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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:42 PM
Hi all,
I am not a real life pilot (I have only been in a plane threee-four times), so maybe i'm going to write stupid considerations; but this intrigues me from so long far (correct?).
The question: it seems very hard (to me) that a real WWII pilot could do (repeatedly) all those aerobatics we usually do in the game, without getting his stomach out from his ears.
This, if true (i really don't know) would affect the simulation this way: even if a plane was technically capable of very tight turns, rolls, etc. actually it didn't do them (at least again and again) because of pilot limit; so would be much easier, compared to simulation, to shot down slow, very manoevrable planes with faster, less handly planes (try to shot down that polish a/c or a i15 with a Bf109 which, i suppose was superior).
Briefly: if this aspect is important, it influences fights as much as a correct FM.
Any consideration?

Hope this long msg is clear enough http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:42 PM
Hi all,
I am not a real life pilot (I have only been in a plane threee-four times), so maybe i'm going to write stupid considerations; but this intrigues me from so long far (correct?).
The question: it seems very hard (to me) that a real WWII pilot could do (repeatedly) all those aerobatics we usually do in the game, without getting his stomach out from his ears.
This, if true (i really don't know) would affect the simulation this way: even if a plane was technically capable of very tight turns, rolls, etc. actually it didn't do them (at least again and again) because of pilot limit; so would be much easier, compared to simulation, to shot down slow, very manoevrable planes with faster, less handly planes (try to shot down that polish a/c or a i15 with a Bf109 which, i suppose was superior).
Briefly: if this aspect is important, it influences fights as much as a correct FM.
Any consideration?

Hope this long msg is clear enough http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 11:11 PM
The game does simulate them, high G turns result in you greying out and eventually blacking out, that is simulated by the picture going dark in the cockpit, this is the blood being forced away from the brain, and can be reduced by doing certain muscle squeezing exercises similar to when you go to errm the toilet, modern aircraft use G suits that squeeze the lower extremities ie waist and below to reduce this, its pretty uncomfortable, or i found it to be. the F16 also tilts the seat back on about a 30 degree angle as well, this raises the lower point of the body and increases the tolerance to it.

Negative G is simulated by red outs, ie the veiw turning red, that is caused by blood being forced into the brain which ruptures small blood vessels, not nice, i found that the worst as it results in your lunch having a desire to re vist your mouth /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 11:13 PM
since quick full use of elevator and alierons doesnt loose thier effectiveness like real wwii aircraft along with no overstressing of of the fuselage, player movement will always be very arcadish. Another thing is the different blackout levels each plane has at the same speed in the same turn, there needs to be a G's meter and pilots get effected from a certain ammount of G's unlike how the game is now that each aircraft has a different blackout setting

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 11:51 PM
I've heard this term often: (although not for awhile)

Fighter pilot's breakfast:

Coffee, cigarette, candy bar and a good puke.


wbuttler

"there is no spoon."

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 07:07 PM
Fighter pilots in real life did have one advantage that we don't: Breathing pure oxygen helps you get over a hangover. It's true! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 07:39 PM
In WWII, pilots did not have the G-suits that modern pilots use, though modern fighter aircraft are capable of pulling much higher G-forces than those in WWII.
So much so that the aircraft are generally capable of performance beyond what can be tolerated by humans, regardless of conditioning or tech aids.

Withstanding G-forces is somewhat different than motion-induced sickness, which has more to do with zero-g manuevers. Resistance to this is primarily a matter of conditioning, and healthy inner ears!

Modern aerobatic pilots perform far more stressful and complex manuevers than WWII aircraft were capable of, and they don't use G-suits.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 08:32 PM
Speaking of inner ear...

I really like the realism of the blackout and redout phenomena - the simulation is close enough to the real experience to adequately represent it's direct effect on tactical situations.

On the other hand, inner ear problems aren't really something you can simulate realistically. Your vestibular system (your body's balance and motion sensing) is too complex to model. It's rigged for earthbound activity, and gives you lot of strange cues induced by maneuvering in flight. Too many variables come into play. Assuming you do have a healty inner ear, and don't have some predisposition for motion sickness, does that matter? Would they be a problem most of the time? Not really; as a pilot you are trained to recognize and compensate for the false 'balance cues' that your inner ear gives you while you are flying.

Other than an unrealistically excessive amount of continuous g pulling in the game (which goes with committing to tactical situations that IRL you wouldn't do unless you had a death wish..) and some extremely disorienting low level defensive maneuvering (hey, some of you wacky 190 drivers out there, hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , I think the sim has a really sweet balance to it.

Barfly
Executive Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 02:41 PM
I have spent the past 6 years as a navy pilot. In flight school I knew a handful of guys who got sick, some occasionaly, some often. All of them eventually got over it as they accrued more hours. I puked myself once in an out of control flight in a T-2 Buckeye where we were doing some crazy maneuvers. By the time a pilot reached the front in FB he would not have any airsickness issues and nothing would be gained by modeling that.

On a similar issue, based on my experience, I think that the g black out is entirely overmodeled in this game. I don't know what the g limits of a typical ww2 fighter were, or how often they could even reach the limit. I often pull up to 7.5gs in real life and never experience anything close to what the game models. Granted, the 'combat edge' g suit is supposed to save about a g and a half.

XyZspineZyX
06-22-2003, 04:07 PM
huggy87 wrote:
- I puked myself once in an out of control flight in a
- T-2 Buckeye where we were doing some crazy
- maneuvers.

I would be an ACM four-bagger.
Could never do that for a living...

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:37 AM
hi huggy87,

as a practicing pilot you might be able to give some decent reply to my queries.

i fly small passanger planes and very often - if the weather is bumpy, turbulent my passangers get sick. mostly in the back seat. the one who sits next to me (C172) hardly ever gets sick. is there any way to alleviate thei sufferings other than opening the window and directing them to take deep breaths?

i heard werner m√¬∂lders had kinophobia as well and yet he managed to down 114 airplanes and made a very successful pilot.

how the hell did he do it?

does more flying actually help?

i feel the clue is if you are piloting the plane, you know what will happen and therefore dont get motionsick..

thankx

plébános

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:42 AM
more interesting to me is the performance of the IL2 rear gunners

they seem capable of sniping a fast moving target at long range while upside down, or in a flat spin or even from a burning aircraft in a death dive.


These guys have iron stomaches and know no fear http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:04 AM
G sensitivity is to some extent depending on plane. The reason is simply one of how you sit. The more upright you sit, the more sensitive you are, the more leaned back you are, the better G tolerance you have.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:09 AM
@Plebanos--this weekend had exactly the same xperience--C-172, backseat passenger on the first small airplane flight, some turbulence and bingo "where's the puke bag" :-) however, the other guy in the backseat who's a pilot himself had no problems at all... So the answer to your question interests me as well.



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Message Edited on 06/23/0308:10AM by PE_Tigar

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:13 AM
Tigar, do we live close to eachother that had the same strong winds this weekend?

I fly at LHUD. and you?

"Der ganze Revierkreis muss total schwarz sein"

Erich Hartmann

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:36 AM
The tendency to get nauseated in a plane is similar to (the same as?) that of getting sick in a car. Some are very sensitive, some are not sensitive at all. Some, like me, handle it well unless they try to read in a car. Most of those who get nauseated when riding with someone do not have problems when they are in control themselves.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:44 AM
Well perhaps the pilots general physical shape does have an influence. Take F1 drivers for an example - they pull maybe 5 or 6 Gs in a turn & there are many turns! They must be in a good shape to last a race.

S!

M0NS



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My garage!

Tully__
06-23-2003, 10:03 AM
huggy87 wrote:
- On a similar issue, based on my experience, I think
- that the g black out is entirely overmodeled in this
- game. I don't know what the g limits of a typical
- ww2 fighter were, or how often they could even reach
- the limit. I often pull up to 7.5gs in real life
- and never experience anything close to what the game
- models. Granted, the 'combat edge' g suit is
- supposed to save about a g and a half.
-
-



In WW2 "G-straining" was a black art, not part of routine training (at least not until late in the war anyway). The average WW2 pilot could take about 5G without blacking out. Clearly it varied a bit from pilot to pilot, an extreme example being Douglas Bader who had no lower extremities for blood to pool in (both legs amputated in a pre-war accident). As far as the sim is concerned, the 5-6G blackout point that is modelled fairly closely represents what most pilots were capable of handling at the time.

In the 5-10 years from 1944, huge strides were made in G-resistance for pilots, with the west developing more sophisticated G-suits and the east concentrating more on choosing pilots for natural G-resistance then training in straining techniques. The end result was the same, with top fighter pilots on both sides now able to take 9G for up to 30 seconds and 6-7G almost indefinitely (in combat terms anyway).


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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:22 AM
PE_Tigar wrote:
- @Plebanos--this weekend had exactly the same
- xperience--C-172, backseat passenger on the first
- small airplane flight, some turbulence and bingo
- "where's the puke bag" :-) however, the other guy in
- the backseat who's a pilot himself had no problems
- at all... So the answer to your question interests
- me as well.
-

Its the reason airlines limit turns to 5-10 degrees max and part of the reason jets became so popular for commercial transport - they fly above the turbulence.

In my early flight training simple turns steeper than 30 degrees made me feel quite ill after 5 to 10 minutes.

Now a 30 degree turn seems normal and even 60 degree or more do not effect me.

You get used to it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 03:24 PM
Well, Its not the stomach you have but how well you can control what your body is wrongly telling to you regarding outside motion...( im not sure if the translation is OK) I flew tourists over the desert of Nasca In Peru, and at noon to three in the afternoon the turbulence can be considered moderate to extreme, and you are turning low and slow left and right so the passengers can take pictures from the figures drawn on the desert floor, I have seen more vomit bags coming out of that little C206 than you will ever believe, ( including two cocky Israeli F15 drivers..they left the plane green colored and kissed the ground after the 1/2 hour ride) although I never felt sick during those turns at Va while seeing the VSI jumping up and down and out of the instrument panel. most of people told me they were disoriented and powerless to control their stomachs...it has to do with the movement of the fluid in the inner ear, something that most of people dont have the experience to overcome ( vertigo someone?), also is related to the ammount of attention you put into some activity, as the flying pilot you know what you are doing ( at least most of the time..he he) and your mind knows what to expect while doing it. and that gives you control over what you might feel during rapid changes in heading and altitude.

I

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 05:57 PM
I've had only 5 lessons, but it seemed that my disorientation and mild nausea lessened the more I went up.

Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

"Be happy in your work!"
- Col. Saito

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 09:06 PM
rosaenrico wrote:
- Hi all,

- The question: it seems very hard (to me) that a real
- WWII pilot could do (repeatedly) all those
- aerobatics we usually do in the game, without
- getting his stomach out from his ears.
-------------------------------------

U have to be "aclimated"?= get used to g forces.The more u fly the better.
Im not a real pilot but ive taken the "stick " few times flying. once I asked an instructor in an arobatics glider if he could do some hard manouvering for a while.(he did)
after a few min he made hard spiraling turns down to the field(forgot to watch hight and g:s)it took a while though.
(didnt feel too good) I could not keep flying after those minutes (5-6 or so).
Afterwards the instructor told me that u normaly dont pull that hard on gliders,but that one was special in some way.
(dont remember how) and he used to do that spiral and direct landing, on display.
-----------------------

I wonder how many young pilots died because they werent
used to, and didnt ,pull max G:s

(Happy to be flying on the twilightzone)

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 02:39 AM
Ginger snaps. Pass them out as soon as you meet up for the flight. They do you no good eating them once your up, but an hour or two before. Also, tell them they prevent airsickness, double whammy, placebo effect as well. Always worked for me, even when everyone around was heaving and the stink was overwhelming, never lost the cookies.