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Blutarski2004
06-14-2004, 09:11 AM
Anyone interested in 8th Air force operations over NWE should take a look at the book MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR MANUAL, by Ron Freeman - available now in paperback and well worth the modest price. I know that the title sounds a bit stupid, but there is a huge amount of really interesting data in this book. For example, the author has apparently spent a great deal of time studying the technical reports for various a/c serving in the 8AF and give information on a lot of things which we have been discussing, debating, and arguing. For example -

P51 -
According to Freeman, the wing-shedding problem primarily involved the P51D model. The cause was finally identified as a failure of the landing gear locking system (new and different design from B & C models) to properly latch closed due to insufficient hydraulic pressure.

G-suits -
Gives details on who had what when, and when 8FC was finally fully equipped (late 44).

P38J/L problems -
Engine problems were never really solved and limited even these late model P38s to a maximum operational ceiling of 22,000 ft. The new dive brake was also apparently quite unreliable. According to Freeman, it was the inability of the P38s to reliably operate at high (and cold) bomber escort altitudes which really caused their transfer to 9AF for low level tactical work.

P47M -
Apparently there were several engine problems identified with the P47M BEFORE the seizure problems appeared - uneven cylinder head cooling, broken spark plug insulaters, and so on. The engine seizure problems came later. It took so long to solve the engine difficulties because there was not a single problem, but a variety of problems. The P47M, according to Freeman, was finally sorted out in time to see some actual combat service in the last few months of the war, all with 56FG f course.

B17 & B24 -
Mor than you ever wanted to know about the various models and armaments of these a/c. Good explanation of problems with hydraulic engine supercharger regulators, for example.

On top of this, there is also a tremendous amount of good material on a number of other a/c (Mosquitos in USAAF service for example), operations, tactics, training, radio comms, radar, command & control, bombs and ordnance, special designs (like Azon and Aphrodite), efficiency of eather forecasting, etc, etc, etc. It goes on and on. I recommend the book.

BLUTARSKI

Blutarski2004
06-14-2004, 09:11 AM
Anyone interested in 8th Air force operations over NWE should take a look at the book MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR MANUAL, by Ron Freeman - available now in paperback and well worth the modest price. I know that the title sounds a bit stupid, but there is a huge amount of really interesting data in this book. For example, the author has apparently spent a great deal of time studying the technical reports for various a/c serving in the 8AF and give information on a lot of things which we have been discussing, debating, and arguing. For example -

P51 -
According to Freeman, the wing-shedding problem primarily involved the P51D model. The cause was finally identified as a failure of the landing gear locking system (new and different design from B & C models) to properly latch closed due to insufficient hydraulic pressure.

G-suits -
Gives details on who had what when, and when 8FC was finally fully equipped (late 44).

P38J/L problems -
Engine problems were never really solved and limited even these late model P38s to a maximum operational ceiling of 22,000 ft. The new dive brake was also apparently quite unreliable. According to Freeman, it was the inability of the P38s to reliably operate at high (and cold) bomber escort altitudes which really caused their transfer to 9AF for low level tactical work.

P47M -
Apparently there were several engine problems identified with the P47M BEFORE the seizure problems appeared - uneven cylinder head cooling, broken spark plug insulaters, and so on. The engine seizure problems came later. It took so long to solve the engine difficulties because there was not a single problem, but a variety of problems. The P47M, according to Freeman, was finally sorted out in time to see some actual combat service in the last few months of the war, all with 56FG f course.

B17 & B24 -
Mor than you ever wanted to know about the various models and armaments of these a/c. Good explanation of problems with hydraulic engine supercharger regulators, for example.

On top of this, there is also a tremendous amount of good material on a number of other a/c (Mosquitos in USAAF service for example), operations, tactics, training, radio comms, radar, command & control, bombs and ordnance, special designs (like Azon and Aphrodite), efficiency of eather forecasting, etc, etc, etc. It goes on and on. I recommend the book.

BLUTARSKI

JorBR
06-14-2004, 10:52 AM
Thx for the reference, already ordered, about US$25 at Amazon.

"Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!"

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-14-2004, 10:58 AM
Sounds interesting...thx http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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BigKahuna_GS
06-14-2004, 12:35 PM
S!


__________________________________________________ __________________________
Blutarski2004 wrote--
G-suits -
Gives details on who had what when, and when 8FC was finally fully equipped (late 44).
__________________________________________________ __________________________


Thanks for passing this on ! Looks very interesting. If it is not too long can you post the part about when and who recived G-Suits ?

I forwarded the the thesis paper off of Bud Anderson web site reporting that all 8th AF fighter pilots recived G-suits starting in June of 44'. Evidently that wasnt good enough. With more detailed info, possibly Oleg will model in G-suit usage.

_______

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Blutarski2004
06-14-2004, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
wrote--
G-suits -
Thanks for passing this on ! Looks very interesting. If it is not too long can you post the part about when and who recived G-Suits ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I'll try to get the detailed quote out tomw. IIRC, 339FG was completely equipped with the US compressed air from about mid-1944 for evaluation of the suits under action conditions. Results were highly positive and 8FC FG's were successively equipped until the entire 8FC was so fitted by late (Nov??) 1944.

How's Oleg going to represent this ...;-)...?

I have also wondered whether these g-suits may have contributed to the perception that US fighters could out-turn their German opponents. In the case of high speed high G turnfights, the extra G (6G versus 5G according to commentary) made possible by the suits could easily have been decisive in determining the victor.

BLUTARSKI

PzKpfw
06-14-2004, 10:42 PM
Concerning G-suits Dean, states *G-suits were issued to the 4th & 339th FGs in June 1944.

*See: Dean Francis.H. America's Hundred-Thousand.. p.335

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

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The one that gets you is the one that you'll never see.
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"After 44 we called the new models the 'bumps', because every new model had another bump or hump on the fuselage, which naturally was particularly bad for the flight characteristics of the aircraft."

Walter Krupinski: on the Bf 109...
----

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"The damn Jerries have stuck their heads in the meatgrinder, and I've got hold of the handle."

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. December 26, 1944.

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"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

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For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-Jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary period, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which is likely to be the more ominous for the Axis--an American decision that this is sport, or that it is business."
--D. W. Brogan, The American Character

Blutarski2004
06-15-2004, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
If it is not too long can you post the part about when and who recived G-Suits ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Herewith quote the relevant text regarding G-suits from MIGHT EIGHTH WAR MANUAL:

QUOTE-

G-SUITS
Pre-war work had been carried out in the US to perfect some form of pressure suit that would prevent pilot 'blackou' in aircraft performaing sharp manoeuvres at speed. The benefit in fighter combat was clear, for the prevention of blackout would allow a pliot to make tighter turns. The Eight Air Force became interested in the American Berger anti-G suits in September 1943 and in early 1944 acquired sufficient to conduct tests. Comparative tests were run with the RAF water pressure anti-G device, the Frank suit. The results showed both equally effective, and as 9th Air Force had a priority on the Berger suit, VIII FC decided for the time being to use the Frank suit as this was more readily available. During April 1944 the 4th Group gace the suit an extended trial but pilots took a dislike to it because of bulk, weight, heat and discomfort, to say nothin of the difficulties if it sprang a leak. Faced with this disapproval, VIII FC decided to abandon the Frank and wait for the Berger. By 3 June sufficient Berger G-3 suits had been obtained from 9th Air Force to equip the 339th Group, who quickly appreciated the benefits and wore the suits on every mission. A larger supply of G-3s was not available until October, but all groups were equipped by November.

-UNQUOTE

BLUTARSKI

p1ngu666
06-15-2004, 01:01 PM
so we need a "late" p51,p47 and p38? with g suits
and maybe spits too?
im guessing it would need a different fm cos of diff blackout

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Blutarski2004
06-15-2004, 01:22 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by p1ngu666:
so we need a "late" p51,p47 and p38? with g suits
and maybe spits too?
im guessing it would need a different fm cos of diff blackout
QUOTE]


..... I'm not sure that a different FM would be required. Nothing here would change the way the planes flew. I think that a tweak of the grey-out/black-out threshold would do the job.

BLUTARSKI

SkyChimp
06-15-2004, 05:56 PM
That is an excellent book. It's got maps of all the 8th AF bases in England, too.

I don't think anyone knows more about the 8th AF than Freeman. He's got some other books on it as well.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/halfstaff.gif

BigKahuna_GS
06-16-2004, 02:22 AM
S!

__________________________________________________ ________________________
I'm not sure that a different FM would be required. Nothing here would change the way the planes flew. I think that a tweak of the grey-out/black-out threshold would do the job.

BLUTARSKI
__________________________________________________ _________________________


Excellent Blutarski, you are right on the money too about the F/Ms of aircraft NOT changing. If and I say If, Oleg decides to tweak the grayout/blackout onset to that of g-suit usage it would be very nice on his part. This would not result in an advantage for US planes, as it would be the same as german or russian planes in this reguard. G-load is the same for all planes, so i am not sure how this would all work out.

Oleg felt that there was no true advantage in actual combat from the Brit/US g-suit because of the advantage the germans held from a reclined seat position. It other words the g-suit made things just even not better for Brit/US pilots.

Scientific tests tended to lean in favor of the g-suit vs seat position in WW2 type aircraft. The best solution was utilizing both g-suit and reclined seat position.

___



First G-suits used by Canadians & Brits

Allied pilots would have all recieved g-suits much earlier in the war but secrecy over their existance needed to be maintained for the all important "Operation OverLord" D-Day Invasion. It turned out that the allies didnt need to keep g-suits a secret and save them for D-Day use as the Luftwaffe had already suffered severe losses by that point in the war and were not much of a threat to the D-Day Operations.

http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/csa_sectors/human_pre/cao/osm_aviation.asp#anti-g

While seat angle is important, the G-suit is the most important
piece of equipment.


The RCAF Institute of Aviation Medicine
World War II Jump-Starts Aviation Medicine in Canada
The Anti-Gravity Suit and the Human Centrifuge
Pressure Suits
Helmets and Oxygen Masks
Ejection Seats
Decompression Sickness
Motion Sickness
A Legacy for the Space Program
References
PDF Version


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
06-16-2004, 02:50 AM
S!


What does this mean ?
_______________________________________________
Error

Message Body is a mandatory field. You must enter a value for it.
_______________________________________________


It wont let me post information from refrence web sites sometimes.

Like here :



First G-suits used by Canadians & Brits

Allied pilots would have all recieved g-suits much earlier in the war but secrecy over their existance needed to be maintained for the all important "Operation OverLord" D-Day Invasion. It turned out that the allies didnt need to keep g-suits a secret and save them for D-Day use as the Luftwaffe had already suffered severe losses by that point in the war and were not much of a threat to the D-Day Operations.

http://www.space.gc.ca/asc/eng/csa_sectors/human_pre/cao/osm_aviation.asp#anti-g


_____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Blutarski2004
06-16-2004, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
That is an excellent book. It's got maps of all the 8th AF bases in England, too.

I don't think anyone knows more about the 8th AF than Freeman. He's got some other books on it as well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... An impressive piece of work and a superb bargain at the price, compared to the typical warmed-over WW2 schlock which sits on bookstore shelves. I was surprised to discover that Ron Freeman is apparently an Englishman.

BLUTARSKI

k5054
06-16-2004, 09:42 AM
Roger (not Ron) Freeman is indeed English, and when he was a kid lived in East Anglia where all the 8th AF bases were, he saw them go out and come back, and of course met the crews off-duty. Hence the interest, and of course he is the best historian of the 8th. Others in the series are The Mighty Eighth, a narrative history, The Mighty Eighth War Diary, dates and data for every mission, and the Mighty Eighth in Color, photos and marking details.
For more on the P-51 structural problems try his Mustang: Combat Profile, lots of info about the mods and changes carried out on new 51s before issue to the 8th, and also on use (and discontinuance) of 150 fuel. He has also written a book or two about the B-17.

Blutarski2004
06-16-2004, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by k5054:
Roger (not Ron) Freeman is indeed English, and when he was a kid lived in East Anglia where all the 8th AF bases were, he saw them go out and come back, and of course met the crews off-duty. Hence the interest, and of course he is the best historian of the 8th. Others in the series are The Mighty Eighth, a narrative history, The Mighty Eighth War Diary, dates and data for every mission, and the Mighty Eighth in Color, photos and marking details.
For more on the P-51 structural problems try his Mustang: Combat Profile, lots of info about the mods and changes carried out on new 51s before issue to the 8th, and also on use (and discontinuance) of 150 fuel. He has also written a book or two about the B-17.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Indeed ROGER Freeman. Thank you for both the correction and the background bio. It sounds like I must track down his other books as well.

BLUTARSKI

Snuffy_Hadden
06-19-2004, 02:19 PM
Mr. Freeman is by far the best historian of the 8th.

I have almost all his books.