to mention, the two reunite at the end so why does it matter that they broke up off-screen, right?!). In U2, Elena was standing right next to a grenade, she's bleeding from all the shrapnel, but later she's totally fine. Did Drake get some of that tree sap for Elena... did Tenzin's village have a surgeon... maybe she's like Drake and her hitpoints regenerate over time? Drake being able to walk through the Rub’al Khali seems hard to believe but most people just along with it. Maybe we’re not meant to take the story too seriously or maybe they want us to come up with our own explanations.

On the other hand, you've got quite a few standalone characters in the AC series, you never really get to bond with them and we usually don't see how their relationships with other characters develop. When we do get interactions between characters it usually isn’t until a few hours later that those characters interact with each other again. Ex: For Connor and his recruits, we only get 2-3 side missions with them, maybe 4-5 dialogue prompts per recruit, but most of all it’s mostly optional. Same goes for most of the Homestead. Achilles is mostly relegated to cutscenes, otherwise you can only watch him take strolls, nap, and play board games. Connor and his mother barely got any time together before it all ends. Adewale despite being Edward's first mate doesn't really get much cutscene time even though I got the feeling that they’re supposed to be brothas. The relationship between Arno and Elise – despite being one of the central story elements – felt incomplete to me. Part of that feeling might’ve been intended by the developers but I thought the biggest gap is after their first meeting and when Elise returns from Paris. I think this friendship and eventually their love for each other grew off-screen – such as the story of the dog-infested orchard - we only get to see the final years of it. The closest that AC ever comes to recurring, blooming relationship – that I can think of atm - between characters is Ezio and Leonardo. And a little bit of the bond between Ezio and Cristina.

Lots of elements in the AC stories are a bit harder to overlook too. Years of events are fast forwarded (baby ezio to 16 yr old version, 2 years missing here, a year there, months passing by in a few blinks, etc) either for the sake of brevity or for lore reasons – the animus is skipping some of the non-essential memories. Or we get scenarios that are harder to accept because the stories in AC feel more serious, they’re supposed to be a tale of “here’s what really happened in history”. It’s fiction but it’s also based on crucial events in our history so they’re bound to get quite a few people unsatisfied or upset. Also remember two of the examples mentioned before (the grenade and Elena, and Nate walking through a desert without water or a compass)? When an AC games does those kind of things with their character(s) it would stand out like a sore thumb. If Ezio gets stabbed, gets thrown off a cliff, enters a slugfest while plummeting down a cliff, or Connor gets impaled then travels for miles upon miles without aid… some people will probably be like, “No way!” Or when Ezio allows Mario march into a futile battle with the apple, some will be like, “No, don’t do that!” Perhaps when Ezio or Connor go on top secret missions they shouldn’t announce their arrival (ex: Ezio revealing himself to Lucrezia which allows her to call for guards, Connor and the map fragment). Sure, those moments are funny but it also wasn't sensible. Drake can fall flat on his face in front of a bunch of evil henchmen, say something funny, then proceed to mow them all down without receiving awkward looks from the audience. And of course the present day events can be over the top and weird too (Desmond walking into Abstergo and waving an artifact around, and underdeveloped gameplay despite being linear, just to name a few).

Another example of storytelling in smaller, more linear environments are the short puzzles in U3's chateau. You've got Sully standing there and offering some verbal hints and pointers, and you've got a journal that pretty much spells out how to solve the puzzle. Whereas in AC, a good chunk of the puzzles are optional and they make you read database entries, jog your memory of the city's monuments, and there're no companions telling you how you should rotate that puzzle thingy or how you should jump there. So when Drake solves that platforming puzzle to enter the map room, most people will probably be satisfied, not too frustrated, and be able continue the story or enter the next fight. But when Ezio or Arno are platforming in tombs or solving puzzles… most people will think some of those set pieces are cool but it also required them to go out of their way to do it and for a reward that can be unsatisfying.

Anyway… like others have mentioned, the stories in AC need a lot of time and plenty of love.

VestigialLlama4
05-07-2016, 06:14 AM
About the things that AC can learn from Uncharted is make their linear missions and their action sequences as exciting and tense as the Uncharted chase sequences.

The rest well there's not much to offer. Uncharted 4 is a non-stop action movie, Assassin's Creed is at different points a spy movie, a heist movie, a thriller, a political thriller and historical drama. There is a greater variation of tone, style and theme in AC than in Uncharted, bigger cast of characters, bigger stakes, whereas Uncharted has the same three characters from the first game.

If anything it is Uncharted that should learn from Assassin's Creed. Like you can compare Nathan Drake's particular type, this roguish hero to characters like Edward Kenway and Edward is a better and more interesting, more critical take on that character. Nathan Drake is a callous exploitative sociopath who has to simply apologize and his BS gets forgiven, whereas Edward has his wife leaving him, his friends abandoning him and no amount of apologies can bring back what he has lost.

And of course Uncharted 4's interest in pirate history rather obviously follows on the trail of Black Flag.

I-Like-Pie45
05-07-2016, 05:45 PM
See, here's when I get confused about these "What [insert game name here] can learn from [insert other game name here]". Oftentimes, I expect these articles or threads to discuss specific design choices, mechanics, similarities between the two games but all the time, they instead talk about, firstly, very vague concepts.
Masterful story telling. What is that? What's masterful story telling?
Secondly, speculation and assumptions. How do you know there were no sacrifices to maintain performance? or even sacrifices to performance? Finally, we reach the magic button of bugs. The devs of Uncharted somehow have found and pressed the magic bug deletion button but Assassins Creed developers simply refuse to push that button for.....some odd reason.

Not trying to be condescending, but there's nothing AC can learn from Uncharted in your list. Story telling is subjective. Writers don't choose to tell sub par stories. Performance, technical aspects and bugs are EXTREMELY unpredictable. Witcher III had (And still has) TONS and TONS of bugs. Please, I beg you, all of you, don't compare bugs between a linear action adventure game to an open world game. That's just....don't do that, please.

its like the people on gta forums who complain that the forests in gta 5 don't look at good as the forest in alan wake

Megas_Doux
05-07-2016, 07:36 PM
About the things that AC can learn from Uncharted is make their linear missions and their action sequences as exciting and tense as the Uncharted chase sequences.

.

This!!!!

I would also add the always top notch VA of that franchise.

VestigialLlama4
05-08-2016, 06:19 AM
This!!!!

I would also add the always top notch VA of that franchise.

Well all of Uncharted's characters are American whereas most of the time in AC games you aren't playing Americans. The only major American player character is a Mohawk boy who speaks English as a second language. So the voice acting and casting doesn't have the additional challenges of accents/languages/period slang. So Uncharted can focus on deeper, more subtle and personal characterization in their VA.

Fundamentally, AC is playing for bigger stakes than Uncharted are.

Megas_Doux
05-08-2016, 04:11 PM
Well all of Uncharted's characters are American whereas most of the time in AC games you aren't playing Americans. The only major American player character is a Mohawk boy who speaks English as a second language. So the voice acting and casting doesn't have the additional challenges of accents/languages/period slang. So Uncharted can focus on deeper, more subtle and personal characterization in their VA.

Fundamentally, AC is playing for bigger stakes than Uncharted are.

Which is why, amongst other reasons, I prefer actor's natural voices over the many times goofy accents.

crusader_prophet
05-08-2016, 07:13 PM
Here's what AC developers can in general learn from ND. The relentless commitment towards iterative improvements in order to surpass their own set standards.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a2chkYgBGQ&feature=youtu.be

Other than that, UC and AC series are vastly different and delivery style cannot be compared. And I pretty much echo every point previous posts have made regarding how disparate these two franchises are.

AdrianJacek
05-08-2016, 07:13 PM
Which is why, amongst other reasons, I prefer actor's natural voices over the many times goofy accents.

Oh, you mean how they did that in Unity? And even in AC1 with Phil Shahbaz? :P
---
Also a funny thing from TV Tropes:
Reality Is Unrealistic: When including ACII on its list on the top 10 games of 2009, TIME criticized how the voice acting was a cheesy attempt at sounding Italian. Many of the game's voice actors actually are Italian, and the ones who weren't were coached by Italians to ensure authenticity (and unlike other North American games that may have only English, French and Spanish voice options, there's an Italian voice language option). The accent coaches are even credited along with the voice actors.
---
I would actually prefer if ALL the voice acting in AC was the genuine article - Italian for Italians, French for Frenchies etc. I LOOOOVED all the Kanien'kehá:ka scenes in AC3. Those were dope.
On the opposite side of the spectrum we have AC3 Liberation with its horrendous French accents. Hey, maybe that game's the reason why everyone in Unity sounds British.

Wolfenstein The New Order was awesome in that department (the genuine language department, not the fake French accent one) - there was plenty of really, REALLY good German and Polish in that game.
But I suppose having most of a game like that is just not mainstream enough. Linguaphiles like me are quite a tiny chunk of the market.
And I KNOW I can just play some of ACs in those languages BUT! But those languages are not always available (e.g. Revelations). Also it annoys me to hear the Present Day dialogue not in English.

VestigialLlama4
05-08-2016, 07:37 PM
Which is why, amongst other reasons, I prefer actor's natural voices over the many times goofy accents.

Well if that's the case then you will only have Americans in games. Ideally yes Ubisoft should put all the games in subtitles but their shareholders will never back that title, and it would be hard for it to get a global audience. It's basically a losing battle but it's a necessary compromise if you want to tell different kinds of stories in the mainstream gaming market.

The other option is selling eternal Aryan fantasies like the Uncharted games.


Here's what AC developers can in general learn from ND. The relentless commitment towards iterative improvements in order to surpass their own set standards.

All developers will say the same things in promotional videos. It's fairly trite and obvious. And nothing against Uncharted 4, it's a very charming and interesting game, very obviously inspired by Assassin's Creed Black Flag for its digging up of Pirate Lore...but that game is a very sentimental story and goes too easy on its characters.


Wolfenstein The New Order was awesome in that department (the genuine language department, not the fake French accent one) - there was plenty of really, REALLY good German and Polish in that game.

That's not really much to write home about. In that game the use of language is part of the usual set of stereotypes of World War II...it's part of that game's ugly Nazi fetish.

AdrianJacek
05-08-2016, 07:51 PM
Here's what AC developers can in general learn from ND. The relentless commitment towards iterative improvements in order to surpass their own set standards.

Boy, that marketing campaign sure does wonders, doesn't it?

SixKeys
05-08-2016, 11:52 PM
Oh, you mean how they did that in Unity? And even in AC1 with Phil Shahbaz? :P

Unity didn't do that, though. Unity used fake accents too, since most of the actors weren't actually British. Wouldn't it be better if instead of having to fake historical accents of any kind, actors could just use their natural accents? The only reason Philip Shahbaz gets lambasted for the accent is because he was the ONLY one who didn't have a Middle-Eastern one, and it wasn't his fault but the director's. If all the actors in AC1 had been American, I wouldn't have minded all of them having American accents.


Well if that's the case then you will only have Americans in games. Ideally yes Ubisoft should put all the games in subtitles but their shareholders will never back that title, and it would be hard for it to get a global audience. It's basically a losing battle but it's a necessary compromise if you want to tell different kinds of stories in the mainstream gaming market.

Because they've had such diversity in casting non-Americans so far? :rolleyes: I think AC3, AC4 and Syndicate are the only ones to have used people from many different backgrounds that matched their respective characters (Anne being Irish etc.). None of the cast in the Ezio games were actually Italian or Turkish, none of the cast in AC1 were Middle-Eastern. The one person who could have successfully passed for one due to his upbringing was Philip Shahbaz and they told him to sound more American. AC4 and Syndicate "get away" with their main casting (who re all excellent in their own right) because Americans aren't averse to British accents in their entertainment, especially in historical context. If the next game is set in Egypt, how much are you willing to bet that their main character will be an Egyptian dude voiced by an American or someone who will put on a British accent, instead of an actual Egyptian? Let's not pretend Ubi are any more or less inclusive in their casting than other game companies. If you're going to call them out for making a French-Canadian actor sound British in Unity, then you should be just as eager to call them out on casting an American guy as a fake Italian.

Assassin_M
05-09-2016, 03:08 AM
None of the cast in AC1 were Middle-Eastern.
Malik's VA was Lebanese. Tamir's VA was Jordanian.

It's not a lot but it's pretty fair.

VestigialLlama4
05-09-2016, 03:11 AM
Because they've had such diversity in casting non-Americans so far?

That's not what I said. When I said "only Americans in the game" I am talking of setting/characters/plot not the voice actors. Altair, Ezio, Haytham, Edward, Shay, Arno, Jacob and Evie are all non-Americans. The voice-actors and their nationality is only of marginal relevance and importance when one discusses the content.

The only American is Connor and well he's not really mainstream American, at least to the majority of the Aryan gaming community he isn't. Assassin's Creed is actuall exceptional for presenting some international vision in the gaming landscape. Their recent games have started backsliding by featuring White Anglo-looking and White Anglo-sounding yes, but the original games are fairly diverse, so much so that when Blonde Edward arrived, he felt different. The Uncharted games have three Americans traipsing around South America, Nepal, Borneo and Yemen and stealing and destroying archaeological treasures of other countries.

Again it's about relative standards and not absolute standards. You can't praise Uncharted's VA as better than AC's, which it is in many respects, while ignoring the fact that the games are far simpler on a plot and conceptual level than Assassin's Creed, or ignoring the fact that the majority of characters in the AC games aren't contemporary Americans like Uncharted, and so easier to focus and do well, whereas in AC there is this whole issue of language and how to communicate that the Uncharted folks don't have to think about too much.


If you're going to call them out for making a French-Canadian actor sound British in Unity, then you should be just as eager to call them out on casting an American guy as a fake Italian.

Nope. Because there was an aesthetic purpose in making Ezio Italianate because obviously PD wanted to put across the sense of Italian culture of which the Italian language and its distinct sounds is a great part of appeal. Making Dan Jeannot, who can speak French and French-Accented English, sound BBC solely because they were afraid of pepe le pew jokes is stupid. Remember at the end of the day, people made fun of Arno's accent far more than they ever did Ezio's because they had more confidence doing the latter than the former.

Assassin_M
05-09-2016, 03:27 AM
Again it's about relative standards and not absolute standards. You can't praise Uncharted's VA as better than AC's, which it is in many respects, while ignoring the fact that the games are far simpler on a plot and conceptual level than Assassin's Creed, or ignoring the fact that the majority of characters in the AC games aren't contemporary Americans like Uncharted, and so easier to focus and do well, whereas in AC there is this whole issue of language and how to communicate that the Uncharted folks don't have to think about too much.



Nope. Because there was an aesthetic purpose in making Ezio Italianate because obviously PD wanted to put across the sense of Italian culture of which the Italian language and its distinct sounds is a great part of appeal. Making Dan Jeannot, who can speak French and French-Accented English, sound BBC solely because they were afraid of pepe le pew jokes is stupid. Remember at the end of the day, people made fun of Arno's accent far more than they ever did Ezio's because they had more confidence doing the latter than the former.

I bet people find it fascinating that you can both rip AC to shreds and praise it for what it does right and better all in the same post without ever sounding biased towards either position. Nice.

VestigialLlama4
05-09-2016, 03:46 AM
I bet people find it fascinating that you can both rip AC to shreds and praise it for what it does right and better all in the same post without ever sounding biased towards either position. Nice.

I try to be objective. I post solely on the AC forums because the games tap a vein of a multitude of interests and it aspires to higher standards than other games so I criticize the games from a place of real love and appreciation of what it was at the start and what it tried to be until AC3-Black Flag.

I don't dream of going to the Uncharted forums and making fun of White Male Lead or mocking American exceptionalism, because I know the kind of fans that game has. The same ones that make anti-semitic slurs (http://gearnuke.com/amy-hennig-worked-uncharted-4-two-years-theres-lot-still/) to the director of Uncharted 4 upon it's release. The games work on the whole Indiana Jones fantasy of archaeology about rich American aryans travelling the world and uncovering treasure...never mind that in the real history of the 20th Century, the actually great archeaological discoveries were made by non-American peasants like the Greek fisherman who found the Antikythera Mechanism or the Bedouin shepherds who found the Dead Sea Scrolls, or the poor Chinese farmers who discovered the Terracotta Army.

But then that's how American pop culture works, whether it's removing the Soviets and their sacrifices from World War 2 games or ignoring other people's contributions to history. Assassin's Creed deserves a lot of credit for being the first games that try and avert this. They do it by making some commercial compromises which to me are fine as long as it serves the greater good of its overall goals.

SixKeys
05-09-2016, 04:15 AM
That's not what I said. When I said "only Americans in the game" I am talking of setting/characters/plot not the voice actors. Altair, Ezio, Haytham, Edward, Shay, Arno, Jacob and Evie are all non-Americans. The voice-actors and their nationality is only of marginal relevance and importance when one discusses the content.

It's not marginal relevance if they're reducing all these different cultures to nothing more than fake accents. It's basically saying "we don't need to cast actual people from these cultures for an accurate portrayal". They hire Roger Craig Smith and allow him to mix in Spanish (which he admitted) when he's supposed to sound Italian. They hire Cas Anvar and have him put on an accent that sounds more Mexican than Middle-Eastern instead of just hiring Philip Shabaz and allowing him to use an authentic Iranian accent. How the hell is that any better than making Dan Jeannotte put on a BBC accent? It's basically telling us non-Americans "lol, you guys sound funny, here, let me do a bad impression". Like, okay, go ahead but you don't get to complain when it's YOUR culture that's not being portrayed authentically. And be aware that to non-Americans an out-of-place British accent is no more offensive or stupid than an out-of-place Mexican accent in a Syrian setting.



The only American is Connor and well he's not really mainstream American, at least to the majority of the Aryan gaming community he isn't. Assassin's Creed is actuall exceptional for presenting some international vision in the gaming landscape. Their recent games have started backsliding by featuring White Anglo-looking and White Anglo-sounding yes, but the original games are fairly diverse, so much so that when Blonde Edward arrived, he felt different.

Citation needed, lol. To me Edward didn't feel any different from Haytham and Ezio who dominated their respective games.


Nope. Because there was an aesthetic purpose in making Ezio Italianate because obviously PD wanted to put across the sense of Italian culture of which the Italian language and its distinct sounds is a great part of appeal. Making Dan Jeannot, who can speak French and French-Accented English, sound BBC solely because they were afraid of pepe le pew jokes is stupid. Remember at the end of the day, people made fun of Arno's accent far more than they ever did Ezio's because they had more confidence doing the latter than the former.

I simply don't understand that attitude. To me having a fake Italian accent vs. a fake British accent is just as ridiculous. People only like it because they are used to having characters in their entertainment with silly accents - like Germans in WW2 movies who zpeak like ziss - be "code" for speaking the actual language. As long as you give everyone the same accent, i.e. make it consistent, I don't care if the character sounds fake-Italian or fake-British. But they are both equally silly as a means of portraying different cultures. Just let your actors use the accent that comes most naturally to them.

VestigialLlama4
05-09-2016, 05:02 AM
It's not marginal relevance if they're reducing all these different cultures to nothing more than fake accents.

Would you prefer them not showing these different cultures at all? In an ideal world the idea of "If you don't get it right don't do it" would be fair, but in the real world if you have a vision of a game that challenges the Aryan hegemony and you didn't have something that made it accessible or audience friendly, you will not get money. Okay you can make it a small independent game but then say goodbye to budgets that can show the open-worlds of AC cities. Those accents and other compromises make the latter possible.


It's basically saying "we don't need to cast actual people from these cultures for an accurate portrayal".

No it's basically saying we need to make some amount of compromise to get this game a wide audience. Assassin's Creed games are made for a largely western audience. The population of the people in Syria and the Middle East is much smaller than the population of America and Western Europe combined. Movies make this compromise all the time. Like one of the greatest Italian films ever made was The Leopard, an epic movie about Italy's unification and it stars an American actor Burt Lancaster as a Sicilian aristocrat. He's dubbed in the film (in the fashion of Italian films of that era). But the movie's vastly bigger budget and scale would never have happened if it didn't have an international star. So the director made the compromise and the film is highly appreciated even today. There are many other European films, often Italian films on the same order.

In games you can have an Italian or Arab looking model, and it's the voice that is different. So to me it's an inversion of the same situation.


How the hell is that any better than making Dan Jeannotte put on a BBC accent?

Because

1) The Italian/Syrian/Turkish/Mohawk accents give the illusion that you are in another culture, it insperses actual words and phrases alongside English, and it imprints the character within a culture. Like Ezio sounds like his fellow NPCs and so on and so forth. Arno speaks BBC, the NPCs of Unity's open world speak French, so to me Arno is ''different'' and ''apart'' from the people. I don't feel like a Frenchman in France, I feel like a fascist Englishman in France, looking down on the filthy rabble beneath me.

2) If you want a game to be accessible in English, that's okay in theory. Why BBC English? Why not have them speak American? Today's international superpower is America, not England. It has a population 5 times greater than England and so a market 5 times greater. To me the fallacy of this special reverence for British accents as a source of refinement and legitimacy is pathetic and that's why I dock points for that, because after making such a bland compromised product like Unity the developers still want fancy and pretentious appeal.


Just let your actors use the accent that comes most naturally to them.

Putting on a fake accent is 90% of the reason why actors become actors and why VA's become VA's. It's fun and it's a device in itself. To some extent all actors put on accents anyway by varying pitch and stress and so on. Like Nolan North, Nathan Drake himself, puts on a Cockney accent for Penguin in the Batman Arkham games and he has a total blast playing a Guy Ritchie spoof.

For storytellers it's a handy device to immerse you in another culture. In the Ezio games, the Italianate sounding accents and language, i.e referring to cities and places by their Italian names (Firenze rather than Florence) makes you feel like this place is your home rather then you are a tourist. It simply wouldn't have the same quality with English accents. And you know the complaints about the Italian accents, well remember that Italy has multiple regional dialects, their own cinema dubs Italian actors for RAI (i.e. Italy's BBC) and remove regionalisms. So if we are to judge AC2's Italian accents for authenticity (which it wasn't trying to do) then I would like to know exactly what standards we are measuring it against.

Helforsite
05-09-2016, 07:40 AM
Most people - even critics - have an idea in their head how a specific accent has to sound like but its almost always different from what the accent really sounds like.
As a German I see this most often in movies where Germans always have that 'German' accent and I am sorry to tell you that it we Germans do not actually sound like that even if those critics say that the accent was authentic.

VestigialLlama4
05-09-2016, 08:37 AM
Most people - even critics - have an idea in their head how a specific accent has to sound like but its almost always different from what the accent really sounds like.
As a German I see this most often in movies where Germans always have that 'German' accent and I am sorry to tell you that it we Germans do not actually sound like that even if those critics say that the accent was authentic.

The thing is accents in most cases are based on a set of fixed stereotypes. Like Italian accents are based on opera and mob movie stereotypes. Never mind that the mafia was Siclian and Italian opera is not really how conversational Italian is supposed to sound like.

French accents in Anglophone are based on the actors Maurice Chevalier and Charles Boyer (of whom Pepe le Pew is a spoof of).

Now the accents in Ezio's game are based on Italian movies of the 60s, mostly a lot of comedy movies as admitted by Patrice Desilets (he mentioned Ettore Scola).

The important thing is function. The accents have to serve a clear function, either aesthetic/narrative/style. In the earlier games, the idea was to immerse you in another culture and time and place and that feeling of being an Italian among Italians. The mix of Italian and English is similar to the film The Kremlin Letter by John Huston where each scene began in unsubtited Russian but English was slipped in so as to give you that illusion of foreign culture while still being understandable.

In Unity, the BBC accents didn't work because there was no aesthetic or narrative or style conveyed by the accents. It was distracting and it took you out of the game.

ze_topazio
05-09-2016, 01:27 PM
I don't dream of going to the Uncharted forums and making fun of White Male Lead or mocking American exceptionalism, because I know the kind of fans that game has. The same ones that make anti-semitic slurs (http://gearnuke.com/amy-hennig-worked-uncharted-4-two-years-theres-lot-still/) to the director of Uncharted 4 upon it's release.

That guy doesn't look neither white nor American though.

Markaccus
05-09-2016, 02:47 PM
The one thing that really hit me all those years ago when AC1 came out, was how out of place Altairs voice was compared to the setting. It is certainly at least as miss placed as having arno speak in an english accent. (Not sure why it makes you feel facist, VL!?!?). It can never be wrong in one instance, but ok in another because <insert reason that justifies point of view>. That simply is not balanced.

Mr.Black24
05-09-2016, 02:49 PM
In Unity, the BBC accents didn't work because there was no aesthetic or narrative or style conveyed by the accents. It was distracting and it took you out of the game. Ya know I just thought of something...we all know that a french accent wasn't used as apparently no one respects it anymore for some odd reason.

Well lets say for instance that there was a sequel announced for Connor,Shay,Arno, and Aveline, how will Arno's accents fit? I mean Shay will have his irish accent, Connor will retain his native accent and tone, Aveline has her southern french accent....but the french Assassin Arno will have his british accent?

Wouldn't that be very noticeable and out of place?

Markaccus
05-09-2016, 03:19 PM
I should point out that I don't expect accents to be EXACT to the local dialect, there is a line that cant realistically be crossed in main stream entertainment due to availability of authentic acting stock. Having an iranian accent where it should be more syrian, for example, is something we probably have to live with, but at least it's closer than a north American voice. If you have to fake an accent, at least try not to make it too steriotypical (its-a me! Maaario, although that was an intended joke). Even then, steriotypes are still better than having a frenchman speak estuary-english

VestigialLlama4
05-09-2016, 03:42 PM
The one thing that really hit me all those years ago when AC1 came out, was how out of place Altairs voice was compared to the setting. It is certainly at least as miss placed as having arno speak in an english accent.

Well in that case the point was that Altair and Desmond form a bond, as justified in Animus and in game. And since they want the character to be accessible to a contemporary audience they have him speak American. This has the double effect of making Altair stand out and communicate clearly with the Saracens (who are accented) and the Crusaders (who are authentically speaking wonderful French-accented English because Richard Coeur de Lion barely spoke any English in his life). So the aesthetic and style works there.


That simply is not balanced.

It isn't balanced because there is no universal standard for accents. It depends on aesthetic/style and vision. Like Mel Gibson's ''The Passion of the Christ'' has Aramaic and Latin for reasons of "authenticity". It's accessible because that story is very well known and obviously Gibson's style is quite...ahem...visceral. But linguistically it's a joke because Aramaic is a dead language with pronounciations lost to time. Aramaic speakers of the 1st Century would find the film gibberish becaue the accents are pure guesswork. Then as far as authenticity goes threre should be more Greek in that movie because that was the English of the day, the language Romans and Judeans used to communicate with each other. Heck, the oldest version of the New Testament is written in Athenian Greek dialect, and not Aramaic or Hebrew, albeit with one or two phrases thrown in the book. Fundamentally, Mel Gibson's movie is about as authentic as Assassin's Creed Unity in approach to accents but he has the appearance of authenticity.

In Unity, the use of English accents creates a lot of unfortunate subtexts. Like Pierre Bellec the rebellious and crazy Assassin speaks like a lower-class Englishman while the other Assassins and our hero Arno speaks like upper-class RP English. The Sans Cullote bad guys you fight also speak like English thugs, so the message you are getting is some fancy aristos beating up the poor. Now if they had used American accents that would not have come across to the same extent, because the normal American accents don't have the sharp class biases and distinctions and additional baggage. Like if they made Arno sound like Nathan Drake, Elise like Elena and Pierre Bellec like Sully, you would not necessarily see them in terms of class. But in the game that is what happens.

Not using accents at all also leads to the loss of crucial features. Like Napoleon in the game speaks like a Sandhurst graduate, the real Napoleon spoke French with a thick Corsican accent and when he made diplomatic deals the Russian Czar said that he spoke better French then him. Napoleon in Unity should sound like Ezio Auditore because it could convey how sudden and shocking his rise to power was in France and it's an attempt at authenticity that other Napoleon portrayals rarely tackle.


Well lets say for instance that there was a sequel announced for Connor,Shay,Arno, and Aveline, how will Arno's accents fit? I mean Shay will have his irish accent, Connor will retain his native accent and tone, Aveline has her southern french accent....but the french Assassin Arno will have his british accent?

Wouldn't that be very noticeable and out of place?

That's more or less Altair-In-Revelations. After Ezio's Italianate accents and hearing the Turkish accents in that game, they felt they had to give Altair an accent to make him stand out. Or it would compromise realism.

Markaccus
05-09-2016, 04:08 PM
Well in that case the point was that Altair and Desmond form a bond, as justified in Animus and in game. And since they want the character to be accessible to a contemporary audience they have him speak American. This has the double effect of making Altair stand out and communicate clearly with the Saracens (who are accented) and the Crusaders (who are authentically speaking wonderful French-accented English because Richard Coeur de Lion barely spoke any English in his life). So the aesthetic and style works there.

So if we are going to have the accent of the person in the animus rather than the person whos memories they are re living, how come ezio and connor did not use the same VA? I happen to think it sounded stupid having altair as an american, and it's lucky for me that I don't find accents game breaking, because if I did, I might never have become such a fan of AC.

As for the whole Unity thing.... criminals of the time period (in the main) had more "working class accents" due to being poor. Given that the "patriots" in the game were using criminal tactics to get their way, then i understand why ubi did it.... however, i do not think that it would be different in feeling if they had used "posh" french for arno, and "common" french for the "baddies". That is still creating a class devide between arno and them. So, despite it being all wrong having english accents, and just as stupid imo, it isn't responsible for the apparent class divide....that would have been there regardless of the accent used. Look at syndicate... D1ckensian steriotype accents everywhere, but because it's Victorian London, the obvious class divide is accepted, because that is BASICALLY how it was (there is always exageration or understatement in various facets).

Edit:- it wont let me type D1ckensian properly because it thinks i am swearing

VestigialLlama4
05-09-2016, 04:42 PM
So if we are going to have the accent of the person in the animus rather than the person whos memories they are re living, how come ezio and connor did not use the same VA?

Doylist explanation, AC1's Animus was in Abstergo so they dumbed down the accent because they don't care about culture. AC2 and AC3's Animus was Assassin and since they respect other cultures, they put in the extra care and attention to detail. As fo UNITY and Syndicate, that is the Assassins hacking Abstergo's own tech and using it against them so there it is. But ultimately I think it's a question of style and what they are trying to do in each game. In AC1 the idea was to make the Crusades feel contemporary and approach the past authentically but not with the solemnity of hollywood epics, also to remove the religious elements from the Crusades, so Jesper Kyd's techno-themed music is part of that. Having Altair sound like an American but pronouncing Arab names and words correctly with right intonation makes him accessible. You see Altair as a guy and a character rather than a cultist. AC2 and Brotherhood are very much this idea of Italy and Italian culture, and you have this sense of being Italian...Revelations is a celebration of multiculturalism so having multiple accents works there. That's a game whose message would fail if they all sounded like BBC rejects.

AC3 and Black Flag because it's the first two games in the Anglophone, you have realism, so you have Connor speaking English as a second language in a textbook fashion without contractions, you have Haytham a New World transplant in his mid-20s speaking like an aristocrat Londoner. Syndicate likewise is this kind of Guy Ritchie and MTV version of London so the approach they take to character fits that style. Unity doesn't have that really. It doesn't have a unified style.


i do not think that it would be different in feeling if they had used "posh" french for arno, and "common" french for the "baddies". That is still creating a class devide between arno and them.

Not quite. See from a French perspective, Arno is not Parisien. He grew up in Versailles all his life and comes to Paris at the start of the game, so his accent would be mocked by Parisiens because Parisiens see their French accent as the best (and god-damn-them they are right). So Arno would be a bit of an outsider in Paris regardless. At the time of the revolution the fight was between the aristocrats and everyone else. So Arno would have to learn to drop certain phrases and modes of address. Instead of Tu and Vous, he would do what people did in the Revolution and use the tu for all occassions formal and informal. Also he would have to drop certain religious phrases and expressions, start calling Mr and Mrs X Citoyen and Citoyenne X. In France the accent divide is not quite on class lines as it is in English. English accents have that unique history and baggage of associations which makes it quite stark and easily recognizable. Accents in other countries would vary because of different experiences.

An accurate Italian-language and Italian-accented Ezio games, would be Ezio spending some time adjusting to dialect shifts between Florence and Venice. And then learn a new vocabulary for Roma.

The big mystery to me is what language is being spoken in Revelations? Ezio communicates to Yusuf, Suleiman, Prince Ahmet, Tarik Barleti and Manuel Palaialogos. Is he speaking Turkish? Italian? Greek? All three?

Markaccus
05-09-2016, 04:46 PM
Forgot to comment on the mel gibson thing... iy's not really the same discussion, because we are talking about English Language with accents pertinent to, or at least close, to the game setting, wheras Gibbos Jesus film was actually made in two dead languages. Thats kind of extreme by any standards!

These days we frequently have Korean actors playing Japanese characters (for example)...... this is still way better than having David Caradine (spell check) playing a chinaman, when there was a perfectly good Bruce Lee hanging around.

Mr.Black24
05-09-2016, 04:47 PM
That's more or less Altair-In-Revelations. After Ezio's Italianate accents and hearing the Turkish accents in that game, they felt they had to give Altair an accent to make him stand out. Or it would compromise realism.

So than you think they'll give Arno a french accent in a quad-sequel instead of that "BBC" accent which you despise so...

On another note; No lie I would love to hear a wildlife documentary narrated from Dan himself.

VestigialLlama4
05-09-2016, 05:08 PM
So than you think they'll give Arno a french accent in a quad-sequel instead of that "BBC" accent which you despise so...

1) If it's a small role like Altair-in-Revelations, 2) If they make the game which they won't.

Sushiglutton
05-09-2016, 05:25 PM
What I think ND does much better (haven't played AC:U/S maybe Ubi has improved) is to understand what a certain sequence is about and then use various tools to support that emotion, rather than forcing stuff that doesn't belong and ruin everything. I just replayed AC3. That game is a like a test chart of various ways to destroy a scene. Again and again the game sets up emotional/exciting moments and then trips on itself. Really clunky mechanics, artificial elements (like timers), mindlessly chosen optional objectives and so on. It's like someone was actively trying to troll the game. ND are much more thoughtful and careful when they design their campaigns. I feel much more in tune with the emotion I think the game is trying to convey and there are much fewer elements that will break the spell.

It's obviously not one magic bullet that is the difference, there's a lot of polish/playtesting/hard work etc. But I do think ND has a much better attitude to what they wanna accomplish in terms of focusing on the experience rather than to force gamey elements just because "it's a game". AC has been so heavy handed in comparison.

Markaccus
05-09-2016, 05:26 PM
See, you are kind of using technical reasons to justify it in AC1. Honestly, it just doesn't fly with me. It sounded totally out of place. AC1 and Unity both are equally guilty of the same crime.... the only alowance i would make for AC1 is that it was the first game. Unity has NO EXCUSE! But that game failled in many aspects. Maybe the reasons you put forward about using certain french accents made life a bit to complicated (since they were rushing the game). I have a problem with the English accents in AC3. The brutes amongst the british guards are Scots, and have butch but acceptable accents, but the English accent3d guards all sound like street thugs with sneery, evil accents. I say that is an unfair, unrealistic representation of the british army, whi are just doing a job (granted, some were d1cks, but not every single one of them to a man ffs).

VestigialLlama4
05-09-2016, 06:47 PM
I have a problem with the English accents in AC3. The brutes amongst the british guards are Scots, and have butch but acceptable accents, but the English accent3d guards all sound like street thugs with sneery, evil accents. I say that is an unfair, unrealistic representation of the british army, whi are just doing a job (granted, some were d1cks, but not every single one of them to a man ffs).

Bear in mind that in AC3 you are playing a Mohawk guy, it's unlikely for the British Army of that time to be very nice to him. I doubt the English Army would be very nice today to people of different skin and colour. In Black Flag you are a pirate (and you attack Spanish and English ships).

I don't know why some people are so sentimental about the British army, they were an Empire like the rest, not better or worse than others. They conquered and plundered a good part of the world and you can't do that and have that history and see them as nice or benign. After all every modern revolution and independence movement was fought against the English, from the American and French Revolutions to the Irish and Indian movements.



See, you are kind of using technical reasons to justify it in AC1.

I am using aesthetic reasons.


AC1 and Unity both are equally guilty of the same crime...

That presumes both are the same kind of games, made with the same expectations and conditions. Every situation is different and comparisons must be made carefully.

Markaccus
05-09-2016, 06:53 PM
I am not sentimental about our empiric past, i just object to the fact that A) the English (not the rest of the british) get most of the blame, and b) the english guards all sound like Skeletor off He-man.

And it really does not matter how different the games are, the accent debacle is no more justifiable in either game.

I really am starting to think you dislike the british, and particularly the english.

And the BRITISH army (not English) have people of different skin colours serving in it.

SixKeys
05-09-2016, 07:38 PM
I'm getting tired of this topic. We simply disagree on the use of fake accents making a game feel more "authentic". I just want to address this point:



2) If you want a game to be accessible in English, that's okay in theory. Why BBC English? Why not have them speak American? Today's international superpower is America, not England. It has a population 5 times greater than England and so a market 5 times greater. To me the fallacy of this special reverence for British accents as a source of refinement and legitimacy is pathetic and that's why I dock points for that, because after making such a bland compromised product like Unity the developers still want fancy and pretentious appeal.

That's exactly what I've been saying the whole time. Let actors use whatever accent comes most naturally to them. If the voice actor is from America, allow him to speak like an American. English is not my first language, so to me a fake BBC British accent is no more or less immersive than a fake Italian one. They're both foreign accents. They both make me feel like I'm in a different culture, listening to a language that is not my own.

Markaccus
05-09-2016, 08:00 PM
I'm getting tired of this topic. We simply disagree on the use of fake accents making a game feel more "authentic". I just want to address this point:



That's exactly what I've been saying the whole time. Let actors use whatever accent comes most naturally to them. If the voice actor is from America, allow him to speak like an American. English is not my first language, so to me a fake BBC British accent is no more or less immersive than a fake Italian one. They're both foreign accents. They both make me feel like I'm in a different culture, listening to a language that is not my own.

Probably a good idea. It is one of those circular discussions that never reach an end.

I think all accents should be Geordie from now on :p

VestigialLlama4
05-10-2016, 09:08 AM
And it really does not matter how different the games are, the accent debacle is no more justifiable in either game.

Well if you can't recognize fine distinctions then we can't have any debate at all.


I really am starting to think you dislike the british, and particularly the english.

British people, especially the English, always think other people dislike them when they bring up undeniably true facts of their history. But anyway, I don't want to make that an issue here. I should think that British people would have a little pride in their culture that their accents are used lazily as period stand-in by the folks of Unity, especially since so many English people travel to France each year and many of them know French either as a second language or a result of contact.


Let actors use whatever accent comes most naturally to them.[/b] If the voice actor is from America, allow him to speak like an American. English is not my first language, so to me a fake BBC British accent is no more or less immersive than a fake Italian one. They're both foreign accents. They both make me feel like I'm in a different culture, listening to a language that is not my own.

Well the audience is not one person. I am quite sure that in the Ezio games, if the characters didn't have accents it would stick out, especially to a non-gaming audience. I mean the jokes about Unity's BBC accents are not restricted to Unity-haters, it was made Conan O'Brien and in Honest Trailers video because it sticks out quite badly.

Hollywood movies have always used Spanish/Italian/French accents in various movies as signifiers and actors are game for it, because it's fun and cool.

To get back on topic, this digression on accents in various AC games goes to show why Assassin's Creed has very little to learn from Uncharted. They don't have the same problems to deal with.

Uncharted has a small recurring cast of Americans. AC has a new cast for each game virtually. The issues of accents, protagonists, culture and society has to be thought from the scratch with each new game, whereas Uncharted can pillage and binge-watch Indiana Jones movies and other old Hollywood adventure stories to their hearts content.

Assassin's Creed is unique for a gaming franchise without a single main character. It has multiple characters and figures whereas Super Mario is about Mario and Uncharted is about Drake.

Markaccus
05-10-2016, 10:14 AM
Dear oh dear. If you do not want to get into something, then maybe be careful with throw away lines like "British people, especially the English, always think other people dislike them when they bring up undeniably true facts of their history". Just because it happened, doesn't mean living brits now agree with it. Nor do I deny it happening. I just refuse to be eternally sorry for something I had nowt to do with.

As for the little distinctions, don't insult my intelligence by saying I can't spot them. I do see them, i just think they are irrelevant to the discussion. As for pride in my culture, well I clearly said that I think that the voices in Unity are stupid and out of place. There's only an issue because i feel the same about Altair in AC1. We can disagree, and agree to differ, both of which are civilised outcomes of a discussion i was willing to leave, but you seem intent on telling me I am out-right wrong. Neither of us are going to accept that.

On topic, and no matter what else is said on the other I am officially leaving it, due to the fact it is annoying at least one other community member...

I have never played Uncharted. Linear games don't really have an appeal to me. Having played linear games in the past, however, I cant really see any comparable features that could improve open world games. COD games are mission after mission of fast paced death and destruction. I know there are similar games that have mission after mission of sneaking around not being seen otherwise 4000000000 enemies come to get you. Non of this seems pertinent to open world, or AC games in particular.

Locopells
05-10-2016, 11:20 AM
Not sure how we got here from AC vs UC, but yeah - topic guys...

LoyalACFan
05-12-2016, 05:14 AM
Not sure how we got here from AC vs UC, but yeah - topic guys...

Resurrecting this thread to note that Uncharted actually appears to have learned a thing or two from AC :p Most noticeably, the "tall grass" stealth mechanics and enemy detection meter (which is basically taken directly from AC).

But yeah, to get back to OP's original point; after marathoning UC4 today after finishing my finals, I can honestly say I wasn't that impressed with the storytelling TBH. No spoilers, or at least very very minor ones, but I thought it was actually far too long for the story it told. It was a pretty straightforward action tale, which is fine because the previous ones were too, but it was almost twice the length of its predecessors. It kind of follows the same structure as UC2 and UC3 (Act 1: opening in medias res, flashback to the setup, exposition for MacGuffin; Act 2: skip around a few exotic locales chasing clues; Act 3: reach the actual location of the MacGuffin and pursue for the last 1/3 of the story) but each act drags on for too long and there are often multiple hours of parkouring and fighting in between each major advancement of the plot, and the story feels a bit thin and stretched-out as a result.

Basically, the story has about the same scope as the previous games, but with twice as much filler. It would have helped tremendously to bring in some of the series' supporting cast (e.g. Chloe and Cutter, who are both mentioned in passing but feel almost conspicuously absent here) to add some secondary storylines into the mix so it doesn't feel like we're just slogging through enemy encounters to get to the next cutscene in the main "Ye Olde Pyrate Treasure" plot. Don't get me wrong, I really liked the game, and I thought the story was pretty good; it just wasn't told particularly well in my opinion.