PDA

View Full Version : What is Jesus' origins?



SIS-Agent
04-26-2016, 08:59 PM
Was he the son of god? Or no? Keep in mind that I'm still new to the Assassin's Creed series, but after doing some researching on different sites, the answer seems to ranges from no he isn't, he could be, god doesn't exists in the Assassin's Creed universe, ect. Even the wiki just says: "believing him to be the son of God who was raised from the dead and ascended into Heaven", instead of confirming or not.


I've also come across this: "During the game it's mentioned that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God and that it's a fabrication. The final email also mentions that artefacts related to Christ are probably fictional. And yet we have a couple of Christian symbols and a massively powerful New Testament verse that suggests maybe the opposite is true. Maybe the Piece of Eden has been used not to support a lie about Christ, but to cover up the very truth of the matter."

SixKeys
04-27-2016, 01:33 AM
In the AC lore, Jesus was a charlatan who used the Apple's powers to make people believe he could perform miracles. I don't know which New Testament verse that quote is referring to, but I recall nothing in the games that would suggest there is any truth to the Christ myth.

ERICATHERINE
04-27-2016, 02:18 AM
And let's not forget he was revived because of a shroud of eden, but that could be false from Shaun Hastings point of view, since it would be the only case of a shroud of eden reviving someone. So, Shaun said that unless he see a shroud revive someone, may it be with his own eyes or with an animus, he won't think a shroud can revive someone. ^-^

Sigma 1313
04-27-2016, 06:11 AM
And let's not forget he was revived because of a shroud of eden, but that could be false from Shaun Hastings point of view, since it would be the only case of a shroud of eden reviving someone. So, Shaun said that unless he see a shroud revive someone, may it be with his own eyes or with an animus, he won't think a shroud can revive someone. ^-^

That's right, however the ankh was said to be used by Isis to revive Osiris. It's not unreasonable that they used the ankh to revive Jesus rather than the shroud. Or perhaps the shroud was always on Jesus and it took a while to repair him due to how terrible Crucifixion was (and the Romans just thought he was dead).

Assassin_M
04-27-2016, 04:26 PM
The AC Universe is a pseudo-atheist's view of the world and its religious evolution. The Monotheistic God does not exist, all things related to Him are fictional and "irrational". It's simply thrown away with no complex explanation of its origin or anything else. Everything that has to do with polytheism, though, is given deep thought, analysis and origins.

Not a single protagonist or "good guy" in the AC games believes in a monotheistic God or invokes the name of a monotheistic God. Even the ones who do are a fringe, such as Teodora who exhibits a secular world view (It's funny that these games speak about different outlooks but project a strictly secular world view on everything and anything) Only the evil bad guys and some Templars (Who are, as a group, demonstrably atheist) can be monotheistic believers or invoke the name of a monotheistic God. It's perfectly rational for Altair to ponder about weird creation myths or human origin stories such as humanity being formed by separate body parts that became one. It's perfectly fine for Connor to invoke the name of a religious deity because it's polytheism and it's interesting.

Don't be offended by it, OP. Jesus is nobody in the AC lore. I don't know where you found that post you ran into, but judging by how you take it as anything to go by, I'm gonna say that you're a catholic or christian who wants to confirm if AC is blasphemous. It is. It's easy to stay a believer and play blasphemous games. They're just stories. They're stories about humans.

ze_topazio
04-27-2016, 05:17 PM
Ain't that obvious why M? the old polytheist religions mentioned in AC are dead religions with no believers in this day and age, the three main monotheist religions have billions of followers all over the world, billions of people who could potentially be outraged if their God, prophets, messiahs, etc... were portrayed as some ancient aliens plotting world domination.

ERICATHERINE
04-27-2016, 06:01 PM
Don't be offended by it, OP. Jesus is nobody in the AC lore. I don't know where you found that post you ran into, but judging by how you take it as anything to go by, I'm gonna say that you're a catholic or christian who wants to confirm if AC is blasphemous. It is. It's easy to stay a believer and play blasphemous games. They're just stories. They're stories about humans.

While I readed this, I remembered this mission of assassination. XD


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikV_cQUzgcY

Assassin_M
04-27-2016, 07:18 PM
While I readed this, I remembered this mission of assassination. XD


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikV_cQUzgcY
When AC actually discussed religion in depth.


the old polytheist religions mentioned in AC are dead religions with no believers in this day and age, the three main monotheist religions have billions of followers all over the world, billions of people who could potentially be outraged if their God, prophets, messiahs, etc... were portrayed as some ancient aliens plotting world domination.
This is an explanation to this question: "Why offend?" (As silly as that question is), but AC doesn't just 'offend' for the ****z and gigglies. AC is very very strictly a secularist's or atheist's entire world view. It ticks all the criteria, especially the infatuation with polytheism and the simplistic explanation of monotheistic religions. It has nothing to do with being offensive.

Also, you got it mixed up. It's the polytheist religions that are revealed to be a plot by ancient aliens to take over the world :p Monotheistic religions are not given that much depth :rolleyes:

ERICATHERINE
04-27-2016, 08:25 PM
When AC actually discussed religion in depth.

XD

Sorrosyss
04-27-2016, 08:43 PM
*knocks on door*

Do you have a few moments to talk about our true and righteous saviour, Juno? Here's a pamphlet. You can find our website on all good Helix systems.

You have a Grey day now.

ze_topazio
04-27-2016, 11:41 PM
When AC actually discussed religion in depth.


This is an explanation to this question: "Why offend?" (As silly as that question is), but AC doesn't just 'offend' for the ****z and gigglies. AC is very very strictly a secularist's or atheist's entire world view. It ticks all the criteria, especially the infatuation with polytheism and the simplistic explanation of monotheistic religions. It has nothing to do with being offensive.

Also, you got it mixed up. It's the polytheist religions that are revealed to be a plot by ancient aliens to take over the world :p Monotheistic religions are not given that much depth :rolleyes:

What I said is that they can play with extinct religions because nobody cares, but alive religions, especially the three main Abrahamic religions, could attract unnecessary controversy, which could give the series a bad reputation, which in turn could harm the sales, briefly mentioning that Jesus and Moses were normal dudes with pieces of eden is probably as far as they are willing to go.

They have no problem saying the Catholic Church (the organization) was corrupt and did a lot of poop over the centuries, there's no controversy there, everybody thinks that already, but attacking the religion itself is a risk they are probably not willing to take.

ERICATHERINE
04-27-2016, 11:54 PM
*knocks on door*

Do you have a few moments to talk about our true and righteous saviour, Juno? Here's a pamphlet. You can find our website on all good Helix systems.

You have a Grey day now.

The instrument of the first will are up to no good, it seems. :rolleyes:

Long live the initiates. Long live us. :p

SixKeys
04-28-2016, 12:12 AM
Not a single protagonist or "good guy" in the AC games believes in a monotheistic God or invokes the name of a monotheistic God. Even the ones who do are a fringe, such as Teodora who exhibits a secular world view (It's funny that these games speak about different outlooks but project a strictly secular world view on everything and anything)

Is Teodora really so secular, though? All she says is that she worships God in her own way which is different from the Catholic doctrine. The same could be said about the majority of Christians around the world today.

I don't think the overall secularism is so strange in-universe, considering that both assassins and Templars have seen things that pretty much conclusively disprove existing religions. How could an assassin go on believing in God/s when they have firsthand accounts of Minerva recounting the entire history of how humans were manufactured by the First Civ?


What I said is that they can play with extinct religions because nobody cares, but alive religions, especially the three main Abrahamic religions, could attract unnecessary controversy, which could give the series a bad reputation, which in turn could harm the sales, briefly mentioning that Jesus and Moses were normal dudes with pieces of eden is probably as far as they are willing to go.

They have no problem saying the Catholic Church (the organization) was corrupt and did a lot of poop over the centuries, there's no controversy there, everybody thinks that already, but attacking the religion itself is a risk they are probably not willing to take.

The plain-as-day statements about Jesus and Moses are already pretty bold, and on top of that Vidic claims the Bible is nonsense. I don't think AC has been any less harsh on monotheistic religions than on polytheistic religions. It has definitely moved away from openly criticizing either at this point, though.

Locopells
04-28-2016, 12:20 AM
No religious figure what they appear, in AC lore, they're either from the First Civ or POE users.

Assassin_M
04-28-2016, 03:05 AM
Is Teodora really so secular, though? All she says is that she worships God in her own way which is different from the Catholic doctrine. The same could be said about the majority of Christians around the world today.
Oh Teodora is VERY secular. Teodora is as much a believer as say a Muslim who says the exact same thing as her. "Why would God care if I have sex? or masturbate?" Basically they pick and choose what bits of the religion they like and what bits they don't like and live from there. That's the ideal view an atheist would have of a "religious" person. To an atheist or secularist, that's the "good" religious believer. Anything more than that is hurr durr hardcore religious or "extremist".


I don't think the overall secularism is so strange in-universe, considering that both assassins and Templars have seen things that pretty much conclusively disprove existing religions. How could an assassin go on believing in God/s when they have firsthand accounts of Minerva recounting the entire history of how humans were manufactured by the First Civ?
Oh me neither, it's perfectly consistent. I was just demonstrating the world view of the writers and how they project that into the series' lore and narratives. Look at some characters, take Dr Brewster, for example. He's a Templar and yet he believes in God. He invokes his name as he dies. Why? How can he still believe in God after everything he's seen? Especially since he's an expert on PoEs. I liked that in AC I that the antagonists were consistent with the in-universe lore of humanity. The cover of religiosity was explained as them using the church to further their gains. Same with Rodrigo in AC II. Somewhere along, it became like good ol' Hollywood. Only bad people invoke the name of God, believe in destiny..etc.

I'm not really complaining, just observing.



What I said is that they can play with extinct religions because nobody cares, but alive religions, especially the three main Abrahamic religions, could attract unnecessary controversy, which could give the series a bad reputation, which in turn could harm the sales, briefly mentioning that Jesus and Moses were normal dudes with pieces of eden is probably as far as they are willing to go.

They have no problem saying the Catholic Church (the organization) was corrupt and did a lot of poop over the centuries, there's no controversy there, everybody thinks that already, but attacking the religion itself is a risk they are probably not willing to take.
Ooooohhh, I get you now. Sorry for misunderstanding. Mind you, though, AC is still viewed as pretty blasphemous by a lot of Christians and Catholics, so I would wager to say that even though criticism of prevalent world religions gets brief, passing mentions, people still find these bits. In dialogue, in glyphs, there's a lot of it, like Sixkeys said.

P.S. Love the sig. Brilliant.

Senningiri_GR
04-28-2016, 07:20 AM
Well actually one could say that what is said in the Glyphs of Subject 16 were written by a person who was insane and with proof (for example writing and drawing on floor and walls with blood, especially your own, is a sign of madness) So we are not sure about what is in them and before Assassin's Creed Unity we had no idea what the Sword of Eden and the Shroud were for.



Long live the initiates. Long live us. :p

The Initiates are DEAD

SixKeys
04-28-2016, 03:40 PM
Oh Teodora is VERY secular. Teodora is as much a believer as say a Muslim who says the exact same thing as her. "Why would God care if I have sex? or masturbate?" Basically they pick and choose what bits of the religion they like and what bits they don't like and live from there. That's the ideal view an atheist would have of a "religious" person. To an atheist or secularist, that's the "good" religious believer. Anything more than that is hurr durr hardcore religious or "extremist".

That's a No True Scotsman fallacy. Just because someone doesn't follow their religion to the letter doesn't make them a non-believer. If Teodora believes in God, she belives in God, period. EVERYONE picks and chooses the bits of their religion that they like. Some more than others.

Assassin_M
04-28-2016, 04:15 PM
That's a No True Scotsman fallacy. Just because someone doesn't follow their religion to the letter doesn't make them a non-believer. If Teodora believes in God, she belives in God, period. EVERYONE picks and chooses the bits of their religion that they like. Some more than others.
The no true Scotsman fallacy doesn't exist when rules are there that say that what someone is doing is contradictory to their claim of ideals and/or principles. Besides, I brought up nothing about who is a believer and who isn't. The fact is, Teodora speaks like most Christians, Catholics and westernized Muslims living in the 21st century. All these three religions say that premarital sex is not permitted and yet people indulge in it anyways. You might be speaking from your own experience, but I'll be speaking strictly from a Muslim stand point. Teodora is the model believer from an atheist or secular point of view. Ask Sam Harris, Dawkins or Ayan Ali or any of the other anti-theists, they'll tell you that anyone who reads the Quran or prays 5 times a day is an extremist.

It's not about JUST belief in God, it's about the rules of the religion. People choose to believe in God and not follow the rules proposed by their beliefs. They don't want that discipline and that's okay. So much for opium of the masses. They can say whatever they want but in practice? They're the model believer from a secular point of view. Rules and limits are not defined by individuals. If you say 2+2 = 5, you're wrong because 2+2 = 4. That's not a fallacy.

ERICATHERINE
04-28-2016, 05:25 PM
The Initiates are DEAD

Actually, every person who registered in the acinitiates.com website, like me for a quick exemple, registered to be an initiate. That means the initiates are the only existing ac "brotherhood" in real life which we are sure exist. I think, if you registered, that you need to read the contract you sign, more carefuly. :p

Also, in the game, from what I understood by reading the last Assassin intel of the Jack the ripper dlc, we aren't dead. We're just in stand by. ^-^

ze_topazio
04-28-2016, 05:34 PM
P.S. Love the sig. Brilliant.

Why thank you kind sir.


Actually Teodora and the secular Christians are perhaps closer to real Christianity than the hardcore Catholics, Jesus message was all about forgetting the rules of the old scriptures and loving God freely while being an overall nice person in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, his teachings were more like moral advices than actual rules, it was the many organized versions of Christianity that introduced a bazillion rules based on interpretations of Jesus words and inspired by the old testament.

SixKeys
04-28-2016, 05:38 PM
The no true Scotsman fallacy doesn't exist when rules are there that say that what someone is doing is contradictory to their claim of ideals and/or principles. Besides, I brought up nothing about who is a believer and who isn't. The fact is, Teodora speaks like most Christians, Catholics and westernized Muslims living in the 21st century. All these three religions say that premarital sex is not permitted and yet people indulge in it anyways. You might be speaking from your own experience, but I'll be speaking strictly from a Muslim stand point. Teodora is the model believer from an atheist or secular point of view. Ask Sam Harris, Dawkins or Ayan Ali or any of the other anti-theists, they'll tell you that anyone who reads the Quran or prays 5 times a day is an extremist.

It's not about JUST belief in God, it's about the rules of the religion. People choose to believe in God and not follow the rules proposed by their beliefs. They don't want that discipline and that's okay. So much for opium of the masses. They can say whatever they want but in practice? They're the model believer from a secular point of view. Rules and limits are not defined by individuals. If you say 2+2 = 5, you're wrong because 2+2 = 4. That's not a fallacy.

Are you saying premarital sex is a modern invention? I assure you there were people back then who believed in God but bent the rules as they saw fit, just like everyone else. It's literally impossible to follow the Bible to the letter due to the many contradictions, so people pick and choose.

Don't get me wrong, the overall tone of the games is definitely secular and written from a secularist's point of view. If that's your point then we agree. But it doesn't invalidate the fact that Teodora is an assassin who believes in God and one of the "good guys".

ERICATHERINE
04-28-2016, 05:39 PM
That's a No True Scotsman fallacy. Just because someone doesn't follow their religion to the letter doesn't make them a non-believer. If Teodora believes in God, she belives in God, period. EVERYONE picks and chooses the bits of their religion that they like. Some more than others.

Here is Ned Flanders reaction about this in two part. XD

Part 1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnewjEEUs1c

Part 2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gtFF9fpnvk

Assassin_M
04-28-2016, 05:55 PM
Are you saying premarital sex is a modern invention?

Nope. In the past, the person doing it either did it in secret or just kept up a religious appearance because it benefitted them. Of course people bended the rules back then too but you wouldn't see someone sleeping around openly and going to church on Sundays.


It's literally impossible to follow the Bible to the letter due to the many contradictions, so people pick and choose.
I'm not an expert on the bible but the rules are pretty clear. From my understanding, the contradictions come from the theology, not the rules.


Don't get me wrong, the overall tone of the games is definitely secular and written from a secularist's point of view. If that's your point then we agree.
It is my point.


But it doesn't invalidate the fact that Teodora is an assassin who believes in God and one of the "good guys".

I never said she isn't :P As a matter of fact, I used her being religious as a prime example of what a "good" religious person is from a secular view point. I did say that in my original post.

SixKeys
04-28-2016, 06:25 PM
Nope. In the past, the person doing it either did it in secret or just kept up a religious appearance because it benefitted them. Of course people bended the rules back then too but you wouldn't see someone sleeping around openly and going to church on Sundays.

Unless they were rich and/or powerful enough to get away with it, you mean. Catholic doctrine even provided them an easy way out; after you've sinned, just go to a priest, ask for forgiveness, say a bunch of "Hail Marys" and you're clear.


I'm not an expert on the bible but the rules are pretty clear. From my understanding, the contradictions come from the theology, not the rules.

Just one example, but on whether humans are allowed to make graven images:

Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."

Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."

vs.

Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."

I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"


I have a feeling the thread will get closed if we get further into theology though, so I'll bow out of elaborating further. ;) My point is that nobody can really tell who qualifies as a true believer or not because everyone follows their own morality in the end.

ERICATHERINE
04-29-2016, 03:57 AM
I have a feeling the thread will get closed if we get further into theology though, so I'll bow out of elaborating further. ;) My point is that nobody can really tell who qualifies as a true believer or not because everyone follows their own morality in the end.

Actually, there is nothing to believe in. Homer Simpson proved that god can't exist. :p


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTL0-RH2LfU

VestigialLlama4
04-29-2016, 04:47 AM
Sorry for being late to this party.

Let me say that I don't think Assassin's Creed is anti-Christian nor is it some Secular Humanist Wet Dream. The games are timid and their dialing down of religion is solely because they didn't expect western audiences to root for true Muslim Asasiyun. It's secular commercially speaking.

I am pretty sure if these games were centered around the Templars you will see a lot more Christian theology and concepts. But since they chose Asasiyun as Heroes, they had to make Templars non-Christian to match them and dial down all religious dimensions to the conflict.

As for Jesus, he isn't a charlatan.

As Altair says in the Codex (PAGE 11):

''Attis. Dionysus. Horus. Krishna. Mithra. Jesus. Similar stories color their lives. Too similar, I think. Divine birthright. Persecution. Disciples. Miraculous acts. Resurrection...
How is it possible?
Perhaps it isn't... Merely a single story told over the ages? Borrowed then changed to fit the times? Evolving as our tools and language do? Is this tale born of fact or fiction? A bit of both? Could these figures be the same person – their life extended and transformed by a Piece of Eden?
Al Mualim spoke of Jesus as a real person – a mortal who had mastered the arts of manipulation. But what if he was wrong? If these men are real – and if they have walked amongst us many times before – does it mean they'll come again? Perhaps they are here now? So many questions, and every day, even more... ''

What Altair suggests is that Jesus was maybe a demigod of some sorts. Part First-Civilization. So he is not some fake.

Also remember that it is only the Templars (Rotten Bad Guys all of them) who spout explicit anti-religious statements on screen. Like Al Mualim bad mouths the belief systems of all the Crusaders but Altair says "At least they chose what they believe in". Rodrigo Borgia badmouths the Bible explicilty and Ezio calls him a giant hypocrite. All these are kid glove soft-pedals.

In UNITY, the evil Templar gloats about how the Revolution will end the Church and so on, and the only evil Priest is Jacques Roux, a radical street-reformer type. Aka liberal priests.

So basically, it's not worth discussing.

SixKeys
04-29-2016, 01:21 PM
S
As for Jesus, he isn't a charlatan.

As Altair says in the Codex (PAGE 11):

''Attis. Dionysus. Horus. Krishna. Mithra. Jesus. Similar stories color their lives. Too similar, I think. Divine birthright. Persecution. Disciples. Miraculous acts. Resurrection...
How is it possible?
Perhaps it isn't... Merely a single story told over the ages? Borrowed then changed to fit the times? Evolving as our tools and language do? Is this tale born of fact or fiction? A bit of both? Could these figures be the same person – their life extended and transformed by a Piece of Eden?
Al Mualim spoke of Jesus as a real person – a mortal who had mastered the arts of manipulation. But what if he was wrong? If these men are real – and if they have walked amongst us many times before – does it mean they'll come again? Perhaps they are here now? So many questions, and every day, even more... ''

What Altair suggests is that Jesus was maybe a demigod of some sorts. Part First-Civilization. So he is not some fake.

Then the best that can be said that it's unclear, since Altaïr is only offering an alternative suggestion to Al Mualim's view. Neither of them is necessarily right.

ze_topazio
04-29-2016, 01:37 PM
Jesus doesn't need to be a charlatan or a bad guy, just a normal guy ahead of his time trying to do good and change the world for the better with a message of peace, willing to trick the people with illusions if necessary for the greater good.

Or maybe after finding the "magical" piece of eden he genuinely came to believe he was the Messiah.

etc...

There are many ways they could come up to in order to portray Jesus as a normal guy without demonizing him, same for other religious figures.

SixKeys
04-29-2016, 01:51 PM
Jesus doesn't need to be a charlatan or a bad guy, just a normal guy ahead of his time trying to do good and change the world for the better with a message of peace, willing to trick the people with illusions if necessary for the greater good.

That still qualifies as charlatan. :p The word may have negative connotations seeing as it's used to call out people who deceive others, but the dictionary definition says nothing about intent. You can be a "good guy" and be a charlatan.

ze_topazio
04-29-2016, 02:00 PM
True, but usually charlatan is associated with people tricking or charming others for personal profit.

VestigialLlama4
04-29-2016, 02:31 PM
That still qualifies as charlatan. :p The word may have negative connotations seeing as it's used to call out people who deceive others, but the dictionary definition says nothing about intent. You can be a "good guy" and be a charlatan.

You know in the game ''Rise of the Tomb Raider'' there is a similar exploration of whether the Prophet's message counts or the way he presents himself. I don't know if you have played the game (which I gather did not gain a lot of attention but I rather liked a great deal) but it deals with very similar themes. And the message is that you can be both a charlatan and a holy man. It's like Assassin's Creed, exploring religious themes and ideas in a secular alternate science-fiction way.

Anyway, let's all be real, ubisoft is never going to actually deal with religion directly. Not actually existing religion (though they might try Buddhism). They barely struggle with politics as it is, they tip-toed around the American Revolution in AC3, absolutely lost their marbles with ACU where without thinking they made a fascist game, and in Syndicate they had heroes who were on first name basis with both Karl Marx and Queen Victoria and somehow pretended that this wasn't a problem. What they are interested in is covering their bases and don't become too controversial. They don't actually mount actual criticisms of the Catholic Church, since neither AC1 or AC2 features Jewish characters or Jewish NPCs at a time of great anti-semitism, while ACU made many references to how Churches were vandalized and priests were killed but made zero mention of the fact that this was the moment where Jews were deghettoized officially.

They don't say this because then people will accuse it of being anti-Christian. Making Pope Alexander VI a corrupt pope and boss fight is not controversial to Catholics because he has historically been demonized by the Church as a bad pope. Saying that this bad pope was also a man of exceptional religious tolerance and that tolerance was actually more decisive for why he was hated, is more controversial.


Then the best that can be said that it's unclear, since Altaïr is only offering an alternative suggestion to Al Mualim's view. Neither of them is necessarily right.

Well that's exactly the intent of Ubisoft. They want to make sure that none of their potentially controversial statements are something they can't take back later. Like Subject 16's Statements in AC2 implied that World War 2 heroes like Churchill and Roosevelt were collaborators of Nazis and Templars. Put that in an actual game and Ubisoft will be tarred on Fox News as evil Canadian French trash who insult their great leaders. So later games say S16 was crazy, he saw alternate futures and in AC1, Templars say that they sometimes put crackpot misinformation out in their files to throw conspiracy buffs off their heads. And come Syndicate, Winston Fatboy Churchill is a hero and Assassin ally in the Lydia Frye sequences.

Remember that the most anti-religious statements are always made by Templars and Templars are nothing but bad guys in the game, all pretenses of grayness notwithstanding. These are little tricks Ubisoft puts in the game to have their cake and eat it too.

SixKeys
04-29-2016, 07:47 PM
I make a clear distinction between Old AC and New AC. AC1-ACB were a little more direct with their criticisms about controversial subjects. I think Patrice probably had a lot of influence over the tone, as the games started getting more careful as soon as he departed. So yes, Ubi is definitely playing it safe now, but I disagree that that has always been the case.

VestigialLlama4
04-29-2016, 09:56 PM
I make a clear distinction between Old AC and New AC. AC1-ACB were a little more direct with their criticisms about controversial subjects. I think Patrice probably had a lot of influence over the tone, as the games started getting more careful as soon as he departed. So yes, Ubi is definitely playing it safe now, but I disagree that that has always been the case.

Well the thing is I feel that PD was less interested in religious criticism than using it as tools for adventure stories. Like the Assassins in AC1 are adventure heroes stripped of the campier elements from Prince of Persia, making them a little more sober and grounded. Even the historical accuracy and fiction is part of that. So the religious critiques is certainly there. It's strongest in AC1 where Altair insiists "Not god, it was skill" to the very Christian Richard I but it's done in a way that is tasteful and distanced. AC2 was a big Renaissance fantasy, and the whole First Civ weirdness kind of dials down the craziness of you assassinating a Pope in the Middle of High Mass.

But this is also a case of writing, and Corey May probably had his own views about this and maybe he decided to balance it out. Darby McDevitt is a lot more political than the other AC writers. You see this in Revelations and Black Flag where character and social relationships have a class, occupational and society difference.

In AC2, Girolamo Savonarola and his religious fanaticism and appeals gets reduced to him using an Apple to influence people. Savonarola established a theocratic state in Florence that was also proto-Republican and yet in the game it is a brief DLC and it's mostly you going around and attacking Savonarola lieutenants. You don't have them discussing Savonarola's beliefs, and Savonarola doesn't explain how his belief in God is one with his use of a magical object to impose his will on people. Savonarola is the only major bad guy who is truly 100% religious, not a hypocrite and so on.

SIS-Agent
05-02-2016, 05:48 AM
Sorry for being late to this party.

Let me say that I don't think Assassin's Creed is anti-Christian nor is it some Secular Humanist Wet Dream. The games are timid and their dialing down of religion is solely because they didn't expect western audiences to root for true Muslim Asasiyun. It's secular commercially speaking.

I am pretty sure if these games were centered around the Templars you will see a lot more Christian theology and concepts. But since they chose Asasiyun as Heroes, they had to make Templars non-Christian to match them and dial down all religious dimensions to the conflict.

As for Jesus, he isn't a charlatan.

As Altair says in the Codex (PAGE 11):

''Attis. Dionysus. Horus. Krishna. Mithra. Jesus. Similar stories color their lives. Too similar, I think. Divine birthright. Persecution. Disciples. Miraculous acts. Resurrection...
How is it possible?
Perhaps it isn't... Merely a single story told over the ages? Borrowed then changed to fit the times? Evolving as our tools and language do? Is this tale born of fact or fiction? A bit of both? Could these figures be the same person – their life extended and transformed by a Piece of Eden?
Al Mualim spoke of Jesus as a real person – a mortal who had mastered the arts of manipulation. But what if he was wrong? If these men are real – and if they have walked amongst us many times before – does it mean they'll come again? Perhaps they are here now? So many questions, and every day, even more... ''

What Altair suggests is that Jesus was maybe a demigod of some sorts. Part First-Civilization. So he is not some fake.

Also remember that it is only the Templars (Rotten Bad Guys all of them) who spout explicit anti-religious statements on screen. Like Al Mualim bad mouths the belief systems of all the Crusaders but Altair says "At least they chose what they believe in". Rodrigo Borgia badmouths the Bible explicilty and Ezio calls him a giant hypocrite. All these are kid glove soft-pedals.

In UNITY, the evil Templar gloats about how the Revolution will end the Church and so on, and the only evil Priest is Jacques Roux, a radical street-reformer type. Aka liberal priests.

So basically, it's not worth discussing.

What would a demigod basically be in the Assassin Creed universe? Is it basically up to fan interpretation at the moment?

VestigialLlama4
05-02-2016, 09:04 AM
What would a demigod basically be in the Assassin Creed universe? Is it basically up to fan interpretation at the moment?

Demigods in Greek mythology were those who had mortal and divine blood. So they were a mix of man and God, in that they could die, get hurt and suffer but still possessed extraordinary abilities. This covers your Heracles, Perseus, Theseus and Achilles. Now this is a trope of Greek and Roman myth. In Judaism this didn't exist but since Christianity borrowed not only from Judaism but aspects of different Middle Eastern and later Greek religions, Jesus in the Bible has great resemblances to the Greek demigods, in that he was divine and human at the same time.

In the AC-verse, hybrids that is humans with First-Civ blood exist. The OG Adam and Eve are identified as such. The Assassins we play (Altair, Ezio, Connor, Edward etcetera) technically qualify as demigods since they have First Civ blood that gives them some immunity from Apple Possession, ability to wield First Civ artifacts, the Eagle Vision and it's also implied to be the source of their superhuman stamina and fitness.

In addition there are the Sages who can reincarnate periodically, have multiple copies with the same memories and a consistent recurring genetic imprint. That is godlike but not entirely so since Sages are mortal.

The word "Demigod" is my phrase...the in-universe phrase is hybrids. But basically Jesus could have been the same only having more abilities as a result to greater First Civ DNA and abilities. Maybe he used the quantum field to convert fishes into loaves of bread, water into wine and awakened the Eagle Sense instead of curing a man's blindness.

ERICATHERINE
05-02-2016, 04:26 PM
Maybe he used the quantum field to convert fishes into loaves of bread, water into wine and awakened the Eagle Sense instead of curing a man's blindness.

Just to be sure I totaly understand, by "quantum field", you're talking about the "nexus" right? ^-^

VestigialLlama4
05-02-2016, 05:32 PM
Just to be sure I totaly understand, by "quantum field", you're talking about the "nexus" right? ^-^

Yes. Basically the First Civilization operates on advanced Quantum Magic, similar to Dr. Manhattan from the Watchmen comic or the movie. What they call the Nexus is part of that.

Quantum physics is about the elementary particles which do not operate on fixed principles of space and time and physicians argue that their dual light and wave characteristics allows considerably fluidity and variation. So the First Civ control these elementary particles and can manipulate it.

In a general sense, this is just a pseudo-scientific way to approach magic, miracles, God and so on.

ERICATHERINE
05-02-2016, 11:23 PM
Yes. Basically the First Civilization operates on advanced Quantum Magic, similar to Dr. Manhattan from the Watchmen comic or the movie. What they call the Nexus is part of that.

Quantum physics is about the elementary particles which do not operate on fixed principles of space and time and physicians argue that their dual light and wave characteristics allows considerably fluidity and variation. So the First Civ control these elementary particles and can manipulate it.

In a general sense, this is just a pseudo-scientific way to approach magic, miracles, God and so on.

I wonder how the ac movie could show the nexus. I'm sure many of us saw it looked the same in every ac game, but it will surely look at least a bit different in a real life style than a video game style. Of course, by "real life style" I don't mean "in our world". I mean in a style of video like the one of ac lineage. I know it would probably be made with a pc or something like that, but I'm sure it would still look different. ^-^