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Lunahod
04-27-2004, 05:43 AM
According to my knowledge, there was an soviet attack against Japan at the end of the wor. During this small campaign Il-10 were also moving some mud. So perhaps we are seeing the bird under PF title, since it didn't show up in the IL-2 series. Does anyone know any plans involving Il-10?

Lunahod
04-27-2004, 05:43 AM
According to my knowledge, there was an soviet attack against Japan at the end of the wor. During this small campaign Il-10 were also moving some mud. So perhaps we are seeing the bird under PF title, since it didn't show up in the IL-2 series. Does anyone know any plans involving Il-10?

VW-IceFire
04-27-2004, 07:21 AM
There was one partially built but never finished. I believe Oleg has that model ATM. No idea if it'll go anywhere or not...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Gronded4ever
04-27-2004, 11:46 AM
I hoped to see this plane in the Sturmovik seaquel "I-10 The Beast" (his NATO name). Based on Corean war.
But some one thought diferent and started working on BoB and Pacific Fighters.
I find WW2 a bit boring. But I`m still going to play Pacific Fighters and BoB when they come out

Now, what about that I-10? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Huckebein_UK
04-27-2004, 01:17 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif'WW2 boring'? S'the most intense air-air combat yer gonna find mate! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ah well, each to his own!

Huckebein
Il2skins.com for skins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Huckebein_UK
04-27-2004, 01:17 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif'WW2 boring'? S'the most intense air-air combat yer gonna find mate! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ah well, each to his own!

Huckebein
Il2skins.com for skins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Huckebein_UK
04-27-2004, 01:19 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif 'WW2 boring'? S'the most intense air-air combat yer gonna find mate... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ah well, each to his own!

Huckebein
Il2skins.com for skins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SkyChimp
04-27-2004, 07:48 PM
I hope not. Add it to FB, but leave PF pure and unadulterated by Russian planes.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/wildsig.jpg

Aztek_Eagle
04-28-2004, 12:35 AM
what the......... whats wrong wiht u, russians did fight in the pacific to u know? dont speak for all of us

http://www.angelfire.com/art2/robertosgallery/CORSAIR8.JPG

Giganoni
04-28-2004, 01:45 AM
I think Russia played a big part in the early war..with the incident in 39, and how Japan saw Russia as its biggest threat even for a little while during the Pacific war. They had home defense squadrons even during the Doolittle raid not because they feared America, but soviet heavy bombers. Russia and Japan have a long military history together..fighting four times that I can remember at least..Russo-Japanese war, interfering with Russian revolution along with their fellow American troops, 1939 incident, and the Manchuria offensive August 1945.

WUAF_Badsight
04-28-2004, 03:50 AM
+ the fact that the IL-10 is a way cool plane

Huckebein_UK
04-28-2004, 11:33 AM
Lots of people tend to let their preconception of Russia being a predominantly 'European' country cloud their judgement when it comes to involvement in the Pacific campaign; remember that the vast majority of Russia is Asian, and it's borders are in very close proximity to Japan... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Huckebein_UK
http://www.fpscentral.com/uploads/sig_copy17.jpg
http://www.fpscentral.com/uploads/sig1_copy2.jpg
Il2skins.com for skins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lazio5
04-28-2004, 05:33 PM
they should have attacked Japan earlier.

http://freespace.virgin.net/s.winy/yellowavi.gif

SkyChimp
04-28-2004, 05:51 PM
Don't mistake my desire to keep Russian planes out of PF as a misunderstanding about the nature of the Soviet contribution to the war with Japan. I'm quite aware of the conflicts between Japan and the Soviet Union before and during WWII.

If these conflicts need to be simulated, then I simply think an add-on to FB would be a more appropriate platform.

In the scheme of things, the Soviet contribution to the war on Japan was, while interesting, extremely minimal. Even their campaigns in the Kuriles, Manchuria and Korea were tantamount to land-grabs, and were prosecuted against ill-equipped and depleted Japanese armies, with next to no air-engagements.

There's a lot of worthy material to simulate before concentrating on the Japanese/Soviet conficts. Let's see US, Australian, New Zealand, British, Dutch, etc actions, which constituted the principal portion of the war, simulated before concentrating on Soviet involvement.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/wildsig.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-28-2004, 11:43 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

SkyChimp:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...and were prosecuted against ill-equipped and depleted Japanese armies, with next to no air-engagements.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The largest air and tank battles between the World Wars happened not in Spain but in Mongolia and China--with massive bomber formations of 60+ bombers with as many escorts and interceptors (both Soviet and Japanese missions). High altitude bombers destroying large airfields packed with parked aircraft happened several times to the Japanese who never expected such a thing could happen.

Also the first massive carrier operations (by Japanese of course).

Its ~all~ here ---&gt; http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/sino-japanese.htm

DB bombers made the first missions over Japanese home islands (dropping propaganda leaflets).

China is a BIG place http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Huckebein_UK
04-29-2004, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lazio5:
they should have attacked Japan earlier.

http://freespace.virgin.net/s.winy/yellowavi.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair point. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

--------------
Huckebein_UK
http://www.fpscentral.com/uploads/sig_copy17.jpg
http://www.fpscentral.com/uploads/sig1_copy2.jpg
Il2skins.com for skins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jeroen_R90S
04-29-2004, 10:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

SkyChimp:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...and were prosecuted against ill-equipped and depleted Japanese armies, with next to no air-engagements.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The largest air and tank battles between the World Wars happened not in Spain but in Mongolia and China--with massive bomber formations of 60+ bombers with as many escorts and interceptors (both Soviet and Japanese missions). High altitude bombers destroying large airfields packed with parked aircraft happened several times to the Japanese who never expected such a thing could happen.

Also the first massive carrier operations (by Japanese of course).

Its ~all~ here ---&gt; http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/sino-japanese.htm

DB bombers made the first missions over Japanese home islands (dropping propaganda leaflets).

China is a BIG place http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for this link Lexx; didn't know the Chinese had so many Russian aircraft. Got some reading to do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So the I-153 against Zero-fight we currently have isn't that unrealistic at all!

Jeroen

LEXX_Luthor
04-29-2004, 06:09 PM
Well, a little Questioning of *where* the 7 December 1941 Japanese pilots got their amazing combat skills reveals alot. Same with German pilots and their skills learned in Spain. Same with Soviet pilots...but their military leadership were 99% Exterminated by Stalin in political purges after 1937 and the soldiers and pilots were largely left to die on Easter Front 1941.

One of my fave stories,...found under "1939"...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>By concentrating on the second and third Chinese flights (with one shotai each), only left one Ki-27 taking on the most experienced of the Chinese pilots (Ma and Teng). Although the Japanese, First Lieutenant Yoshio Sotomura (47th Class), also was a senior pilot, he made the critical error fighting to the strengths of the Chinese (probably as a result under-estimating the Chinese pilots and their inferior planes).

Instead of fighting in the vertical plane where the Ki-27 had the advantage, Sotomura got into a turning fight with Teng. While Teng kept Sotomura occupied, Ma climbed above the two and bounced the Japanese from behind, hitting the Ki-27 in the fuel tanks. Smoke poured from the Ki-27 as Sotomura tried to escape. Evidently damaged, the Ki-27 could not pull away from the normally slower I-15bis.

Ma was able to close to 50m and appeared to hit the Japanese pilot with gunfire as, all of a sudden, the Ki-27 stopped easive action and flew straight with level wings. At this critical juncture, all four of Ma's ShKAS machine guns jammed. Nevertheless, the Ki-27 was done for and it crashed shortly afterwards. The Japanese pilot died of his injuries. Although, he did not hit the Japanese, Teng contributed to the kill through fine teamwork with his element leader. The Japanese fighters returned claiming 11 shot down against a reported 20 plus I-15bis for the loss of two fighters (Harada and Sotomura).

~ http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/sino-japanese.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Where did these two (2) rare high skilled Chinese pilots get their combat experience? Still, most Chinese pilots were ~very~ poorly trained and most importantly, sacrificed by the corrupt command of Chiang.

Hundreds, if not thousands, of lesser Chinese pilots simply flew into mountains...(a hint for Luthier to make Kuban~esque style mountain map) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Nimits
04-30-2004, 08:07 PM
The Russian-Japanese battles took place well before the beginning of WWII in the PTO. Shoot, we're still "missing" Poland, France, and Russo-Finnish War from FB. I would think those sort of things would take priority to the (in the grand scheme of things) fairly minor Russian-Japanese skirmishes.

They could be interesting (but I agree with skychimp, they belong more in the scope of FB than PF).

LEXX_Luthor
04-30-2004, 09:13 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Name &lt;CENSORED&gt; to avoid embarassing the poster:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Russian-Japanese battles took place well before the beginning of WWII in the PTO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL the after-Polish invasion story below includes Saburo Sakai as interceptor pilot... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Operations

3 October 1939

On 3 October the Kulishenko's group attacked Hankou aerodrome, which by then was in the deep rear of the enemy. The SBs could not reach this far and the Japanese did not expect any attacks. In the open the Japanese had located a naval aviation aerodrome designated "Base W." It was also used by pilots of Army Aviation. On this day the airbase prepared to receive new aircraft ferried from Japan and representatives of the fleet command and the city authorities had assembled there.

Nine DB-3s flew to the target unobserved, in a tight wedge, maintaining radio silence. They attacked as the ceremony was in progress. Aircraft stood in four rows, wing tip to wing tip. From an altitude of 8700 meters the Soviet volunteers bombed them with a mix of high explosive, fragmentation-high explosive and incendiary bombs. According to the reports of the crews, most of the bombs exploded along the rows of aircraft, which were tossed in every direction from the force of the blasts, with many burning. Antiaircraft was silent and only a single fighter took off from the enormous bonfire below. In it flew the later famous Japanese ace Saburo Sakai, but he was unable to catch the departing and lightened DB-3s. The Japanese identified the unknown bombers as SBs and were very surprised at their appearance.

Reportedly 64 aircraft were destroyed or damaged, with 130 people killed and 300 wounded. The fuel reserves burned of three hours. Japanese sources confirm the loss of fifty machines. Killed were seven senior officers of Captain 1st Rank and higher and twelve more were wounded. Amongst the latter was Rear Admiral Tsukahara, commander of the 1st Rengo Kokutai. A period of mourning was declared and the airfield commandant was shot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Lieutenant (junior grade) Kanetake Okazaki (Class 62) of the 12th Kokutai was killed during the day.

under "1939" ---&gt; http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/sino-japanese.htm

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Given the successful Polish dispersal of aircraft just before Germany attacked Poland a month before this story, this was probably a more successful airfield attack then any Luftwaffe (or Soviet lol) attack in Poland.

And there was more...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>14 October 1939

The attack on Hankou aerodrome was repeated on 14 October. Twelve DB-3s flew to the target, again led by Kulishenko. But just after dropping their bombs they were attacked by Japanese fighters and three bombers received damage. Wounded, Kulishenko flew his bomber as far as the city Wangxian, where he landed on the Yangtze River about 100-150 m. from the bank. After the aircraft came to a halt, he lowered the landing gear and the aircraft began to sink. Kulishenko died of his wounds. The aircraft was later pulled from the water and repaired.

Reportedly on this occasion at Hankou 36 Japanese aircraft were destroyed by the bombing. It is possible that the Japanese suffered even greater losses - about forty naval and army machines. Later there was a third attack which raised Japanese losses (according to Soviet reports) to 136 aircraft. One of the wounded airmen at Hankou was the ace-to-be Mototsuna Yoshida of the 12th Kokutai (14 victories) while PO3c Isamu Ochi (Pilot 41) from the same unit was killed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>lol

I did it...no format errors.

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Fri April 30 2004 at 08:25 PM.]

Korolov
04-30-2004, 09:42 PM
So, any one of you history geniuses want to tell the rest of us the exact date Japan invaded China?

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Nimits
04-30-2004, 09:45 PM
Your point being? These opeations took place in October, 1939. World War II (i.e. involving the Western Allies) did not get underway in the Pacific until December, 1941, some twenty-six months later. Thus, the Japanese-Russian skirmishes were beyond the natural scope of a WWII PTO sim. Not saying they absolutely shouldn't be in there, but they were preceeding and periphial operations.

LEXX_Luthor
04-30-2004, 09:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>natural scope of a WWII PTO sim.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL we have a volunteer naturalist. Some fundamentalist tells how nature is supposed to be http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Japan invades China in 1931? lol we dunno, but the Soviet air force seems to have gotten involved in 1937. And there were some Chinese~american volunteer pilots flying Soviet fighters in China, like white skin USA volunteers flying I~16s in Spain against the Germans and Italians.

The "air road" used by Soviets to supply their air bases in China is similar to the Burma Road in concept. The stories of air force people flying from USSR into China is some fascinating tales.

ImpStarDuece
05-01-2004, 02:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nimits:
Your point being? These opeations took place in October, 1939. World War II (i.e. involving the Western Allies) did not get underway in the Pacific until December, 1941, some twenty-six months later. Thus, the Japanese-Russian skirmishes were beyond the natural scope of a WWII PTO sim. Not saying they absolutely shouldn't be in there, but they were preceeding and periphial operations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WWII has many different starting dates depending on where you live and who's books you read/studied at school. For the Japanese the Pacific War is just a continuation of their aim of establishing the "East Asian Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere" a PC way of saying that they should kick all the foreigners out of Asia, subugate all of Korea and large parts of China (often referred to as the "Western Resource Area"), force an encroaching communist Russia to look at Europe rather than Asia to spread its sphere of influence and to force the major Pacific powers the USA and Britain and France - if you include the colonial states- into recognising its dominance in the region and to treat it with respect.

WWII did not just involve the western allies and as such the war can really be seen as a spread of conflicts, major and minor, between many many different powers. Russian and Finland, Russia and Poland, Japan and China/Korea, Japan and Russia, Japan and France as well as the eurocentric dominated European, Nth African, Pacific and MEd theaters.

This is a conflict of monumental scale and to ignore "peripheral operations" just because they didn't invlove the Western Powers is to diminish the sacrifices and achievements of those brave men and women who fought for their countries.

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

LEXX_Luthor
05-01-2004, 09:13 AM
Well said. The Winter War in Finland happened "before" many people say World War 2 began for the Soviets--June 1941. And, although eventually winning sort of, Russia got brutally Molested at the hands of the Finns. Many simmers would enjoy simming earlier older Finnish Air Force aircraft. mmmm, the untapped or yet born Chinese market for flight sims comes to mind.

To mis~quote Khrushchev, Chinese flight simmers will Bury the American flight sim market. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif -- although most likely they might actually prefer Pacific too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Sat May 01 2004 at 08:21 AM.]

SkyChimp
05-01-2004, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
This is a conflict of monumental scale and to ignore "peripheral operations" just because they didn't invlove the Western Powers is to diminish the sacrifices and achievements of those brave men and women who fought for their countries.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one is ignoring it, and no one is "trying to diminish" anything. FB is the appropriate platform for the Japanese/Soviet conflict, not PF.

When there is so much to simulate that actually has to do with the Pacific war, why use resources to simulate a conflict that took place outside of the Pacific?

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/wildsig.jpg

BSS_Vidar
05-01-2004, 12:25 PM
I also tend to agree with Sky_Chimp. The Russo-Japanees conflict should be an add-on to FB. I think PF should concentrate primarily on Carrier Operations and Bombing Campaigns with the major players of the PTO. I'ld love to see a Doolittles Raid Coop mission! And if carrier ops are boring to some of you, then you haven't lived yet. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Other than bombers, If it doesn't have a tailhook, it doesn't belong in PF.

BSS_Vidar

[This message was edited by BSS_Vidar on Sat May 01 2004 at 11:35 AM.]

LEXX_Luthor
05-01-2004, 12:30 PM
FP carriers will give us something to chew on like Baby Pacifier while Luthier or Oleg design their "Asia War" sim including carriers operations coded in from scratch. To suggest FP limited to pure carrier operations when the FP engine (basically FB engine) is coded for land based operations is a sign of a sloppy flight simmer. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SkyChimp:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>FB is the appropriate platform for the Japanese/Soviet conflict, not FP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Then FB is the appropriate platform for AVG Flying Tigers and Burma Road and the entire Burma and Malay conflict (South China Sea), not FP.

There is that "china" again, always seems to pop up in talk about WW2 Japanese operations

So Singapore should or should not be in "Pacific." That's a tough one.

You see the problem here, what to call "Pacific" and what not to call "Pacific." The creation of artificial boundaries, and calling them "natural." For a pure USA National flight sim without any other nations except Japan, I can understand the desire to do this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>why use resources to simulate a conflict that took place outside of the Pacific?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>FB and FP should be compatible, so the only resources needed are a few early Japanese planes, such as the ones the AVG met.

http://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/kopfpatsch.gif SkyChimp:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...and were prosecuted against ill-equipped and depleted Japanese armies, with next to no air-engagements<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We still have not talked about this one yet. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Sat May 01 2004 at 11:38 AM.]

SkyChimp
05-01-2004, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Then FB is the appropriate platform for AVG Flying Tigers and Burma Road and the entire Burma and Malay conflict (South China Sea), not FP.

There is that "china" again, always seems to pop up in talk about WW2 Japanese operations

So Singapore should or should not be in "Pacific." That's a tough one.

You see the problem here, what to call "Pacific" and what not to call "Pacific." The creation of artificial boundaries, and calling them "natural." For a pure USA National flight sim without any other nations except Japan, I can understand the desire to do this.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why is FB the appropriate platform for these battles? Did the Russians fight in Burma? Malaya? Java? Singapore? Hong Kong?

And why would this just make for a US vs Japan sim? What about Thailand? India? Netherlands? Australia? New Zealand?

And why is there a problem on how to define the Pacific? The PTO was well defined, as the CBI.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
We still have not talked about this one yet.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wanna talk about it?

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/wildsig.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-01-2004, 03:28 PM
Chimp:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why is FB the appropriate platform for these battles? Did the Russians fight in Burma? Malaya? Java? Singapore? Hong Kong?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay, I was thinking you were considering these regions as apporpriate for FP "Pacific" sim. I was (choke) wrong. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Soviets flew against Japan in China.

AVG Flying Tigers flew against Japan in China.

Both Soviets and AVG (and US Navy) flew against the same Japanese pilots.

I don't know if you are willing to talk to me here beyond repeating the same USA Government labels like "PTO" or "CBI" over and over again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Defining the sim by US Government labels, we make the sim USA National flight sim only.

SkyChimp
05-01-2004, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Okay, I was thinking you were considering these regions as apporpriate for FP "Pacific" sim. I was (choke) wrong. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just want Russian planes in PF, don't you? Tell the truth now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Soviets flew against Japan in China.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Manchuria.

They also flew against them in the Kuriles and Korea.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
AVG Flying Tigers flew against Japan in China.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The US Navy fought German U-Boats off the US coast. The US Navy fought Japanese I-Boats off the US coast. Let's put German planes in the sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Both Soviets and AVG (and US Navy) flew against the same Japanese pilots.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the same time? In the same areas? For instance, when the 64th Sentai was fighting in Burma, where did they encounter Soviets?



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I don't know if you are willing to talk to me here beyond repeating the same USA Government labels like "PTO" or "CBI" over and over again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Defining the sim by US Government labels, we make the sim USA National flight sim _only_.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"US National flight sim _only_," huh? I suppose none of the other allies used these "labels," now did they? Lois Mountbatten would be shocked http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif. But I understand that you would want to blur the lines between the theaters.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/wildsig.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-01-2004, 04:00 PM
Okay, I admit it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Soviets flew inside China against Japan from 1937 to 1940. Your Manchuria thing was rather late, summer 1939.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>1940 was the last year during which Soviet volunteers participated in combat in China. At the end of 1939 and beginning of 1940 relations between the USSR and Chiang Kai-Shek began a new period of cooling. The official reason was that the Kuomintang had terminated military and material supply to the Communist 8th and New 4th Armies. There even occurred several military clashes opening a large breach in the united front anti-Japanese struggle. These did not exclude the use of aviation in the battles against the communist forces. When the Soviet volunteers left China they left behind all their equipment, including aircraft. Supply of aircraft, however, continued.

under "1940" ---&gt; http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/sino-japanese.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



SkyChimp:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Lois_Lane:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Both Soviets and AVG (and US Navy) flew against the same Japanese pilots.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> At the same time? [http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif] In the same areas? [http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif] For instance, when the 64th Sentai was fighting in Burma, where did they encounter Soviets?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chimp, you are struggling, writhing, with this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Soviets, AVG, and USN carrier pilots all flew against the same Japanese pilots.


------------------------------------------


A better way of thinking....

Germany (and Italy) as the "focus" of FB.

Japan as the "focus" of FP.

As they are regarded as the traditional aggressor nations of World War 2, any nation involved with them should be in the sim containing the aggressor nation. ie...USA should be in both FB and FP. As should Brit, Soviet, and French.

Now, as both sims should be 100% compatible (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif) mmm, there should be little problem of sharing resources (FMs, models, etc...)

However, Germany and Italy are more difficult cases to make for being in both FB and FP, although Chinese used He~111, from time to time. SkyChimp, if it helps, China used early Hawk III and many interesting western aircrafts before Soviets showed up 1937. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LEXX_Luthor
05-01-2004, 04:11 PM
Also, Luthier's USA carrier ops code could be used to sim The Meds--with Germany and Italy as the "focus" (but no Soviet planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif )

Some Brit carriers would be nice though.

ploughman
05-01-2004, 05:00 PM
Korolov...

The Marco Polo Bridge incident of July 7th, 1937 is generally accepted as the begining of Japan's war with China. The whole Manchuria thing preceded it (1931) but if you want to pin the thing down to a date then that's pretty much it.

SkyChimp
05-01-2004, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Okay, I admit it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HA! I knew it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/wildsig.jpg