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View Full Version : Cockpits in BoB... and a little more.



XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 08:20 AM
Hi Oleg, Team, and All,

I remember now of a problem that was arisen by many and could never be fixed because of il2/FB technology choices. That was about the gauges/clocks and other instruments that you cannot see because they are obstructed by some cockpit feature (gunsight, yoke...)
One of the very best suggestion was a 'semitransparent' button that would let you see trough those obstructing objects. Some wanted this button also 'dim' part or all of the cockpit bars to see outside simulating both stereoscopic vision and possible slight head movement to follow a target.
I'm now wondering if the dev team has this in mind for the new sim because it would be much of an improvement for those of us who want to fly 'full real' (with no speed bar) and still want to know our heading, the time running, and so on.
Also much needed for the new sim would be a clear documentation of engine overrev speed and overheat temp. This would prevent us to have to use the 'hudlike' display to 'learn' the overheat temps... Should be much more fun this way... IMHO.
Salute,

DaCool (Himself)

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 08:20 AM
Hi Oleg, Team, and All,

I remember now of a problem that was arisen by many and could never be fixed because of il2/FB technology choices. That was about the gauges/clocks and other instruments that you cannot see because they are obstructed by some cockpit feature (gunsight, yoke...)
One of the very best suggestion was a 'semitransparent' button that would let you see trough those obstructing objects. Some wanted this button also 'dim' part or all of the cockpit bars to see outside simulating both stereoscopic vision and possible slight head movement to follow a target.
I'm now wondering if the dev team has this in mind for the new sim because it would be much of an improvement for those of us who want to fly 'full real' (with no speed bar) and still want to know our heading, the time running, and so on.
Also much needed for the new sim would be a clear documentation of engine overrev speed and overheat temp. This would prevent us to have to use the 'hudlike' display to 'learn' the overheat temps... Should be much more fun this way... IMHO.
Salute,

DaCool (Himself)

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 09:15 AM
hi,

..agree..and some more points as a feature in modern
PC-combatsims:

1) increase of cockpit angel view (like LockOn)

2) interactive 3D cockpits

3) better flexible dynamic gamecamera view at pilots view

4) gunsight view more closed to real things

5) better 3D design..by considering refraction problems of
windscreens

6) multimonitor/beamer and 3D sterovision support

..the first six points..more soon...






http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy/data/bf109f-7-headon.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 09:46 AM
re,..

and that's the future..some links:

http://www.dti3d.com/


http://www.hhi.fraunhofer.de/english/im/projects/old_projects/multimo3D/


http://www.hhi.fraunhofer.de/english/im/projects/mixed3d/

http://www.hhi.fraunhofer.de/english/gf/events/index.html





http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy/data/bf109f-7-headon.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 09:55 AM
re..

http://www.actkern.info/eHome/eProdukte/e3DDisplay/e3D_01/e3d_01.html

http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy/data/bf109f-7-headon.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 06:00 PM
You can't expect to fly full real and get a HUD or something. The problem is if you want a real panel you'd hardly see anything because you can't move your head away from the viewing point - all you can do is twist the neck and look up and down etc. I'd favour a compromised view that is not entirely realistic.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 09:08 PM
KG26_Thief wrote:
- You can't expect to fly full real and get a HUD or
- something.

That's waht I said: I DONT want to have a HUD. And the the moment, you have to use those 'text-based-helpers' because you cannot have full view of instruments.

- The problem is if you want a real panel
- you'd hardly see anything because you can't move
- your head away from the viewing point - all you can
- do is twist the neck and look up and down etc. I'd
- favour a compromised view that is not entirely
- realistic.

I cannot believe real pilots were unable to read their own instruments... come on !
;-)

-
-

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 09:13 PM
starfighter1 wrote:
- hi,
-
- ..agree..and some more points as a feature in modern
- PC-combatsims:
-
- 1) increase of cockpit angel view (like LockOn)

would be nice.

-
- 2) interactive 3D cockpits

cannot imagine exactly what it would be like...

-
- 3) better flexible dynamic gamecamera view at pilots
- view

herrrr, yes... ;-)

-
- 4) gunsight view more closed to real things

well, i guess so, but it's still not very precise... what exactly do you mean ?

-
- 5) better 3D design..by considering refraction
- problems of
- windscreens

done yet. But should be improved, you're right.

-
-
- 6) multimonitor/beamer and 3D sterovision support

Ho yes... Multimonitor is a must in future sims. As well as custom resolutions (for custom high end screens) you should then adjust the exact dimensions pix per pix, plus the refresh rate...

-
- ..the first six points..more soon...
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
<img
- src="http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy/data/bf109f
- -7-headon.gif">
-

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 10:24 PM
Maybe, for example, let's say that the button "A" makes the look goes upwards. Now, if you hold "Shift+A" you make your pilot stretch his neck, and so on with the other views. Whaddya think? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/reincarnation.jpg (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
Are you damned? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
<

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 12:01 PM
Why not...
seems a little complicated.
Besides, how can i lean on one side, or the other, while also stretching up, and... and...
weel, i do believe a 'i wanna see that damn things' button is much simpler, without sacrificing too much to realism.

S!

DaCool (himself)


FiNaZZi wrote:
- Maybe, for example, let's say that the button "A"
- makes the look goes upwards. Now, if you hold
- "Shift+A" you make your pilot stretch his neck, and
- so on with the other views. Whaddya think? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- <a
- href="http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned
- /"><img
- src="http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/
- reincarnation.jpg" title="Reincarnation" border="0"
- alt="" /></a>
<a
- href="http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned
- /">Are you damned?</a>
<

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:36 PM
hi,

we need a dynamic camera view with different and wide ranges of lens..
next.. a simple klick to jump to gunsight view...

here a small animation of camera movements...hope soon to get one inside of a cockpit in height of pilots view...

http://battlesub.hp.infoseek.co.jp/images/G4M222/G4M01.wmv

http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~jime/images/Me109G6Anim/messer04LAN2.wmv

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:50 AM
In my view cockpits need,

1. ALL GUAGES VISIBLE !!!!....

and usable so we can FLY WITHOUT NEEDING SPEEDBAR!!.
Even if it means some small sacrifice to a totaly realistic cockpit.
In the real world pilots could probably move their point of view to see guages and they had better visual and auditory cues as well.

2. ALL GUAGES READING CORRECTLY!!!.....
a special effort made to make all engine/prop Performance guages reflect performance correctly.
eg Manifold pressure/prop pitch relationsnip.

3. ALL GUAGE NUMERALS/MARKINGS CLEAR.

Some guages are very difficult to read,all i am asking for here is to err towards legibility slightly.

THE AIM OF THE ABOVE IS TO BE ABLE TO SCAN THE COCKPIT AND GET THE SAME INFO THAT A REAL WORLD PILOT WOULD, USING THE ZOOM FUNCTIONS THE GAME ALREADY HAS, AND WHATEVER VIEW METHOD YOU CHOSE,(mouse, hat,TrackIR )

Thanks to OLEG and his TEAM , I hope that BOB can replace FB as my favourite sim!!

Cheers
Shark

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:57 AM
It is a very unimportant thing to have all the cockpit gauges show correctly. I never watch them. For the real pilot, ofcourse yes. For the simmer it is nonsense. You have the speedbar for it.

The important thing for the simmer in aircombat are NOT the cockpit gauges. The MOST important thing is to be able to see OUT of the cockpit. If you're looking at the gauges during aircombat you deserve to be shot down. For a sim like Microsoft Flightsim series ok, the gauges may be important. For an aircombat sim, the gauges are secondary. The #1 important thing is to be able to get a good look OUT of the cockpit.

To be able to get a realistic OUT of the cockpit view, customizable, wide angle views are needed, first and foremost. For comparison, the LOMAC demo gives the player a maximum of 120 degs field of view! In IL2/FB this is a meagre 80 degrees!

Wider field of views will automatically solve a lot of the visibility problems that IL2/FB is plagued with (e.g. 190 cockpit). Wider field of views will also provide for a more immersive feel of flight because you can see more sky, get more sense of speed, feel more like sitting in the cockpit.
And if the field of views are customizable, they should also allow the player to zoom in on a certain spot to take a better look (e.g. instruments).

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 07:51 AM
I Disagree completly,

Dnmy wrote:
- It is a very unimportant thing to have all the
- cockpit gauges show correctly. I never watch them.
- For the real pilot, ofcourse yes. For the simmer it
- is nonsense. You have the speedbar for it.
-
- The important thing for the simmer in aircombat are
- NOT the cockpit gauges. The MOST important thing is
- to be able to see OUT of the cockpit. If you're
- looking at the gauges during aircombat you deserve
- to be shot down. For a sim like Microsoft Flightsim
- series ok, the gauges may be important. For an
- aircombat sim, the gauges are secondary. The #1
- important thing is to be able to get a good look OUT
- of the cockpit.



At least the options in FB do cater for all tastes.You probably could solve most of your problems by just turning the cockpit off.

To get fully immersed in the FB experience you should try joining a online squad and flying combat missions (VEF , VOW, on line wars ) where you need to get back to base with damage, then monitoring oil temp, fuel quantity etc becomes criticaly inportant in your decision making processes.

Your out of cockpit lookout is vital, but Navigation, and fuel management are vital too.Even during a dogfight you must assess your damage and know when to disengage.IN the Battle of Britian this was critical for German crews who had a long flight home and many were lost to ditching in the channel when their fuel ran out.

One of the great new innovations in FB is the advanced engine management, this feature along with the complex engine damage model make a cockpit engine guages essential.This aspect of FB will really add to the BOB experience.

If you just want to fly "Quake like" dogfights fine, they are lots of fun, but only a fraction of the full FB experience.

Cheers
Shark

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:16 AM
Dnmy wrote:
-
The MOST important thing is
- to be able to see OUT of the cockpit. - aircombat sim, The #1
- important thing is to be able to get a good look OUT
- of the cockpit.
-

hi
agree..if I understand 'OUT' as THROUGH the Cockpit..the forward and the gunsight view of the pilot...
..a speedbar is OK ...a instrument panel view to a small second desktop..a feature of multimonitorung..

all this depends on the correct 3D design of refraction problems ..no overframed design of armored windscreen mounting construction.. including all views in pilots head movments view under a warbird canopty..

next: gunsight view...
a short switch as (shift + G..?) leeds to a direct revi/gyroscope view with very snall variation of lens and zoom IN/OUT....closed to reality..and usefull to desktop view..
( changing the axes of the camera view as now including wide zoom in and out.. is not usefull and far away from real gunsight views)

next: a adjustable pilot seat+revi/gyroscope to change pilots eyes view compare to different lens in planes/cockpits..because the game camera view could not be so flexible ..
...otherwise with a dynamic movement game camera design..that's the way


..hope to get some examples soon to post..




...just follow my wingman...
http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~jime/images/Me109G6Anim/messer04LAN2.wmv

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:32 AM
Hi

I've gotta answer this one.


Dnmy wrote:
- It is a very unimportant thing to have all the
- cockpit gauges show correctly. I never watch them.
- For the real pilot, ofcourse yes. For the simmer it
- is nonsense. You have the speedbar for it.

I really do NOT agree.
I did never say the gauge thing was the primary goal of the sim. BUT it should not be judged as unimportant. If you like the speedbar, this is your choice, and i won't discuss it, BUT you should easily understand that some people would like to shut this feature down for more immerssion.

-
- The important thing for the simmer in aircombat are
- NOT the cockpit gauges. The MOST important thing is
- to be able to see OUT of the cockpit. If you're
- looking at the gauges during aircombat you deserve
- to be shot down. For a sim like Microsoft Flightsim
- series ok, the gauges may be important. For an
- aircombat sim, the gauges are secondary. The #1
- important thing is to be able to get a good look OUT
- of the cockpit.

Mostly agree. BUT: Takeoff + Nav + Landing take AT LEAST 90% of your time on an average mission. And on these parts of the flight what you need most is managing you AirCraft and fly it to the proper place. That is done with Gauges, Watch and Compass. Sorry about that.

-
- To be able to get a realistic OUT of the cockpit
- view, customizable, wide angle views are needed,
- first and foremost. For comparison, the LOMAC demo
- gives the player a maximum of 120 degs field of
- view! In IL2/FB this is a meagre 80 degrees!
-

Agreed.
And by the way, we would need better visual references on the maps to navigate without the 'aid' of the minimap icons. And yes, this requires good 'out of the cockpit view'.

- Wider field of views will automatically solve a lot
- of the visibility problems that IL2/FB is plagued
- with (e.g. 190 cockpit). Wider field of views will
- also provide for a more immersive feel of flight
- because you can see more sky, get more sense of
- speed, feel more like sitting in the cockpit.
- And if the field of views are customizable, they
- should also allow the player to zoom in on a certain
- spot to take a better look (e.g. instruments).
-

Probably.



- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:37 AM
Please don't get too rude, RAAFIL2shark. Let's keep this as civil as possible. I don't believe he wants a Quake-Like-Sim.

See you.

DaCool (Himself)

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:02 AM
The reference wasnt to a "Quake like sim", rather to a "Quake like dogfight experience" where you take more risks as you dont mind geting killed.That said, DF servers are great for practice and a bit of fun.

If he is flying IL2FB he has at least picked the best Prop sim around.

But lets not sell Oleg short. The attention to detail and realism that FB has broughe in Flight models, Engine operation,graphics and damage modelling is what , for me , sets this sim apart.When you add a good HOTAS and trackIR you get a great simming experience.

I have to admit as I belong to a Russian Squad I hate having to rely on the Arcade like"Speedbar" to get data I need while flying. In my view it is one of the biggest detrators from my immersion.

Cheers
Shark

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 01:19 PM
hi,RAAFIL2shark ....and all..

let's talk about more progress in cockpit design and pilots camera and gunsight view in the coming game...

one of the most important thing to get the feeling a little bit more to real views in warbirds....as a developer can do to desktop use..

this includes a break with conventionally prospect in design..





...just follow my wingman...
http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~jime/images/Me109G6Anim/messer04LAN2.wmv

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:55 PM
Yeah,
I agree.
That's the reason of my original post.

C U up there.

DaCool (himself)


RAAFIL2shark wrote:
- The reference wasnt to a "Quake like sim", rather to
- a "Quake like dogfight experience" where you take
- more risks as you dont mind geting killed.That said,
- DF servers are great for practice and a bit of fun.
-
- If he is flying IL2FB he has at least picked the
- best Prop sim around.
-
- But lets not sell Oleg short. The attention to
- detail and realism that FB has broughe in Flight
- models, Engine operation,graphics and damage
- modelling is what , for me , sets this sim
- apart.When you add a good HOTAS and trackIR you get
- a great simming experience.
-
- I have to admit as I belong to a Russian Squad I
- hate having to rely on the Arcade like"Speedbar" to
- get data I need while flying. In my view it is one
- of the biggest detrators from my immersion.
-
- Cheers
- Shark
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:37 AM
RAAFIL2shark wrote:
- You probably could solve most of your
- problems by just turning the cockpit off.

Wrong.

Having the cockpit on is not the problem. Having invisible or inaccurate gauges is totally irrelevant. We have the speedbar. It's not for nothing that the speedbar is there.

The field of view from the cockpit is the problem because it is too limited and leads to visibility problems. And that field of view remains exactly the same whether cockpit is on or off. Being able to see just 80 degs is like flying with blinders on. I guess a real military pilot with vision like that wouldn't even be allowed to fly.

The visibility issues in FB are of greater concern than gauges you shouldn't even be looking at during combat.
It's not for nothing that programs pop up to replace the standard methods of how looking around in IL2/FB is done. The standard methods are woefully inadequate.

Accurate gauges are the least of the problems in FB. All too trivial and can be perfectly replaced in a simulation by such things as the speedbar we have in IL2/FB. Widening the field of view is one of the most important things in achieving a better sense of SA, feel of flight and immersion.

The problem is that too much emphasis is put into looking AT the cockpits. But no emphasis at all is being placed on looking OUT of the cockpits. And looking out of the cockpit is what is infinitely more important than staring at gauges. This is true in real life as it is in sims.

As a sidenote: you suggest that i'm NOT part of an online squad flying VOW VEF2. That i'd be some arcade flier or something. That's fine. But do you know for sure? If not, i would suggest you get off from your high horse first.
I mean, who says i haven't shot you down online repeatedly? Don't be so quick to judge things.

Message Edited on 10/18/0304:42AM by Dnmy

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:45 AM
dacool wrote:

- I really do NOT agree.
- I did never say the gauge thing was the primary goal
- of the sim. BUT it should not be judged as
- unimportant. If you like the speedbar, this is your
- choice, and i won't discuss it, BUT you should
- easily understand that some people would like to
- shut this feature down for more immerssion.

I'm not saying i like the speedbar, better than i would like gauges.

I'm only saying that while you're looking at your gauges someone else would rather be looking out of the cockpit find you and shoot you down.

It's an aircombat sim. Not a looking at gauges sim. Oleg would do better to put more info on the speedbar than to concentrate on getting the gauges correct.


Message Edited on 10/18/0304:55AM by Dnmy

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 05:50 AM
Dnmy wrote:
-- I'm not saying i like the speedbar, better than i
- would like gauges.
-
- I'm only saying that while you're looking at your
- gauges someone else would rather be looking out of
- the cockpit find you and shoot you down.
-
- It's an aircombat sim. Not a looking at gauges sim.
- Oleg would do better to put more info on the
- speedbar than to concentrate on getting the gauges
- correct.
-
-
- Message Edited on 10/18/03 04:55AM by Dnmy

What you are saying here is the reason why modern aircraft have HUD,s and Hmd ( helmet mounted displays ) . Thats fine but there are plenty of WW2 sims that you dont need to use a speedbar. You dont need it with most German and US aircraft in FB.WW2 sims should strive to emulate WW2 conditions.And if you WANT a speedbar then you should have the option. But you shouldnt NEED it.


What you want and what I want are not mutually exclusive, a wider field of view would be great, so would be better guages. I switch up and down the views all the time, and my cockpit scan is a lot less frequent during a dogfight, but you are in a dogfight less than 10% of the time in combat missions.

Lets leave it at that.

I am sure the designers will try to help us both out as the more people the game appeals to the more they will sell, and the better the game will be.

Cheers M8

Shark

Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 06:56 AM
Dnmy,

Lighten up bud. We all want a better view out of the cockpit. Hopefully Oleg will give us a little slack this time.

However, that's no reason we can't have a better view at the gauges too. A lot of guys enjoy reading the gauges. I'm one of them. The only reason VEF2/VOW use the speedbar as far as I can tell, is because some of the gauges are hidden.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 07:09 AM
dacool wrote:
- Hi Oleg, Team, and All,
-
- I remember now of a problem that was arisen by many
- and could never be fixed because of il2/FB
- technology choices.That was about the gauges/clocks
- and other instruments that you cannot see because
- they are obstructed by some cockpit feature
- (gunsight, yoke...)

Agree completly

- One of the very best suggestion was a
- 'semitransparent' button that would let you see
- trough those obstructing objects.

Would rather the offending items be moved/modified so the view isnt blocked.In reality the pilot would just shift head position. We have one of these in FB (back/fwd, or side/gunsight) adding lots more i think would be to hard to use in combat.
a dedicated instrument view is another possibility, but as i use Track IR I would prefer to be able to just scan down and zoom in, if necessary, as I do now.

Some wanted this
- button also 'dim' part or all of the cockpit bars to
- see outside simulating both stereoscopic vision and
- possible slight head movement to follow a target.
- I'm now wondering if the dev team has this in mind
- for the new sim because it would be much of an
- improvement for those of us who want to fly 'full
- real' (with no speed bar) and still want to know our
- heading, the time running, and so on.

Dont Agree with dimming bars.I Monouvering aircraft to maintain view seems more natural.Some aircraft are just better than others.


- Also much needed for the new sim would be a clear
- documentation of engine overrev speed and overheat
- temp. This would prevent us to have to use the
- 'hudlike' display to 'learn' the overheat temps...
- Should be much more fun this way... IMHO.

Here.. Here.. totally agree!!!

Maby there could be A practice/training option where the guages all have redlines, greenzones, yellow zones Just like modern aircraft guages.
You could learn the numbers as you practice but have it disabled for "Full Real" combat.
After flying Real life aircraft i found you learn the numbers and the colour bands help, But in simms ,especialy as a VVS Pilot, you fly so many different aircraft that I think we need all the help remembering the numbers we can get.
Even a file listing all the data. Sort of like a mini version of the Flight Manual you get for real aircraft would be great.

Cheers
Shark

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 07:31 AM
Hi Oleg, Team, and All,

Two things that would be nice,

1. I currently have turned off the AI pilot message text so it doesnt clutter my view. As i dont speak Russian or German i have substituted the American voices for all of the other languages. It would be Great to have voice files in English with a Russian or German etc accent, it would make the game better and if i was flying in the Russian or German airforce I would know the language. I think this would make the game more attractive to many people.

2. When spotting aircraft at max range (Dots ) they are easier to see in full zoomed out view. If you zoom in they become harder to see. It would be great to improve this.

It is also easier to pick up Dots in 1024/768 Vid Res. than it is in 1600/1200.

Cheers

Shark

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:41 PM
Rgr Buzz,

But i find it so sad that people suggest such trivial things and forget the big picture.

An aircombat sim isn't about looking at gauges. It's about looking out of the cockpit for bandits. That's where the emphasis should lie.

And because it's a SIM, there can and should be some absolutely legitimate compromises made towards portraying the instruments (i.e. speedbar).



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:47 PM
RAAFIL2shark wrote:
Thats fine but there are plenty of WW2
- sims that you dont need to use a speedbar.

Name them.

Maybe they don't all name it speedbar, but every sim has some way of displaying info onscreen, without forcing the player to look at historically correct gauges.

What you want and what i want are indeed not mutually exclusive, but it's a waste to see time spent on things that are unimportant to the combat simmer.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 02:36 PM
Dnmy,

Dnmy wrote:
-
- RAAFIL2shark wrote:
- Thats fine but there are plenty of WW2
-
-- sims that you dont need to use a speedbar.
-
- Name them.

Well IL2FB is one. You dont need it if you are flying. German, and US aircraft.

Most sims have lots of help options,you can just pick what levil of difficulty you want.
-
- Maybe they don't all name it speedbar, but every sim
- has some way of displaying info onscreen, without
- forcing the player to look at historically correct
- gauges.

The key word I used Was NEED , not FORCED. The only reason Speedbar is used in full real servers is that some VVS aircraft cant read some Key Guages,(see Buzzs Post) This would give the Germans an advantage.

-
- What you want and what i want are indeed not
- mutually exclusive, but it's a waste to see time
- spent on things that are unimportant to the combat
- simmer.

Lighten up,
We all want the best combat sim we can get.
What is a waste of time is up to the designers to decide.
Getting better cockpits is what this thread is about.
That is the view inside AND outside.

Cheers
Shark

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 04:10 PM
BS

IL2/FB is exactly THE sim where you need the speedbar. That's why it's there.

Name any ww2 sim out there and it has info on a speedbar or at least easily accessible without having to look at historically accurate gauges.

For crying out loud FB is about russian planes and in some of the russian planes you can't see the compass. Listing FB as a sim where you don't need the speedbar couldn't be further removed from the truth.

And that's because the cockpits were constructed to be as accurate as possible. I can accept that because there IS a speedbar, and because it is a SIM. It's not a real life plane.
In sims you can't have your cake and eat it too.

That's why i say, less attention to looking AT cockpits and their dials and more attention to looking OUT of the cockpit pls. It's more applicable.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 06:20 PM
The point is the option to use the speedbar will still be there if you want it. What us gauge readers want is a better view of them. If we're talking about being realistic, then FB is wrong because we can't look around things that are in the way like you can in real life. To make up for this Oleg should have made the gauges visable even if it's a little different than the real dash.

The same way that Oleg needs to make some compromises in gauge layout. He needs to make some for view out of the cockpit too. Thinner or transparent frames maybe. Something to mimic looking around these items in real life.

Dmny,

I don't understand your attitude on this thread. Talking about what we'd like on gauge layout doesn't take away what we want on view out of the cockpit. We're at least 1 1/2 years away from BOB. Plenty of time to talk about everything we'd like to see in the game. Are we to just talk about the view out of the cockpit for the next 1 1/2 years?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 07:10 PM
ofcourse not,

but it'd be nice if priorities were kept in mind.

It's like telling Oleg, pls model all the nuts and bolts correctly because i can't see em in the game and i really want to because it's more immersive if i can see every nut and bolt.

It's ridiculous to model everything in the game 100% up to specs, simply because it's a sim. I'm sure you've read the threads about the 190 cockpit visibility. The perfect example where trying to model everything according to specs isn't going to make things more realistic.

It's inevitable that some compromises need to be made. And in this case the totally legit compromise is the speedbar.




/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-18-2003, 07:30 PM
You probably forgot that in the beginning of the Fw190 view threads. I said making a slight compromise from totaly realistic would be a good thing for a sim. Nobody listened, and I gave up. I would like to see the cockpit more user friendly so everybody would fly in it.

I'm sure Oleg has heard all our requests by now. He's going to do it his way no matter how we feel anyway. I probably have the worst eyesight of anybody flying FB. Some help would be great for me. I refuse to go to arcade aids, but I suffer trying to see out of the cockpit. I won't change my style though. I need to feel immersed in the sim, and I can't do that with aids.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 07:46 PM
hi,
re to all..

let's talk more about practical opportunities..

..in general the option to multimonitoring is important...

example: I use my 21,3 zoll monitor (19..to gamers is normal..I guess)..and a second smaller one in some applications...

a small 15.0 monitore down under the main monitor with the view of the panel with all gauges...
and Track IR to use in pilots view through the canopy in all possible lens of the game camera ...as in LockOn or more ...

gunsight view by switching direkt to the gyroscope/revi lens..+ small zoom In/Out...
important: flexible movement of the game camera in height and lens...

that's all I need ..up to now..





...just follow my wingman...
http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~jime/images/Me109G6Anim/messer04LAN2.wmv

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 08:56 PM
RAAFIL2shark wrote:
-
- Maby there could be A practice/training option where
- the guages all have redlines, greenzones, yellow
- zones Just like modern aircraft guages.
- You could learn the numbers as you practice but have
- it disabled for "Full Real" combat.
- After flying Real life aircraft i found you learn
- the numbers and the colour bands help, But in simms
- ,especialy as a VVS Pilot, you fly so many different
- aircraft that I think we need all the help
- remembering the numbers we can get.
- Even a file listing all the data. Sort of like a
- mini version of the Flight Manual you get for real
- aircraft would be great.
-

Ho yeah !
That sounds great !
;-D
Completly agree with you, m8.

CU in air,

DaCool


- Cheers
- Shark
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 09:00 PM
Well,
in all your posts you just seem not to understnad us right:
We AGREE that see in OUT the cockpit is of primary importance. BUT we also think the instruments are not only a decorative feature inside a combat aircraft. Please remember 90%+ of your flight time is navigation and non-combat manoeuvering.
Gauges are vital for that, and vision of the gauges should therefore be improved.
And again, this doesn't mean the rest bcomes umimportant... We're just asking for something to be improved.

Cu in flight,

DaCool (himself)


Dnmy wrote:
- Rgr Buzz,
-
- But i find it so sad that people suggest such
- trivial things and forget the big picture.
-
- An aircombat sim isn't about looking at gauges. It's
- about looking out of the cockpit for bandits. That's
- where the emphasis should lie.
-
- And because it's a SIM, there can and should be some
- absolutely legitimate compromises made towards
- portraying the instruments (i.e. speedbar).
-
-
-
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 01:03 AM
Pilot leans are a must

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 01:10 AM
The problem is easily solved with a "Snap View of the Intsruments" button.

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 01:46 AM
dacool wrote:

- Cu in flight,

Are you sure about that?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

because i think you might be more busy spending 90% of your time looking at gauges to even notice i'm there.
I otoh spend 99% of the time looking outside, 1% looking at gauges.

That's the difference.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-19-2003, 01:58 AM
With better gauges. It could be 1/2%../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 02:00 AM
Second that Buzz.

This is my last comment on the Speedbar thing.

It just seems a shame that there are so many guys spending countless hours making FANTASTIC LOOKING cockpits and due to some guages being obstructed or hard to read, they arnt used to their fullest extent.

If any of you guys are reading this keep up the great work.We love it!!!

Cheers
Shark

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 02:04 PM
here's a wake up call for you

There's a whole contingency of FB players who couldn't care less what the cockpits look like.

You guessed it: the no cockpit guys./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Them guys look at the cockpit and turn if off right away. The modelling effort is not spent on them. But the reason they turn it off is because of the visibility issues with cockpit on. So if you want people to appreciate the cockpits, first take away the visibility issues.

That should be first priority.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 03:08 PM
hi,

I tested the P-51 in X-Plane(vers. 6.7) by switching 'transparent cockpit in forward view' ..
all gauges are clear and best to notice ...
..hmm..maybe a gimmick to training missions...just a option..

..test it (demo X-Plane 7.2)to get Your own vision to this..





...just follow my wingman...
http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~jime/images/Me109G6Anim/messer04LAN2.wmv
http://www.roedelmodell.de/original/Me109/me109-4s.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 05:02 PM
One simple thing you could do to make gauges more visible in some pits is to not display the control stick. I think it looks a bit strange moving about by itself anyway. Could be an option to display or not to display. It might even give you a slight performance benefit to turn it off.

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 06:32 PM
Pls no,

If the control stick is not displayed, there's gonna be people asking where it went, because without the control stick it's never gonna be as immersive as with./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Use the speedbar. And it wouldn't be a bad idea to have more info on the speedbar than just speed, heading and alt.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-19-2003, 06:41 PM
That wasn't much of a wake up call Dnmy. I already mentioned it before you../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 06:55 PM
ok, that was my wake up cue then.

you win the refrigerator./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-19-2003, 07:17 PM
I'll take the brown one../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 10:38 PM
:-D

Dnmy wrote:
- dacool wrote:
-
-- Cu in flight,
-
- Are you sure about that?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- because i think you might be more busy spending 90%
- of your time looking at gauges to even notice i'm
- there.
- I otoh spend 99% of the time looking outside, 1%
- looking at gauges.
-
- That's the difference.
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-19-2003, 10:43 PM
dacool ,

Did you say anything, or do you just like to quote?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 11:05 PM
Mensagrad wrote:
- The problem is easily solved with a "Snap View of
- the Intsruments" button.


Isn't he right! Argument is pretty silly IMHO. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Because real pilots were able to move their heads, we must place the gauges differently! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Why not have a lean to see the damn compass button? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 09:20 AM
I said:

;-D


Because quoted text did not deserve more comments.
:-)


Buzz_25th wrote:
- dacool ,
-
- Did you say anything, or do you just like to quote?
-

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 05:16 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif ?

oh well..i thought i made a funny comment /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Buzz_25th
10-20-2003, 06:18 PM
dacool,

Is this what your going for../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25th_Buzz
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 07:22 PM
no offense,
;-D means: amusing !

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 07:23 PM
I believe we get a little off topic at the time ;-)))



Buzz_25th wrote:
- dacool,
-
- Is this what your going for

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 09:46 AM
hi,
example of double display:

one screen with the original ingame panel...
(or smaller 15 inch to put down under the main screen...)
second with full screen to cockpit/+gunsight view..

http://www.mikesflightdeck.com/multiple_monitors_1.htm



http://tigert.gimp.org/vatsim/cockpit-stuff/df-pa28.jpeg

...just follow my wingman...
http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~jime/images/Me109G6Anim/messer04LAN2.wmv
http://www.roedelmodell.de/original/Me109/me109-4s.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 04:14 PM
Re, Starfighter,

About double display:
1- not every body has proper vid card for that.
2- not every body has 2 monitor or room to fit them.
3- (more important) it kills immersion to have to look at differents monitors for instruments.
But:
Multiple display is the future for panoramic view, on that, i agree.

That's my opinion.

CU

DaCool (Himself)


starfighter1 wrote:
- hi,
- example of double display:
-
- one screen with the original ingame panel...
- (or smaller 15 inch to put down under the main
- screen...)
- second with full screen to cockpit/+gunsight view..
-
- <a
- href="http://www.mikesflightdeck.com/multiple_moni
- tors_1.htm"
- target=_blank>http://www.mikesflightdeck.com/multi
- ple_monitors_1.htm</a>
-
-
-
-
- <a
- href="http://tigert.gimp.org/vatsim/cockpit-stuff/
- df-pa28.jpeg"
- target=_blank>http://tigert.gimp.org/vatsim/cockpi
- t-stuff/df-pa28.jpeg</a>
-
-
- ...just follow my wingman...
- <a
- href="http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~jime/images/Me109
- G6Anim/messer04LAN2.wmv"
- target=_blank>http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~jime/imag
- es/Me109G6Anim/messer04LAN2.wmv</a>
<img
- src="http://www.roedelmodell.de/original/Me109/me1
- 09-4s.jpg">
-
-

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 04:31 PM
There will never be semitransparent details. Its absolutely unrealistic.
Instead of that we plan to make smoothly move-able head/look

Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 05:13 PM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- There will never be semitransparent details. Its
- absolutely unrealistic.
- Instead of that we plan to make smoothly move-able
- head/look
-
- Oleg Maddox
- 1C:Maddox Games
-

Would you consider having padlock not break when enemies are obscured by the canopy frames (not the fuselage, just the frames, which you would generally be able to see around by moving your head, or simply because of binocular vision in real life)?

Can't wait to see the advances in the view system for BoB. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 05:20 PM
Totally agree. As option, controlable from a host /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

Dnmy wrote:
- Rgr Buzz,
-
- But i find it so sad that people suggest such
- trivial things and forget the big picture.
-
- An aircombat sim isn't about looking at gauges. It's
- about looking out of the cockpit for bandits. That's
- where the emphasis should lie.
-
- And because it's a SIM, there can and should be some
- absolutely legitimate compromises made towards
- portraying the instruments (i.e. speedbar).
-
-
-
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 05:24 PM
What about if we'll have for all flyable the modes like in FB and also the Generic cockpit (1 type for single seart figherts, one type like Suka two seater, one tipe for bombers with standards seats of gunners)?


But it doesn't measn that I plan generic cockpit for these AI that have not them. Even do not ask. Its contradict with many things...



Buzz_25th wrote:
- You probably forgot that in the beginning of the
- Fw190 view threads. I said making a slight
- compromise from totaly realistic would be a good
- thing for a sim. Nobody listened, and I gave up. I
- would like to see the cockpit more user friendly so
- everybody would fly in it.
-
- I'm sure Oleg has heard all our requests by now.
- He's going to do it his way no matter how we feel
- anyway. I probably have the worst eyesight of
- anybody flying FB. Some help would be great for me.
- I refuse to go to arcade aids, but I suffer trying
- to see out of the cockpit. I won't change my style
- though. I need to feel immersed in the sim, and I
- can't do that with aids.
-
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- 25th_Buzz
- <center>
<img
- src="http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/anderson3
- .jpg">
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 05:51 PM
Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- Totally agree. As option, controlable from a host
-
- Dnmy wrote:
-- Rgr Buzz,
--
-- But i find it so sad that people suggest such
-- trivial things and forget the big picture.
--
-- An aircombat sim isn't about looking at gauges. It's
-- about looking out of the cockpit for bandits. That's
-- where the emphasis should lie.
--
-- And because it's a SIM, there can and should be some
-- absolutely legitimate compromises made towards
-- portraying the instruments (i.e. speedbar).
--
- Oleg Maddox
- 1C:Maddox Games


hi,
yes ..agree too..
indeed that's the point....

but by the way : do the designers always consider this ???

+ here a real study about this...

http://www.triplane.net/190/190view.htm

http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/Pics/Military/EarlyYears/11.jpg




...just follow my wingman...
http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~jime/images/Me109G6Anim/messer04LAN2.wmv
http://www.roedelmodell.de/original/Me109/me109-4s.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 07:28 AM
Oleg, It's good to hear your thoughts on this.

I like the fact that you are planning on better head control in the next sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Could you comment on the field of view? Any plans on doing more than 80 degrees? Have you looked at the 120 degree view in LOMAC?

I'm not sure if FB already has this, but what about support for those new extra wide screens. Do you plan on supporting these new wide screen displays? If so would they support greater than 80 degrees of view?

Thanks, I can't wait for your next sim :-)!!

IL2 and FB are my favorite sims of all time!

Thanks,


:FI:SnoopBaron

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_07.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 04:27 PM
Hello Oleg,

Nice to have your opinion and plans... even if i don't know if I agree until i can 'experience' your new viewing mode.
Thanks for the answer Mr Maddox.

DaCool (Himself)



Oleg_Maddox wrote:
- There will never be semitransparent details. Its
- absolutely unrealistic.
- Instead of that we plan to make smoothly move-able
- head/look
-
- Oleg Maddox
- 1C:Maddox Games
-

XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 09:54 AM
Greetings all!

Just to pop in with my $.02. Please make sure that whatever graphics engine winds up being used in BoB & later sims it is capable of rendering the cockpits, engine cowling & wingroots in such a way that the proper eye position can be used. Without having to make compromises because of the clipping problems. Every plane in this game (with the exception of the He-111) should have some engine cowling visible from the cockpit, even the 109s, 190s & Migs. (The most Claustrophobic planes in the game). Some, such as the P-47 should have a vast expanse of engine cowling visible. See here;
http://home1.gte.net/res0rrxk/pictures/P-47pit2.jpg
and here;http://home1.gte.net/res0rrxk/pictures/P-47pit1.JPG
Note that the view in the first photo looks directly through the gunsight. Notice how close the top of the gunsight is to the top of the armor glass. Also please note how much engine cowling is visible. It's not the little sliver we see in the game! The non aiming view should be even slightly higher than this. Most photos of P-47s in flight show the pilots eyes about even with the horizontal canopy frames. Not 50mm below them. Sorry if I sound short but this particular view issue has me kind of frustrated.

Also please don't make any compromises in the eye position to make the gauges more visable in the straight forward view. Dnmy is right in this regard. A pilot has to have his eyes & his mind "out there" not in the cockpit if he is to survive.

I do not agree about the unimportance of being able to see the gauges however. I like to fly long missions in realtime. a regular gauges scan is important as is being able to see the primary flight instruments. If they had made the control stick in the I-16 & I-153 50mm shorter than it is would you have noticed? I wouldn't have! & I would be able to see the turn/slip indicator & the compass. If they had made the body of the gunsight in the Yaks & early IL2s 30mm shorter than they are would you have noticed? I wouldn't have! & I would be able to see the compass. If they had made the control stick 50mm shorter and angled it back 10 degrees in the La-7 would you have noticed? I wouldn't have! & I would be able to see the tach. & this entire 3 page thread wouldn't exist!!!! . I'm not lobbying for changes in FB. I know it's too late for that. I'm just asking that they keep this in mind for the next sims. It's great that Oleg is planning head movements in the next sim. (if I understand him correctly). But If a slight edit of a cockpit detail makes it unneccessary in a given plane then this would be preferable imho.

Thanks for the oportunity to ramble! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cheers.....Smokin256



Message Edited on 11/02/0312:59AM by Smokin256